On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:53:50 +0100, Janet Baraclough
 wrote:

>The message 
>from  contains these words:
>
>> Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>> > The vaccine is not  produced by Tamiflu is it?
>
>> Oops, good point.  But I think the point still stands, if the names are
>> a little different.  :-P
>
>> >>Of course, when we're all dying in a few weeks time, I'll accept the
>> >>obvious humble pie as a last meal ...
>> > Haven't more than 70 people died of swine flu in UK already?
>> > MMR vaccine all over again?
>
>> I don't think it's the same thing.  Measles had a devastating affect on
>> a lot of children over the years.  70 deaths from swine flu is probably
>> not much higher than normal 'seasonal' flu death toll. 
>
>   The UK swine flu fatality figure is 128, not 70 . More than half,
>were age below 45.  In Scotland today, four  died in one day.
>   The number of  new swine flu cases  this week, is double  the number
>last week.

I got the figure of more than 70 from a BBC news programme.
-- 

Martin

"Martin" ha scritto nel messaggio
 Janet Baraclough wrote:

>>> > Haven't more than 70 people died of swine flu in UK already?>>> > MMR 
>>> > vaccine all over again?
>>
>>> I don't think it's the same thing.  Measles had a devastating affect on
>>> a lot of children over the years.  70 deaths from swine flu is 
>>> probably>>> not much higher than normal 'seasonal' flu death toll.
>>
>>   The UK swine flu fatality figure is 128, not 70 . More than half,>>were 
>> age below 45.  In Scotland today, four  died in one day.>>   The number 
>> of  new swine flu cases  this week, is double  the number
>>last week.
>
> I got the figure of more than 70 from a BBC news programme.

And it is STILL not flu season, which is gemnerally from sometime in 
December until March.  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
will become.

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:48:00 +0200, "Giusi"  wrote:

>
>"Martin" ha scritto nel messaggio
> Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
>>>> > Haven't more than 70 people died of swine flu in UK already?>>> > MMR 
>>>> > vaccine all over again?
>>>
>>>> I don't think it's the same thing.  Measles had a devastating affect on
>>>> a lot of children over the years.  70 deaths from swine flu is 
>>>> probably>>> not much higher than normal 'seasonal' flu death toll.
>>>
>>>   The UK swine flu fatality figure is 128, not 70 . More than half,>>were 
>>> age below 45.  In Scotland today, four  died in one day.>>   The number 
>>> of  new swine flu cases  this week, is double  the number
>>>last week.
>>
>> I got the figure of more than 70 from a BBC news programme.
>
>And it is STILL not flu season, which is gemnerally from sometime in 
>December until March.  

I called that winter :o)

>The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
>will become. 

It is strange how many claim to have caught it in UK and Germany and how few
have caught it in The Netherlands. In the NHS trust where a close relative works
in England only one of the many claiming to have caught it actually had it.
-- 

Martin

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:48:00 +0200, Giusi wrote in post :
<news:7kd8u3F38uadhU1@mid.individual.net> :

>  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
> will become.

But you can't tell the difference between the carriers and those that have
been vaccinated as they both have antibodies. I propose killing everybody
to make sure it doesn't spread.    ;-)

-- 
Tim C.

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:12:10 +0200, Martin wrote in post :
<news:hls2e5960mc5nu0bs2dlevfqh01o18n2u9@4ax.com> :

> It is strange how many claim to have caught it in UK and Germany and how few
> have caught it in The Netherlands. In the NHS trust where a close relative works
> in England only one of the many claiming to have caught it actually had it.

I suspect the doctor says, 
"It's not the normal flu season, so it can't be normal flu. It must
therefore be swine-flu". I wonder how the relative number of each flu will
turn out to be when the normal season is over. 
-- 
Tim C.

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:20:29 +0200, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:12:10 +0200, Martin wrote in post :
><news:hls2e5960mc5nu0bs2dlevfqh01o18n2u9@4ax.com> :
>
>> It is strange how many claim to have caught it in UK and Germany and how few
>> have caught it in The Netherlands. In the NHS trust where a close relative works
>> in England only one of the many claiming to have caught it actually had it.
>
>I suspect the doctor says, 
>"It's not the normal flu season, so it can't be normal flu. It must
>therefore be swine-flu". I wonder how the relative number of each flu will
>turn out to be when the normal season is over. 

In the NHS Trust samples were analysed to determine if the staff member/patient
had swine flu.
-- 

Martin

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:18:46 +0200, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:48:00 +0200, Giusi wrote in post :
><news:7kd8u3F38uadhU1@mid.individual.net> :
>
>>  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
>> will become.
>
>But you can't tell the difference between the carriers and those that have
>been vaccinated as they both have antibodies. I propose killing everybody
>to make sure it doesn't spread.    ;-)

A typical Austrian solution :)
-- 

Martin

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:38:18 +0200, Martin wrote in post :
<news:5s13e5tct8f0i9volreprtg4ipcn5ndph3@4ax.com> :

> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:18:46 +0200, "Tim C."  wrote:
> 
>>On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:48:00 +0200, Giusi wrote in post :
>><news:7kd8u3F38uadhU1@mid.individual.net> :
>>
>>>  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
>>> will become.
>>
>>But you can't tell the difference between the carriers and those that have
>>been vaccinated as they both have antibodies. I propose killing everybody
>>to make sure it doesn't spread.    ;-)
> 
> A typical Austrian solution :)
   
 
British Foot and Mouth reaction :-)
-- 
Tim C.

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:21:22 +0100, Janet Baraclough
 wrote:

>The message 
>from Martin <me@address.invalid> contains these words:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:53:50 +0100, Janet Baraclough
>>  wrote:
>
>> >   The UK swine flu fatality figure is 128, not 70 . More than half,
>> >were age below 45.  In Scotland today, four  died in one day.
>> >   The number of  new swine flu cases  this week, is double  the number
>> >last week.
>
>> I got the figure of more than 70 from a BBC news programme.
>
>   Maybe it was a little  while ago?

This week on Tuesday or Wednesday

>
>  The BBC here, is broadcasting the new figures daily from DOH information.
>
>  Janet
-- 

Martin

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:08:57 +0100, Janet Baraclough
 wrote:

>The message 
>from Martin <me@address.invalid> contains these words:
>
>> It is strange how many claim to have caught it in UK and Germany and how few
>> have caught it in The Netherlands.
>
> According to the Dutch Institute of  Health


>
>http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-teenager-dies-h1n1
>
><quote>
>
>" In the past week the numbers of people being admitted to hospital with
>H1N1 has doubled. Most of them are younger than 65. This week, the
>incidence was highest among babies and toddlers. Previous weeks have
>shown a peak in hospital admissions among 15 to 24 year-olds. However
>the group most in need of intensive care were the 5 to 14-year-olds."

"An official epidemic is reported when doctors see more than 55 people in two
consecutive weeks with the disease out of every 100,000 people in the
Netherlands. Health institute Nivel, which helped compile the figures, says
between 5 and 11 October doctors saw 69 cases per 100,000 people, and the same
number in the next week."

http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/healthtopics/Documents/091023_Influenza_AH1N1_Situation_Report_0900hrs.pdf
There are currently 24 patients with H1N1 in Dutch hopsitals including 4 in
intensive care. The equivalent figure for England with around 3 times the
population is 506 and 99. 
"Data includes all probable cases for England only. Does not include Scotland
(380 cumulative hospitalisations), Wales (126) and Northern Ireland (346)." 
http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/healthtopics/Documents/091023_Influenza_AH1N1_Situation_Report_0900hrs.pdf


In the summer when tens of thousands were supposed to have the flu in UK and
Germany the figure in NL was a bit over a thousand I think that figure was later
greatly reduced. 

>
>> In the NHS trust where a close relative works
>> in England only one of the many claiming to have caught it actually had it.
>
> The official figures in the UK , are cases diagnosed by doctors and
>deaths certified by doctors.  Nothing to do with patients
>self-diagnosis. 

I thought that in UK there is a hotline for self diagnosis to avoid doctors
being swamped by patients claiming to have the flu. 
I was referring to hospital staff in an NHS Trust, who claimed to have the flu.
-- 

Martin

Giusi wrote:
> "Martin" ha scritto nel messaggio
>  Janet Baraclough wrote:
> 
>>>>> Haven't more than 70 people died of swine flu in UK already?>>> > MMR 
>>>>> vaccine all over again?
>>>> I don't think it's the same thing.  Measles had a devastating affect on
>>>> a lot of children over the years.  70 deaths from swine flu is 
>>>> probably>>> not much higher than normal 'seasonal' flu death toll.
>>>   The UK swine flu fatality figure is 128, not 70 . More than half,>>were 
>>> age below 45.  In Scotland today, four  died in one day.>>   The number 
>>> of  new swine flu cases  this week, is double  the number
>>> last week.
>> I got the figure of more than 70 from a BBC news programme.
> 
> And it is STILL not flu season, which is gemnerally from sometime in 
> December until March.  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
> will become. 

But isn't the fact that we can carry it, means that we can get our 
bodies to defend against it?

There was a thread in another news group, a couple of years ago, that 
was going down the road of the policy of kitchen surface cleaners.

The proposal was, that kitchen cleaners that killed 99% of germs were good.

The answer that came back from a bio chemist was...

The ability to kill 99% of germs means that the 1% left were the super 
germs that had no competition left, so they could breed quicker. By 
leaving the normal germs, the super germs had to fight for life to 
exist, let alone to procreate.

Leave the normal germs there and the super germs will be stifled.

Dave

Tim C. wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:38:18 +0200, Martin wrote in post :
> <news:5s13e5tct8f0i9volreprtg4ipcn5ndph3@4ax.com> :
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:18:46 +0200, "Tim C."  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:48:00 +0200, Giusi wrote in post :
>>> <news:7kd8u3F38uadhU1@mid.individual.net> :
>>>
>>>>  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers 
>>>> will become.
>>> But you can't tell the difference between the carriers and those that have
>>> been vaccinated as they both have antibodies. I propose killing everybody
>>> to make sure it doesn't spread.    ;-)
>> A typical Austrian solution :)
>    
>  
> British Foot and Mouth reaction :-)

I see there is no argument against that  :-))

Dave

"Dave"  ha scritto nel messaggio
> Giusi wrote:
  The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers
>> will become.
>
> But isn't the fact that we can carry it, means that we can get our > 
> bodies to defend against it?

I mean merely that almost all of the people carrying this virus and capable 
of passing it on to you are sick with that flu and don't know it yet.  Kids 
go to school infected, people go to work infected, people go shopping 
infected.

You cannot apply anything you know about bacteria to virus.

In article ,
   Giusi  wrote:

> "Dave"  ha scritto nel messaggio
> > Giusi wrote:
>   The more who can carry it, the worse those numbers
> >> will become.
> >
> > But isn't the fact that we can carry it, means that we can get our > 
> > bodies to defend against it?

> I mean merely that almost all of the people carrying this virus and capable 
> of passing it on to you are sick with that flu and don't know it yet.  Kids 
> go to school infected, people go to work infected, people go shopping 
> infected.

> You cannot apply anything you know about bacteria to virus. 

Yes. You are infected - and <infectious> - without knowing it and the more
people around you in that condition the higher the virus level you are in.

The point about H1N1 is not that it is a bad flu but that it is spreading
in a large proportion of the world ( can't remember the proportion that
defines a "pandemic" but H1N1 comes within it). Actually, IAGTU that as flu
types go it is not a very serious one; the main problem is (apart from the
high virus load mentioned above) that if a lot of people get it all at the
same time then our facilities are going to become seriously undermanned and
will not be able to provide the service we need. As far as "being a killer"
is concerned, yes H1N1 <will> cause some deaths; all "'flus" do; being a
pandemic does not mean that it will cause more deaths than others and being
a mild flu it may actually cause less deaths amongst those who actually
contract it.

Vaccination is a different mechanism from using an antivirus drug. The drug
will certainly tend to kill off vulnerable viruses first leaving the more
resistant ones viable for longer so if you don't take the full course of
treatment you <will> be setting up a collection of resistant viruses - one
of the possible results with the way Tamiflu has been doled out without,
IMV, adequate medical assessment - and H1N1 being a mild flu people will
stop taking it as soon as they feel better without finishing the course. I
don't think that happens with vaccination which is a way of getting your
own body to, as you put it, "defend against it".

Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.

Cheers
Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

"Jane Gillett"  wrote in message 
news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.

Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?

"Ophelia"  wrote in message 
news:7kl4v6F3aa6o6U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
> news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts 
>> me
>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>
> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?

Not here. I expect to "be called" before too long as I fall into one of the 
"higher risk" groups. I've been having the "normal" flu jab for several 
years and not had a problem.

'Flu is pretty grim, I've had "real flu" a few times and it isn't pleasant- 
way beyond a "heavy cold" etc.

Brian

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:

>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett  said:
>
>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Jane
>
>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on 
>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2 
>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will be 
>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70, 
>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.

Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a free
vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent €200 million on
buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours this week
and again two weeks after.
-- 

Martin

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:05:29 -0000, "Ophelia"  wrote:

>
>"Jane Gillett"  wrote in message 
>news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>
>Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine? 
>

Certainly not the WHO despite somebody in UK spreading rumours that the WHO does
have qualms.
-- 

Martin

"Ophelia"  ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so 
>> that>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic 
>> puts me
>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early 
>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>
> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?

Not one bit.  I am extremely sensitive to the egg base and it hurts like the 
dickens, but it's worth it to me.

"Martin"  ha scritto nel messaggio
 Sacha  wrote:

first in line for available vaccines will be
>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70, as 
>>he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>
> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a free 
> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200 
> million on
> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours this 
> week> and again two weeks after.

I'm glad to hear this, because a Netherlander is couchsurfing here in a few 
weeks!  I thought the basic who schedule was set by the EU, and the 
individual countries set the when schedule.  According to the EU there will 
be vaccine for every person in the EU.

The main push in Italy seems to be denial that there's anything different 
going on and a silly ad starring Topo Gigio telling you to not touch your 
eyes and nose, wash hands and open the windows occasionally.  Unfortunately 
these play mostly late at night when kids are asleep, although maybe Italian 
adults like that approach?

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:22:44 +0100, "Giusi"  wrote:

>
>"Ophelia"  ha scritto nel messaggio
>> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so 
>>> that>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic 
>>> puts me
>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early 
>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>
>> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?
>
>Not one bit.  I am extremely sensitive to the egg base and it hurts like the 
>dickens, but it's worth it to me. 

According to the Dutch press, enough vaccine has been bought in NL for a
population twice the size of the Netherlands. I'm not sure if the press are
confusing number of shots bought with the need for two shots for each person.
The government's advisor also has a 10% stake in the company providing the
vaccine, but he denies this influenced his advice.
-- 

Martin

Following up to Brian Reay 

> 'Flu is pretty grim, I've had "real flu" a few times and it isn't pleasant- 
> way beyond a "heavy cold" etc.

perhaps a small benefit of swine flu will be people no longer talking about
colds as anything like flu.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Judith in France  wrote:
> Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
> hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
> refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
> I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
> fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
> a dead one, into my body.

Shall I make you up a seat over in the paranoia corner with me?
I can make tea and cake and we can exchange stories about chickens.

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 04:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Judith in France
 wrote:

>On Oct 26, 8:05 am, "Ophelia"  wrote:
>> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>>
>> > Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
>> > puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
>> > up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>> > ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>
>> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?
>
>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>a dead one, into my body.

Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
-- 

Martin

On 26 Oct 2009 11:14:06 GMT,  wrote:

>Judith in France  wrote:
>> Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>> hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>> refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>> I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>> fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>> a dead one, into my body.
>
>Shall I make you up a seat over in the paranoia corner with me?
>I can make tea and cake and we can exchange stories about chickens.

and bird flu caught from silly cluckers? :o)
-- 

Martin

Following up to Tim C. 

>>>But you can't tell the difference between the carriers and those that have
>>>been vaccinated as they both have antibodies. I propose killing everybody
>>>to make sure it doesn't spread.    ;-)
>> 
>> A typical Austrian solution :)
>    
>  
> British Foot and Mouth reaction :-)

to be fair not just UK approach. 

a) we have eliminated a disease, excellent.
b) theres an outbreak
c) KILL EVERYTHING because we declared it was eliminated.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>>hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>>refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>>I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>>fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>>a dead one, into my body.
> 
> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?

Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.

On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  wrote:

>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>>>hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>>>refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>>>I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>>>fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>>>a dead one, into my body.
>> 
>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>
>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.

Hopefully not *soon*.

I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
-- 

Martin

"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:ca8be5d4pmu265990okb7gqs1sqtg66g8s@4ax.com...
> On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  wrote:
>
>>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>>>>hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>>>>refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>>>>I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>>>>fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>>>>a dead one, into my body.
>>>
>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>>
>>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
>
> Hopefully not *soon*.
>
> I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
> If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
> religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
> -- 
And smallpox!
AIUI, "vaccinate" is a word specifically for smallpox.  "Inoculate" is for 
all the other diseases.  Funny how language developes.
Graham

"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:gepae51b86l4726q0ft8orctatbe3lmgj4@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:
>
>>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett  
>>said:
>>
>>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance 
>>> so that
>>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts 
>>> me
>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Jane
>>
>>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on
>>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2
>>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will be
>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70,
>>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>
> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a free
> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200 
> million on
> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours this 
> week
> and again two weeks after.
> -- 
Our clinics open this morning.  I shan't go today as the lines will stretch 
round the block.  I'll go later this week.
Graham

Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
> If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
> religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.

I think there's a difference between vaccinating against potentially
life-threatening and life-altering diseases such as polio, smallpox,
rubella, etc and against vaccinating against relatively trivial diseases
such as flu.

I'm in no way saying don't vaccinate against anything.  My kids have
both had their full sets of vaccines.  I just worry about the over-
medication of the world, adding more and more random chemicals to people
and giving their immune systems no reason to learn to kick in.

Consider the over-use of antibiotics, for an example.  (A different
case, obviously, but a similar over-medicating for the sake of it
causing unexpected problems in the long term)

"Giusi"  wrote in message 
news:7klbjrF3a16bvU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Ophelia"  ha scritto nel messaggio
>> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so 
>>> that>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being 
>>> diabetic puts me
>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early 
>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>
>> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?
>
> Not one bit.  I am extremely sensitive to the egg base and it hurts like 
> the dickens, but it's worth it to me.
My elderly neighbour is the same.  She goes twice for a 1/2 dose each time.
Graham

"graham"  wrote in message 
news:nBhFm.40824$EU5.7521@newsfe05.iad...
>
> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:gepae51b86l4726q0ft8orctatbe3lmgj4@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:
>>
>>>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett  
>>>said:
>>>
>>>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance 
>>>> so that
>>>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts 
>>>> me
>>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the 
>>>> early
>>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jane
>>>
>>>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on
>>>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2
>>>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will be
>>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70,
>>>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>>
>> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a free
>> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200 
>> million on
>> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours this 
>> week
>> and again two weeks after.
>> -- 
> Our clinics open this morning.  I shan't go today as the lines will 
> stretch round the block.  I'll go later this week.
> Graham
Just heard on the radio.  The clinics open at 8:30 so the CBC sent a 
reporter to check the line-up at 6am.  He found one man who had arrived at 
4am who, when asked why he got there so early, replied that he didn't like 
waiting in line-ups!
Graham

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:20:46 +0100, Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:

>On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  wrote:
>
>>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>>>>hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>>>>refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>>>>I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>>>>fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>>>>a dead one, into my body.
>>> 
>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>>
>>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
>
>Hopefully not *soon*.
>
>I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
>If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
>religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.

The polio vaccine was tested for many years on many people as a
possible cure before it became a preventative about 10 years later.
The H1N1 has only been tested on a few people for a few months. That's
why many people think it may be risky.

Steve

-- 
Neural Planner Software Ltd                  www.NPSL1.com

"Stephen Wolstenholme"  wrote in message
news:48abe59qjifcg4009hnkgphd793du002uh@4ax.com...
> The polio vaccine was tested for many years on many people as a
> possible cure before it became a preventative about 10 years later.
> The H1N1 has only been tested on a few people for a few months. That's
> why many people think it may be risky.

That is my concern, which is why I am asking.  I am in the high risk 
category, having chronic asthma.  I have had the seasonal flu jag for many 
years but I am a bit wary about this new one.

On 26 Oct 2009 13:36:58 GMT,  wrote:

>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>> I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
>> If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
>> religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
>
>I think there's a difference between vaccinating against potentially
>life-threatening and life-altering diseases such as polio, smallpox,
>rubella, etc and against vaccinating against relatively trivial diseases
>such as flu.
>
>I'm in no way saying don't vaccinate against anything.  My kids have
>both had their full sets of vaccines.  I just worry about the over-
>medication of the world, adding more and more random chemicals to people
>and giving their immune systems no reason to learn to kick in.

The last time I was vaccinated was in 1987 before a trip to South America and
before that in the 1970s against yellow fever before a trip to the Far East. I
don't think I am over doing it.

>
>Consider the over-use of antibiotics, for an example.  (A different
>case, obviously, but a similar over-medicating for the sake of it
>causing unexpected problems in the long term)

In the Netherlands they under did antibiotics, resulting in lots of deafness and
semi deafness as a result of ear infections. I'm a victim of that too.
-- 

Martin

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:55:13 +0000, Stephen Wolstenholme
 wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:20:46 +0100, Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  wrote:
>>
>>>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in a
>>>>>hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year.  I
>>>>>refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I resisted.
>>>>>I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I have deep set
>>>>>fears which may be totally irrational but I won't put a virus, albeit
>>>>>a dead one, into my body.
>>>> 
>>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>>>
>>>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
>>
>>Hopefully not *soon*.
>>
>>I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
>>If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
>>religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
>
>The polio vaccine was tested for many years on many people as a
>possible cure before it became a preventative about 10 years later.

50 years ago.

>The H1N1 has only been tested on a few people for a few months. That's
>why many people think it may be risky.

WHO don't think it's risky. Do you know something they don't?
-- 

Martin

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:54:32 -0600, "graham"  wrote:

>
>"graham"  wrote in message 
>news:nBhFm.40824$EU5.7521@newsfe05.iad...
>>
>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
>> news:gepae51b86l4726q0ft8orctatbe3lmgj4@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett  
>>>>said:
>>>>
>>>>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance 
>>>>> so that
>>>>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts 
>>>>> me
>>>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the 
>>>>> early
>>>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Jane
>>>>
>>>>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on
>>>>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2
>>>>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will be
>>>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70,
>>>>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>>>
>>> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a free
>>> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200 
>>> million on
>>> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours this 
>>> week
>>> and again two weeks after.
>>> -- 
>> Our clinics open this morning.  I shan't go today as the lines will 
>> stretch round the block.  I'll go later this week.
>> Graham
>Just heard on the radio.  The clinics open at 8:30 so the CBC sent a 
>reporter to check the line-up at 6am.  He found one man who had arrived at 
>4am who, when asked why he got there so early, replied that he didn't like 
>waiting in line-ups!

I usually turn up late, because I don't like sitting around in a waiting rooms
with a bunch of unhealthy people
-- 

Martin

"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:umlbe5tlv2v6fkn3f5ljantd3n4b93uveu@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:54:32 -0600, "graham"  wrote:
>
>>
>>"graham"  wrote in message
>>news:nBhFm.40824$EU5.7521@newsfe05.iad...
>>>
>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:gepae51b86l4726q0ft8orctatbe3lmgj4@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett 
>>>>>
>>>>>said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual 
>>>>>> resistance
>>>>>> so that
>>>>>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic 
>>>>>> puts
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the
>>>>>> early
>>>>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Jane
>>>>>
>>>>>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on
>>>>>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2
>>>>>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will be
>>>>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70,
>>>>>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>>>>
>>>> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a 
>>>> free
>>>> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200
>>>> million on
>>>> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours 
>>>> this
>>>> week
>>>> and again two weeks after.
>>>> -- 
>>> Our clinics open this morning.  I shan't go today as the lines will
>>> stretch round the block.  I'll go later this week.
>>> Graham
>>Just heard on the radio.  The clinics open at 8:30 so the CBC sent a
>>reporter to check the line-up at 6am.  He found one man who had arrived at
>>4am who, when asked why he got there so early, replied that he didn't like
>>waiting in line-ups!
>
> I usually turn up late, because I don't like sitting around in a waiting 
> rooms
> with a bunch of unhealthy people
> -- 
The newscasts say there is something of the order of a 2 hour wait at the 
moment.
Graham

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:50:19 -0600, "graham"  wrote:

>
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:umlbe5tlv2v6fkn3f5ljantd3n4b93uveu@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:54:32 -0600, "graham"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"graham"  wrote in message
>>>news:nBhFm.40824$EU5.7521@newsfe05.iad...
>>>>
>>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:gepae51b86l4726q0ft8orctatbe3lmgj4@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual 
>>>>>>> resistance
>>>>>>> so that
>>>>>>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic 
>>>>>>> puts
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the
>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Jane
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on
>>>>>>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2
>>>>>>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will be
>>>>>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 70,
>>>>>>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a 
>>>>> free
>>>>> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200
>>>>> million on
>>>>> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours 
>>>>> this
>>>>> week
>>>>> and again two weeks after.
>>>>> -- 
>>>> Our clinics open this morning.  I shan't go today as the lines will
>>>> stretch round the block.  I'll go later this week.
>>>> Graham
>>>Just heard on the radio.  The clinics open at 8:30 so the CBC sent a
>>>reporter to check the line-up at 6am.  He found one man who had arrived at
>>>4am who, when asked why he got there so early, replied that he didn't like
>>>waiting in line-ups!
>>
>> I usually turn up late, because I don't like sitting around in a waiting 
>> rooms
>> with a bunch of unhealthy people
>> -- 
>The newscasts say there is something of the order of a 2 hour wait at the 
>moment.

Better to turn up a day late like I normally do then. :o)
-- 

Martin

"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message 
news:ckobe5pl5abhthfd6b7onssds9hrl0vdl4@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:50:19 -0600, "graham"  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:umlbe5tlv2v6fkn3f5ljantd3n4b93uveu@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:54:32 -0600, "graham"  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"graham"  wrote in message
>>>>news:nBhFm.40824$EU5.7521@newsfe05.iad...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:gepae51b86l4726q0ft8orctatbe3lmgj4@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:35:00 +0000, Sacha  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 2009-10-25 13:19:04 +0000, Jane Gillett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snip>Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual
>>>>>>>> resistance
>>>>>>>> so that
>>>>>>>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic
>>>>>>>> puts
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the
>>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm 
>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Jane
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jane, we go to the surgery in Buckfastleigh and Ray went there on
>>>>>>>Saturday for his 'ordinary' flu jab.  Although he's 76 and has Type 2
>>>>>>>diabetes, he was told that first in line for available vaccines will 
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>pregnant women, health care workers and young children. People over 
>>>>>>>70,
>>>>>>>as he is, are right at the back of the queue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Amongst other groups everybody in the Netherlands over 60 can have a
>>>>>> free
>>>>>> vaccination against H1N1 virus. The Dutch government has spent ?200
>>>>>> million on
>>>>>> buying enough vaccine for every member o the population. We get ours
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> week
>>>>>> and again two weeks after.
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Our clinics open this morning.  I shan't go today as the lines will
>>>>> stretch round the block.  I'll go later this week.
>>>>> Graham
>>>>Just heard on the radio.  The clinics open at 8:30 so the CBC sent a
>>>>reporter to check the line-up at 6am.  He found one man who had arrived 
>>>>at
>>>>4am who, when asked why he got there so early, replied that he didn't 
>>>>like
>>>>waiting in line-ups!
>>>
>>> I usually turn up late, because I don't like sitting around in a waiting
>>> rooms
>>> with a bunch of unhealthy people
>>> -- 
>>The newscasts say there is something of the order of a 2 hour wait at the
>>moment.
>
> Better to turn up a day late like I normally do then. :o)
> -- 
I intend to go on Wednesday.
Graham

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:34:54 -0700 (PDT), CP 
wrote:

>On Oct 26, 8:05 am, "Ophelia"  wrote:
>> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>>
>> > Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
>> > puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
>> > up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>> > ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>>
>> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?
>
>Yes.
>This news report makes for interesting viewing:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0

Have you got a link to written facts that back up his rumours?
What was the bit about autism? Not MMR vaccine by any chance?
and the bit about the vaccine containing mercury?
-- 

Martin

"CP"  wrote in message 
news:fc6c00fc-58d3-4e15-b5bb-5fb1db22c7aa@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 26, 11:49 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:34:54 -0700 (PDT), CP 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Oct 26, 8:05 am, "Ophelia"  wrote:
> >> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>
> >>news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>
> >> > Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so 
> >> > that
> >> > puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic 
> >> > puts me
> >> > up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the 
> >> > early
> >> > ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>
> >> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?
>
> >Yes.
> >This news report makes for interesting viewing:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0
>
> Have you got a link to written facts that back up his rumours?
> What was the bit about autism? Not MMR vaccine by any chance?
> and the bit about the vaccine containing mercury?

http://www.profitableharm.com/Swine%20Flu%20Paper%20Janak.html

_________________________________________________________

OH!  FFS!!!  If you believe the stuff on that site, you'll believe 
anything!!  The authors are a journalist and a so-called naturopath. 
Sheesh!!!

The message 
from Martin <me@address.invalid> contains these words:

> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:34:54 -0700 (PDT), CP 
> wrote:

> >This news report makes for interesting viewing:
> >
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0

> Have you got a link to written facts that back up his rumours?

    Its a USA report. USA testing of swine flu vaccine, is different
from the safety standard required in the EU  (see WHO) 

> What was the bit about autism? Not MMR vaccine by any chance?

   No. Its about thimerosal ( US spelling thimerosal, UK spelling
thiomersal ) 

http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Library/News/No_evidence_that_neither_thimerosal_nor_MMR_vaccine_cause_autism


> and the bit about the vaccine containing mercury?

   In the UK, there will be 2 swineflu vaccines available.

  Pandemrix vaccine includes the preservative thimerosal, which contains
mercury.
   Celvapam vaccine contains no thiomersal and is the one to be used for
pregnant women (and people allergic to egg products, because it isn't
produced in eggs) 

http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Search?terms=thiomersal

   Janet

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:05:29 -0000, "Ophelia" 
wrote:

>
>"Jane Gillett"  wrote in message 
>news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
>> puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
>> up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
>> ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>
>Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine? 
>
Not me.

-- 
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:34:54 -0700 (PDT), CP
 wrote:
>
>Yes.
>This news report makes for interesting viewing:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0

Mercury?  I didn't know.  That's an issue for me!

However, if I worried about the small chances of certain side effects
(in this case Guillain-Barré), I would be taking no medication and
have no medical procedure done - ever.


-- 
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:35:36 -0700, sf wrote in post :
<news:mdlfe5l5kmrd8qtpukvg288c1f90gleptq@4ax.com> :

> Mercury?  I didn't know.  That's an issue for me!

In minute amounts.
Inorganic mercury is pretty harmless stuff. Even organic mercury (methyl-
etc) compounds are normally removed from the body within a month. There are
some people who cannot rid themselves of it so well, and these should be
more concerned. 

-- 
Tim C.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:46:36 +0100, Martin wrote in post :
<news:31nee5h174m899hgracjv953gticts1khl@4ax.com> :

> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:53:07 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:19:59 +0000, Mike.. .  . wrote in post :
>><news:1496ysphcazi2$.1sqzkynkm17g7.dlg@40tude.net> :
>>
>>> to be fair not just UK approach.
>>
>>Yeah I know. Imagine the outcry if it were a disease that "required" all
>>pet cats and hamsters in the UK to be killed.
> 
> and dogs!

I wouldn't mind too much about the dogs.  

-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:37:39 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:46:36 +0100, Martin wrote in post :
><news:31nee5h174m899hgracjv953gticts1khl@4ax.com> :
>
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:53:07 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:
>> 
>>>On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:19:59 +0000, Mike.. .  . wrote in post :
>>><news:1496ysphcazi2$.1sqzkynkm17g7.dlg@40tude.net> :
>>>
>>>> to be fair not just UK approach.
>>>
>>>Yeah I know. Imagine the outcry if it were a disease that "required" all
>>>pet cats and hamsters in the UK to be killed.
>> 
>> and dogs!
>
>I wouldn't mind too much about the dogs.  

That was the good news/mews.  
-- 

Martin

"graham"  wrote in
news:qECFm.10434$U55.5915@newsfe02.iad: 

> 
> "Tim C."  wrote in message 
> news:wi6712wa5e2u.t5vspnk1irlh.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:34:18 -0600, graham wrote in post :
>> <news:xzhFm.40823$EU5.20886@newsfe05.iad> :
>>
>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:ca8be5d4pmu265990okb7gqs1sqtg66g8s@4ax.com...
>>>> On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in
>>>>>>>a hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year. 
>>>>>>>I refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I
>>>>>>>resisted. I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I
>>>>>>>have deep set fears which may be totally irrational but I won't
>>>>>>>put a virus, albeit a dead one, into my body.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>>>>>
>>>>>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully not *soon*.
>>>>
>>>> I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
>>>> If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few
>>>> Dutch religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
>>>> -- 
>>> And smallpox!
>>> AIUI, "vaccinate" is a word specifically for smallpox.  "Inoculate"
>>> is for
>>> all the other diseases.  Funny how language developes.
>>> Graham
>>
>> So, if you receive a vaccine, you are vaccinated. If you receive an
>> inoculation, do you become innocuous?
>>
> and if you get pricked by the hypodermic you become a........{:-)
> Graham 

And when the doctor asked me for a sample I though he was taking the ...

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

sf   wrote in
news:kukfe5d38afs1uvcenso8d3u6bam9vsb69@4ax.com: 

> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:05:29 -0000, "Ophelia" 
> wrote:
> 
>>
>>"Jane Gillett"  wrote in message 
>>news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so
>>> that puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being
>>> diabetic puts me up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll
>>> be amongst the early ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall
>>> not worry if I'm not. 
>>
>>Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine? 
>>
> Not me.
> 

In isolation, no.  But as with all things in life, don't let anyone insert 
them into your body until you are sure you're safe.

Nobody has a monopoly on the truth, it's up to each individual to satisfy 
themselves.

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

On 28 Oct 2009 09:34:26 GMT, Adrian Tupper wrote in post :
<news:Xns9CB2616B25A99niceguyonzetnet@194.247.47.119> :

> sf   wrote in
> news:kukfe5d38afs1uvcenso8d3u6bam9vsb69@4ax.com: 
> 
>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:05:29 -0000, "Ophelia" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>>"Jane Gillett"  wrote in message 
>>>news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>>>> Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so
>>>> that puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being
>>>> diabetic puts me up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll
>>>> be amongst the early ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall
>>>> not worry if I'm not. 
>>>
>>>Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine? 
>>>
>> Not me.
>> 
> 
> In isolation, no.  But as with all things in life, don't let anyone insert 
> them into your body until you are sure you're safe.
> 
> Nobody has a monopoly on the truth, it's up to each individual to satisfy 
> themselves.

Well said. 

-- 
Tim C.

"CP"  ha scritto nel messaggio


http://www.profitableharm.com/Swine%20Flu%20Paper%20Janak.html

That reads from word one as crackpot.  Bibliography?  Factual backup. 
Quotation marks are not enough proof.

What evidence shows that H1N1 is a product of biowarfare engineering?  Where 
would they come by such evidence?  If it's true then we really DO need to 
stop it.
Why would it be in the interests of countries strapped for cash by huge 
financial crisis to invent a health crisis that they have to step up to 
fight?  Is it just pure mean-minded cruelty practiced on the population for 
fun?
So they tell me that death rates are not higher than rates for seasonal 
flus, exceot that IT IS NOT YET FLU SEASON and we already have experienced a 
normal deathrate from this flu.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:20:22 +0100, "Giusi"  wrote:

>
>"CP"  ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>
>http://www.profitableharm.com/Swine%20Flu%20Paper%20Janak.html
>
>That reads from word one as crackpot.  Bibliography?  Factual backup. 
>Quotation marks are not enough proof.
>
>What evidence shows that H1N1 is a product of biowarfare engineering?  Where 
>would they come by such evidence?  If it's true then we really DO need to 
>stop it.

and why would the 192 member states of the WHO, a UN organisation, collude with
such a conspiracy?
-- 

Martin

In article ,
    wrote:
> Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> > I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
> > If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few Dutch
> > religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.

> I think there's a difference between vaccinating against potentially
> life-threatening and life-altering diseases such as polio, smallpox,
> rubella, etc and against vaccinating against relatively trivial diseases
> such as flu.

Flu is not trivial for everybody. It can kill people with certain medical
conditions. If you get flu then you help infect others you come into contact
with, including perhaps some with those particular medical conditions and
this can well happen <before you are aware you are ill>.

> I'm in no way saying don't vaccinate against anything.  My kids have
> both had their full sets of vaccines.  I just worry about the over-
> medication of the world, adding more and more random chemicals to people
> and giving their immune systems no reason to learn to kick in.

Over medication is one thing and I share your concern. However, IMV,
immunisation does not come into this category. It does not prevent your
immune systems from working but can either give a faster resistance than
your body can or - and maybe "and" - stimulate your own immune system
depending on the type of immunisation.

> Consider the over-use of antibiotics, for an example.  (A different
> case, obviously, but a similar over-medicating for the sake of it
> causing unexpected problems in the long term)

Antibiotics have a totally different mechanism from immunisation. Badly
managed antibiotic treatment can certainly cause ill effects such as
reservoirs of resistant infection.

Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article <1496ysphcazi2$.1sqzkynkm17g7.dlg@40tude.net>,
   Mike.. .  .  wrote:
> Following up to Tim C. 

> >>>But you can't tell the difference between the carriers and those that have
> >>>been vaccinated as they both have antibodies.

I think it depends on exactly which vaccine you are talking about. With
some of the later ones it is possible to distinguish now.

> >>> I propose killing everybody
> >>>to make sure it doesn't spread.    ;-)
> >> 
> >> A typical Austrian solution :)
> >    
> >  
> > British Foot and Mouth reaction :-)

> to be fair not just UK approach. 

> a) we have eliminated a disease, excellent.
> b) theres an outbreak
> c) KILL EVERYTHING because we declared it was eliminated.

 Start with trade. 

1. If we eliminate FMD by killing only ie without vaccination then we can
start exporting meat after x months after the last case (can't remember how
many); if we allow vaccination then we have to wait 2 times x months. Has
this changed? With the new vaccines that can be distinguished from previous
infection? Haven't heard anything.

2. AIUI some smkt(s?) did a survey of customers asking whether they would
buy vaccinated meat (general, not just FMD). Predictably, there were a
large number who said NO, they wouldn't. What they thought happened to the
"standard" meat they buy I cannot imagine; our animals were vaccinated as
routine against certain diseases and if you had watched lambs struggling to
breathe with pasteurella disease then I hope you would support vaccination
too - but I digress.

I support vaccination for FMD although I can understand the business
agruments against it. I also think that the measures imposed in recent
outbreaks were well outside those needed by straight medical requirements
in regard to infection spread and that the way in which they were chosen
and implemented showed a complete lack of regard for medical knowledge and
a contempt for welfare of both animals and humans. And now? Are we going to
see more pyres in future? AIUI it is proposed to take more care to build
the pyres WHERE THE PUBLIC WON'T SEE THEM. OK Jane, leave it
alone!!!!!!!!!!!

Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

On 26 Oct 2009 13:36:58 GMT, vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk wrote in post :
<news:7klmvqF31obk0U2@mid.individual.net> :

>  I just worry about the over-
> medication of the world, adding more and more random chemicals to people
> and giving their immune systems no reason to learn to kick in.

A valid thing to worry about. Especially food additives, pesticides and
general pollution of all sorts etc. 

But vaccines do just that - give the immune system a chance to kick in and
learn on its own, sort of like a mock 'O' level, before the real thing
comes along. 

-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:15:18 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
<news:50b13df667j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> That can surely lead to a combination of H5N1 with, not only
> H1N1, but with a form of H1N1 which is already resistant to cartain
> antibiotics.

I didn't think viruses respond well to antibiotics, they're for bacteria.

-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:56:44 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:15:18 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
><news:50b13df667j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>
>> That can surely lead to a combination of H5N1 with, not only
>> H1N1, but with a form of H1N1 which is already resistant to cartain
>> antibiotics.
>
>I didn't think viruses respond well to antibiotics, they're for bacteria.

Holy Water is useful if all else fails.
-- 

Martin

Jane Gillett  wrote:
> 1. If we eliminate FMD by killing only ie without vaccination then we can
> start exporting meat after x months after the last case (can't remember how
> many); if we allow vaccination then we have to wait 2 times x months. Has
> this changed? 

I read about this (or something similar - I'm terrible at remembering
details!) during the main crisis months, but I didn't understand /why/
this was the case.  And if it is a wrong judgment, shouldn't people be
trying to get it sorted out, rather than just accepting the ruling and
letting it continue to be a problem?

Tim C.  wrote:
> A valid thing to worry about. Especially food additives, pesticides and
> general pollution of all sorts etc. 

Which is fine, as long as you trust the people choosing what to inject
you with and don't worry about the amount of influence the
pharmaceutical companies seem to have over ... well, just about everyone

> But vaccines do just that - give the immune system a chance to kick in and
> learn on its own, sort of like a mock 'O' level, before the real thing
> comes along. 

Ah, maybe the problem is that I failed my maths A-level mock exam ...

The message 
from "Giusi"  contains these words:


> So they tell me that death rates are not higher than rates for seasonal 
> flus, exceot that IT IS NOT YET FLU SEASON and we already have
> experienced a 
> normal deathrate from this flu.

    Seasonal flu deaths are  mostly  among old frail people .
 The pattern of deaths from swine flu is entirely different.

   Janet

Following up to Jane Gillett 

> 1. If we eliminate FMD by killing only ie without vaccination then we can
> start exporting meat after x months after the last case (can't remember how
> many); if we allow vaccination then we have to wait 2 times x months. Has
> this changed? With the new vaccines that can be distinguished from previous
> infection? Haven't heard anything.

thats only because we follow the current systems
 
> 2. AIUI some smkt(s?) did a survey of customers asking whether they would
> buy vaccinated meat (general, not just FMD). Predictably, there were a
> large number who said NO, they wouldn't.

If you ask that sort of question the answer is predictable
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk 

>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
> 
> Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.

only "alleged", what have you heard?
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

> And when the doctor asked me for a sample I though he was taking the ...

could be worse
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

> But as with all things in life, don't let anyone insert 
> them into your body until you are sure you're safe.

you can apply that to other areas too.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Mike.. .  .  wrote:
>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>> Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
> only "alleged", what have you heard?

I haven't experienced it personally, anything else is heresay.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:35:13 +0100, "Tim C." 
wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:35:36 -0700, sf wrote in post :
><news:mdlfe5l5kmrd8qtpukvg288c1f90gleptq@4ax.com> :
>
>> Mercury?  I didn't know.  That's an issue for me!
>
>In minute amounts.
>Inorganic mercury is pretty harmless stuff. Even organic mercury (methyl-
>etc) compounds are normally removed from the body within a month. There are
>some people who cannot rid themselves of it so well, and these should be
>more concerned. 

According to what I heard today on Public Radio, H1N1 is grown the
same way the regular vaccine is and the main objection is to the
preservatives... they are making it w/o preservatives also.  IOW: same
ol', same ol' as far as objections.  Autism and Guillain-Barré were
not mentioned as issues but I didn't hear the entire interview.

-- 
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 28 Oct 2009 09:34:26 GMT, Adrian Tupper
 wrote:

>In isolation, no.  But as with all things in life, don't let anyone insert 
>them into your body until you are sure you're safe.

Like I said in a previous post... if I subscribed to that way of
thinking I'd take no medication of any type including vitamins.  I
wouldn't undergo surgery of any kind.  I wouldn't even color my hair.
There is always a risk that something could go wrong no matter what
you do, nothing is ever 100% safe.  Live in fear or not.  It's up to
you.

-- 
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"sf"  wrote in message 
news:f2lhe5tfo8codqkj4nfhvo6sn3lp0fb2iq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:35:13 +0100, "Tim C." 
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:35:36 -0700, sf wrote in post :
>><news:mdlfe5l5kmrd8qtpukvg288c1f90gleptq@4ax.com> :
>>
>>> Mercury?  I didn't know.  That's an issue for me!
>>
>>In minute amounts.
>>Inorganic mercury is pretty harmless stuff. Even organic mercury (methyl-
>>etc) compounds are normally removed from the body within a month. There 
>>are
>>some people who cannot rid themselves of it so well, and these should be
>>more concerned.
>
> According to what I heard today on Public Radio, H1N1 is grown the
> same way the regular vaccine is and the main objection is to the
> preservatives... they are making it w/o preservatives also.  IOW: same
> ol', same ol' as far as objections.  Autism and Guillain-Barré were
> not mentioned as issues but I didn't hear the entire interview.
>
That's because autism isn't an issue, except in the minds of some cranks, 
and G-B is extremely rare.
Graham

On 28 Oct 2009 21:25:23 GMT, vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk wrote in post :
<news:7krr63F38irdbU1@mid.individual.net> :

> Mike.. .  .  wrote:
>>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>>> Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
>> only "alleged", what have you heard?
> 
> I haven't experienced it personally, anything else is heresay.

or heresy? 
-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:35:49 -0700, sf wrote in post :
<news:f2lhe5tfo8codqkj4nfhvo6sn3lp0fb2iq@4ax.com> :

> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:35:13 +0100, "Tim C." 
> wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:35:36 -0700, sf wrote in post :
>><news:mdlfe5l5kmrd8qtpukvg288c1f90gleptq@4ax.com> :
>>
>>> Mercury?  I didn't know.  That's an issue for me!
>>
>>In minute amounts.
>>Inorganic mercury is pretty harmless stuff. Even organic mercury (methyl-
>>etc) compounds are normally removed from the body within a month. There are
>>some people who cannot rid themselves of it so well, and these should be
>>more concerned. 
> 
> According to what I heard today on Public Radio, H1N1 is grown the
> same way the regular vaccine is and the main objection is to the
> preservatives... they are making it w/o preservatives also.  IOW: same
> ol', same ol' as far as objections.  Autism and Guillain-Barré were
> not mentioned as issues but I didn't hear the entire interview.

Exactly. It's just the fact that it's a novel flu that's brought it back
into the limelight, needlessly imo.

-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:42:07 -0700, sf wrote in post :
<news:7blhe590h436d1vv5f5g6hmmun7d074n17@4ax.com> :

> On 28 Oct 2009 09:34:26 GMT, Adrian Tupper
>  wrote:
> 
>>In isolation, no.  But as with all things in life, don't let anyone insert 
>>them into your body until you are sure you're safe.
> 
> Like I said in a previous post... if I subscribed to that way of
> thinking I'd take no medication of any type including vitamins.  I
> wouldn't undergo surgery of any kind.  I wouldn't even color my hair.
> There is always a risk that something could go wrong no matter what
> you do, nothing is ever 100% safe.  Live in fear or not.  It's up to
> you.

or east anything. :-(
-- 
Tim C.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:09:47 +0100, Tim C. wrote in post :
<news:1bpjak20v9hy6.wrqo2203oh6k.dlg@40tude.net> :

> or east* anything. :-(

arse!..

  *eat     
-- 
Tim C.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:13:11 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:09:47 +0100, Tim C. wrote in post :
><news:1bpjak20v9hy6.wrqo2203oh6k.dlg@40tude.net> :
>
>> or east* anything. :-(
>
>arse!..
Language Timothy!

>
>  *eat     

so not "feast on"
-- 

Martin

Following up to Tim C. 

>> or east* anything. :-(
> 
> arse!..

indeed, dont arse anything.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

In article ,
    wrote:
> Tim C.  wrote:
> > A valid thing to worry about. Especially food additives, pesticides and
> > general pollution of all sorts etc. 

> Which is fine, as long as you trust the people choosing what to inject
> you with and don't worry about the amount of influence the
> pharmaceutical companies seem to have over ... well, just about everyone

Yes. However, at present I would trust UK doctors in general and certainly
my local practitioners to act in my best interests. As far as Pharm Cos are
concerned, yes more concerned. Fortunately their influence is "fliltered
through the medics ATM. 

I'm ather more owried about the  influence - no, lets call it strength of
control, stranglehold almost - that the GM producing companies could very
easily have on our future food/seeds. They already seem to be getting legal
powers to stop farmers saving seed which is upsetting long tradition in the
underdeveloped world and costing poor farmers there for fresh seed every
year. They have tried taking out court cases against farmers in US who have
had their own non-GM crops "corrupted" by GM seeds from neighbouring plots.

 But apart from this very aggressive commercial behaviour (which mirrors,
IMV, the behaviour of the big smkts in  that they use their commercial
power to get their own way), I am not at all happy about the choice they
will make of exactly which plant characteristics to concentrate on in their
modification work. We have all heard defences of GM (and I am not
necessarily against GM on principle) based on the idea that it can bring
this or that benefit and presumably it can, but are the GM companies going
to concentrate their efforts (and money) on products of maximum <benefit>
to people? I have my doubts. The products which will be developed, and
those which therefore become most widespread throughout the world and form
the greater part of our future food supply, are going to be those which
bring the best "bottom line" ie the highest profit to the companies
concerned; forget benefits to people.

Cheers
Jane

> > But vaccines do just that - give the immune system a chance to kick in and
> > learn on its own, sort of like a mock 'O' level, before the real thing
> > comes along. 

> Ah, maybe the problem is that I failed my maths A-level mock exam ...

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article ,
   Adrian Tupper  wrote:
> "graham"  wrote in
> news:qECFm.10434$U55.5915@newsfe02.iad: 

> > 
> > "Tim C."  wrote in message 
> > news:wi6712wa5e2u.t5vspnk1irlh.dlg@40tude.net...
> >> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:34:18 -0600, graham wrote in post :
> >> <news:xzhFm.40823$EU5.20886@newsfe05.iad> :
> >>
> >>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
> >>> news:ca8be5d4pmu265990okb7gqs1sqtg66g8s@4ax.com...
> >>>> On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked in
> >>>>>>>a hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every year. 
> >>>>>>>I refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I
> >>>>>>>resisted. I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  I
> >>>>>>>have deep set fears which may be totally irrational but I won't
> >>>>>>>put a virus, albeit a dead one, into my body.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hopefully not *soon*.
> >>>>
> >>>> I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
> >>>> If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a few
> >>>> Dutch religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
> >>>> -- 
> >>> And smallpox!
> >>> AIUI, "vaccinate" is a word specifically for smallpox.  "Inoculate"
> >>> is for
> >>> all the other diseases.  Funny how language developes.
> >>> Graham
> >>
> >> So, if you receive a vaccine, you are vaccinated. If you receive an
> >> inoculation, do you become innocuous?
> >>
> > and if you get pricked by the hypodermic you become a........{:-)
> > Graham 

> And when the doctor asked me for a sample I though he was taking the ...

Hello Adrian. Haven't seen you for a while ISTM.

Cheers
Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article ,
   Giusi  wrote:

> "CP"  ha scritto nel messaggio


> http://www.profitableharm.com/Swine%20Flu%20Paper%20Janak.html

> That reads from word one as crackpot.  Bibliography?  Factual backup. 
> Quotation marks are not enough proof.

> What evidence shows that H1N1 is a product of biowarfare engineering?  Where 
> would they come by such evidence?  If it's true then we really DO need to 
> stop it.
> Why would it be in the interests of countries strapped for cash by huge 
> financial crisis to invent a health crisis that they have to step up to 
> fight?  Is it just pure mean-minded cruelty practiced on the population for 
> fun?
> So they tell me that death rates are not higher than rates for seasonal 
> flus, exceot that IT IS NOT YET FLU SEASON and we already have experienced a 
> normal deathrate from this flu.

No idea whether H1N1 is germ warfare - why should it be?

However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local hospital has
just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal cleaning" had
been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? We've had the
CHief Exec (I think) (non-medic) on the radio; I was unconvinced.

Cheers
Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article ,
   Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> The message 
> from "Giusi"  contains these words:


> > So they tell me that death rates are not higher than rates for seasonal 
> > flus, exceot that IT IS NOT YET FLU SEASON and we already have
> > experienced a 
> > normal deathrate from this flu.

>     Seasonal flu deaths are  mostly  among old frail people .
>  The pattern of deaths from swine flu is entirely different.

The reason given to me by a medic wiht expertise in the infection field is
that the older people have some residual resistance from a flu with similar
characteristics to H1N1 which came though the country many years ago.

Jane

>    Janet

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article <1bio50926s6a1.mfgs52xs1yca$.dlg@40tude.net>,
   Tim C.  wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:15:18 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
> <news:50b13df667j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> > That can surely lead to a combination of H5N1 with, not only
> > H1N1, but with a form of H1N1 which is already resistant to cartain
> > antibiotics.

> I didn't think viruses respond well to antibiotics, they're for bacteria.

Yes. You are right.

Is Tamiflu an antibiotic or something else then because I remember it was
prescribed for H5N1 - and rumour had it that certain multinational
companies and rich individuals were buying their own supplies.

So maybe Tamiflu was being used to guard against the other (bacterial)
infections which attack when the body is weakened by a virus attack.

So where does that leave us with regard to creating resistant viruses?

Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:19 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
<news:50b1b9038ej.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> No idea whether H1N1 is germ warfare - why should it be?

It's a plot by the pharmatocracy to increase profits. 

If it is it's very poorly thought out and full of faults. So I suppose it
must be germ warfare, as we know that the moon landings were faked and that
the WTC/pentagon attacks were US government conspiracies.  :-)  
 
-- 
Tim C.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:03:01 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
<news:50b1bb2eb7j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> In article <1bio50926s6a1.mfgs52xs1yca$.dlg@40tude.net>,
>    Tim C.  wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:15:18 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>> <news:50b13df667j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
> 
>>> That can surely lead to a combination of H5N1 with, not only
>>> H1N1, but with a form of H1N1 which is already resistant to cartain
>>> antibiotics.
> 
>> I didn't think viruses respond well to antibiotics, they're for bacteria.
> 
> Yes. You are right.
> 
> Is Tamiflu an antibiotic or something else then because I remember it was
> prescribed for H5N1 - and rumour had it that certain multinational
> companies and rich individuals were buying their own supplies.
> 
> So maybe Tamiflu was being used to guard against the other (bacterial)
> infections which attack when the body is weakened by a virus attack.
> 
> So where does that leave us with regard to creating resistant viruses?
> 
> Jane

Tamiflu is a general antiviral.  The problem with viruses is that they
infect cells and "live" and reproduce inside them. And are only for a short
while free. Therefore they are very well protected from most medicines, as
to kill them you nearly always end up killing the cells they've infected.
(not good as you'll do more damage to your body that way).

I don't know exactly how it works but Tamiflu works something like this:
Viruses infect a cell and invade it, hijack the cell's replication system
and the cell makes loads of copies of the virus. Later these new viruses
either burst the cells open (because there're so many of them) or otherwise
make their way out to the surface of the cell, where they let go and are
set free to invade other cells. 
Tamiflu stops the new viruses from spreading by stopping them cutting the
chemical bonds they have made to the parent cell. In effect keeping them
stuck to the (probably now dead) mother cell, where they would be mopped up
by the immune system later.




I've heard there are some unpleasant side effects with it though. 

-- 
Tim C.

Following up to Jane Gillett 

> Hello Adrian. Haven't seen you for a while ISTM.

Yes, hello too Adrian, were you lying low through the bankers are *ankers
crisis? :-)
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to CP 

> but am
> pretty sure that the WTC/Pentagon attacks weren't carried out by 19
> incompetent Saudis, masterminded by a man on a dialysis machine in a
> cave near Kabul!

groan
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to Tim C. 

> So I suppose it
> must be germ warfare, as we know that the moon landings were faked and that
> the WTC/pentagon attacks were US government conspiracies.  :-)

I'm convinced there *were* WMD's

proof:-
"http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/kwansududes/Weaponsofmassdestruction.png"
"http://www.adrants.com/images/big_boobs_airfare.jpg"
"http://www.flickr.com/photos/_belial/2565291472/"

OK, its an old one but its a good excuse.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:35:32 +0000, Mike.. .  . wrote in post :
<news:kmt48qnb9ea9.cjcj7v7m8bix$.dlg@40tude.net> :

> Following up to Tim C. 
> 
>> So I suppose it
>> must be germ warfare, as we know that the moon landings were faked and that
>> the WTC/pentagon attacks were US government conspiracies.  :-)
> 
> I'm convinced there *were* WMD's
> 
> proof:-
> "http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/kwansududes/Weaponsofmassdestruction.png"
> "http://www.adrants.com/images/big_boobs_airfare.jpg"
> "http://www.flickr.com/photos/_belial/2565291472/"
> 
> OK, its an old one but its a good excuse.

Who needs an excuse for those?  :-)
-- 
Tim C.

The message 
from Jane Gillett  contains these words:


> However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
> Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
> infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local hospital has
> just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
> somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal cleaning" had
> been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? 

      It uses specialist equipment , sent to each hospital in the county
in turn. 

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Hi-tech-vaporisers-wiping-bugs-RD-E-deep-clean/article-309687-detail/article.html

RD&E hotel services manager Hazel Hedicker said six hydrogen peroxide
vaporiser machines — which generate a dry mist to decontaminate wards —
had been bought with £98,000 of Strategic Health Authority funding as
part of a Department of Health deep cleaning programme.

http://www.devonpct.nhs.uk/default.asp?news=173   (March 2009)

The deep clean programme is being rolled out at all 21 hospitals run by
Devon Primary Care Trust.
This deep clean process is being implemented in addition to the normal
cleaning procedures that routinely occur in these community hospitals.
It will ensure that it will be far less disruptive for patients and
allow for essential work to be carried out and allow the upgrading of
some buildings, facilities and equipment.Pat McDonagh, assistant
director of business support, said: “The deep clean programme has been
carefully planned to ensure minimum disruption to our patients.
“It will make it easier for our maintenance and cleaning staff to carry
out their routine work and this will improve patient experience.”

<endquote>

   Janet

In article <1bbqcz9vt6vap$.1wd59tkov5qy5.dlg@40tude.net>,
   Tim C.  wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:03:01 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
> <news:50b1bb2eb7j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> > In article <1bio50926s6a1.mfgs52xs1yca$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> >    Tim C.  wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:15:18 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
> >> <news:50b13df667j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
> > 
> >>> That can surely lead to a combination of H5N1 with, not only
> >>> H1N1, but with a form of H1N1 which is already resistant to cartain
> >>> antibiotics.
> > 
> >> I didn't think viruses respond well to antibiotics, they're for bacteria.
> > 
> > Yes. You are right.
> > 
> > Is Tamiflu an antibiotic or something else then because I remember it was
> > prescribed for H5N1 - and rumour had it that certain multinational
> > companies and rich individuals were buying their own supplies.
> > 
> > So maybe Tamiflu was being used to guard against the other (bacterial)
> > infections which attack when the body is weakened by a virus attack.
> > 
> > So where does that leave us with regard to creating resistant viruses?
> > 
> > Jane

> Tamiflu is a general antiviral.  The problem with viruses is that they
> infect cells and "live" and reproduce inside them. And are only for a short
> while free. Therefore they are very well protected from most medicines, as
> to kill them you nearly always end up killing the cells they've infected.
> (not good as you'll do more damage to your body that way).

> I don't know exactly how it works but Tamiflu works something like this:
> Viruses infect a cell and invade it, hijack the cell's replication system
> and the cell makes loads of copies of the virus. Later these new viruses
> either burst the cells open (because there're so many of them) or otherwise
> make their way out to the surface of the cell, where they let go and are
> set free to invade other cells. 
> Tamiflu stops the new viruses from spreading by stopping them cutting the
> chemical bonds they have made to the parent cell. In effect keeping them
> stuck to the (probably now dead) mother cell, where they would be mopped up
> by the immune system later.

Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the cell
it has multiplied in.

AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly managed
use.

Jane




> I've heard there are some unpleasant side effects with it though.

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article ,
   Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> The message 
> from Jane Gillett  contains these words:


> > However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
> > Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
> > infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local hospital has
> > just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
> > somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal cleaning" had
> > been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? 

>       It uses specialist equipment , sent to each hospital in the county
> in turn. 

> http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Hi-tech-vaporisers-wiping-bugs-RD-E-deep-clean/article-309687-detail/article.html

> RD&E hotel services manager Hazel Hedicker said six hydrogen peroxide
> vaporiser machines — which generate a dry mist to decontaminate wards —
> had been bought with £98,000 of Strategic Health Authority funding as
> part of a Department of Health deep cleaning programme.

> http://www.devonpct.nhs.uk/default.asp?news=173   (March 2009)

> The deep clean programme is being rolled out at all 21 hospitals run by
> Devon Primary Care Trust.
> This deep clean process is being implemented in addition to the normal
> cleaning procedures that routinely occur in these community hospitals.
> It will ensure that it will be far less disruptive for patients and
> allow for essential work to be carried out and allow the upgrading of
> some buildings, facilities and equipment.Pat McDonagh, assistant
> director of business support, said: “The deep clean programme has been
> carefully planned to ensure minimum disruption to our patients.
> “It will make it easier for our maintenance and cleaning staff to carry
> out their routine work and this will improve patient experience.”

> <endquote>

>    Janet


I'm sure that's all correct but why choose to do it at the time of the year
of maximum load?

What has the £98000 figure got to do with why they are doing it? Are they
expecting a medal or a commendation for saving money (is it cheap or
dear?)? As a matter of interest how does it stack up against other things
that the hospital or trust pay for?

So it's in addition to "normal cleaning". Is this a "routine extra"; the
equivalent of the traditional "Spring Cleaning" for intance? In that case
case why not schedule it to take place outside peak periods? Or is it an
urgently required procedure? Why? Because of a specific situation or
because "normal cleaning" has not cleaned adequately? Would be nice to know.

How will it " ensure that it will be far less disruptive for patients and
allow for essential work to be carried out and allow the upgrading of
some buildings, facilities and equipment."? I don't see the connection.
Unless, of course, they will take the opportunity to do other work on the
wards while they are closed which is a good idea if you are going to close
them any way but the original question still remains - why choose to do the
work at the time of maximum load? Suspicious thought:  Are there
T.A.R.G.E.T.S to be met? After all, hospital actions are countable while 
if a GP doesn't send a patient to hospital it is hard to argue whether
that's because the patient didn't need it or whether it's because the GP
was obeying instructions to send less patients. 

Jane
>

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:50:41 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
<news:50b2436144j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
> progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the cell
> it has multiplied in.
> 
> AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly managed
> use.

Of course. The side effects might help prevent that though. :-)

-- 
Tim C.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:13:11 +0100, "Tim C." 
wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:09:47 +0100, Tim C. wrote in post :
><news:1bpjak20v9hy6.wrqo2203oh6k.dlg@40tude.net> :
>
>> or east* anything. :-(
>
>arse!..
>
>  *eat     

:)  That too.

-- 
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

The message 
from Jane Gillett  contains these words:

> In article ,
>    Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> > The message 
> > from Jane Gillett  contains these words:


> > > However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
> > > Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
> > > infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local
> > > hospital has
> > > just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
> > > somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal
> > > cleaning" had
> > > been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? 

> >       It uses specialist equipment , sent to each hospital in the county
> > in turn. 

> > http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Hi-tech-vaporisers-wiping-bugs-RD-E-deep-clean/article-309687-detail/article.html

> > RD&E hotel services manager Hazel Hedicker said six hydrogen peroxide
> > vaporiser machines — which generate a dry mist to decontaminate wards —
> > had been bought with £98,000 of Strategic Health Authority funding as
> > part of a Department of Health deep cleaning programme.

> > http://www.devonpct.nhs.uk/default.asp?news=173   (March 2009)

> > The deep clean programme is being rolled out at all 21 hospitals run by
> > Devon Primary Care Trust.
> > This deep clean process is being implemented in addition to the normal
> > cleaning procedures that routinely occur in these community hospitals.
> > It will ensure that it will be far less disruptive for patients and
> > allow for essential work to be carried out and allow the upgrading of
> > some buildings, facilities and equipment.Pat McDonagh, assistant
> > director of business support, said: “The deep clean programme has been
> > carefully planned to ensure minimum disruption to our patients.
> > “It will make it easier for our maintenance and cleaning staff to carry
> > out their routine work and this will improve patient experience.”

> > <endquote>

> >    Janet


> I'm sure that's all correct but why choose to do it at the time of the year
> of maximum load? 

    Take an intelligent guess: 

When 21 locations share the use of  6 expensive  machines they can't all
do their deep cleaning simultaneously.
  It has to be a "rolling" program  so that the country always has
enough beds available for use.
   Extra work can only be done if/when  enough staff  are available. I
would guess, hospital cleaning staff  are encouraged (and want)
to take their annual leave  in summer when  things are relatively quiet
at work  (and  their kids are off school). Rather, than in winter when 
the services are expected to be at full stretch.  
  Someone has to be last.

> What has the £98000 figure got to do with why they are doing it? 

  The high cost of 6 machines suggests why they didn't lash out on 21. 
 
 Why they are doing deep-cleaning, is in the urls I cited.
  
   Janet

sf   wrote in
news:7blhe590h436d1vv5f5g6hmmun7d074n17@4ax.com: 

> On 28 Oct 2009 09:34:26 GMT, Adrian Tupper
>  wrote:
> 
>>In isolation, no.  But as with all things in life, don't let anyone
>>insert them into your body until you are sure you're safe.
> 
> Like I said in a previous post... if I subscribed to that way of
> thinking I'd take no medication of any type including vitamins.  I
> wouldn't undergo surgery of any kind.  I wouldn't even color my hair.
> There is always a risk that something could go wrong no matter what
> you do, nothing is ever 100% safe.  Live in fear or not.  It's up to
> you.
> 

You missed the point of my post.  It's *you* who has to take 
responsibility.  Replace "sure" with "satisfied" and add "enough" at the 
end if that helps.

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

"Mike.. .  ."  wrote in news:4a61pslniqs2
$.slq1pb4qd5oe$.dlg@40tude.net:

> Following up to Jane Gillett 
> 
>> Hello Adrian. Haven't seen you for a while ISTM.
> 
> Yes, hello too Adrian, were you lying low through the bankers are *ankers
> crisis? :-)

It wasn't my fault!

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

Jane Gillett  wrote in 
news:50b1b86fb6j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk:

> In article ,
>    Adrian Tupper  wrote:
>> "graham"  wrote in
>> news:qECFm.10434$U55.5915@newsfe02.iad: 
> 
>> > 
>> > "Tim C."  wrote in message 
>> > news:wi6712wa5e2u.t5vspnk1irlh.dlg@40tude.net...
>> >> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:34:18 -0600, graham wrote in post :
>> >> <news:xzhFm.40823$EU5.20886@newsfe05.iad> :
>> >>
>> >>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
>> >>> news:ca8be5d4pmu265990okb7gqs1sqtg66g8s@4ax.com...
>> >>>> On 26 Oct 2009 12:53:22 GMT,  
wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>Yes, I do.  My reasons are probably not valid.  When I worked 
in
>> >>>>>>>a hospital, we were offered the routine flu vaccine every 
year. 
>> >>>>>>>I refused to have it and I did have pressure put on me which I
>> >>>>>>>resisted. I was told that I had to protect the patients etc.  
I
>> >>>>>>>have deep set fears which may be totally irrational but I 
won't
>> >>>>>>>put a virus, albeit a dead one, into my body.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Will you be giving up breathing, eating and drinking soon too?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Everyone does, eventually.  Allegedly.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hopefully not *soon*.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I had polio when I was a kid before polio vaccine was available.
>> >>>> If people had the same attitude to vaccination as Judith and a 
few
>> >>>> Dutch religious nutters, people would still be catching polio.
>> >>>> -- 
>> >>> And smallpox!
>> >>> AIUI, "vaccinate" is a word specifically for smallpox.  
"Inoculate"
>> >>> is for
>> >>> all the other diseases.  Funny how language developes.
>> >>> Graham
>> >>
>> >> So, if you receive a vaccine, you are vaccinated. If you receive 
an
>> >> inoculation, do you become innocuous?
>> >>
>> > and if you get pricked by the hypodermic you become a........{:-)
>> > Graham 
> 
>> And when the doctor asked me for a sample I though he was taking the 
...
> 
> Hello Adrian. Haven't seen you for a while ISTM.
> 
> Cheers
> Jane
> 

Hello Jane.  Yes, not much posting but I've been lurking a lot though.
I got put off a while back when this place became a bit of a farce.  
Anyway, it's nice to take part in a thread again.

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

In article ,
   Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> The message 
> from Jane Gillett  contains these words:

> > In article ,
> >    Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> > > The message 
> > > from Jane Gillett  contains these words:


> > > > However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
> > > > Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
> > > > infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local
> > > > hospital has
> > > > just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
> > > > somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal
> > > > cleaning" had
> > > > been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? 

> > >       It uses specialist equipment , sent to each hospital in the county
> > > in turn. 

> > > http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Hi-tech-vaporisers-wiping-bugs-RD-E-deep-clean/article-309687-detail/article.html

> > > RD&E hotel services manager Hazel Hedicker said six hydrogen peroxide
> > > vaporiser machines — which generate a dry mist to decontaminate wards —
> > > had been bought with £98,000 of Strategic Health Authority funding as
> > > part of a Department of Health deep cleaning programme.

> > > http://www.devonpct.nhs.uk/default.asp?news=173   (March 2009)

> > > The deep clean programme is being rolled out at all 21 hospitals run by
> > > Devon Primary Care Trust.
> > > This deep clean process is being implemented in addition to the normal
> > > cleaning procedures that routinely occur in these community hospitals.
> > > It will ensure that it will be far less disruptive for patients and
> > > allow for essential work to be carried out and allow the upgrading of
> > > some buildings, facilities and equipment.Pat McDonagh, assistant
> > > director of business support, said: “The deep clean programme has been
> > > carefully planned to ensure minimum disruption to our patients.
> > > “It will make it easier for our maintenance and cleaning staff to carry
> > > out their routine work and this will improve patient experience.”

> > > <endquote>

> > >    Janet


> > I'm sure that's all correct but why choose to do it at the time of the year
> > of maximum load? 

>     Take an intelligent guess: 

It was decided by someone who holds the purse strings but does not have
direct <medical> responsibility for the health of the patients.

> When 21 locations share the use of  6 expensive  machines they can't all
> do their deep cleaning simultaneously.

Yep.

>   It has to be a "rolling" program  so that the country always has
> enough beds available for use.

Bit of a nuisance when the available bed is at the other end of the Trust
area. But anyway, doesn't that just take up beds somewhere else and prevent
<their> local patients being treated? If you've only got x beds you can
only treat what x beds will accomodate regardless of where those beds are
situated. You are simply taking x beds out of the system at the busiest
time.

>    Extra work can only be done if/when  enough staff  are available. I
> would guess, hospital cleaning staff  are encouraged (and want)
> to take their annual leave  in summer when  things are relatively quiet
> at work  (and  their kids are off school).

Yes. Parents want to be on holiday when schools are out. Most other people
probably don't - facilities are crowded and expensive.  What about the
staff in the hospitals which (presumably) were allocated this equipment
during the summer? Were they obliged to lose their holidays or did the
hospitals manage? Or was <all> this use of the cleaning equipment scheduled
for winter peak load time?

> Rather, than in winter when 
> the services are expected to be at full stretch.
 
>   Someone has to be last.

Doesn't matter whether you are last or not provided "last" does not push
you into peak load periods. OK - if it is a matter of peak period or leave
it until the Spring, which is preferable? Dunno. Shouldn't come to that
situation.  

Maybe the Trust should get more cleaning equipment; the figure of £98000
doesn't seem extreme for medical costs to me. How much does treating
rampant and unnecessary infections cost? Are there any other costs the
Trust could cut? And I don't mean drugs, medical personnel or medical
facilities. What about the load of regulation and reporting imposed on the
Trusts. Is <all> that necessary or productive? ISTR when somebody suggested
that the Devon Air Ambulance should be govt funded a couple of years ago
they opposed it strongly on the grounds that by the time they got through
all the reporting/regs it would entail they wouldn't be much better off -
maybe worse. Perhaps we neeed less reporting and more cleaning.

> > What has the £98000 figure got to do with why they are doing it? 

>   The high cost of 6 machines suggests why they didn't lash out on 21.

That's high is it? What do other activities cost? I'd be surprised if there
were not plenty of others which come into that level of cost.
>  
>  Why they are doing deep-cleaning, is in the urls I cited.

 Tavistock: "... to fight infections". OK. Doesn't tell you much. So does
everyday cleaning (hopefully!). <What infections? In what way and why was
everyday cleaning inadequate? Quality, quantity or type?>)
And (still Tav): "in addition to the normal cleaning procedures that
routinely occur...". Yes...???????????
And "...make it easier for our maintenance and cleaning staff to carry out
their routine work." Not a lot of justification there AFAICS.

Ah. RD&E. To help control the spread of vomiting and diarrhoea bugs. So
that's what it is about. Yes. That's very valuable. 

Pity they didn't do it <before> the hospital gets busy - and "someone has
to be last" is NOT (IMV) an excuse to push any hospital into its max load
period. If it's a crisis situation then you have to do what's necessary and
accept the downside but not as a <routine> which this seems to be being
presented as. Why have cleaning standards been allowed to deteriorate to
the extent that somebody has now decided that they need to seriously
interfere with the operation of a hospital during its peak period? Crisis
situation? Seems the only explanation.

Jane
>   
>    Janet

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

In article <19kita5prqk3t$.gfnlcoaonfnc$.dlg@40tude.net>,
   Tim C.  wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:50:41 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
> <news:50b2436144j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> > Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
> > progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the cell
> > it has multiplied in.
> > 
> > AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly managed
> > use.

> Of course. The side effects might help prevent that though. :-)

Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?
Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

"Jane Gillett"  wrote in message 
news:50b2c9fe7aj.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
> In article <19kita5prqk3t$.gfnlcoaonfnc$.dlg@40tude.net>,
>   Tim C.  wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:50:41 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>> <news:50b2436144j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>
>> > Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
>> > progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the 
>> > cell
>> > it has multiplied in.
>> >
>> > AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly 
>> > managed
>> > use.
>
>> Of course. The side effects might help prevent that though. :-)
>
> Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?

I've had Tamiflu with no side effects.

"Ophelia"

>> Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?
>
> I've had Tamiflu with no side effects.

The Italian news show doctors are pooh poohing the antivirals except for 
children who are having breathing problems... they actually mentioned 
tirning blue!  Isn't it too late to use it by the time that might happen?

How did it work for you?  No one here seems to know anything much about it, 
and you are the first I know who has used it.

"Giusi"  wrote in message 
news:7l2pmeF3b9imaU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Ophelia"
>
>>> Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?
>>
>> I've had Tamiflu with no side effects.
>
> The Italian news show doctors are pooh poohing the antivirals except for 
> children who are having breathing problems... they actually mentioned 
> tirning blue!  Isn't it too late to use it by the time that might happen?

The information here, is that you MUST take the antiviral within 48 hours of 
the symptoms appearing, but the sooner the better.

> How did it work for you?  No one here seems to know anything much about 
> it, and you are the first I know who has used it.

I woke one morning feeling fine.  Within the hour I developed fever, aching 
joints, sore head and generally felt very unwell.  David went online to NHS 
Direct, answered several pages of questions but then it advised speaking to 
our own doc because of the asthma.  Anyway, spoke to the doc, and answered a 
bunch of questions and he decided I had a viral illness.  David went to the 
surgery and picked up a prescription and straight off to the nominated 
dispensary.  Within two hours I had my first dose of the meds.

By that evening was starting to feel a wee bit better.  The symptoms 
continued for several days but didn't worsen, however, I did later develop a 
chest infection for which I was  prescribed antibiotics and steriods.   The 
latter is usual for me as I am a chronic asthmatic.

Was it H1N1? I don't know, because they don't swab now, but the course of 
the illness and the effects of the Tamiflu were very much as described by 
the doctor.  He told us that in someone with existing illnesses such as 
mine, the Tamiflu could reduce the effects and potential for more serious 
developements by up to 50%.  He also said that we shouldn't expect it to be 
an instant or miracle cure.  As mentioned by Tim elsewhere, Tamiflu is not 
specifically for H1N1, but for all viral illness.

"Ophelia" ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Giusi" wrote in message

The symptoms > continued for several days but didn't worsen, however, I did 
later develop a
> chest infection for which I was  prescribed antibiotics and steriods. 
> The latter is usual for me as I am a chronic asthmatic.

Thank you.  You always explain so clearly and well.
I never took Tamiflu, but I was prescribed Zovirax antiviral once for an 
attack of cold sores that got way out of hand.  Very useful thing to know 
about, but here no one seems to know.  I chatted briefly with my family med, 
but although he knew, he didn't mention an intention to prescribe quickly. 
They are asking folks to call the primary physician rather than drag 
themselves into the waiting room!

"Giusi"  wrote in message
news:7l5frqF3brp4sU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Ophelia" ha scritto nel messaggio
>> "Giusi" wrote in message
>
> The symptoms > continued for several days but didn't worsen, however, I
> did later develop a
>> chest infection for which I was  prescribed antibiotics and steriods. The
>> latter is usual for me as I am a chronic asthmatic.
>
> Thank you.  You always explain so clearly and well.
> I never took Tamiflu, but I was prescribed Zovirax antiviral once for an
> attack of cold sores that got way out of hand.

Zovirax is available here over the counter.

Very useful thing to know
> about, but here no one seems to know.  I chatted briefly with my family
> med, but although he knew, he didn't mention an intention to prescribe
> quickly. They are asking folks to call the primary physician rather than
> drag themselves into the waiting room!

The last thing you should do is drag yourself into the waiting room!

Mail me if I can help.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:21:00 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
<news:50b2c9fe7aj.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :

> In article <19kita5prqk3t$.gfnlcoaonfnc$.dlg@40tude.net>,
>    Tim C.  wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:50:41 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>> <news:50b2436144j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
> 
>>> Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
>>> progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the cell
>>> it has multiplied in.
>>> 
>>> AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly managed
>>> use.
> 
>> Of course. The side effects might help prevent that though. :-)
> 
> Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?
> Jane

Nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, abdominal pains, and headaches. Plus others in
rare cases.
 
-- 
Tim C.

"Tim C."  wrote in message 
news:1dtsqvfi9vjig.351j9yoyedzc.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:21:00 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
> <news:50b2c9fe7aj.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>
>> In article <19kita5prqk3t$.gfnlcoaonfnc$.dlg@40tude.net>,
>>    Tim C.  wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:50:41 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>>> <news:50b2436144j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>>
>>>> Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
>>>> progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the 
>>>> cell
>>>> it has multiplied in.
>>>>
>>>> AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly 
>>>> managed
>>>> use.
>>
>>> Of course. The side effects might help prevent that though. :-)
>>
>> Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?
>> Jane
>
> Nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, abdominal pains, and headaches. Plus others 
> in
> rare cases.

I seem to have been very lucky!

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:57:40 -0000, Ophelia wrote in post :
<news:7l7oovF3che5nU1@mid.individual.net> :

> "Tim C."  wrote in message 
> news:1dtsqvfi9vjig.351j9yoyedzc.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:21:00 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>> <news:50b2c9fe7aj.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>>
>>> In article <19kita5prqk3t$.gfnlcoaonfnc$.dlg@40tude.net>,
>>>    Tim C.  wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:50:41 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>>>> <news:50b2436144j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>>>
>>>>> Thanks. That ties up pretty well with what I found. Tamiflu slows the
>>>>> progression of the disease within the body because it cannot leave the 
>>>>> cell
>>>>> it has multiplied in.
>>>>>
>>>>> AIuI there is still a potential for creating resistance by badly 
>>>>> managed
>>>>> use.
>>>
>>>> Of course. The side effects might help prevent that though. :-)
>>>
>>> Tell me more! Seriously, I don't understand. What side effects?
>>> Jane
>>
>> Nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, abdominal pains, and headaches. Plus others 
>> in
>> rare cases.
> 
> I seem to have been very lucky!

Well, I suppose most people don't get any, but I've heard (from a number of
reliable sources) the side-effect rate is relatively high. But I have no
real data to prove it. 

-- 
Tim C.

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

> I got put off a while back when this place became a bit of a farce.

ignore the idiots unless its me.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

>> Yes, hello too Adrian, were you lying low through the bankers are *ankers
>> crisis? :-)
> 
> It wasn't my fault!

I believe you! Did you still get your million bonus this year?
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

"Mike.. .  ."  wrote in 
news:1j5agazv72pem$.1b0f1fdg5oguv.dlg@40tude.net:

> Following up to Adrian Tupper 
> 
>> I got put off a while back when this place became a bit of a farce.
> 
> ignore the idiots unless its me.

;-)

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

"Mike.. .  ."  wrote in
news:ymn4j0m6qige.1cws8qtkm6p4b$.dlg@40tude.net: 

> Following up to Adrian Tupper 
> 
>>> Yes, hello too Adrian, were you lying low through the bankers are
>>> *ankers crisis? :-)
>> 
>> It wasn't my fault!
> 
> I believe you! Did you still get your million bonus this year?

I think you're confusing me with someone else!

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

>> I believe you! Did you still get your million bonus this year?
> 
> I think you're confusing me with someone else!

we all know bankers all get £1m bonuses minimum, can you lend us a fiver,
guv?
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

"Mike.. .  ."  wrote in 
news:vdhrbjoe5r53.90vdhsjfhshf.dlg@40tude.net:

> Following up to Adrian Tupper 
> 
>>> I believe you! Did you still get your million bonus this year?
>> 
>> I think you're confusing me with someone else!
> 
> we all know bankers all get £1m bonuses minimum, can you lend us a fiver,
> guv?

Yes, of course.  Here are the terms: 5 year loan, no early repayments, APR 
29.5%.  Now, if you'll just sign here...

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me