Hi All!  Sorry to see this group is so inactive, and I thought I'd post 
to try to break this dry spell.

Today I found a splendid Indian grocery store.  (Sorry.  It won't do you 
UK folks any good, because it is in the Boston, Massachusetts area.) 
Not only was it spacious, bright and well-stocked, but it also had a 
number of cookbooks!  I was just going through the first of four that I 
acquired and thought the following sounded somewhat interesting.  I 
think I'd make sure even a single serving had a nice amount of turmeric 
in it.  It looks like this would lend itself to many variants!

Bread Bhurji (4 servings)
Healthy Breakfast by Tarla Dalal, pp. 76-77.

10 slices whole wehat bread, cubed
1 c low-fat curds (yogurt)
1/4 tsp turmeric powder
1 tsp cumin seeds
1 green chile, slit
3-4  curry leaves
1 tsp grated ginger
1/4 c sliced onions
2 tsp oil
salt to taste
1/4 c chopped coriander [cilantro], for garnish

Combine curds, turmeric and salt [not mentioned before] with 2 Tbsps 
water and mix well.  Add bread cubes and mix well until bread is coated 
with curd muxture.

Heat oil in nonstick pan and add cumin seeds.   When they crackle, add 
the chile, curry leaves, and ginger and saute for a few seconds.  Add 
onion slices and saute until lightly browned.  Add bread and saute over 
low heat, stirring occasionally, until the bread browns lightly.

Serve hot, garnished with coriander.

-- 
Jean B.

On 14 May, 01:23, "Jean B."  wrote:
> Hi All!  Sorry to see this group is so inactive, and I thought I'd post
> to try to break this dry spell.
>
> Today I found a splendid Indian grocery store.  (Sorry.  It won't do you
> UK folks any good, because it is in the Boston, Massachusetts area.)
> Not only was it spacious, bright and well-stocked, but it also had a
> number of cookbooks!  I was just going through the first of four that I
> acquired and thought the following sounded somewhat interesting.  I
> think I'd make sure even a single serving had a nice amount of turmeric
> in it.  It looks like this would lend itself to many variants!
>
> Bread Bhurji (4 servings)
> Healthy Breakfast by Tarla Dalal, pp. 76-77.
>
> 10 slices whole wehat bread, cubed
> 1 c low-fat curds (yogurt)
> 1/4 tsp turmeric powder
> 1 tsp cumin seeds
> 1 green chile, slit
> 3-4  curry leaves
> 1 tsp grated ginger
> 1/4 c sliced onions
> 2 tsp oil
> salt to taste
> 1/4 c chopped coriander [cilantro], for garnish
>
> Combine curds, turmeric and salt [not mentioned before] with 2 Tbsps
> water and mix well.  Add bread cubes and mix well until bread is coated
> with curd muxture.
>
> Heat oil in nonstick pan and add cumin seeds.   When they crackle, add
> the chile, curry leaves, and ginger and saute for a few seconds.  Add
> onion slices and saute until lightly browned.  Add bread and saute over
> low heat, stirring occasionally, until the bread browns lightly.
>
> Serve hot, garnished with coriander.
>
> --
> Jean B.

have you tried this, does the bread not remain soggy? Wonder which
bread is intended. Looks a bit made up to me.
Wazza

wazza wrote:
> On 14 May, 01:23, "Jean B."  wrote:
>> Hi All!  Sorry to see this group is so inactive, and I thought I'd post
>> to try to break this dry spell.
>>
>> Today I found a splendid Indian grocery store.  (Sorry.  It won't do you
>> UK folks any good, because it is in the Boston, Massachusetts area.)
>> Not only was it spacious, bright and well-stocked, but it also had a
>> number of cookbooks!  I was just going through the first of four that I
>> acquired and thought the following sounded somewhat interesting.  I
>> think I'd make sure even a single serving had a nice amount of turmeric
>> in it.  It looks like this would lend itself to many variants!
>>
>> Bread Bhurji (4 servings)
>> Healthy Breakfast by Tarla Dalal, pp. 76-77.
>>
>> 10 slices whole wehat bread, cubed
>> 1 c low-fat curds (yogurt)
>> 1/4 tsp turmeric powder
>> 1 tsp cumin seeds
>> 1 green chile, slit
>> 3-4  curry leaves
>> 1 tsp grated ginger
>> 1/4 c sliced onions
>> 2 tsp oil
>> salt to taste
>> 1/4 c chopped coriander [cilantro], for garnish
>>
>> Combine curds, turmeric and salt [not mentioned before] with 2 Tbsps
>> water and mix well.  Add bread cubes and mix well until bread is coated
>> with curd muxture.
>>
>> Heat oil in nonstick pan and add cumin seeds.   When they crackle, add
>> the chile, curry leaves, and ginger and saute for a few seconds.  Add
>> onion slices and saute until lightly browned.  Add bread and saute over
>> low heat, stirring occasionally, until the bread browns lightly.
>>
>> Serve hot, garnished with coriander.
>>
>> --
>> Jean B.
> 
> have you tried this, does the bread not remain soggy? Wonder which
> bread is intended. Looks a bit made up to me.
> Wazza

No.  It just looked interesting.  Now my mind has turned to 
another bread-based dish, this one sweet:  shahi turka.  Hence the 
query re the quick rabdi.  Now in that dish the bread retained 
some crispness, which was most intriguing.

-- 
Jean B.

On 25 Jun, 14:53, "Jean B."  wrote:
> wazza wrote:
> > On 14 May, 01:23, "Jean B."  wrote:
> >> Hi All!  Sorry to see this group is so inactive, and I thought I'd post
> >> to try to break this dry spell.
>
> >> Today I found a splendid Indian grocery store.  (Sorry.  It won't do you
> >> UK folks any good, because it is in the Boston, Massachusetts area.)
> >> Not only was it spacious, bright and well-stocked, but it also had a
> >> number of cookbooks!  I was just going through the first of four that I
> >> acquired and thought the following sounded somewhat interesting.  I
> >> think I'd make sure even a single serving had a nice amount of turmeric
> >> in it.  It looks like this would lend itself to many variants!
>
> >> Bread Bhurji (4 servings)
> >> Healthy Breakfast by Tarla Dalal, pp. 76-77.
>
> >> 10 slices whole wehat bread, cubed
> >> 1 c low-fat curds (yogurt)
> >> 1/4 tsp turmeric powder
> >> 1 tsp cumin seeds
> >> 1 green chile, slit
> >> 3-4  curry leaves
> >> 1 tsp grated ginger
> >> 1/4 c sliced onions
> >> 2 tsp oil
> >> salt to taste
> >> 1/4 c chopped coriander [cilantro], for garnish
>
> >> Combine curds, turmeric and salt [not mentioned before] with 2 Tbsps
> >> water and mix well.  Add bread cubes and mix well until bread is coated
> >> with curd muxture.
>
> >> Heat oil in nonstick pan and add cumin seeds.   When they crackle, add
> >> the chile, curry leaves, and ginger and saute for a few seconds.  Add
> >> onion slices and saute until lightly browned.  Add bread and saute over
> >> low heat, stirring occasionally, until the bread browns lightly.
>
> >> Serve hot, garnished with coriander.
>
> >> --
> >> Jean B.
>
> > have you tried this, does the bread not remain soggy? Wonder which
> > bread is intended. Looks a bit made up to me.
> > Wazza
>
> No.  It just looked interesting.  Now my mind has turned to
> another bread-based dish, this one sweet:  shahi turka.  Hence the
> query re the quick rabdi.  Now in that dish the bread retained
> some crispness, which was most intriguing.
>
> --
> Jean B.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I always thought Shahi tukra very westernised, as it uses slices of
white yeast bread, definitely not typically Indian, though a good
Indian friend of mine in Bangalore invented a triangular shaped loaf
tin that makes a triangular shaped loaf (obviously!) for sandwiches!!
I have never tried to make tukra, which is similar to bread and butter
pudding. There are several 'Indian' dishes that seem very untypical,
until you find out they originated outside of India (like samosa and
scotch egg (nargisi)) both from Persia, like so many dishes (and
words!)

Quoting from message 

 posted on 25 Jul 2008 by wazza  I would like to add:

> There are several 'Indian' dishes that seem very untypical,
> until you find out they originated outside of India (like samosa and
> scotch egg (nargisi)) both from Persia, like so many dishes (and
> words!)

I have "Food in HIstory" (think that's the title without digging it 
out to check) by Reay Tannerhill but I'm sure there was another, 
published in the 1970s, which gave more detail on ingredients and 
recipes through the ages - anyone aware of this?

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Home Pages and FAQ of uk.food+drink.indian can be viewed at 
.Virtual.  http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones/ufdi/index.html 
StrongArm  Under construction, FAQ, recipes, tips, booklist, links
.RISC PC.  Questions and suggestions please, email or to the newsgroup

wazza wrote:
> On 25 Jun, 14:53, "Jean B."  wrote:
>> wazza wrote:
>>> On 14 May, 01:23, "Jean B."  wrote:
>>>> Hi All!  Sorry to see this group is so inactive, and I thought I'd post
>>>> to try to break this dry spell.
>>>> Today I found a splendid Indian grocery store.  (Sorry.  It won't do you
>>>> UK folks any good, because it is in the Boston, Massachusetts area.)
>>>> Not only was it spacious, bright and well-stocked, but it also had a
>>>> number of cookbooks!  I was just going through the first of four that I
>>>> acquired and thought the following sounded somewhat interesting.  I
>>>> think I'd make sure even a single serving had a nice amount of turmeric
>>>> in it.  It looks like this would lend itself to many variants!
>>>> Bread Bhurji (4 servings)
>>>> Healthy Breakfast by Tarla Dalal, pp. 76-77.
>>>> 10 slices whole wehat bread, cubed
>>>> 1 c low-fat curds (yogurt)
>>>> 1/4 tsp turmeric powder
>>>> 1 tsp cumin seeds
>>>> 1 green chile, slit
>>>> 3-4  curry leaves
>>>> 1 tsp grated ginger
>>>> 1/4 c sliced onions
>>>> 2 tsp oil
>>>> salt to taste
>>>> 1/4 c chopped coriander [cilantro], for garnish
>>>> Combine curds, turmeric and salt [not mentioned before] with 2 Tbsps
>>>> water and mix well.  Add bread cubes and mix well until bread is coated
>>>> with curd muxture.
>>>> Heat oil in nonstick pan and add cumin seeds.   When they crackle, add
>>>> the chile, curry leaves, and ginger and saute for a few seconds.  Add
>>>> onion slices and saute until lightly browned.  Add bread and saute over
>>>> low heat, stirring occasionally, until the bread browns lightly.
>>>> Serve hot, garnished with coriander.
>>>> --
>>>> Jean B.
>>> have you tried this, does the bread not remain soggy? Wonder which
>>> bread is intended. Looks a bit made up to me.
>>> Wazza
>> No.  It just looked interesting.  Now my mind has turned to
>> another bread-based dish, this one sweet:  shahi turka.  Hence the
>> query re the quick rabdi.  Now in that dish the bread retained
>> some crispness, which was most intriguing.
>>
>> --
>> Jean B.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> 
> I always thought Shahi tukra very westernised, as it uses slices of
> white yeast bread, definitely not typically Indian, though a good
> Indian friend of mine in Bangalore invented a triangular shaped loaf
> tin that makes a triangular shaped loaf (obviously!) for sandwiches!!
> I have never tried to make tukra, which is similar to bread and butter
> pudding. There are several 'Indian' dishes that seem very untypical,
> until you find out they originated outside of India (like samosa and
> scotch egg (nargisi)) both from Persia, like so many dishes (and
> words!)

But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate 
component of another country's cuisine?  Think of Italy and 
tomatoes (sorry that's OT, but it's the example that came to 
mind).  Or, on topic, of Indian cuisine without the chiles...

-- 
Jean B.

In message , Jean B. 
writes

>But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>of another country's cuisine?

>Think of Italy and tomatoes

Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...

        surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?

        ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
-- 
Rex M F Smith

Quoting from message <gwhsWeBy$gjIFwkL@gehena.demon.co.uk>
 posted on 28 Jul 2008 by Rex M F Smith  I would like to add:

> In message , Jean B. 
> writes

>>But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>>of another country's cuisine?

>>Think of Italy and tomatoes

> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...

>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?

>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??

ditto tomatoes in Indian cuisine.

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Home Pages and FAQ of uk.food+drink.indian can be viewed at 
.Virtual.  http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones/ufdi/index.html 
StrongArm  Under construction, FAQ, recipes, tips, booklist, links
.RISC PC.  Questions and suggestions please, email or to the newsgroup

Rex M F Smith wrote:
> In message , Jean B. 
> writes
> 
>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>> of another country's cuisine?
> 
>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
> 
> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...
> 
>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?
> 
>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??

That's the question!

-- 
Jean B.

Elaine Jones wrote:
> Quoting from message <gwhsWeBy$gjIFwkL@gehena.demon.co.uk>
>  posted on 28 Jul 2008 by Rex M F Smith  I would like to add:
> 
>> In message , Jean B. 
>> writes
> 
>>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>>> of another country's cuisine?
> 
>>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
> 
>> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...
> 
>>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?
> 
>>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
> 
> ditto tomatoes in Indian cuisine.
> 
Those too.  Now I am really wondering about "authenticity" 
especially as it related to the introduction of nonindigenous 
foods.  Of course, one can then go back to antiquity with this....

-- 
Jean B.

"Jean B."  wrote in message 
news:6f8v5iFa5i61U19@mid.individual.net...
> Elaine Jones wrote:
>> Quoting from message <gwhsWeBy$gjIFwkL@gehena.demon.co.uk>
>>  posted on 28 Jul 2008 by Rex M F Smith  I would like to add:
>>
>>> In message , Jean B. 
>>> writes
>>
>>>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>>>> of another country's cuisine?
>>
>>>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
>>
>>> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...
>>
>>>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?
>>
>>>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
>>
>> ditto tomatoes in Indian cuisine.
>>
> Those too.  Now I am really wondering about "authenticity" especially as 
> it related to the introduction of nonindigenous foods.  Of course, one can 
> then go back to antiquity with this....

It's something that came up with seventeenth century re-enactment last year.

So I actually did some research,  mainly because it was me that caused the 
problem.

Chilli reached parts of India very early via the Portuguese,  and, as far as 
we could find out,  the original vindaloo/vindalu was a spicy Portuguese 
dish made with wine vinegar and garlic (vin and aloo) and was a hot pickle 
used in Portuguese ships as rations for the long trip home.

It seems to have included chilli by the mid to late sixteenth century...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Jean  wrote  on Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:32:38 -0400:

> Rex M F Smith wrote:
>> In message , Jean B.
>>  writes
>>
>>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate
>>> component of another country's cuisine?
>>
>>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
>>
>> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian
>> cuisine ...
>>
>>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World
>> species?
>>
>>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??

> That's the question!

You'll have to define your time limit for authenticity! Otherwise, all 
of us culinary patriots should sit around outdoor fires broiling local 
meat on sticks.

The introduction of new foods has gone on for millennia. It is said the 
Romans (or was it the Normans?) brought the rabbit to Britain. Citrus 
fruits, sugar cane, turmeric, cloves, ginger and black pepper came to 
Europe from the east. This usually starts a chauvinist fight but noodles 
also came from the east even if the Romans had hard wheat (durum).

The Spanish and Portuguese brought American chilies, tomatoes, 
pineapples, potatoes, cocoa and corn (maize) to Europe, then India and 
so on. The modern cultivated strawberry is not the same as the Alpine 
strawberry but a hybrid whose ancestors came from Chile.

-- 

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Quoting from message <g6nsgc$9cn$1@registered.motzarella.org>
 posted on 29 Jul 2008 by James Silverton
 I would like to add:

> You'll have to define your time limit for authenticity! Otherwise, all
> of us culinary patriots should sit around outdoor fires broiling local
> meat on sticks.

Kebabs??

> The introduction of new foods has gone on for millennia. It is said the
> Romans (or was it the Normans?) brought the rabbit to Britain. Citrus
> fruits, sugar cane, turmeric, cloves, ginger and black pepper came to
> Europe from the east. This usually starts a chauvinist fight but noodles
> also came from the east even if the Romans had hard wheat (durum).

Many people don't realise just how far Norse traders travelled 
overland/by river and that spices such as ginger were known in Saxon 
England - delivered by Norse traders (rather than Viking raiders).

When the copper mines on the Great Orme were extensively investigated 
in the 1980s the archeologists realised that history books would have 
to be rewritten as western Britain was obviously trading with 
Phoenicia and points east many many centuries earlier than had 
previously been supposed and millenia before the Roman invasion.

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Home Pages and FAQ of uk.food+drink.indian can be viewed at 
.Virtual.  http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones/ufdi/index.html 
StrongArm  Under construction, FAQ, recipes, tips, booklist, links
.RISC PC.  Questions and suggestions please, email or to the newsgroup

On 29 Jul, 17:35, "Jean B."  wrote:
> Elaine Jones wrote:
> > Quoting from message <gwhsWeBy$gjIF...@gehena.demon.co.uk>
> >  posted on 28 Jul 2008 by Rex M F Smith  I would like to add:
>
> >> In message , Jean B.  >> writes
>
> >>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
> >>> of another country's cuisine?
>
> >>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
>
> >> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...
>
> >>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?
>
> >>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
>
> > ditto tomatoes in Indian cuisine.
>
> Those too.  Now I am really wondering about "authenticity"
> especially as it related to the introduction of nonindigenous
> foods.  Of course, one can then go back to antiquity with this....
>
> --
> Jean B.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

One definition of authentic states 'Of undisputed origin; genuine;
Conforming to fact and therefore worthy of trust, reliance, or belief
'.

If one is talking about a recipe, which is what we are discussing
here? then any ingredient would seem to be acceptable, though, from
what had gone before, would not be typical, or say traditional, not in
the true spirit. Thus, the recent inclusion of tomato and/or potatoes
in (most!) Indian recipes is not true to the traditional recipes, nor
is the use of a sprinkle of garam masala or coriander leaf at the end
of cooking. It can become obvious what was traditional (and do we
describe this as authentic? probably) and what is the trend today.
It can be argued that 'curry' is an Indian thing, but the Romans had
the spices and knowledge to put together a very similar dish. Were
they Roman recipes? or adoption and adaptations of other peoples’
cuisine? probably.
And what of the Indian invaders? Do we consider Moghal cuisine to be
Indian? Probably. The great cuisines of Delhi and Lucknow were
developed by the chefs of the Moghal courts, essentially rulers from
outside of India but their cuisine is totally accepted as being
'Indian' because they originated in India., or did they? Most North
Indian dishes have very close ties with Persia, as did Egypt and the
countries of the Maghreb and the Levant.

Elaine  wrote  on Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:38:50 +0100:


> Many people don't realise just how far Norse traders travelled
> overland/by river and that spices such as ginger were known in
> Saxon England - delivered by Norse traders (rather than Viking
> raiders).

Just in passing, Norse traders were not always distinguishable from 
vikings. They were suspected of indulging in a little piracy if the 
opportunity arose.

> When the copper mines on the Great Orme were extensively
> investigated in the 1980s the archeologists realised that
> history books would have to be rewritten as western Britain
> was obviously trading with Phoenicia and points east many many
> centuries earlier than had previously been supposed and
> millenia before the Roman invasion.

There's no real evidence of the introduction of chilli peppers to Europe 
before Columbus so despite Wazza, I don't think the Romans could have 
made much of a "curry". However, the Romans seem to have developed 
something like Southeast Asian Nuoc Mam fermented fish sauce. They 
called it "garum" and were said to have used it like ketchup.
-- 

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

William Black wrote:
> "Jean B."  wrote in message 
> news:6f8v5iFa5i61U19@mid.individual.net...
>> Elaine Jones wrote:
>>> Quoting from message <gwhsWeBy$gjIFwkL@gehena.demon.co.uk>
>>>  posted on 28 Jul 2008 by Rex M F Smith  I would like to add:
>>>
>>>> In message , Jean B. 
>>>> writes
>>>>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>>>>> of another country's cuisine?
>>>>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
>>>> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...
>>>>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?
>>>>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
>>> ditto tomatoes in Indian cuisine.
>>>
>> Those too.  Now I am really wondering about "authenticity" especially as 
>> it related to the introduction of nonindigenous foods.  Of course, one can 
>> then go back to antiquity with this....
> 
> It's something that came up with seventeenth century re-enactment last year.
> 
> So I actually did some research,  mainly because it was me that caused the 
> problem.
> 
> Chilli reached parts of India very early via the Portuguese,  and, as far as 
> we could find out,  the original vindaloo/vindalu was a spicy Portuguese 
> dish made with wine vinegar and garlic (vin and aloo) and was a hot pickle 
> used in Portuguese ships as rations for the long trip home.
> 
> It seems to have included chilli by the mid to late sixteenth century...
> 
Thanks.  This type of research can be so interesting--although I 
find myself trying to trace back to prehistoric times.  :-)

-- 
Jean B.

James Silverton wrote:
> Jean  wrote  on Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:32:38 -0400:
> 
>> Rex M F Smith wrote:
>>> In message , Jean B.
>>>  writes
>>>
>>>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate
>>>> component of another country's cuisine?
>>>
>>>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
>>>
>>> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian
>>> cuisine ...
>>>
>>>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World
>>> species?
>>>
>>>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
> 
>> That's the question!
> 
> You'll have to define your time limit for authenticity! Otherwise, all 
> of us culinary patriots should sit around outdoor fires broiling local 
> meat on sticks.
> 
> The introduction of new foods has gone on for millennia. It is said the 
> Romans (or was it the Normans?) brought the rabbit to Britain. Citrus 
> fruits, sugar cane, turmeric, cloves, ginger and black pepper came to 
> Europe from the east. This usually starts a chauvinist fight but noodles 
> also came from the east even if the Romans had hard wheat (durum).
> 
> The Spanish and Portuguese brought American chilies, tomatoes, 
> pineapples, potatoes, cocoa and corn (maize) to Europe, then India and 
> so on. The modern cultivated strawberry is not the same as the Alpine 
> strawberry but a hybrid whose ancestors came from Chile.
> 
That's the problem, isn't it?  As I said, I end up trying to trace 
back to antiquity.  The concept of authenticity is very tricky!

-- 
Jean B.

wazza wrote:
> On 29 Jul, 17:35, "Jean B."  wrote:
>> Elaine Jones wrote:
>>> Quoting from message <gwhsWeBy$gjIF...@gehena.demon.co.uk>
>>>  posted on 28 Jul 2008 by Rex M F Smith  I would like to add:
>>>> In message , Jean B. 
>>>> writes
>>>>> But at what point does an adopted food become a legitimate component
>>>>> of another country's cuisine?
>>>>> Think of Italy and tomatoes
>>>> Think of UK and potatoes ... which are in *some* Indian cuisine ...
>>>>         surely chili also (being related) is a New World species?
>>>>         ?Is 300 - 400 years long enough :-)  ??
>>> ditto tomatoes in Indian cuisine.
>> Those too.  Now I am really wondering about "authenticity"
>> especially as it related to the introduction of nonindigenous
>> foods.  Of course, one can then go back to antiquity with this....
>>
>> --
>> Jean B.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> 
> One definition of authentic states 'Of undisputed origin; genuine;
> Conforming to fact and therefore worthy of trust, reliance, or belief
> '.
> 
> If one is talking about a recipe, which is what we are discussing
> here? then any ingredient would seem to be acceptable, though, from
> what had gone before, would not be typical, or say traditional, not in
> the true spirit. Thus, the recent inclusion of tomato and/or potatoes
> in (most!) Indian recipes is not true to the traditional recipes, nor
> is the use of a sprinkle of garam masala or coriander leaf at the end
> of cooking. It can become obvious what was traditional (and do we
> describe this as authentic? probably) and what is the trend today.
> It can be argued that 'curry' is an Indian thing, but the Romans had
> the spices and knowledge to put together a very similar dish. Were
> they Roman recipes? or adoption and adaptations of other peoples’
> cuisine? probably.
> And what of the Indian invaders? Do we consider Moghal cuisine to be
> Indian? Probably. The great cuisines of Delhi and Lucknow were
> developed by the chefs of the Moghal courts, essentially rulers from
> outside of India but their cuisine is totally accepted as being
> 'Indian' because they originated in India., or did they? Most North
> Indian dishes have very close ties with Persia, as did Egypt and the
> countries of the Maghreb and the Levant.

So interesting...  And it's nice to see some activity here.  :-)

-- 
Jean B.

"James Silverton"  wrote in
news:g6nsgc$9cn$1@registered.motzarella.org: 

> You'll have to define your time limit for authenticity! Otherwise,
> all of us culinary patriots should sit around outdoor fires
> broiling local meat on sticks.

Do not be such a wimp, Sir. We should resist the adoption of modern 
conveniences such as fire. Bah. Fires, indeed. We should adopt as 
stringent a criterion for food as we do for language. Burn the books 
of that Johnny-come-lately Shakespeare. He wrote in a language 
polluted by the foreign devils who brought their vile languages to 
British shores. Down with Wordsworth. Down with Tennyson. Down with 
Churchill. Down with Wodehouse, that slaughterer of an already 
corrupted language. Burn their books, too.

And don't you dare roast anything on that fire, either.

I think authenticity is a criterion for the "owners" of a cuisine. If 
the broad community accepts a dish as one of its own, that dish is 
authentic for that community. It does not matter where that dish came 
from. It does not matter where it was invented, it does not matter who 
invented it. It does not matter how long it has been around. It does 
not matter how long the ingredients have been around in the community. 
If the community accepts a dish, that dish is theirs.

Cuisines evolve, as languages evolve.

In the mangled and corrupted language we now reprehensibly accept as 
English, that enabler of corruption and disfigurement of his heritage 
wrote:
 "That which we call a rose
  By any other name would smell as sweet."

Down with the fellow who used your mangled and corrupted language to 
put that glorious ten or twenty lines in the head of a child who 
showed no other signs of having any common sense at all. Oh, sorry, 
where was I now? 

Ah, yes. I would go farther. I would say that if you could assemble a 
rose by the modern sub-molecular technique of replication, as shown on 
the American documentary series Star Trek, the rose so assembled is 
indeed a rose, as long as it is not distinguishable from that which we 
call a rose. Oh, yes, provided it doth smell as sweet.

In effect, I would go so far as to say that not even technique 
matters. If the community accepts the end product and gives it a place 
in the shade of their umbrella, the end product is authentic, 
regardless of how it was made. A community is entitled to use a larger 
umbrella.

There are exceptions, of course. The Bengalis over on the west bank of 
the Padma, those reprehensible supporters of the Mohun Bagan football 
team, put sugar in their curries. I mean, really. The barbarians are 
at the gate. The downfall of civilization is at hand.

- Shankar (who has not been to a Mohun Bagan-East Bengal match since                              
	      1978 or so but still knows right from wrong)

"Shankar Bhattacharyya"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9AECE39FC9EC0sbhattacatattnet@127.0.0.1...

> In effect, I would go so far as to say that not even technique
> matters. If the community accepts the end product and gives it a place
> in the shade of their umbrella, the end product is authentic,
> regardless of how it was made. A community is entitled to use a larger
> umbrella.
>
> There are exceptions, of course. The Bengalis over on the west bank of
> the Padma, those reprehensible supporters of the Mohun Bagan football
> team, put sugar in their curries. I mean, really. The barbarians are
> at the gate. The downfall of civilization is at hand.

How do you feel about the Bombay version of the  vegetarian Club Sandwich?

I rather like them...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On 30 Jul, 19:12, "James Silverton" 
wrote:
>  Elaine  wrote  on Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:38:50 퍝:
>
> > Many people don't realise just how far Norse traders travelled
> > overland/by river and that spices such as ginger were known in
> > Saxon England - delivered by Norse traders (rather than Viking
> > raiders).
>
> Just in passing, Norse traders were not always distinguishable from
> vikings. They were suspected of indulging in a little piracy if the
> opportunity arose.
>
> > When the copper mines on the Great Orme were extensively
> > investigated in the 1980s the archeologists realised that
> > history books would have to be rewritten as western Britain
> > was obviously trading with Phoenicia and points east many many
> > centuries earlier than had previously been supposed and
> > millenia before the Roman invasion.
>
> There's no real evidence of the introduction of chilli peppers to Europe
> before Columbus so despite Wazza, I don't think the Romans could have
> made much of a "curry". However, the Romans seem to have developed
> something like Southeast Asian Nuoc Mam fermented fish sauce. They
> called it "garum" and were said to have used it like ketchup.
> --
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

I didn't mention chillies, or any spices, but I can list the ones the
Romans were using, if you like. Don't forget Columbus was looking for
a 'short cut' to India, to get pepper. Before chillies, only pepper
was used as a source of heat, and some recipes exist to this day that
use pepper as the only source of pungency.

And dishes can be authentic, although not traditional.

"William Black"  wrote in
news:g6v5mi$t6$1@registered.motzarella.org: 

> How do you feel about the Bombay version of the  vegetarian Club
> Sandwich? 
> 
> I rather like them...

I am not sure I know what either is. Perhaps a description will help.

I might mention that there are now Indians in the US in numbers and 
concentrations sufficient to support regional restaurants, Indian- 
Chinese restaurants and, a recent arrival in my neighbourhood, a bakery 
selling Indian-style sandwiches and puff pastries with curried stuffings 
in the Indian style. I am now working my way through their small but 
satisfactory menu.

- Shankar

"Shankar Bhattacharyya"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9AEF8716D6C78sbhattacatattnet@127.0.0.1...
> "William Black"  wrote in
> news:g6v5mi$t6$1@registered.motzarella.org:
>
>> How do you feel about the Bombay version of the  vegetarian Club
>> Sandwich?
>>
>> I rather like them...
>
> I am not sure I know what either is. Perhaps a description will help.

It's usualluy a trippledecker sandwich topped wity toasted cheese that 
contains a vriety of roasted and boiled vegetables,  including sliced 
potato,  with a smallish quantity rather nice sauce spread on the enner 
slice of bread.

Served warm rather tha hot.

> I might mention that there are now Indians in the US in numbers and
> concentrations sufficient to support regional restaurants, Indian-
> Chinese restaurants and, a recent arrival in my neighbourhood, a bakery
> selling Indian-style sandwiches and puff pastries with curried stuffings
> in the Indian style. I am now working my way through their small but
> satisfactory menu.

Then I would ask them to make you one.  I've never seen one outside India.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

.

Shankar Bhattacharyya wrote:
> "William Black"  wrote in
> news:g6v5mi$t6$1@registered.motzarella.org: 
> 
>> How do you feel about the Bombay version of the  vegetarian Club
>> Sandwich? 
>>
>> I rather like them...
> 
> I am not sure I know what either is. Perhaps a description will help.
> 
> I might mention that there are now Indians in the US in numbers and 
> concentrations sufficient to support regional restaurants, Indian- 
> Chinese restaurants and, a recent arrival in my neighbourhood, a bakery 
> selling Indian-style sandwiches and puff pastries with curried stuffings 
> in the Indian style. I am now working my way through their small but 
> satisfactory menu.
> 
> - Shankar
> 
Hot Breads, perchance?

-- 
Jean B.

"Jean B."  wrote in
news:6fsc6hFci6amU22@mid.individual.net: 

> Shankar Bhattacharyya wrote:

>> I might mention that there are now Indians in the US in numbers
>> and concentrations sufficient to support regional restaurants,
>> Indian- Chinese restaurants and, a recent arrival in my
>> neighbourhood, a bakery selling Indian-style sandwiches and puff
>> pastries with curried stuffings in the Indian style. I am now
>> working my way through their small but satisfactory menu.
>> 
> Hot Breads, perchance?


Yes, That's the name. Unless you are a neighbour, I conclude this is a 
chain. I am not sure there are sufficiently large concentrations of 
Indians in enough places in the US to support the model for a chain.

- Shankar

Shankar Bhattacharyya  writes:

> Unless you are a neighbour, I conclude this is a chain.

Yep: http://www.hotbreads.com/

-- 
Adam Sampson                          <http://offog.org/>

Shankar Bhattacharyya wrote:
> "Jean B."  wrote in
> news:6fsc6hFci6amU22@mid.individual.net: 
> 
>> Shankar Bhattacharyya wrote:
> 
>>> I might mention that there are now Indians in the US in numbers
>>> and concentrations sufficient to support regional restaurants,
>>> Indian- Chinese restaurants and, a recent arrival in my
>>> neighbourhood, a bakery selling Indian-style sandwiches and puff
>>> pastries with curried stuffings in the Indian style. I am now
>>> working my way through their small but satisfactory menu.
>>>
>> Hot Breads, perchance?
> 
> 
> Yes, That's the name. Unless you are a neighbour, I conclude this is a 
> chain. I am not sure there are sufficiently large concentrations of 
> Indians in enough places in the US to support the model for a chain.
> 
> - Shankar
> 
I don't think we are neighbors.  I go to the one in Woburn, 
Massachusetts.  My daughter frequently has their buns for 
breakfast during vacation or takes them for school lunch.  (*I* am 
not supposed to be eating such things right now.)

-- 
Jean B.