I am currently knitting a new T-Shirt for Chris. You know the one - 
"The Dollar! Told you so!"  Today's Independent has an article and a 
Leader discussing the demise of the dollar. You can find it here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

or 

here::


Exclusive report by Robert Fisk
The demise of the dollar
In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have 
launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the 
US currency for oil trading
By Robert Fisk
Tuesday, 6 October 2009
Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would 
henceforth be held in euros rather
In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, 
Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – 
to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of 
currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold 
and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf 
Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and 
Qatar.
Secret meetings have already been held by finance ministers and central 
bank governors in Russia, China, Japan and Brazil to work on the 
scheme, which will mean that oil will no longer be priced in dollars.
The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese 
banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in 
gold prices, but it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar 
markets within nine years.
The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place – although 
they have not discovered the details – are sure to fight this 
international cabal which will include hitherto loyal allies Japan and 
the Gulf Arabs. Against the background to these currency meetings, Sun 
Bigan, China's former special envoy to the Middle East, has warned 
there is a risk of deepening divisions between China and the US over 
influence and oil in the Middle East. "Bilateral quarrels and clashes 
are unavoidable," he told the Asia and Africa Review. "We cannot lower 
vigilance against hostility in the Middle East over energy interests 
and security."
This sounds like a dangerous prediction of a future economic war 
between the US and China over Middle East oil – yet again turning the 
region's conflicts into a battle for great power supremacy. China uses 
more oil incrementally than the US because its growth is less energy 
efficient. The transitional currency in the move away from dollars, 
according to Chinese banking sources, may well be gold. An indication 
of the huge amounts involved can be gained from the wealth of Abu 
Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar who together hold an estimated 
$2.1 trillion in dollar reserves.
The decline of American economic power linked to the current global 
recession was implicitly acknowledged by the World Bank president 
Robert Zoellick. "One of the legacies of this crisis may be a 
recognition of changed economic power relations," he said in Istanbul 
ahead of meetings this week of the IMF and World Bank. But it is 
China's extraordinary new financial power – along with past anger among 
oil-producing and oil-consuming nations at America's power to interfere 
in the international financial system – which has prompted the latest 
discussions involving the Gulf states.
Brazil has shown interest in collaborating in non-dollar oil payments, 
along with India. Indeed, China appears to be the most enthusiastic of 
all the financial powers involved, not least because of its enormous 
trade with the Middle East.
China imports 60 per cent of its oil, much of it from the Middle East 
and Russia. The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq – 
blocked by the US until this year – and since 2008 have held an $8bn 
agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources. 
China has oil deals in Sudan (where it has substituted for US 
interests) and has been negotiating for oil concessions with Libya, 
where all such contracts are joint ventures.
Furthermore, Chinese exports to the region now account for no fewer 
than 10 per cent of the imports of every country in the Middle East, 
including a huge range of products from cars to weapon systems, food, 
clothes, even dolls. In a clear sign of China's growing financial 
muscle, the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude 
Trichet, yesterday pleaded with Beijing to let the yuan appreciate 
against a sliding dollar and, by extension, loosen China's reliance on 
US monetary policy, to help rebalance the world economy and ease upward 
pressure on the euro.
Ever since the Bretton Woods agreements – the accords after the Second 
World War which bequeathed the architecture for the modern 
international financial system – America's trading partners have been 
left to cope with the impact of Washington's control and, in more 
recent years, the hegemony of the dollar as the dominant global reserve 
currency.
The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain 
to stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from 
the dollar. But Chinese banking sources say their discussions have gone 
too far to be blocked now. "The Russians will eventually bring in the 
rouble to the basket of currencies," a prominent Hong Kong broker told 
The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will come into 
the euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use the US 
dollar."
Chinese financial sources believe President Barack Obama is too busy 
fixing the US economy to concentrate on the extraordinary implications 
of the transition from the dollar in nine years' time. The current 
deadline for the currency transition is 2018.
The US discussed the trend briefly at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh; the 
Chinese Central Bank governor and other officials have been worrying 
aloud about the dollar for years. Their problem is that much of their 
national wealth is tied up in dollar assets.
"These plans will change the face of international financial 
transactions," one Chinese banker said. "America and Britain must be 
very worried. You will know how worried by the thunder of denials this 
news will generate."
Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would 
henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of 
course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its 
oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein 
trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

"Krak"  wrote in message 
news:hae0lk$5kn$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>I am currently knitting a new T-Shirt for Chris. You know the one - "The 
>Dollar! Told you so!"  Today's Independent has an article and a Leader 
>discussing the demise of the dollar. You can find it here:
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html
>
> or
> here::
>
>
> Exclusive report by Robert Fisk
> The demise of the dollar
> In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have 
> launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US 
> currency for oil trading
> By Robert Fisk
> Tuesday, 6 October 2009
> Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would 
> henceforth be held in euros rather
> In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf 
> Arabs are planning - along with China, Russia, Japan and France - to end 
> dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies 
> including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, 
> unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, 
> including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.
> Secret meetings have already been held by finance ministers and central 
> bank governors in Russia, China, Japan and Brazil to work on the scheme, 
> which will mean that oil will no longer be priced in dollars.
> The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese 
> banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold 
> prices, but it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar markets 
> within nine years.
> The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place - although they 
> have not discovered the details - are sure to fight this international 
> cabal which will include hitherto loyal allies Japan and the Gulf Arabs. 
> Against the background to these currency meetings, Sun Bigan, China's 
> former special envoy to the Middle East, has warned there is a risk of 
> deepening divisions between China and the US over influence and oil in the 
> Middle East. "Bilateral quarrels and clashes are unavoidable," he told the 
> Asia and Africa Review. "We cannot lower vigilance against hostility in 
> the Middle East over energy interests and security."
> This sounds like a dangerous prediction of a future economic war between 
> the US and China over Middle East oil - yet again turning the region's 
> conflicts into a battle for great power supremacy. China uses more oil 
> incrementally than the US because its growth is less energy efficient. The 
> transitional currency in the move away from dollars, according to Chinese 
> banking sources, may well be gold. An indication of the huge amounts 
> involved can be gained from the wealth of Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait 
> and Qatar who together hold an estimated $2.1 trillion in dollar reserves.
> The decline of American economic power linked to the current global 
> recession was implicitly acknowledged by the World Bank president Robert 
> Zoellick. "One of the legacies of this crisis may be a recognition of 
> changed economic power relations," he said in Istanbul ahead of meetings 
> this week of the IMF and World Bank. But it is China's extraordinary new 
> financial power - along with past anger among oil-producing and 
> oil-consuming nations at America's power to interfere in the international 
> financial system - which has prompted the latest discussions involving the 
> Gulf states.
> Brazil has shown interest in collaborating in non-dollar oil payments, 
> along with India. Indeed, China appears to be the most enthusiastic of all 
> the financial powers involved, not least because of its enormous trade 
> with the Middle East.
> China imports 60 per cent of its oil, much of it from the Middle East and 
> Russia. The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq - blocked by 
> the US until this year - and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with 
> Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources. China has oil deals 
> in Sudan (where it has substituted for US interests) and has been 
> negotiating for oil concessions with Libya, where all such contracts are 
> joint ventures.
> Furthermore, Chinese exports to the region now account for no fewer than 
> 10 per cent of the imports of every country in the Middle East, including 
> a huge range of products from cars to weapon systems, food, clothes, even 
> dolls. In a clear sign of China's growing financial muscle, the president 
> of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, yesterday pleaded with 
> Beijing to let the yuan appreciate against a sliding dollar and, by 
> extension, loosen China's reliance on US monetary policy, to help 
> rebalance the world economy and ease upward pressure on the euro.
> Ever since the Bretton Woods agreements - the accords after the Second 
> World War which bequeathed the architecture for the modern international 
> financial system - America's trading partners have been left to cope with 
> the impact of Washington's control and, in more recent years, the hegemony 
> of the dollar as the dominant global reserve currency.
> The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to 
> stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the 
> dollar. But Chinese banking sources say their discussions have gone too 
> far to be blocked now. "The Russians will eventually bring in the rouble 
> to the basket of currencies," a prominent Hong Kong broker told The 
> Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will come into the 
> euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use the US 
> dollar."
> Chinese financial sources believe President Barack Obama is too busy 
> fixing the US economy to concentrate on the extraordinary implications of 
> the transition from the dollar in nine years' time. The current deadline 
> for the currency transition is 2018.
> The US discussed the trend briefly at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh; the 
> Chinese Central Bank governor and other officials have been worrying aloud 
> about the dollar for years. Their problem is that much of their national 
> wealth is tied up in dollar assets.
> "These plans will change the face of international financial 
> transactions," one Chinese banker said. "America and Britain must be very 
> worried. You will know how worried by the thunder of denials this news 
> will generate."
> Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would 
> henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of 
> course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil 
> in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted 
> his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.
>
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html
>

So you'll have to buy their money in order to buy their oil?  Why didn't 
they do that years ago?

I don't know... what are they going to fight over when all the oil is 
gone?......

TWP

"Krak"  wrote ...

>I am currently knitting a new T-Shirt for Chris. You know the one - "The 
>Dollar! Told you so!"

It has been on the cards for a long time and the world is changing. The 
dollar only really gained its supremacy in the wake of WW2 and the merit for 
that is at best dubious.

Many of the things which people believed, even held as self-evident and 
unchangeable - "You cannot beat the American military machine", "the dollar 
is the de-facto currency", "America is the number one super-power and global 
influence" - are being re-assessed. America herself has played a large part 
in bringing that re-assessment about.

While change has been perceptible for decades, it has dramatically hastened 
in the last decade, and notably amongst those which America 'doesn't see eye 
to eye with'; the Middle East, Latin America, China, Russia, and 'Europe'. 
In many ways the geopolitical world can now be seen as "America" and "The 
Rest" with a few pledging allegiance to one side or the other, or simply 
standing back to see which way the wind blows.

American 'dominance' seems all but over, and that may turn out to be GWB's 
greatest legacy. From announcing his "Crusade" against the Middle East, his 
demonisation of "Old Europe" - Germany and France in particular - ignoring 
and opposing the UN collective, and failing to recognise emergent economies 
and powers, America has made herself somewhat isolated while the rest of the 
world has simply moved on by itself.

Just as Britain is in a no-man's land - not fully committing to 'Europe', 
clutching on to the thin thread of 'the special relationship' with America - 
America is going to find herself more outside than in if she doesn't change 
and embrace the emerging new world order. Like Britain, America has to 
accept that domination is good while it lasts but has to accept it cannot 
last for ever. Empires rise and empires fall and it seems we are now moving 
into something more akin to a global collective. It would be interesting to 
know how it pans-out in a hundred or so years.

On 2009-10-06 21:02:54 +0200, "The Happy Hippy" 
 said:

> "Krak"  wrote ...
> 
>> I am currently knitting a new T-Shirt for Chris. You know the one - "The
>> Dollar! Told you so!"
> 
> It has been on the cards for a long time and the world is changing. The
> dollar only really gained its supremacy in the wake of WW2 and the merit for
> that is at best dubious.
> 
> Many of the things which people believed, even held as self-evident and
> unchangeable - "You cannot beat the American military machine", "the dollar
> is the de-facto currency", "America is the number one super-power and global
> influence" - are being re-assessed. America herself has played a large part
> in bringing that re-assessment about.
> 
> While change has been perceptible for decades, it has dramatically hastened
> in the last decade, and notably amongst those which America 'doesn't see eye
> to eye with'; the Middle East, Latin America, China, Russia, and 'Europe'.
> In many ways the geopolitical world can now be seen as "America" and "The
> Rest" with a few pledging allegiance to one side or the other, or simply
> standing back to see which way the wind blows.
> 
> American 'dominance' seems all but over, and that may turn out to be GWB's
> greatest legacy. From announcing his "Crusade" against the Middle East, his
> demonisation of "Old Europe" - Germany and France in particular - ignoring
> and opposing the UN collective, and failing to recognise emergent economies
> and powers, America has made herself somewhat isolated while the rest of the
> world has simply moved on by itself.
> 
> Just as Britain is in a no-man's land - not fully committing to 'Europe',
> clutching on to the thin thread of 'the special relationship' with America -
> America is going to find herself more outside than in if she doesn't change
> and embrace the emerging new world order. Like Britain, America has to
> accept that domination is good while it lasts but has to accept it cannot
> last for ever. Empires rise and empires fall and it seems we are now moving
> into something more akin to a global collective. It would be interesting to
> know how it pans-out in a hundred or so years.

I think that you are in general correct, although I would set the time 
scale significantly lower.

A quote that I found particularly interesting was, "The Chinese 
believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out 
of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar". 
And all the time the Brits thought they stayed out because they wanted 
to stay out.

And you, TWP, no doubt were startled to hear that, “a prominent Hong 
Kong broker told The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle 
and will come into the euro. They have no choice because they won't be 
able to use the US dollar."

"Krak"  wrote ...

[snip]

> A quote that I found particularly interesting was, "The Chinese believe, 
> for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro 
> in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar". And all the 
> time the Brits thought they stayed out because they wanted to stay out.

That Britain may have obliged I can accept though don't know how true it is; 
it has been said that Iraq's planned move into the petro-Euro was the final 
straw regarding Saddam, and Iran was reportedly being threatened for its 
adoption of the Euro.

I think Brits are about equally split on the issue. If they'd called it "a 
pound" and stuck HM Queen's head on it, we'd have adopted the Euro years ago 
:-)


> And you, TWP, no doubt were startled to hear that, "a prominent Hong Kong 
> broker told The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will 
> come into the euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use 
> the US dollar."

As we buy US Dollars, we can buy Euros, or Yuan. Doesn't mean we have to 
adopt that currency as our own ;-)

"Krak"  wrote ...

>I am currently knitting a new T-Shirt for Chris. You know the one - "The 
>Dollar! Told you so!"

A related thing is that there has been, since mid-2008, and still is, talk 
of the dollar being officially devalued within the next twelve months or so. 
China has notably been divesting itself of US dollars over quite a time, 
seemingly slowly enough not to cause many major ripples.

"Krak"  wrote in message 
news:hag93i$chl$03$1@news.t-online.com...
> On 2009-10-06 21:02:54 +0200, "The Happy Hippy" 
>  said:
>
>> "Krak"  wrote ...
>>
>>> I am currently knitting a new T-Shirt for Chris. You know the one - "The
>>> Dollar! Told you so!"
>>
>> It has been on the cards for a long time and the world is changing. The
>> dollar only really gained its supremacy in the wake of WW2 and the merit 
>> for
>> that is at best dubious.
>>
>> Many of the things which people believed, even held as self-evident and
>> unchangeable - "You cannot beat the American military machine", "the 
>> dollar
>> is the de-facto currency", "America is the number one super-power and 
>> global
>> influence" - are being re-assessed. America herself has played a large 
>> part
>> in bringing that re-assessment about.
>>
>> While change has been perceptible for decades, it has dramatically 
>> hastened
>> in the last decade, and notably amongst those which America 'doesn't see 
>> eye
>> to eye with'; the Middle East, Latin America, China, Russia, and 
>> 'Europe'.
>> In many ways the geopolitical world can now be seen as "America" and "The
>> Rest" with a few pledging allegiance to one side or the other, or simply
>> standing back to see which way the wind blows.
>>
>> American 'dominance' seems all but over, and that may turn out to be 
>> GWB's
>> greatest legacy. From announcing his "Crusade" against the Middle East, 
>> his
>> demonisation of "Old Europe" - Germany and France in particular - 
>> ignoring
>> and opposing the UN collective, and failing to recognise emergent 
>> economies
>> and powers, America has made herself somewhat isolated while the rest of 
>> the
>> world has simply moved on by itself.
>>
>> Just as Britain is in a no-man's land - not fully committing to 'Europe',
>> clutching on to the thin thread of 'the special relationship' with 
>> America -
>> America is going to find herself more outside than in if she doesn't 
>> change
>> and embrace the emerging new world order. Like Britain, America has to
>> accept that domination is good while it lasts but has to accept it cannot
>> last for ever. Empires rise and empires fall and it seems we are now 
>> moving
>> into something more akin to a global collective. It would be interesting 
>> to
>> know how it pans-out in a hundred or so years.
>
> I think that you are in general correct, although I would set the time 
> scale significantly lower.
>
> A quote that I found particularly interesting was, "The Chinese believe, 
> for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro 
> in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar". And all the 
> time the Brits thought they stayed out because they wanted to stay out.
>
> And you, TWP, no doubt were startled to hear that, "a prominent Hong Kong 
> broker told The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will 
> come into the euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use 
> the US dollar."
>

They may be right.  I think they'd have to make a very compelling case to us 
though.  I think we're suspicious of Europe at best.  I suppose we still 
have a race memory of some of them dropping bombs on our heads!  I think we 
also find it hard to believe that we won't be the losers out of the deal.

Will forming currency collectives really offer protection though?  It 
doesn't seem to have helped the US, and they're effectively pooling the 
resources of 50 seperate nations.

Another thought occurs - and please forget I mentioned it if my insanity is 
showing here - but if the US ceases to be an umbrella currency for oil 
trading, won't that make the US vulnerable to sanctions being imposed on it 
by the oil nations?  I suppose we've already had oil sanctins in the 1970's, 
but there would surely be even greater leverage available if the currencies 
were seperate from the oil - so that the value of oil didn't sink with the 
ship - to actually attack the US through the use of any new oil currency?

Yet another thought occurs - if the oil-producing nations invent their own 
currency for oil, is it going to last?  Won't it be like backing their 
currency up with gold that is gradually being burned in people's cars? 
Wouldn't they have to be producers of other major commodities to keep the 
currency going?

I'm not an expert in economic things, it's just I've got a strange feeling 
in my water about all this!...   I think I'll start stocking up on bottled 
water and tinned food just to be on the safe side...  I can't help but feel 
that trouble's a-brewin...


TWP