He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone who
dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated ) and
says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west - agree
with ...

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJFQs0ctpZvnpENX3LQHdgDvHozg

<quotes>

US military, economic policies the real threat: Ahmadinejad

UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Tuesday
accused the United States of encircling his country, and said Washington was
the real threat to world stability.

"I'd like to ask you, is it the Iranian (army) that's around the territories
around the country, or is it the US troops that are around?" he asked during
an interview on National Public Radio.

"It is the US troops around our borders. It is not ours around the American
borders. So what exactly are they doing over there?"

"We do not believe that the US policy perspective, looking at the rest of
the world as a field of confrontation, will give good results," he told the
Los Angeles Times.

Ahmadinejad firmly placed the blame for world tensions on Washington and
maintained his controversial stand that Israel has no future, describing the
Jewish state as "an airplane that has lost its engine."

"Problems do not arise suddenly," he told the LA Times.

"The US government has made a series of mistakes in the past few decades.
First, the imposition on the US economy of heavy military engagement and
involvement around the world..., the war in Iraq, for example..., these are
heavy costs."

</quotes>

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1222017362918&pagename=JPost%2FJP
Article%2FShowFull

<quotes>

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday said that Israel was doomed
like "an airplane that has lost its engine" and reiterated his refusal to
accept the Holocaust as historical truth, asserting that the Palestinians
should not be made to "pay for" events that "may have occurred during World
War II."

"Who are these people? Where did they come from?" he asked in an interview
published in Tuesday's Los Angeles Times, referring to the Jewish refugees
from Europe who founded the state of Israel in 1948.

"If we agree and accept that certain events had occurred during World War
II, well, where did they indeed happen? In Germany, in Poland. Now what
exactly does this have to do with Palestine? Why is it that the Palestinian
people should pay for it?"

The Iranian president also reiterated his claim to the effect that recent
allegations made by the International Atomic Energy Agency hinging on the
possibility that Teheran was pursuing atomic weapons were the outcome of US
pressure on the UN watchdog.

"All the documentation was forged," he scoffed. "In fact, it was so funny
and superficial and not in depth that a school kid could laugh at it."

 Ahmadinejad said he does not want confrontation with the United States. He
said he wants diplomatic relations to develop between the two countries and
was willing, for example, to cooperate on upholding security in Iraq.

"We do not have confrontations with anyone," he said. "The US administration
interferes, and we defend ourselves."

Despite UN sanctions against Iran over its nuclear program, Ahmadinejad
claimed vast international support for his position and said the campaign
consisted "of only three or four countries, led by the United States and
with a couple of their European friends."

"If anyone allows himself to commit even a tiny offense against Iran's
legitimate interests, borders and sacred land, our armed forces will break
his hand before he pulls the trigger," Ahmadinejad said during a military
parade Sunday.

</quotes>

The Happy Hippy wrote:

> "If we agree and accept that certain events had occurred during World War
> II, well, where did they indeed happen? In Germany, in Poland. Now what
> exactly does this have to do with Palestine? Why is it that the
> Palestinian people should pay for it?"

Any takers?

-- 
Facts are sacred ... but comment is free

"Robin T Cox"  wrote ...

> The Happy Hippy wrote:
>
> > "If we agree and accept that certain events had occurred during World
War
> > II, well, where did they indeed happen? In Germany, in Poland. Now what
> > exactly does this have to do with Palestine? Why is it that the
> > Palestinian people should pay for it?"
>
> Any takers?

"Because they are sub-human, non-white, non-Christian and we don't have to
give a fuck about them ? The Jews may not be Christians, and some may be
anti-Christian, but at least they're white. Well not as brown as the Arabs,
and certainly not Muslim"

Perhaps ?

The Happy Hippy wrote:
> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone who
> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated ) and
> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west - agree
> with ...

Including holocaust denial ?

"Jesse"  wrote ...

> The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone
who
> > dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
> > rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated )
and
> > says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west - agree
> > with ...
>
> Including holocaust denial ?

While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny the
holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying that.
Self evident really, is it not ?

Perhaps you were just trolling ?

"The Happy Hippy"  wrote in message 
news:YQgCk.62062$E41.39627@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> "Jesse"  wrote ...
<snip>
>>
>> Including holocaust denial ?
>
> While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny the
> holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying that.
> Self evident really, is it not ?
>
> Perhaps you were just trolling ?

Ahmadinejad had better watch out for the Austrian "special rendition team". 
They'll extract him to Vienna, where he'll be banged up for the offence of 
holocaust denial (which is a crime in Austria, as Irving found out a while 
back).

"Richard" <(none)> wrote ...

> "The Happy Hippy"  wrote in message
> news:YQgCk.62062$E41.39627@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> >
> > "Jesse"  wrote ...
> <snip>
> >>
> >> Including holocaust denial ?
> >
> > While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny the
> > holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying
that.
> > Self evident really, is it not ?
> >
> > Perhaps you were just trolling ?
>
> Ahmadinejad had better watch out for the Austrian "special rendition
team".
> They'll extract him to Vienna, where he'll be banged up for the offence of
> holocaust denial (which is a crime in Austria, as Irving found out a while
> back).

Does Austria engage in such renditions ?

Given the European Arrest Warrant which requires a country to extradite
without any evidential prerequisites has effectively legalised rendition
within the EU, he'd  best be careful visiting any member state. Technically
we could grab him from the US that way if Holocaust Denial were a crime here
but the US will not hold up its side of that particular bilateral agreement
though the UK does.

I personally believe the notion of Holocaust Denial as a crime in its own
right is utterly offensive and an affront to freedom of speech, the European
Arrest Warrant the worst and most offensive legislation to trample on Human
Rights which has ever come out of the EU, the agreement with the US equally
wrong and offensive.

The Happy Hippy wrote:
> "Jesse"  wrote ...
> 
>> The Happy Hippy wrote:
>>> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone
> who
>>> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
>>> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated )
> and
>>> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west - agree
>>> with ...
>> Including holocaust denial ?
> 
> While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny the
> holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying that.
> Self evident really, is it not ?
> 
> Perhaps you were just trolling ?

Hippy, you have a tendency to absolutely avoid specifics.
I can see once in a while Ok, but just about every single reply of yours 
is the same, completely ignoring questions and issues and turning it 
around to something you are comfortable with, and its getting old.

I personally am not a denier per se, I think what has become known as 
"the holocaust" is greatly exaggerated, at best.
6,000,000 is a sheer fantasy figure by orders of magnitude.
We can leave the details of that for another day - Now, do you include 
his well known holocaust denial in your assessment of him being 
rational, making alot of sense, and having views that many, if not most, 
in the west agree with ?

Simple question.

In a dim and distant universe
<YIoCk.62146$E41.41080@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
   The Happy Hippy  enlightened us
thusly:

[Snippety snip]

> I personally believe the notion of Holocaust Denial as a crime in its own
> right is utterly offensive and an affront to freedom of speech, the
> European Arrest Warrant the worst and most offensive legislation to
> trample on Human Rights which has ever come out of the EU, the agreement
> with the US equally wrong and offensive.

The thing which gets me, is why is it such a taboo subject? You can't even
research the topic and/or ask for evidence (pro or against the holocaust)
without being branded anti-semetic or a denier?

You can talk about just about anything else from Sept 11th being an inside
job to religious blasphemy, but deny the holocaust and all hell breaks
loose and you're branded evil or something? Methinks they doth protest too
much.

As Norman Finkelstein says, there seems to be an entire Holocaust Industry.

-- 
------ www.truefacts.co.uk ------ Freedom Fighters of the World Unite! ------
Uncover the truth about Sept 11th, Global politics, Suppressed information,
Government corruption, Science, Arts, Philosophical freedom and more....
            "When freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will be free"

"Jesse"  wrote ...

> The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > "Jesse"  wrote ...
> >
> >> The Happy Hippy wrote:
> >>> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is
anyone
> > who
> >>> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
> >>> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated )
> > and
> >>> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west -
agree
> >>> with ...
> >> Including holocaust denial ?
> >
> > While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny the
> > holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying
that.
> > Self evident really, is it not ?
> >
> > Perhaps you were just trolling ?
>
> Hippy, you have a tendency to absolutely avoid specifics.

That's what happens when you ask open-ended questions in the hope of getting
a particular answer out of me or hope to trip me up with some nonsense or
other.


> I can see once in a while Ok, but just about every single reply of yours
> is the same, completely ignoring questions and issues and turning it
> around to something you are comfortable with, and its getting old.
>
> I personally am not a denier per se, I think what has become known as
> "the holocaust" is greatly exaggerated, at best.
> 6,000,000 is a sheer fantasy figure by orders of magnitude.

So your figure is around 60,000 or less to make your 'exagerated by orders
of maginitude' claim valid ?


> We can leave the details of that for another day

Details I'm prepared to leave, but is the above 60,000 in the ballpark you
would accept ?


> Now, do you include
> his well known holocaust denial in your assessment of him being
> rational, making alot of sense, and having views that many, if not most,
> in the west agree with ?
>
> Simple question.

Which "well known holocaust denial" do you refer to ? You want specifics so
let's see you provide them; and that means in the original Arabic and
whatever translation you rely upon. Let's see how what you or others claim
matches to what he actually said.

Simple challenge.

"Truth News"  wrote ...

> In a dim and distant universe
> <YIoCk.62146$E41.41080@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
>    The Happy Hippy  enlightened us
> thusly:
>
> [Snippety snip]
>
> > I personally believe the notion of Holocaust Denial as a crime in its
own
> > right is utterly offensive and an affront to freedom of speech, the
> > European Arrest Warrant the worst and most offensive legislation to
> > trample on Human Rights which has ever come out of the EU, the agreement
> > with the US equally wrong and offensive.
>
> The thing which gets me, is why is it such a taboo subject? You can't even
> research the topic and/or ask for evidence (pro or against the holocaust)
> without being branded anti-semetic or a denier?
>
> You can talk about just about anything else from Sept 11th being an inside
> job to religious blasphemy, but deny the holocaust and all hell breaks
> loose and you're branded evil or something? Methinks they doth protest too
> much.
>
> As Norman Finkelstein says, there seems to be an entire Holocaust
Industry.

I concur. So taboo you can barely even discuss the issue of Holocaust denial
without the same accusations arising.

I will never hestitate to agree and understand that those of the Jewish
faith may well be offended by those who deny the Holocaust and the horrors
which fell upon them for the sake of their religion, both then and at other
times, but I cannot see the denial in itself as a crime.

It's like the days of old where anyone having the audacity to say the Earth
moved around the Sun could be taken out and burned at the stake. Holocaust
denial is a modern day heresy of the worst kind, and there are witch-finder
generals who will jump on anyone who even ventures near the topic.

With all the connotations it brings, it is nothing short of evil to accuse
someone of anti-Semitism without valid and provable cause. Some people
though - and we know from which quarter - throw such accusations around like
confetti, often as soon as their views are challenged or simply questioned.
No different to playing the race card.

The Happy Hippy  wrote:

> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone who
> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated ) and
> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west - agree
> with ...

Here's a rousing "death to America" rally just before Ahmadinejad talks
about going nuclear: 

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1385.htm

> UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Tuesday
> accused the United States of encircling his country

LOL!!!

The Happy Hippy wrote:

> I will never hestitate to agree and understand that those of the Jewish
> faith may well be offended by those who deny the Holocaust and the horrors
> which fell upon them for the sake of their religion, both then and at other
> times, but I cannot see the denial in itself as a crime.

The horrors of Nazi Germany and their Final Solution nightmare would 
never be denied by me. It is, however, wrong that it is seen as a Jewish 
issue when there were millions of others murdered in the camps and by 
the Einstatzgruppen.

T

"Tony B"  wrote ...

> The Happy Hippy wrote:
>
> > I will never hestitate to agree and understand that those of the Jewish
> > faith may well be offended by those who deny the Holocaust and the
horrors
> > which fell upon them for the sake of their religion, both then and at
other
> > times, but I cannot see the denial in itself as a crime.
>
> The horrors of Nazi Germany and their Final Solution nightmare would
> never be denied by me. It is, however, wrong that it is seen as a Jewish
> issue when there were millions of others murdered in the camps and by
> the Einstatzgruppen.
>
> T

Indeed, and it does sometimes feel that those large-scale murders are
considered less important than others. "Holocaust" has come to mean in
recent years a specifically anti-Jewish event where previously it had
refered to the entire slaughter. While Jews are entitled to the
acknowledgement of their suffering they were by no means the only ones
killed nor the largest group of those killed and I feel it is wrong for
anyone to appropriate "Holocaust" for their own specific suffering and
certainly not acceptable for partisan political purposes. It is purely
politicalisation which I believe has led to "Holocaust" being
misappropriated.

According to Rummel's collation of figures, Nazi Germany between 1933 and
1945 murdered 21 million, including some 10 million Slavs.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM

While we are frequently reminded that 6 million Jews were murdered it is
rare to hear mention of the majority 15 million others equally murdered, and
at best as a fleeting aside. It does seem that Jewish deaths are considered
far more important and that is not so - if one however says that, it is not
uncommon to hear it challenged as being an asertion that Jewish deaths are
less important, a sign of anti-Semitism, even though that isn't being said.

The Happy Hippy wrote:
> "Jesse"  wrote ...
> 
>> The Happy Hippy wrote:
>>> "Jesse"  wrote ...
>>>
>>>> The Happy Hippy wrote:
>>>>> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is
> anyone
>>> who
>>>>> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
>>>>> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated )
>>> and
>>>>> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west -
> agree
>>>>> with ...
>>>> Including holocaust denial ?
>>> While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny the
>>> holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying
> that.
>>> Self evident really, is it not ?
>>>
>>> Perhaps you were just trolling ?
>> Hippy, you have a tendency to absolutely avoid specifics.
> 
> That's what happens when you ask open-ended questions in the hope of getting
> a particular answer out of me or hope to trip me up with some nonsense or
> other.
> 
> 
>> I can see once in a while Ok, but just about every single reply of yours
>> is the same, completely ignoring questions and issues and turning it
>> around to something you are comfortable with, and its getting old.
>>
>> I personally am not a denier per se, I think what has become known as
>> "the holocaust" is greatly exaggerated, at best.
>> 6,000,000 is a sheer fantasy figure by orders of magnitude.
> 
> So your figure is around 60,000 or less to make your 'exagerated by orders
> of maginitude' claim valid ?
> 
> 
>> We can leave the details of that for another day
> 
> Details I'm prepared to leave, but is the above 60,000 in the ballpark you
> would accept ?
> 
> 
>> Now, do you include
>> his well known holocaust denial in your assessment of him being
>> rational, making alot of sense, and having views that many, if not most,
>> in the west agree with ?
>>
>> Simple question.
> 
> Which "well known holocaust denial" do you refer to ? You want specifics so
> let's see you provide them; and that means in the original Arabic and
> whatever translation you rely upon. Let's see how what you or others claim
> matches to what he actually said.
> 
> Simple challenge.
> 
> 
Just fuck yourself, little girl

Jesse wrote:

> Just fuck yourself, little girl

Nice retort; considered, eloquent and utterly compelling.

Not.

T

"Jesse"  wrote ...

> The Happy Hippy wrote:
> > "Jesse"  wrote ...
> >
> >> The Happy Hippy wrote:
> >>> "Jesse"  wrote ...
> >>>
> >>>> The Happy Hippy wrote:
> >>>>> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is
> > anyone
> >>> who
> >>>>> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he
talks
> >>>>> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being
mis-translated )
> >>> and
> >>>>> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west -
> > agree
> >>>>> with ...
> >>>> Including holocaust denial ?
> >>> While I'm not one of them, there are those in this world who do deny
the
> >>> holocaust, so, yes, they would obvious agree with Ahmadinejad saying
> > that.
> >>> Self evident really, is it not ?
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps you were just trolling ?
> >> Hippy, you have a tendency to absolutely avoid specifics.
> >
> > That's what happens when you ask open-ended questions in the hope of
getting
> > a particular answer out of me or hope to trip me up with some nonsense
or
> > other.
> >
> >
> >> I can see once in a while Ok, but just about every single reply of
yours
> >> is the same, completely ignoring questions and issues and turning it
> >> around to something you are comfortable with, and its getting old.
> >>
> >> I personally am not a denier per se, I think what has become known as
> >> "the holocaust" is greatly exaggerated, at best.
> >> 6,000,000 is a sheer fantasy figure by orders of magnitude.
> >
> > So your figure is around 60,000 or less to make your 'exagerated by
orders
> > of maginitude' claim valid ?
> >
> >
> >> We can leave the details of that for another day
> >
> > Details I'm prepared to leave, but is the above 60,000 in the ballpark
you
> > would accept ?
> >
> >
> >> Now, do you include
> >> his well known holocaust denial in your assessment of him being
> >> rational, making alot of sense, and having views that many, if not
most,
> >> in the west agree with ?
> >>
> >> Simple question.
> >
> > Which "well known holocaust denial" do you refer to ? You want specifics
so
> > let's see you provide them; and that means in the original Arabic and
> > whatever translation you rely upon. Let's see how what you or others
claim
> > matches to what he actually said.
> >
> > Simple challenge.
> >
> >
> Just fuck yourself, little girl

You fail again.

"Jesse"  wrote in message 
news:LppCk.344952$Qi2.309425@fe06.news.easynews.com...
> The Happy Hippy wrote:
>> "Jesse"  wrote ...
<snip>

> I personally am not a denier per se, I think what has become known as "the 
> holocaust" is greatly exaggerated, at best.
> 6,000,000 is a sheer fantasy figure by orders of magnitude.

No fantasy - just a realistic estimate - though in my opinion an 
overestimate.   In German occupied eastern Europe the German special 
commandos Einstatzgruppen were estimated by the Germans themselves during 
the war to have murdered about 2.1million civilians - mostly Jews.

The death camps (Auschwitz-Birkenlau was an exception, being also a 
concentration camp used to provide slave labour) were reckoned to have 
killed another 2.7million.

From Wikipedia:-
"The number of people killed at the death camps has been estimated as 
follows;
    * Auschwitz-Birkenau: about 1,100,000
    * Treblinka: at least 700,000
    * Belzec: about 434,500
    * Sobibór: about 167,000
    * Chelmno: about 152,000
    * Majdanek: 78,000
    * Maly Trostenets: at least 65,000
These numbers total just under 2,700,000 people."

Bear in mind, that the "Final Solution" programme was setup to be able to 
gas + cremate 6,000 Jews per day (!).    This AFAIK was the figure Heydrich 
and Eichman set when the project was approved in 1942.

On top of this, the Germans liquidated about 4million gypsies, plus smaller 
quantities of other groups: homosexuals, political opponents, mentally 
patients, captured resistance fighters and even Royal Marine Commandos. 
Hitler issued a special order at one point requiring captured commandos to 
be executed.

Wikipedia also states: "Scholarly estimates of deaths in the Sinti and Roma 
genocide range from 220,000 to 500,000 although Ian Hancock challenges this 
figure and puts the estimates as 500,000 to 1,500,000."

> We can leave the details of that for another day - Now, do you include his 
> well known holocaust denial in your assessment of him being rational, 
> making alot of sense, and having views that many, if not most, in the west 
> agree with ?

"Ralph"  wrote in message 
news:1inrjf0.8b8ria1kqnqw2N%nospam@noway.net...
> The Happy Hippy  wrote:
>
>> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone 
>> who
>> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
>> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated ) and
>> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west - agree
>> with ...
>
> Here's a rousing "death to America" rally just before Ahmadinejad talks
> about going nuclear:
>
> http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1385.htm

I love this bit which Ahmadinejad said:-

"During this year's celebrations of the revolution, you have witnessed some 
of our scientists' technological and scientific achievements, [such as] the 
prevention and cure of the deadly AIDS disease. "

Oh yeah?   They've cured AIDS in Iran? .....

Tony B wrote:
> Jesse wrote:
> 
>> Just fuck yourself, little girl
> 
> Nice retort; considered, eloquent and utterly compelling.
> 
> Not.
> 
> T
If I was trying to impress you, Tony B, I would have included a link to 
nickelodeon or something.
Now run along, Hippy has enough ass kissers as it is

"Richard" <(none)> wrote ...

> "Ralph"  wrote in message
> news:1inrjf0.8b8ria1kqnqw2N%nospam@noway.net...
> > The Happy Hippy  wrote:
> >
> >> He's going to be demonised and attacked from many quarters as is anyone
> >> who
> >> dare even suggest agreeing with him but one cannot deny that he talks
> >> rationally and makes a lot of sense ( when not being mis-translated )
and
> >> says what a lot of the world - including those in the wider west -
agree
> >> with ...
> >
> > Here's a rousing "death to America" rally just before Ahmadinejad talks
> > about going nuclear:
> >
> > http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1385.htm
>
> I love this bit which Ahmadinejad said:-
>
> "During this year's celebrations of the revolution, you have witnessed
some
> of our scientists' technological and scientific achievements, [such as]
the
> prevention and cure of the deadly AIDS disease. "
>
> Oh yeah?   They've cured AIDS in Iran? .....

Anyone gay they string up - although that's probably better filed under
"prevention's better than cure". There's a lot of science goes into
stringing someone up :-)