Myreader.co.uk  
uk news, chat and community
   home   |   control panel login   |   archive   |  
 
soc
community.ambulance
community.childcare
community.firefighting
community.policing
community.social-housing
community.voluntary
culture.arts.storytelling
culture.arts.theatre
culture.arts.writing
culture.lang.english
culture.museums
culture.nostalgia.1980s
cur.-events.us-bombing
current-events.general
current-events.n-ireland
current-events.terrorism
food+drink.chocolate
food+drink.indian
food+drink.misc
food+drink.real-ale
food+drink.restaurants
  
 
date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 20:36:23 -0400,    group: uk.current-events.terrorism        back       
Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia

a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
a.. The Guardian,
a.. Monday August 18 2008
a.. Article history

European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly from 
Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its pledges 
to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops from the 
Caucasus republic.

With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider their 
options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, President 
Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an ultimatum for the 
first time, warning that more delays in a pullout "would have serious 
consequences on relations between Russia and the European Union".

The French warning echoed similar statements from the Americans in recent 
days, none of which appears to have rattled the Russians, whose forces 
remain in firm control of large tracts of Georgia well beyond the two 
separatist enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

"People are going to begin to wonder if Russia can be trusted," said 
Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, yesterday of Moscow's failure 
to keep its promises.

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, added to the pressure on Moscow by 
insisting on an "urgent" retreat. She also backed Georgian aspirations to 
join Nato. Downing Street said it would send the foreign secretary, David 
Miliband, to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, later this week.

In Moscow, President Dmitri Medvedev said Russia's troops would start 
withdrawing today. But there is a yawning gap between what Moscow and the 
west understand by withdrawal.

Yesterday, Russian forces appeared to be entrenching their positions on the 
ground barely 30 miles from Tbilisi.

Nato foreign ministers are to hold an emergency meeting in Brussels tomorrow 
on their response. The Americans could call for a suspension of the 
Nato-Russia council, a talking shop that goes back more than a decade and 
symbolises the post-cold war rapprochement that has been shaken by the 
invasion of Georgia.

The conflict has reopened old rifts among the western allies that recall the 
"old Europe-new Europe" divisions over the Iraq war in 2003.

France and Germany are keen to maintain smooth relations with Moscow and 
fear that the EU's mediation role will be jeopardised if they take sides.

The east Europeans in Nato and the EU are strongly on the side of Georgia, 
looking not to Brussels, Paris or Berlin, but to Washington for leadership. 
At the weekend, President Lech Kaczynski of Poland slammed France and 
Germany for being too soft on Moscow, and complained that they were trying 
to monopolise the EU position.

France was unapologetic. "We have to invent a new language with regard to 
Russia. That is what the European Union is trying to do," said Bernard 
Kouchner, the French foreign minister.

Sarkozy, the current EU president who negotiated a six-point ceasefire 
agreement with the Russians and Georgians last week, called for the 
"withdrawal, without delay, of all the Russian military forces that entered 
Georgia since August 7", when the fighting started.

The Russians, with an estimated 10,000 troops and 150 tanks in Georgia, show 
no intention of withdrawing the entire invasion force, and plan to leave 
troops in Georgia proper, beyond the two pro-Russian breakaway provinces. 
Yesterday, troops set up a series of checkpoints between Tbilisi and Gori. 
The first checkpoint near the town of Igoeti is less than 30 miles from the 
Georgian capital. Georgian drivers turned back by the Russians said they 
were told they needed permission from Russia's ambassador in Georgia to 
drive down the road - which connects the east and west of the country.

The Russian military continues to occupy around two thirds of the country, 
including several towns they were supposed to leave under the terms of the 
ceasefire deal agreed on Saturday by Medvedev.

The Kremlin said from today Russia would "begin the withdrawal of the 
military contingent moved to reinforce Russian peacekeepers after the 
Georgian aggression against South Ossetia". But it said the force would not 
retreat to Russia, only to South Ossetia, and that forces would stay in the 
"security zone."

The Russians intend to establish buffer zones in previously 
Georgian-controlled territory beyond South Ossetia and Abkhazia. One of the 
most contentious points of the Sarkozy's ceasefire plan allows Moscow "to 
take additional security measures" beyond the two enclaves until "an 
international mechanism" is established.

The "international mechanism", entailing perhaps UN-mandated international 
peacekeepers, will take weeks to establish at a minimum. The EU is 
endeavouring to be the main middleman. But apart from perhaps sending a few 
dozen unarmed ceasefire monitors in the days ahead, it is unlikely to 
grapple with the bigger issues of peacekeepers until EU foreign ministers 
meet in Avignon in France next month.

Georgia's president, Mikheil Saakashvili, said he would not be happy until 
every Russian soldier had left his country's territory. "Georgia will never 
give up a square kilometre of its territory," he said.
date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 20:36:23 -0400   author:   George

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"George"  wrote in message 
news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>
> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
> a.. The Guardian,
> a.. Monday August 18 2008
> a.. Article history
>
> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly 
> from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its 
> pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops from 
> the Caucasus republic.
>
> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider 
> their options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, 
> President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an 
> ultimatum for the first time, warning that more delays in a pullout "would 
> have serious consequences on relations between Russia and the European 
> Union".

As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas to the 
EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more to lose from an 
economic war than they do.  They can always sell their gas and oil to China 
and India etc.

As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again Russia 
doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more than huff and 
puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's no way the 
US can intervene to "help" Georgia  (which is probably good news for all the 
prospective Georgian wedding party casualities etc.!!!!).

Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over Grenada 
when it invaded, or about the sovereignty of numerous other countries over 
the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went ahead and did what it 
wanted, knowing that the UK and other countries who were offended still had 
more to lose by resisting the US then by just bleating and putting up with 
the US.

Plus ça change .....
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:50:24 +0100   author:   Richard (none)

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"Richard" <(none)> wrote in message news:48a8c768@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>
> "George"  wrote in message 
> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>
>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>> a.. The Guardian,
>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>> a.. Article history
>>
>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly 
>> from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its 
>> pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops from 
>> the Caucasus republic.
>>
>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider 
>> their options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, 
>> President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an 
>> ultimatum for the first time, warning that more delays in a pullout 
>> "would have serious consequences on relations between Russia and the 
>> European Union".
>
> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas to 
> the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more to lose 
> from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell their gas and oil 
> to China and India etc.
>
> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again 
> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more than 
> huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's 
> no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia  (which is probably good 
> news for all the prospective Georgian wedding party casualities etc.!!!!).
>
> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over 
> Grenada when it invaded, or about the sovereignty of numerous other 
> countries over the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went ahead 
> and did what it wanted, knowing that the UK and other countries who were 
> offended still had more to lose by resisting the US then by just bleating 
> and putting up with the US.
>
> Plus ça change .....

The fact remains that the EU is displeased with Russia's actions.  Whether 
their response will simply be to stomp their feet or something more drastic, 
I suspect, depends on Russia's actions on the ground in Georgia.

George
date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:57:04 -0400   author:   George

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
On 18 Aug, 01:36, "George"  wrote:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>
> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
> a.. The Guardian,
> a.. Monday August 18 2008
> a.. Article history
>
> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly from
> Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its pledges
> to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops from the
> Caucasus republic.
>
> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider their
> options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, President
> Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an ultimatum for the
> first time, warning that more delays in a pullout "would have serious
> consequences on relations between Russia and the European Union".

When you here that the EU demand this or demand that, remember that
they speak for nobody other
than the warmongers of the global banking elite. Russia should do what
the EU leaders does when the people of the
European countries ask for a democratic vote on the implementation of
their treaties - just ignore them.

Jonah

>
> The French warning echoed similar statements from the Americans in recent
> days, none of which appears to have rattled the Russians, whose forces
> remain in firm control of large tracts of Georgia well beyond the two
> separatist enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
>
> "People are going to begin to wonder if Russia can be trusted," said
> Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, yesterday of Moscow's failure
> to keep its promises.
>
> The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, added to the pressure on Moscow by
> insisting on an "urgent" retreat. She also backed Georgian aspirations to
> join Nato. Downing Street said it would send the foreign secretary, David
> Miliband, to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, later this week.

> In Moscow, President Dmitri Medvedev said Russia's troops would start
> withdrawing today. But there is a yawning gap between what Moscow and the
> west understand by withdrawal.
>
> Yesterday, Russian forces appeared to be entrenching their positions on the
> ground barely 30 miles from Tbilisi.
>
> Nato foreign ministers are to hold an emergency meeting in Brussels tomorrow
> on their response. The Americans could call for a suspension of the
> Nato-Russia council, a talking shop that goes back more than a decade and
> symbolises the post-cold war rapprochement that has been shaken by the
> invasion of Georgia.
>
> The conflict has reopened old rifts among the western allies that recall the
> "old Europe-new Europe" divisions over the Iraq war in 2003.
>
> France and Germany are keen to maintain smooth relations with Moscow and
> fear that the EU's mediation role will be jeopardised if they take sides.
>
> The east Europeans in Nato and the EU are strongly on the side of Georgia,
> looking not to Brussels, Paris or Berlin, but to Washington for leadership.
> At the weekend, President Lech Kaczynski of Poland slammed France and
> Germany for being too soft on Moscow, and complained that they were trying
> to monopolise the EU position.
>
> France was unapologetic. "We have to invent a new language with regard to
> Russia. That is what the European Union is trying to do," said Bernard
> Kouchner, the French foreign minister.
>
> Sarkozy, the current EU president who negotiated a six-point ceasefire
> agreement with the Russians and Georgians last week, called for the
> "withdrawal, without delay, of all the Russian military forces that entered
> Georgia since August 7", when the fighting started.
>
> The Russians, with an estimated 10,000 troops and 150 tanks in Georgia, show
> no intention of withdrawing the entire invasion force, and plan to leave
> troops in Georgia proper, beyond the two pro-Russian breakaway provinces.
> Yesterday, troops set up a series of checkpoints between Tbilisi and Gori.
> The first checkpoint near the town of Igoeti is less than 30 miles from the
> Georgian capital. Georgian drivers turned back by the Russians said they
> were told they needed permission from Russia's ambassador in Georgia to
> drive down the road - which connects the east and west of the country.
>
> The Russian military continues to occupy around two thirds of the country,
> including several towns they were supposed to leave under the terms of the
> ceasefire deal agreed on Saturday by Medvedev.
>
> The Kremlin said from today Russia would "begin the withdrawal of the
> military contingent moved to reinforce Russian peacekeepers after the
> Georgian aggression against South Ossetia". But it said the force would not
> retreat to Russia, only to South Ossetia, and that forces would stay in the
> "security zone."
>
> The Russians intend to establish buffer zones in previously
> Georgian-controlled territory beyond South Ossetia and Abkhazia. One of the
> most contentious points of the Sarkozy's ceasefire plan allows Moscow "to
> take additional security measures" beyond the two enclaves until "an
> international mechanism" is established.
>
> The "international mechanism", entailing perhaps UN-mandated international
> peacekeepers, will take weeks to establish at a minimum. The EU is
> endeavouring to be the main middleman. But apart from perhaps sending a few
> dozen unarmed ceasefire monitors in the days ahead, it is unlikely to
> grapple with the bigger issues of peacekeepers until EU foreign ministers
> meet in Avignon in France next month.
>
> Georgia's president, Mikheil Saakashvili, said he would not be happy until
> every Russian soldier had left his country's territory. "Georgia will never
> give up a square kilometre of its territory," he said.
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:16:15 -0700 (PDT)   author:   unknown

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"George"  wrote in message 
news:OB4qk.12471$De7.7622@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Richard" <(none)> wrote in message news:48a8c768@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>>
>> "George"  wrote in message 
>> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>>
>>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>>> a.. The Guardian,
>>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>>> a.. Article history
>>>
>>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly 
>>> from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its 
>>> pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops from 
>>> the Caucasus republic.
>>>
>>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider 
>>> their options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, 
>>> President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an 
>>> ultimatum for the first time, warning that more delays in a pullout 
>>> "would have serious consequences on relations between Russia and the 
>>> European Union".
>>
>> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas to 
>> the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more to lose 
>> from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell their gas and 
>> oil to China and India etc.
>>
>> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again 
>> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more than 
>> huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's 
>> no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia  (which is probably good 
>> news for all the prospective Georgian wedding party casualities 
>> etc.!!!!).
>>
>> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over 
>> Grenada when it invaded, or about the sovereignty of numerous other 
>> countries over the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went 
>> ahead and did what it wanted, knowing that the UK and other countries who 
>> were offended still had more to lose by resisting the US then by just 
>> bleating and putting up with the US.
>>
>> Plus ça change .....
>
> The fact remains that the EU is displeased with Russia's actions.  Whether 
> their response will simply be to stomp their feet or something more 
> drastic, I suspect, depends on Russia's actions on the ground in Georgia.
>
> George

It may well be something drastic. But if you equate "something drastic" with 
military force then you are, as usual, sadly wrong.
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:25:49 +0200   author:   Bill Again

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"Bill Again"  wrote in
news:g8bmeu$7cb$01$1@news.t-online.com: 

> 
> "George"  wrote in message 
> news:OB4qk.12471$De7.7622@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Richard" <(none)> wrote in message
>> news:48a8c768@newsgate.x-privat.org... 
>>>
>>> "George"  wrote in message 
>>> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>>>
>>>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>>>> a.. The Guardian,
>>>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>>>> a.. Article history
>>>>
>>>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces
>>>> rapidly from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow
>>>> stalled on its pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the
>>>> thousands of troops from the Caucasus republic.
>>>>
>>>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to
>>>> consider their options for the first time since the crisis erupted
>>>> 10 days ago, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the
>>>> Kremlin with an ultimatum for the first time, warning that more
>>>> delays in a pullout "would have serious consequences on relations
>>>> between Russia and the European Union".
>>>
>>> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas
>>> to the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more
>>> to lose from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell
>>> their gas and oil to China and India etc.
>>>
>>> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again
>>> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more
>>> than huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and
>>> Afghanistan, there's no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia 
>>> (which is probably good news for all the prospective Georgian
>>> wedding party casualities etc.!!!!).
>>>
>>> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over 
>>> Grenada when it invaded, or about the sovereignty of numerous other 
>>> countries over the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went
>>> ahead and did what it wanted, knowing that the UK and other
>>> countries who were offended still had more to lose by resisting the
>>> US then by just bleating and putting up with the US.
>>>
>>> Plus ça change .....
>>
>> The fact remains that the EU is displeased with Russia's actions. 
>> Whether their response will simply be to stomp their feet or
>> something more drastic, I suspect, depends on Russia's actions on the
>> ground in Georgia. 
>>
>> George
> 
> It may well be something drastic. But if you equate "something
> drastic" with military force then you are, as usual, sadly wrong. 
> 
> 




Russia is Germany's biggest trading partner.  Their moderate position in 
the Georgian crisis reflects this.


Merkel has been the only Western leader to actually GO to Russian since 
the military acitivites started.  (please correct me if wrong)



The Bush-UK rhetorical volley thus subverts Germany's position.  Is this 
any way to treat a friend?  



Here's how NATO divides:  

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSLE424255



In one camp, the United States, the Baltic states and somewhat less 
vehemently Poland and the Czech Republic have attacked Russian 
"aggression" and voiced alarm at the precedent of Moscow claiming a duty 
to intervene on foreign soil to defend Russian citizens after handing 
them Russian passports.

Britain, a close U.S. ally, has had its own difficulties with Russia over 
the murder of dissident ex-KGB agent Andrei Litvinenko in London and the 
treatment of British oil major BP in a joint venture with Russian 
business tycoons.

On the other side, France and Germany, which opposed granting Ukraine and 
Georgia a roadmap to NATO membership in April, have opposed any overt 
condemnation of Russia.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini has said there should be no 
"anti-Russia front". Diplomats say such views are shared by Spain, 
Ireland, Greece, Belgium, Austria and Cyprus. (Additional reporting by 
Adrian Croft in London) (Editing by Richard Meares)
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:00:21 GMT   author:   basho007

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
Richard wrote:
> 
> "George"  wrote in message 
> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>
>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>> a.. The Guardian,
>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>> a.. Article history
>>
>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces 
>> rapidly from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow 
>> stalled on its pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the 
>> thousands of troops from the Caucasus republic.
>>
>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider 
>> their options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, 
>> President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an 
>> ultimatum for the first time, warning that more delays in a pullout 
>> "would have serious consequences on relations between Russia and the 
>> European Union".
> 
> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas to 
> the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more to lose 
> from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell their gas and 
> oil to China and India etc.
> 
> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again 
> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more than 
> huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's 
> no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia  (which is probably good 
> news for all the prospective Georgian wedding party casualities etc.!!!!).
> 
> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over 
> Grenada when it invaded

There wasn't any British sovereignty over Grenada, which had been 
independent for about a decade at the time. However the monarchy of 
Grenada is in personal union with the monarchy of the UK (like the UK 
and Canada, or Australia and New Zealand).

  or about the sovereignty of numerous other
> countries over the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went 
> ahead and did what it wanted, knowing that the UK and other countries 
> who were offended still had more to lose by resisting the US then by 
> just bleating and putting up with the US.
> 
> Plus ça change .....
> 


-- 
Arthur Figgis               Surrey, UK
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:38:27 +0100   author:   Arthur Figgis lid

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"Bill Again"  wrote in message 
news:g8bmeu$7cb$01$1@news.t-online.com...
>
> "George"  wrote in message 
> news:OB4qk.12471$De7.7622@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Richard" <(none)> wrote in message 
>> news:48a8c768@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>>>
>>> "George"  wrote in message 
>>> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>>>
>>>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>>>> a.. The Guardian,
>>>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>>>> a.. Article history
>>>>
>>>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly 
>>>> from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its 
>>>> pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops 
>>>> from the Caucasus republic.
>>>>
>>>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider 
>>>> their options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, 
>>>> President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an 
>>>> ultimatum for the first time, warning that more delays in a pullout 
>>>> "would have serious consequences on relations between Russia and the 
>>>> European Union".
>>>
>>> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas to 
>>> the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more to lose 
>>> from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell their gas and 
>>> oil to China and India etc.
>>>
>>> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again 
>>> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more than 
>>> huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's 
>>> no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia  (which is probably good 
>>> news for all the prospective Georgian wedding party casualities 
>>> etc.!!!!).
>>>
>>> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over 
>>> Grenada when it invaded, or about the sovereignty of numerous other 
>>> countries over the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went 
>>> ahead and did what it wanted, knowing that the UK and other countries 
>>> who were offended still had more to lose by resisting the US then by 
>>> just bleating and putting up with the US.
>>>
>>> Plus ça change .....
>>
>> The fact remains that the EU is displeased with Russia's actions. 
>> Whether their response will simply be to stomp their feet or something 
>> more drastic, I suspect, depends on Russia's actions on the ground in 
>> Georgia.
>>
>> George
>
> It may well be something drastic. But if you equate "something drastic" 
> with military force then you are, as usual, sadly wrong.

Note that nowhere in my previous post did I offer an opinion on what the EU 
will actually do.  My point was that whatever they do, it will likely hinge 
upon what Russia does on the ground.  Is that in any way unclear?'

George
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:04:27 -0400   author:   George

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"basho007"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9AFEB729CA776basho@69.16.176.253...
> "Bill Again"  wrote in
> news:g8bmeu$7cb$01$1@news.t-online.com:
>
>>
>> "George"  wrote in message
>> news:OB4qk.12471$De7.7622@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "Richard" <(none)> wrote in message
>>> news:48a8c768@newsgate.x-privat.org...
>>>>
>>>> "George"  wrote in message
>>>> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>>>>
>>>>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>>>>> a.. The Guardian,
>>>>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>>>>> a.. Article history
>>>>>
>>>>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces
>>>>> rapidly from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow
>>>>> stalled on its pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the
>>>>> thousands of troops from the Caucasus republic.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to
>>>>> consider their options for the first time since the crisis erupted
>>>>> 10 days ago, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the
>>>>> Kremlin with an ultimatum for the first time, warning that more
>>>>> delays in a pullout "would have serious consequences on relations
>>>>> between Russia and the European Union".
>>>>
>>>> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas
>>>> to the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more
>>>> to lose from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell
>>>> their gas and oil to China and India etc.
>>>>
>>>> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again
>>>> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more
>>>> than huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and
>>>> Afghanistan, there's no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia
>>>> (which is probably good news for all the prospective Georgian
>>>> wedding party casualities etc.!!!!).
>>>>
>>>> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over
>>>> Grenada when it invaded, or about the sovereignty of numerous other
>>>> countries over the years (Chile, Nicaragua/Iran, etc.). It just went
>>>> ahead and did what it wanted, knowing that the UK and other
>>>> countries who were offended still had more to lose by resisting the
>>>> US then by just bleating and putting up with the US.
>>>>
>>>> Plus ça change .....
>>>
>>> The fact remains that the EU is displeased with Russia's actions.
>>> Whether their response will simply be to stomp their feet or
>>> something more drastic, I suspect, depends on Russia's actions on the
>>> ground in Georgia.
>>>
>>> George
>>
>> It may well be something drastic. But if you equate "something
>> drastic" with military force then you are, as usual, sadly wrong.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Russia is Germany's biggest trading partner.  Their moderate position in
> the Georgian crisis reflects this.
>
>
> Merkel has been the only Western leader to actually GO to Russian since
> the military acitivites started.  (please correct me if wrong)
>
>
>
> The Bush-UK rhetorical volley thus subverts Germany's position.  Is this
> any way to treat a friend?
>
>
>
> Here's how NATO divides:
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSLE424255
>
>
>
> In one camp, the United States, the Baltic states and somewhat less
> vehemently Poland and the Czech Republic have attacked Russian
> "aggression" and voiced alarm at the precedent of Moscow claiming a duty
> to intervene on foreign soil to defend Russian citizens after handing
> them Russian passports.
>
> Britain, a close U.S. ally, has had its own difficulties with Russia over
> the murder of dissident ex-KGB agent Andrei Litvinenko in London and the
> treatment of British oil major BP in a joint venture with Russian
> business tycoons.
>
> On the other side, France and Germany, which opposed granting Ukraine and
> Georgia a roadmap to NATO membership in April, have opposed any overt
> condemnation of Russia.
>
> Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini has said there should be no
> "anti-Russia front". Diplomats say such views are shared by Spain,
> Ireland, Greece, Belgium, Austria and Cyprus. (Additional reporting by
> Adrian Croft in London) (Editing by Richard Meares)

And whether or not you believe it, I suspect that most ordinary Americans 
also do not want to become enroiled in an "anti-Russia" front.  That said, 
the cold war wasn't that long ago, and so there are still tensions and 
underlying prejudices on all sides.

George
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:07:28 -0400   author:   George

Re: Russia warned: withdraw from Georgia, or else   
"Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.com.invalid> wrote in message 
news:uJSdnR5zx-JfZDTVnZ2dnUVZ8sLinZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Richard wrote:
>>
>> "George"  wrote in message 
>> news:9t3qk.11574$rD2.7651@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/18/russia.georgia
>>>
>>> a.. Ian Traynor in Brussels and Luke Harding in Tbilisi
>>> a.. The Guardian,
>>> a.. Monday August 18 2008
>>> a.. Article history
>>>
>>> European leaders warned Russia yesterday to withdraw its forces rapidly 
>>> from Georgia or face unspecified consequences, as Moscow stalled on its 
>>> pledges to honour a ceasefire and pull back the thousands of troops from 
>>> the Caucasus republic.
>>>
>>> With the US and European governments due to meet tomorrow to consider 
>>> their options for the first time since the crisis erupted 10 days ago, 
>>> President Nicolas Sarkozy of France threatened the Kremlin with an 
>>> ultimatum for the first time, warning that more delays in a pullout 
>>> "would have serious consequences on relations between Russia and the 
>>> European Union".
>>
>> As if the Russians give a damn.   They supply the vast amount of gas to 
>> the EU and a moderate amount of oil.  They know the EU has more to lose 
>> from an economic war than they do.  They can always sell their gas and 
>> oil to China and India etc.
>>
>> As for the USA - well, apart from being entirely hypocritical, again 
>> Russia doesn't give a damn.  They know that "dubya" can do no more than 
>> huff and puff.    Already overcommitted in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's 
>> no way the US can intervene to "help" Georgia  (which is probably good 
>> news for all the prospective Georgian wedding party casualities 
>> etc.!!!!).
>>
>> Likewise, the USA didn't give a damn about British sovereignty over 
>> Grenada when it invaded
>
> There wasn't any British sovereignty over Grenada, which had been 
> independent for about a decade at the time. However the monarchy of 
> Grenada is in personal union with the monarchy of the UK (like the UK and 
> Canada, or Australia and New Zealand).

The Queen fools around?  Wow.  I can die with a smile on my face now.

George
date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:08:55 -0400   author:   George

Google
 
Web myreader.co.uk


    COPYRIGHT 2007, YARDI TECHNOLOGY LIMITED, ALL RIGHT RESERVE  |   contact us