First I noticed you had gone for a few days Ray so welcome back.


On 21 Aug, 17:09, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:40:47 -0700 (PDT), freeireland 
> wrote:
>
> >On 11 Aug, 16:50, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 13:44:39 -0700 (PDT), freeireland 
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On 6 Aug, 16:42, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 06:49:40 -0700 (PDT), freeireland 
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >On 30 Jul, 15:41, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> >> >> >> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:43:47 -0700 (PDT), freeireland 
> >> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >On 21 Jul, 17:00, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:52:12 퍝, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >Scríobh none :
> >> >> >> >> >>Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>> The Irish are forecast to become an ethnic minority in our own country by 2050.
> >> >> >> >> >>> The fastest growing religion in Ireland is Islam
>
> >> >> >> >> >Cheer up Ray, if you define atheism as a religious category, then us
> >> >> >> >> >godless infidels outnumber the muslims six to one.
>
> >> >> >> >> I don't define atheism as a religious category...  And I don't dismiss the
> >> >> >> >> threat from Radical Islamists as easily as you do...  Do we have to have another
> >> >> >> >> "spectacular" in Dublin or Shannon before Liberals like you come to your senses
> >> >> >> >> and realise the dangers we conservative Irish Nationalists have always knows
> >> >> >> >> about?
>
> >> >> >> >> Ray
>
> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------> >> >> >> >> We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
> >> >> >> >> of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------> >> >> >> >Wind your neck in Ray. First and formost that vast majority of Irish
> >> >> >> >in Ireland are pretty liberal.
>
> >> >> >> But not all thank God!
>
> >> >> >Ray you don't even know what a liberal is.
>
> >> >> And your expressing an elitism that is common among liberals... Nobody knows the
> >> >> facts except people like you and everyone else is a dupe...
>
> >> >Its was a challenge Ray for you to explain what a liberal actually is> >> >The reality is I believe you just blame everything you do not like on
> >> >liberals or socialists etc without actually knowing what they are.
>
> >> Are we talking Euro Liberal, American Liberal, or socialist liberal?
>
> >You certainly where not very specific when you where branding liberals
> >as elitists!
>
> Generally speaking they are....  Obama, the most liberal one at the moment
> indicated that the audience of his latest encounter with McCain were too stupid
> to understand his thinking...   Elitist!  

All politicans in the states are elitist Ray.

>
> >There are many other brands of liberalism than those you
> >mention yet clearly you have been branding them all with one brush.
> >Liberalis transends politics crossing the borders of Art, culture and
> >politics.
>
> I know it does, and I fight it on all fronts!    Culture and Religion> Liberals will fight tooth and nail to have a picture of the Virgin Mary with
> shit on her as a piece of art and demand freedom of expression...

Do you have a problem with this Ray?

> But the very
> same liberals will foam at the mouth if someone puts up a picture of the Virgin
> Mary with reverence!!!
>  it's all liberal hypocrasy!
>

again Ray these are not the views of say for instance classical
Liberals. So again why are you tarring all liberals with one brush.


> >It does not surprise me that somebody who resides in a country who was
> >the first to draft a constitution based on the concept of liberal
> >government or is run by a central government should dispise liberals
> >or socialists.  You have liberals to thank for the democracy and
> >indivdual freedoms you have today.
>
> No we don't!  Look at the history of the Democrats pre the 1960's and look at
> what the Republicans have done for equality of race...    Dems are only
> interested in minorities so long as they can exploit them for votes...  

Though many believe most of Republican initiatives, and I like the "no
child left behind" policy are token or other gestures such as the
appointment of Ms Rice.

Why can they make this point, well one example is how they responded
to the New Orleans disaster.


>
> >> >> > At least most people here
> >> >> >can make up their own mind on individual policies.
>
> >> >> As they can do here...  Democracy in action
>
> >> >> >Thats why Ireland
> >> >> >has a strong mix or both conservative and liberal legislation.
>
> >> >> As does America... Where do you think all those social programs that cost the
> >> >> taxpayers so much come from?
>
> >> >> >Blind conservatives like you have little or not experience of any real
> >> >> >world living and just repeat what others tell you to think. Try some
> >> >> >original thought for once Ray.
>
> >> >> I've probably travelled more of the world then you have...   I can see and think
> >> >> about all sides of the issues, but I choose to support the side that I feel is
> >> >> best for me and best for the country...
>
> >> >> A little test for you:  You know about the gas prices over here..> >> >> Obama:  Opposes more drilling (mind you he just changed his mind on that, but
> >> >> that might change again tomorrow)... He opposes the proposed new 45 new nuclear
> >> >> power stations...  His solution to the crisis?  Inflate your tires!  Is this the
> >> >> sort of solution you expect from the man that would be president?
>
> >> >So tell me Ray how 45 nuclear power stations are going to reduce the
> >> >price of gas?
>
> >> >The only possible solution is to create hybrid or electric cars which
> >> >use electric generated by the nuclear power stations, yet anyone will
> >> >tell you converting energy like this is extremely wastefull.
>
> >> I'm a sorta all-inclusive fella... Build the windmills and wave power thingines
> >> and work towards having a hybrid car that can go over 40 MPH over a hill, as
> >> well as drilling for more oil and creating Nuclear Power stations to aid the
> >> rising need for power in this country....  What's wrong with that?
>
> >Drill for more oil, or windmills etc  thats your answer Ray.
>
> Not or, and...  Drill here, drill now!  Drill more!!!  The rest can be
> researched to determine if it's a real viable alternative or just hippy pie in
> the sky nonsense!

Again its not hippie pie in the sky nonsense Ray. Wind, Solar, tidal
etc are not viable now. Brazil has shown there is a practical viable
solution that will not only reduce your dependency on foreign oil but
oil full stop. It would give the US argiculture another area to
diversify into. Taking the billions of dollars profits each year out
of a few very rich multinationals who are investing in other countries
and putting a large portion of those profits into the US farmer who
will invest in his local area.

I think you do not realise the size of US dependency on foreign oil.

US crude oil production was 5,064,000 barrels per day in July 2008.
Yet you import 10,031,000 barrels per day from oustide the US, only
5,980,000 barrels per day are from OPEC. Canada is the largest
importer to the US with 1,888,000 barrels per day.  To remove foreign
oil dependencies the US needs to treble its current production of
crude oil from 5,064,000 barrles to over 15,000,000 barrels.

When it comes to total oil production the US produces 8,330,000
barrels per day but consumes 20,687,410 barrels per day. Thats a net
import/export of  -12,356.000 barrels. You have 21,757 billion barrels
of proven reserves.  Compare this to the UK which has a net import/
export of -136,000 barrels per day with 4,029 billion barrels of
proven reserves.








>
> >First
> >Oil production has peaked thats means 50% of the worlds underground
> >oil supply has gone.
>
> We don't know that because the US hasn't drilled more yet!  I've read the same
> reports you probably read and some are glowing about how the US has more oil
> then the Arabs if only they would extract it and I've read the oil quality is
> probably so poor that it would not be cost effective to extract and refine it...
> But until we do...  We simply won't know!
>
> No matter... It's a good idea to become more energy independent and get off the
> damn arab oil fix...
>

Actually the country you import the most oil from is Canada.  Nearly
20% of all imports.


> >Due the poor performance of the dollar and
> >strife in the middle east the only real solution is to find an
> >alternative solution.
>
> No, we have to look at all options and determine the best results for effort
> solution..

Oil is a finite resource it has to be replaced. Current consumption is
unsubstainable in the longer term.

>
> > As for wind power etc they are even more
> >expensive. The UK is now in the situation where wind farms have
> >actually pushed the price of energy up.
>
> I'd laugh, but that's sad!

Maybe but true, wind and tidal power are not cost effective.

>
> >Hydrogen only shifts the
> >consumption to the power station. Due to the principles of capitalism
> >its in the interests of the oil companies to keep oil prices high.
> >The only real solution is to find an alternative to oil.
>
> Twin track approach is needed...  Drill for more oil, and explore and try to
> find alternatives...  That's a sensible solution...  The damn Dems tell us to
> inflate our tires and fuck us if we can't afford to fill our cars!  They act
> like it's our own damn fault!  Such compassion!!!  

Inflating your tyres will cut the US oil dependeny by just below 1
million barrels per day.  Thats good advice.


>
> >> > Building
> >> >45 nuclear power stations is a long term solution and is certanly not
> >> >going to help people at the pump tomorrow morning.
>
> >> Nothing the Dems would help the people at the pumps tomorrow either... However
> >> Bush lifted the ban on drilling and the damn Dems (again) refused to allow an
> >> up/down vote on the issue and pretty much gave the middle finger to the working
> >> class people of America putting "liberal socialist principles" ahead of the
> >> people they were elected to represent...
>
> >Properly inflating your tyres is a step people can take today. Cooper
> >Tire Europe that Britons could save a collective £1 billion every year
> >by maintaining their tyre pressure. Thats a 2.5 to 3% effiency in fuel
> >consumption.
>
> Good for Britain... But here in the USA, we need to get off the dependence on
> foreign oil...  And with oil available here to drill for... It's the obvious,
> sensible solution...    Dems dont' get it, but 70% of the people here support
> drilling....


Most Amercans are also unware of the true figure in regards to their
oil production and consumption. Any extra drilling would probaly not
even meet you increases in consumption. The net import/eport figures
have dropped by 2 million barrels per day in 10 years.  The US oil
problem is based on consumption 3 times as much oil as you are
producing. Consumption has to be tackled and you do  not have the
reserves or refineries to meet consumption.



>
> >> > Secondly it just
> >> >pushes the dependency on oil onto an even more limited resource
> >> >uranium. This has a potential to make things even worse.
>
> >> 10 years ago, it was your boy Clinton and the liberals that defeated yet another
> >> attempt to get some drilling started...
>
> >Remeber the first President Bush expanded the ban on drilling on most
> >of the offshore Outer Continental Shel fwith an executive order in
> >1990 after the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska -- the worst
> >tanker accident in U.S. history.
>
> >Again not a good long term solution. These supplies would only
> >increase oil as a viable source of energy for a few years. 18 billion
> >barrels of oil and 76.5 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. Between
> >1996 and 2004 oil consumption in the US grew by 3 billion barrels a
> >day.
>
> >>  >Keeping
>
> >> >tyres properly inflated is one solution to reduce fuel consumption and
> >> >save money Ray tomorrow morning.
>
> >> 700 billion a year going over seas to feed the need for oil here... Even liberal
> >> estimates suggest that inflating your tires will cut that by 3%....   dopey
> >> Obama suggested that by inflating your tires, we wouldn't need to drill!  This
> >> man is a looney tune if he really believes this!
>
> >Again the US cannot meet its own demand for oil by increasing its own
> >drilling. A 3% reduction in US oil use comes to millions of barrels a
> >year.
>
> It's a bandage stuck on a compond fracture!  We need a serious long term
> solution, not tricks like inflating your tires....   Why are you against
> drilling for iol and making a country less dependent on foreign oil?  It makes
> no sense to oppose this!
>

Again I gave the savings simply inflating tyres would make now. 1
million barrels per day.

>
>
> >> > Obama clearly identifies US reliance on foreign oil as the problem.
>
> >> Than he should be a full supporter of "drill here, drill now!" right?
>
> >Again the US cannot survive on its own oil reserves.
>
> It can't give off 700 billion a year to nations that may support terrorism
> either...   If you could grow tomatoes in your own back yard instead of going
> out to the market and paying premium prices for them...  Wouldn't it make sense
> to invest in a shovel and some tomato seeds?

I agree the only alternative is an alternative fuel. Again brazil is
an example of how this can and does work. This solution is availble
today. It would cut the cost at the pump for drivers by 50% and
performs just as well as gasoline.


>
> >> >Clearly everyone knows this yet with
> >> >oil men like GW Bush in charge, making millions for himself and his
> >> >oil buddies the real problem will never be tackled.
>
> >> Polosi refused the up/down vote and swanned off to sell her total failure of a
> >> book...  And after all them platitudes about "non-partisan" nonsense she spat
> >> out when she became speaker!  Republicans will drill, Liberals would rather
> >> everyone pay 8 dollars a gallon for oil....  Simple as that!
>
> >Its the US excessive use of oil thats at the route of the crisis. The
> >rest of the world subsidises your oil. $8 a barrel its over $10 a
> >barrel in the UK.  Oil is a finite resource that Americans continue to
> >squander and then complain when they have to pay for it like everyone
> >else.
>
> Let's see your rant about China and their use of oil now....  

Chinas consumption is 7,201,000 barrels per day with a net import/
export of -3,356,000 barrels per day.  They have 18.250 billion
barrels in proven reserves. So their reserves are  just less than that
of the US but they produce much less 3,844,870 barrels per day.
Meaning their reserves will last much longer. This is a country with
four times the population of the US.

I am afraid Ray the US are in a leagu of their own when it comes to
net import/export.

>
> Your argument is faulty...  You are now complaining about subsidies for US oil
> and yet you oppose the US drilling for more iol at home which might reduce or
> eliminate these subsidies...  Make your mind up!  Do you just hate America that
> much that you can't see anything it does as right and everything it does, no
> matter it's motivation, as wrong?  That's how your coming across!
>
> >> >Invading two
> >> >countries in the region which supplies the majority of world oil is
> >> >also a major factor in driving up oil prices.
>
> >> They used to say we only invaded for the oil...  We didn't take it...  Now...
> >> Ah you know the arguments...
>
> >"New plans, obtained from the State Department by Newsnight and
> >Harper's Magazine under the US Freedom of Information Act, called for
> >creation of a state-owned oil company favoured by the US oil industry.
> >It was completed in January 2004 under the guidance of Amy Jaffe of
> >the James Baker Institute in Texas.
>
> >Formerly US Secretary of State, Baker is now an attorney representing
> >Exxon-Mobil and the Saudi Arabian government."
>
> >Come on Ray the US was caught with its pants down when its plans to
> >privitise the Iraq Oil industry where discovered.
>
> Where's all the oil we plundered?  Is it with the WMD's we didn't find?
>
> I love arguing with you, but you do drive me nuts sometimes!

The US has threatened to withhold funding as well as financial and
military support to Iraq if they do not pass a pass a new oil sector
investment law allowing foreign companies to assume a major role in
the country. Can you guess where these oil companies come from.

Interesting reading Ray.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2007/0925oilgrab.htm

>
> >> >the reality for you Ray is the US is being susidised buy the rest of
> >> >the world when itr comes to oil. This is being shown at the price of
> >> >fuel at the pump.  Just over $4 a gallon in the US. its rount $2.30
> >> >for a litre here, coming upto around $10 a gallon.
>
> >> You have to take GDP and standards of living into account when you try to
> >> compare prices in different countries...
>
> >lol, yeah Ray the GDP in Northern Ireland is much higher than in the
> >US. Complete and utter tosh.
>
> No answer then...  

That is the answer how can GDP differences between Northern Ireland
and the US map to the hugh differences at the pump.

>
>
>
> >> >Obamas has clear polices on the matter,
>
> >> It's a good thing your going to try and list them because he's been keeping them
> >> secret up until now!
>
> >Than how did I find them Ray.
>
> Moveon.org?  DailyKos... talking points emailed to you?  
>
> I read the same stupid websites, and am even on some liberal email lists.> Just to keep up with what they think is important...  Mostly I find it funny and
> laughable!
>
> >> >1, Build cars that use less gas by increasin CAFE standards resulting
> >> >by 2020 passenger vehicles would average 40 miles per gallon.  My
> >> >current car in the UK averages 50mpg.
>
> >> I've no probs with hybrids and if my truck ever needs to be replaced I'd
> >> consider one of them beasties if they can make it as strong and powerful as my
> >> current truck and yet get more MPG...   I "think" my SUV gets about 20 MPG city
> >> and about 28 freeway...  I recently refilled it, it cost more then $70  Ouch!
>
> >Wastefull.
>
> It's a free market economy... I can afford it...  So what's the problem> As soon as we dig, the price will drop again...  

No it won't because consumption is rising faster than you can increase
production. Also oil is a finite resource.


>
> >> >2, Replace the use of oil altogether as America's fuel of choice. Buy
> >> >providing $100 to anyone who wants a flexible fuel tank to run on E85> >> >and by making E85 availble across the US.
>
> >> There isn't the infrastructure in place for that sort of bold move...  If every
> >> petrol/gas station were to provide support for hybrids like this it might work,
> >> but converting all stations would cost an arm and a leg...  Who's to pay for
> >> that?
>
> >Yes there is.  No infastructure change is required. The same pumps and
> >tankers can be used by both fuel sources.  If a country like Brazilcan
> >do it so how come the US finds it impossible.
>
> You expect me to just dump my truck and go and buy a hybrid?  Not going to
> happen...
>

Then don't complain when you have to pay for it at the pump.

>
>
> >> >3. Reduce the risk of investing in renewable fuels by providing loan
> >> >guarantees and venture capital to those entrepreneurs with the best
> >> >plans to develop cell-bio fuel.
>
> >> Don't agree... Let the free market decide the issue...  Private enterprise
> >> funded privately is the way to go...
>
> >Free markets are interested in profits now not long term benefits to
> >the worlds citizens. The second problem is the oil market is far from
> >a free market.
>
> I agree with the latter...  A cartel that needs it's back broken!

Including the fact that you have to buy and sell oil in the US dollar.
The rest of the world should not have to pay for the US.


>
> >> >"If we had taken all these steps decades ago, like Brazil did when the
> >> >call for energy independence was first issued, we'd be immune right
> >> >now to the whims of oil-rich dictators and surging gas prices. If we
> >> >don't take these steps now there's going to be a day when we look back
> >> >at that $3.05 or $3.15 gasoline as the good old days. At some point
> >> >there's not going to be a tax rebate that's big enough or a tax
> >> >holiday that's long enough to solve these problems."  -Obama.
>
> >> >His policies are certainly more susbstancial than you are leading
> >> >people to believe Ray and your claim "His solution to the crisis?
> >> >Inflate your tires!" was infact misleading at best.
>
> >> He has no plan... He was stupid enough to suggest that inflating your tires was
> >> the same as drilling and negated the need to drill...  He's clueless on this
> >> issue..  As he is on many other issues...
>
> >Quote where he said  "inflating your tires was the same as drilling"
>
> Obama Insists Inflating Tires Better Than Oil Drillinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akjXqfvLu28

It did not say that at all at any point.


>
> Now you have the truth, right from the horses(ass) mouth!
>
> This man has no real plan...  70% of people support off-shore drilling...  
> He's changed his mind again (shock!) recently and now says he might support some
> drilling as part of a bigger plan...  He's a weasel who will say or do anything
> or throw anyone under the bus to get elected!  


again how many people know what the net import/export of the US
actually is.

>
> >> >> >> >Infact you don't realise it Irish,
> >> >> >> >especially nationalists are not on your side on these issues.
>
> >> >> >> They ought to be if they are real nationalists... Interested in preserving the
> >> >> >> country, the culture and the real Irish spirit of Ireland.
>
> >> >> >If that was infact the case Ray then the biggest problem to Ireland is
> >> >> >not immigration but emmigration. More people of Irish decendency live
> >> >> >outside Ireland than in it. Including you Ray!
>
> >> >> I know the latter, I dispute the former...
>
> >> >> >You have yet to mention
> >> >> >that this year more people have left Ireland than have come into it
> >> >> >putting us once again into a period of emmigration.
>
> >> >> I was unaware of this fact...  Source?
>
> >> >Have you lost touch with Ireland completely Ray. Maybe you should
> >> >check out the RTE news sometime.
>
> >> I can't get to surf freely every day anymore...  I don't go to RTE except every
> >> few days at best...   RTE is not what I'd call an unbiased source...
>
> >None the less people in Ireland can see how builders today are leaving
> >for further afield due to the property slump. The reality is
> >emmigration is the situation in Ireland and is recognised as such by
> >the government,
>
> If they government would do the right thing and enforce it's borders and deport
> the criminal illegals that are in the country it might help the economy no
> end...  It's a start!

the Irish government has strict illegal immigration laws. However tts
not a major issue.  Legal immigration is much higher,


>
> >> >> >Immigrants
> >> >> >contribute more  financially to the Irish economy that they take out.
> >> >> >Immigrants to Ireland have embraced organisations such as the GAA and
> >> >> >other Irish cultural organisations.
>
> >> >> You are talking about legal immigrants who came through the system of checks and
> >> >> had background and well as health checks to ensure they were not bringing in any
> >> >> diseases?  
>
> >> >> You are talking about legal immigrants who are not criminal illegal aliens?
>
> >> >> If you, than we have no issue...  It's ILLEGAL  get that ILLEGAL, did I mention
> >> >> ILLEGAL immigrants that have to be stopped and deported...  Most especially if
> >> >> they are found to be criminals or commit a crime within the State...  Would you
> >> >> agree with this?
>
> >> >Ireland is not the US Ray. The problem with illegal immigrants even
> >> >when exaggerated is small.  First most immigrants come from eastern
> >> >europe and are entitled to come to Ireland under the european freedom
> >> >of movement legislation. We have no land borders, few airports and few
> >> >seaports. Its one of the more difficult places to sneak into.
>
> >> And when caught they should be finger printed, photographed and deported
> >> immediately with a lifetime ban of every entering the country again, illegally
> >> or legally...  
>
> >I think you miss the point Ray Ireland does not ahve an illegal
> >immigrant problem.
>
> ROTFL!!!!   Did you write that with a straight face!!!!!?????
>

Ok then Ray tell me how many illegal immigrants are in Ireland.

>
>
> >> >Secondly most crime in Ireland is committed by the Irish, Dublin crime
> >> >gangs run rampant. Irelands unemployed are largely Irish citizens. If
> >> >anything the immigrants are paying for those Irish who are lazy and
> >> >want to sponge of the system.
>
> >> They make the same excuses over here to defend the crimes of illegal criminal
> >> aliens...  Recently a gang banger murdered 3 US citizens in SanFran and he was
> >> known but because of the moronic policy of the gay loving liberal mayor there,
> >> he wasn't reported to ICE when he encountered the police before...  3 dead
> >> people, murdered by an illegal criminal alien that should never have been in the
> >> country!!!
>
> >Again avoiding the issue Ray. Maybe there are no US criminals.
>
> Now your missing the point...  The point is if this scum bastard was deported
> upon discovery in the country than 3 US citizens would NOT be dead today!  How
> much more simple do you need me to put it before you get it??

So its collective punishment. What percentage of crimes or murders int
he US are committed by illegal immigrants?

>
> >> >> >Especially at underage levels.
> >> >> >Though Ray you being one of the people who abandoned his country
> >> >> >living thousands of miles away would know little of that. How can
> >> >> >anyone claim to be an irish nationalist when he abandoned his
> >> >> >country.
>
> >> >> Cheap shot...  A good debater, who has a command of the issues argues the issues
> >> >> and not the personalities...  Your better than this... I've seen you debate
> >> >> before, and you can be a good debater...  Do so again...
>
> >> >its a fact Ray. Young Irish people today are leaving to got the US,
> >> >england, Scotland and Austrailia is a bigger problem to an aging
> >> >population than immigration.
>
> >> >> >>  >How
>
> >> >> >> >many countries has the US dropped bombs in the last 30 years then
> >> >> >> >compare that to Ireland.
>
> >> >> >> WTF?
>
> >> >> >Don't you know or have you lost count?
>
> >> >> What does this have to do with illegal immigration?
>
> >> >> >> >Thats why we have nothing to fear from so
> >> >> >> >called radical islamists.
>
> >> >> >> Don't we?  Read and learn boyo!http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/000893.html
>
> >> >> >What if Ireland was allowing arabic planes to refuel in Ireland to
> >> >> >bomb the US. I bet you would see his point then. The US government are
> >> >> >warmongers. Their foreign policy is based on greedy self interest.
>
> >> >> I should save this quote for the day, God forbid!  That Ireland is attacked by
> >> >> Islamofascists!  Your only fooling youself if you think Ireland is immune from
> >> >> this cancerous fascist evil...
>
> >> >Catch your self on Ray now they are facists! Thats just emotive
> >> >language or spin nothing more.
>
> >> Islamofascists...  
>
> >Only people without any common sense would use a term such as
> >Islamofascism. Bundling extermists with moderates and the different
> >brands of Islm into one and branding them as facists is nothing more
> >than religious based propaganda.
>
> >I challenge you Ray to tell me how you show Ithe wider Islamic religon
> >has adopted the facist ideology developed by Mussolini?   Then can you
> >explain how the most totalitarian Islamic states are actually allies
> >of the US.
>
> If you don't get it... I can't help you...
>

Its a pretty fundamental question and I think you are just repeating
rhetoric without any real basis in fact.



>
>
> >> >Ireland is free from and will remain so while or goverment keeps a
> >> >neutral stance. Irish people by a landside want nothing todo with US/
> >> >UK aggressions or retention/torture flights in the middle east.
>
> >> Yes, so long as Ireland kow tows to the Islamofascists and, like a good doggy,
> >> sits and begs not to have it's citizens blown to bits...  That's just
> >> insanity!!!  These bastards need to be confronted and exterminated!  not
> >> appeased!!!!  We all saw where appeasement got Britain during ww2 didn't we?
>
> >You mean rather that be a good doggy and sit and beg at the US table.
> >Sorry Ray we are more than able to think for ourselfs and see whos
> >invaded whos countries.
>
> Ireland is a target of these psychopats!  I'm more than glad Ireland is somehow
> part of the greater war against these islamofascists!  If I were in charge in
> Ireland we'd have troops in Iraq supporting the cause of worldwide freedom and
> democracy!  

The population of Ireland by large is  opposed to what they consider
US aggression in the middle east.

>
> >> >Already US dollars are paying for Isreals proxy agggressions against
> >> >Iran. This wanton violation of a nation's sovereignty would not be
> >> >tolerated if the tables were turned and Americans were being subjected
> >> >to Iranian-funded covert actions that took the lives of Americans, on
> >> >American soil, and destroyed American property and livelihood.
>
> >> Oh... The UN are so good at keeping rogue nations in line...  Just like N Korea
> >> and Iraq and now Iran...  I hope and fully expect the Israelies to bomb the Iran
> >> Nuclear plant before long, the only thing I'm wondering about is why they
> >> haven't already?!
>
> >Didn't the US fund both Iran and Iraq at some stage Ray. Or do you
> >think its because the US cannot afford to invade yet another country.
>
> Times change, politics change, and once good friends become bitter hateful
> enemies...  This is true even in my personal life, nevermind the global
> political world!

The crimes Saddam was convicted off where committed during the period
of US support.


>
> >Who is the only country Ray to use an Atomic bomb?
>
> It was necessary!  It saved more lives than it took...  War is hell!

So then surely why should other countries not take the same position
and seek nuclear devices.


>
> >> >> >I am sorry quotes from Sir Ian Blair are not held in high regard
> >> >> >here.
>
> >> >> >We have nothing to fear from Islam as long as our government does not
> >> >> >support the greedy imperialist policies of the US and UK.
>
> >> >> So 9/11 and 7/7 and whenever that date was in Spain were all those countries
> >> >> fault and they deserved to have innocent people bombed to bits?  Don't tell me
> >> >> your one of those?
>
> >> >Ray the US has been meddling in the middle east since WW II. These
> >> >countries where bombed as a direct result of their respective
> >> >countries  foreign polices.  The thousands dead in both Europe, the US
> >> >and the middle east lies solely at the feet of these governments.
>
> >> The West and US freed 30 million people from under the yoke of Sadam Hussain and
> >> is currently giving Iraq the best chance for actual democratic freedom it ever
> >> had!  Meanwhile Iran....
>
> >You mean Ray you overthrew a rgime to instate a regime which is slowly
> >aligning itself with Iran rather than oppose it.  I have heard many
> >definitions of freedom Ray but years of war and conflict is not one of
> >them.
>
> There were democratic elections in Iraq...  I'm not happy with the outcome of
> those elections, but that's what democracy is all about...  Now we work hand in
> hand with the legitimite government of Iraq to stabilize the country and try to
> ensure it's future existance agaisnt the threat from islamofascism and Iran!
> This was a noble deed done for all the right reasons!  And only the extremists
> on the left are too blind to see it, or are ignoring this for political gain!

Nonsense Ray bombing a country to shit, then hanging its leader and
having so called democratic elections is like shagging for virginity.
Forcing democracy on a country is no solution and as Iraq converts to
a Shia islamic state where will your democracy be?


>
> >> >> > Incase you
> >> >> >do not realise Ray most Irish nationalists know what imperilism is
> >> >> >really about and will have more sympathy with Islm than us imperialism
> >> >> >and greedy self interest. Ireland was forged on resisting imperialism.
>
> >> >> And what do you think Islamofascism is?  A peaceful loving hippy commune who are
> >> >> filled with suicide bombers and psychopats who are simply misunderstood?  What
> >> >> about the bombs they set off in Iraq killing Iraqis?  I remember a whole
> >> >> schoolbus full of children been blown up, killing them all, and that is what
> >> >> Islamofascism is...  A cruel, heartless, evil philosophy determined to
> >> >> exterminate anyone and everyone that is not one of them...  That my friend is
> >> >> modern imperalism...  
>
> >> >So then Ray what about the 300 cruise missles per night for three
> >> >weeks in Iraq. Then tell about the 300 tonnes of depleted uranium left
> >> >by coalition forces, tell me about the fuel air bombs, or the nazi
> >> >tactic of shock and awe. All this in a nation devastated by 13 years
> >> >of US sanctions. The reality is the US is quite happy to fill the
> >> >ground withthe thousands of bodies of dead Iraqis for the $3 gallon
> >> >but outraged at the response you get.
>
> >> It was a war, not a fuckin' party and if the damn UN had done more than send
> >> strongly worded letters to Sadam regarding it's WMD's the war would not have
> >> been necessary!!    If anyone is to blame for the current situation in Iraq,
> >> it's the UN (Useless Nonentities)
>
> >Why are you avoiding the point Ray. That the US develeped and use nazi
> >tactics in Iraq.
>
> Every country use "shock and awe" if they could...  The damn Brits used it in
> Norn Iron!    You use whatever will work!

No they did not and very few countries would. Its a tactic invented by
the Nazis and is targeted at the civilian population.


>
> >Also I am asking again how many WMDs have the US
> >found in Iraq and what where they? I know this is difficult for you to
> >answer as even Bush has given up the WMD ghost.
>
> Sadam is to blame...  The UN and most of the intelligence services of the West
> believed Sadam had these weapons...

Untrue, if so why did the UN not support the US invasion. 9 out of the
secruity council voted against any invasion. International monitors
said they could not find any evidence of WMDs in Iraq.

>  Remember the gassing of the Kurds?

When was that Ray and who was Saddams biggest supporter at the time?

> And 18
> resolutions later and several strongly worded letters from the UN "finger
> wagging brigade", the US did what the UN didnt' have the balls to do and took
> him on...  

the US could not back up any of its allegations certainly the WMD and
chemical factories in the back of a truck accusations.

>  But the left wouldn't acknowledge that this was a noble cause even
> if we were up tot he ears in WMD's and would still whine about an "illegal
> war"... it's the nature of the beast...

Every nation has a right to defend its citizens however Iraq posed no
threat to the US except economically by selling oil to Europe in the
euro.


>
> >> >> America freed 30 millon people when it liberated Iraq and ended the threat of
> >> >> WMD and a middle east wide war...  Now Iran is threatening stability with Russia
> >> >> and China backing it up...  When will the world learn?
>
> >> >When will the US learn Ray. Nearly 1 million of those Iraqies where
> >> >killed as a result of being freed. Another million and a half severely
> >> >injured. More millions (christian and sunnis mainly) forced to flee to
> >> >places like Syria. Already years of war and destruction with no end in
> >> >sight thats not freedem thats destruction Ray.  The regime you claimed
> >> >the Iraqis are freed from the US put in power and armed.  His running
> >> >of Iraq had little bearing on US opinion then.
>
> >> >As for WMDs who are you kidding Ray. Even the US has given up looking
> >> >for them.
>
> >> I'm not going over this issue again, you'll never accept the truth...
>
> >You mean they did not find any did they Ray.
>
> >> >> >> I had a better article, but can't find it now that I need it.    The implication
> >> >> >> of your statement is of course, that Spain, England and the USA, among others
> >> >> >> deserved to be attacked and that the innocents there murdered somehow are to
> >> >> >> blame...  
>
> >> >> >I made no such claim and and you have no right to try put words into
> >> >> >my mouth as such.
>
> >> >> I said it was implied, not stated...  It's how I read it, perhaps not how you
> >> >> meant it... I should have given you a chance to clarify...
>
> >> >I in noway way ever immplied that innocent people should be murdered
> >> >and I certainly did not imply that they deserved to be be murdered
> >> >Ray. You are directly trying to put words in my mouth and I will not
> >> >stand for it.
>
> >> Your condecending attitude is irking me, but I'm putting it aside to debate you
> >> so we're even on that score...
>
> >I do not care about irking you Ray considering you made a wild
> >allegation claiming I implied innocent people should be murdered.
> >Sounds to me you have been listening too much to the British when they
> >are being critised for murdering innocent civilians. I have in no
> >circumstance claimed or implied that any innocent person should be
> >murdered or killed. I will not stand anyone including you trying to
> >claim I have. You should at least show some common decency and retract
> >you inflamatory accusation.
>
> You blame the west for the attacks on 911 and 7/7  right?

No I don't, I blame the foreign polices of several western nations.


>
> >> >> >No innocent is to be blamed for any bombing. However the governments
> >> >> >of the US, UK, Spain etc are directly to blame for the murders of
> >> >> >hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> >> >> Murders?  Of terrorists?  Innocent people get killed in all wars!  
>
> >> >Casualities of war when they are killed in Iraq inncent victims of
> >> >murder when they are killed in the US. This is a clear example of the
> >> >hyprocracy within the neocon camp.
>
> >> I am NOT a neo-conservative... I'm old-school conservative...  
>
> >Funny how your ideals in the middle east stink of neo conservatism
> >isn't it.
>
> They are newbies beside me!  :)
>
> Anyway, defind neo-conservativism as you see it?

In this context neo cons are pro invading controlling the middle east
to control oil reserves.


>
> >> >> >Their foreign
> >> >> >polices in the middle east are directly responsible for the increase
> >> >> >in anti western feeling and strengthening of fundamentalism in the
> >> >> >middle east.  No middle eastern country sent an army to the US or the
> >> >> >UK.
>
> >> >> They use terrorist orgs to fight a proxy war and you know this!  
>
> >> >Then why are the US not invading Saudi Arabia.  Bin Laden is a Saudi,
> >> >the 9/11 bombers where Saudi and the majority if Al Qaeda training
> >> >camps are there and Pakistan.
>
> >> One battle at a time!  LOL!!!  I don't suppose you see the humour there?
> >> Thought not!
>
> >Its unlikely since Saudi owns about 5% of the US economy and you
> >depend so much on their oil. I wonder is that why GWB likes to walk
> >hand in hand with certain Islamic Arab kings.
>
> We have to fight one battle at a time...    This is going to be a very very long
> war, lasting generations...  Not years...

Then why not attack where Al Qaeda  are strongest first or where Bin
Laden and the 9/11 bombers actually came from first?


> >> >> >> >Funny how you people always need a bad guy,
>
> >> >> >> Leftists never hold up a bad guy as an example such as comparing anyone that
> >> >> >> disagrees with them to Hitler... Oh no...  And Ronald Reagan was a saint...  
>
> >> >> >> >in the 60's it was the communists and since the break up of the USSR
>
> >> >> >> Since American military might and tactical thinking overpowered and cowed the
> >> >> >> cowardly commie scum...  Commies not scum?  Ask the relatives of the 20 million
> >> >> >> Stalin killed?  
>
> >> >> >Again what do you actually know of communism, Stalin is not communism.
> >> >> >Tell me Ray how many have died around the world as a direct result of
> >> >> >greedy capitalism and imperialism.
>
> >> >> Well 20 million or so died at the hands of Stalin...  
>
> >> >This is propaganda Ray you are repeating. Its about 40 years out of
> >> >date. These figures include those who died during hte Russian famine
> >> >during WW II. Its like blaming Bush for what happened at New Orleans.
> >> >Another fact for you Ray, do you know nearly 60 percent of Russians
> >> >today believe Stalin was a good influence on their country. He
> >> >basically squeezed 150 years if industrial revolution into 10 years.
> >> >He did nothing any other imperialist country did including the UK and
> >> >now the US.  Old people in Russia are not dying from the cold winters
> >> >as in the UK or the US due to lack of energy due to Lenins communism.
> >> >Stalin killed all the communists after Lenins death. though again this
> >> >shows you do not know what communism is or what Russian people think
> >> >of Stalin.
>
> >> Hitler is a an animal, anyone who ever even swept the floors for him in a
> >> uniform must be hounded down no matter how long ago it was... Yet you give a man
> >> who killed more people, because he's a lefty like you, a complete pass and try
> >> to explain away 20 million deaths...  
>
> >So considering this how do you think the US show react to the Georgia
> >situation since the Georgian army where under the control of the Nazi
> >SS. Or Mikheil Saakashvili whos father served as a Georgian general
> >under the SS command.
>
> We should induct the Ukraine into NATO immediately and put a strong missile
> defense system on the borders...

Only 75 seats out of the governments 450 support joining NATO. Those
issues are for Ukraine to decide and recent polls show leading parties
swinging towards closer ties to Moscow. I have posted a description of
this elsewhere. I can did out a full explanation if you require. Just
be warned Ukraines politcal ambitions are likely to change by the end
of next year.

> Like we did with Poland!

And Russia are doing it with Syria.

> We should fund them
> and supply them with military technology that can defeat the historic T-72's
> the Commies are using!  

but can they stop Russias new 5th generaion aircraft.

>These people only respond to strength and we should show
> that strength!  

They responed to an indiscriminate attack ontheir citizens. I am sure
you would expect the same reponse form the US government if US
citizens where attacked.

> When these commie bastards invade a democrat country...  We need
> to act...  The UN are thinking about sending another cross worded letter!  That
> will send shivers down the spines of the Russian Military leaders!  

Georgia a democratic country. You are joking. If democracy is in place
then they should recognise the two break away states.

>
> >> >> >Maybe Ray you can tell me how many civilains have dies in Iraq as a
> >> >> >result of the US/UK invasion. It was estimated as 785,957 in June
> >> >> >2007. With 1,414,723 seriously injured.
>
> >> >> Those numbers are high even for you...  These stats are all over the place and
> >> >> one quick search through google will show that...  Nobody knows for sure.  What
> >> >> we DO know for SURE is that civilian deaths in Iraq were ACCIDENTAL and not part
> >> >> of a genocidal policy...  Unlike alqaeda murders of civilians that they
> >> >> deliberately target for murder...
>
> >> >> Ray
>
> >> >These numbers are from a peer reviewed scientific document Ray and are
> >> >as accurate as can be.  If anythign this figure is more likley to be
> >> >lower than the actual body count.
>
> >> Here are some figures from the far far away with the moon bats liberals and even
> >> their numbers don't match what your tryint to put forth:
>
> >>http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ - Obviously a fascist group (get it?)
> >>  Documented civilian deaths from violence - 86,606 – 94,487
>
> >> Your numbers are away with the fairies!
>
> >Iraq Body count does not even attempt to determine the death toll in
> >Iraq. It only keeps track of reported deaths.
>
> >Oh heres another report.
> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR200...
>
> Ray
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
> of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
> ---------------------------------------------------------------