Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not one!
 
====
The following is a list of beliefs that I hold. Nearly every one of them was a
liberal position until the late 1960s. Not one of them is now.

Such a list is vitally important in order to clarify exactly what positions
divide left from right, blue from red, liberal from conservative.

I believe in American exceptionalism, meaning that (a) America has done more
than any international organization or institution, and more than any other
country, to improve this world; and (b) that American values (specifically, the
unique American blending of Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian values) form the
finest value system any society has ever devised and lived by.

I believe that the bigger government gets and the more powerful the state
becomes, the greater the threat to individual liberty and the greater the
likelihood that evil will ensue. In the 20th century, the powerful state, not
religion, was the greatest purveyor of evil in the world.

I believe that the levels of taxation advocated by liberals render those taxes a
veiled form of theft. "Give me more than half of your honestly earned money or
you will be arrested" is legalized thievery.

I believe that government funding of those who can help themselves (e.g., the
able-bodied who collect welfare) or who can be helped by non-governmental
institutions (such as private charities, family, and friends) hurts them and
hurts society.

I believe that the United States of America, from its inception, has been based
on the Judeo-Christian value system, not secular Enlightenment values alone, and
therefore the secularization of American society will lead to the collapse of
America as a great country.

I believe that some murderers should be put death; that allowing all murderers
to live does not elevate the value of human life, but mocks it, and that keeping
all murderers alive trivializes the evil of murder.

I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and foster
goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and professors in America put
together.

I believe that lowering standards to admit minorities mocks the real
achievements of members of those minorities.

I believe that when schools give teenagers condoms, it is understood by most
teenagers as tacit approval of their engaging in sexual intercourse.

I believe that the assertions that manmade carbon emissions will lead to a
global warming that will in turn bring on worldwide disaster are a function of
hysteria, just as was the widespread liberal belief that heterosexual AIDS will
ravage America.

I believe that marriage must remain what has been in every recorded civilization
-- between the two sexes.

I believe that, whatever the reasons for entering Iraq, the American-led removal
of Saddam Hussein from power will decrease the sum total of cruelty on Earth.

I believe that the trial lawyers associations and teachers unions, the greatest
donors to the Democratic Party, have done great harm to American life -- far
more than, let us say, oil companies and pharmaceutical companies, the targets
of liberal opprobrium.

I believe that nuclear power, clean coal, and drilling in a tiny and remote
frozen part of Alaska and offshore -- along with exploration of other energy
alternatives such as wind and solar power -- are immediately necessary.

I believe that school vouchers are more effective than increased spending on
public schools in enabling many poorer Americans to give their children better
educations.

I believe that while there are racists in America, America is no longer a racist
society, and that blaming disproportionate rates of black violence and
out-of-wedlock births on white racism is a lie and the greatest single
impediment to African-American progress.

I believe that America, which accepts and assimilates foreigners better than any
other country in the world, is the least racist, least xenophobic country in the
world.

I believe the leftist takeover of the liberal arts departments in nearly every
American university has been an intellectual and moral calamity.

I believe that when it comes to combating the greatest evils on Earth, such as
the genocide in Rwanda, the United Nations has either been useless or an
obstacle.

I believe that, generally speaking, Western Europe provides social and moral
models to be avoided, not emulated.

I believe that America's children were positively affected by hearing a
non-denominational prayer each morning in school, and adversely affected by the
removal of all prayer from school.

I believe that liberal educators' removal of school uniforms and/or dress codes
has had a terrible impact on students and their education.

I believe that bilingual education does not work, that for the sake of immigrant
children and for the sake of the larger society, immersion in the language of
the country, meaning English in America, is mandatory.

I believe that English should be declared the national language, and that
ballots should not be printed in any language other than English. If one cannot
understand English, one is probably not sufficiently knowledgeable to vote
intelligently in an English-speaking country.

Finally, I believe that there are millions of Americans who share most of these
beliefs who still call themselves "liberal" or "progressive" and who therefore
vote Democrat. They do so because they still identify liberalism with pre-1970
liberalism or because they are emotionally attached to the word "liberal."

I share that emotion. But one should vote based on values, not emotions. 

Source:
http://560wind.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/12/why_i_am_not_a_liberal?page=full&comments=true


What say you?

Ray


---------------------------------------------------------------
We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
---------------------------------------------------------------

In article ,
 "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:

> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not one!
>  
 . .stupid drivel snipped . . 
> 
> Finally, I believe that there are millions of Americans who share most of 
> these
> beliefs who still call themselves "liberal" or "progressive" and who 
> therefore
> vote Democrat. They do so because they still identify liberalism with 
> pre-1970
> liberalism or because they are emotionally attached to the word "liberal."
> 
> I share that emotion. But one should vote based on values, not emotions. 
> 
> Source:
> http://560wind.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/12/why_i_am_not_a_
> liberal?page=full&comments=true
> 
> 
> What say you?
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
> of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

I say it's your typical cut and paste wingnut BS. That's what I say.

William Clark

On 12 Aug, 18:51, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not one!
>
> ====
> The following is a list of beliefs that I hold. Nearly every one of them was a
> liberal position until the late 1960s. Not one of them is now.

That clearly shows the lack of understanding of liberalism.
Liberalism is about changing often radically, thats why it generally
appeals to youth.

>
> Such a list is vitally important in order to clarify exactly what positions
> divide left from right, blue from red, liberal from conservative.
>
> I believe in American exceptionalism, meaning that (a) America has done more
> than any international organization or institution, and more than any other
> country, to improve this world; and (b) that American values (specifically, the
> unique American blending of Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian values) form the
> finest value system any society has ever devised and lived by.

lol, Maybe you should go and live in downtown Bagdad for a while then
Ray. Tell me how things their have improved when you stop tripping
over the shallow graves. The US are the new imperialists taking over
from where Britian left off.


>
> I believe that the bigger government gets and the more powerful the state
> becomes, the greater the threat to individual liberty and the greater the
> likelihood that evil will ensue. In the 20th century, the powerful state, not
> religion, was the greatest purveyor of evil in the world.

Yeah thats right Ray religion has an exellent track record!

>
> I believe that the levels of taxation advocated by liberals render those taxes a
> veiled form of theft. "Give me more than half of your honestly earned money or
> you will be arrested" is legalized thievery.

So you are calling for the end of all taxation?

>
> I believe that government funding of those who can help themselves (e.g., the
> able-bodied who collect welfare) or who can be helped by non-governmental
> institutions (such as private charities, family, and friends) hurts them and
> hurts society.

How would you know. The economic downturn  which lies at the hands of
banks and the governments will leave a lot of good hardworking men
without work. I think years of paying taxes entitles them to
something.


>
> I believe that the United States of America, from its inception, has been based
> on the Judeo-Christian value system, not secular Enlightenment values alone, and
> therefore the secularization of American society will lead to the collapse of
> America as a great country.

How can a country which has 1/3 of all children living below the
poverty line or takes weeks to respone to a natural disater in New
Orleans be considered great.


>
> I believe that some murderers should be put death; that allowing all murderers
> to live does not elevate the value of human life, but mocks it, and that keeping
> all murderers alive trivializes the evil of murder.

Who are you to put value on life. As a christian you must believe that
is a role for God and its for him to give and take life.

>
> I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and foster
> goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and professors in America put
> together.

lol, then why all the anti american resentment across the entire
planet Ray. All the US military has done has enforced a murderous
foreign policy in countries thousands of miles away.


>
> I believe that lowering standards to admit minorities mocks the real
> achievements of members of those minorities.

This coming from a person from the Irish minority. If you believe this
Ray you should eject yourself.

>
> I believe that when schools give teenagers condoms, it is understood by most
> teenagers as tacit approval of their engaging in sexual intercourse.

Teenagers have been practicing sex long before the invention of
condoms.

>
> I believe that the assertions that manmade carbon emissions will lead to a
> global warming that will in turn bring on worldwide disaster are a function of
> hysteria, just as was the widespread liberal belief that heterosexual AIDS will
> ravage America.

I to apoint agree with the hysteria however I have no problem with
respecting the planet we live on. The unrepenting dumping of plastic
waste is a much greater danger.


>
> I believe that marriage must remain what has been in every recorded civilization
> -- between the two sexes.

There could be good arguments for and against same sex marriages,
civil partnerships or whatever.  Gay orgies have been recorded in
almost every recorded civilisation yet I doubt you would promote that.

>
> I believe that, whatever the reasons for entering Iraq, the American-led removal
> of Saddam Hussein from power will decrease the sum total of cruelty on Earth.

Then why not invade Russia or China?   What gives you or the US
governemnt who killed almost 2 million in vietnam the right to decide
that?


>
> I believe that the trial lawyers associations and teachers unions, the greatest
> donors to the Democratic Party, have done great harm to American life -- far
> more than, let us say, oil companies and pharmaceutical companies, the targets
> of liberal opprobrium.

The same oil companies whos profits have gone threw the roof because
of your $4 gallon you mean.


>
> I believe that nuclear power, clean coal, and drilling in a tiny and remote
> frozen part of Alaska and offshore -- along with exploration of other energy
> alternatives such as wind and solar power -- are immediately necessary.

lol, Again none of these are viable in the long term, nuclear, coal
and oil are of a limited resource.

In 2006, Brazil cut its oil dependency in just 3 years achieving a
state of energy equilibrium, that is using the smae amount of oil as
it exports. In these 3 years with a population of 185 million 100% of
cars converted to a flex-fuel system of either sugar based ethanol or
gasoline. 100% ethanol was 50% of the cost of gasoline in 2006 though
the difference today is much greater due to oil price rises.

If brazil can achieve a state of energy equilibrium in just 3 years
why can't the US or the world in general?


>
> I believe that school vouchers are more effective than increased spending on
> public schools in enabling many poorer Americans to give their children better
> educations.

We all know why school vouchers where first introduced. Segregation.
The voucher system lowers investment i public schools while not giving
enough funding for the poor to get into a private school. This is a
system that benefits the rich not the poor.


>
> I believe that while there are racists in America, America is no longer a racist
> society, and that blaming disproportionate rates of black violence and
> out-of-wedlock births on white racism is a lie and the greatest single
> impediment to African-American progress.

A severe imbalence in black white wealth is the real problem. The
reality is crime can be linked to poverty not skin colour.

>
> I believe that America, which accepts and assimilates foreigners better than any
> other country in the world, is the least racist, least xenophobic country in the
> world.

All Americans are foreigners.


>
> I believe the leftist takeover of the liberal arts departments in nearly every
> American university has been an intellectual and moral calamity.

Again the arts promote change and its only natural that its more
attractive to liberals. So why don't you become an art teacher then
Ray?

>
> I believe that when it comes to combating the greatest evils on Earth, such as
> the genocide in Rwanda, the United Nations has either been useless or an
> obstacle.

Or the genocide in Palestine the worlds largest concentration camp.
The five permanant members of the secruity council abuse their
positions in the UN. Europe should have its own secruity council
without influence from the US, Russia or China. The US invades foreign
nations and expects our sons to enforce their foreign policy. Let them
enforce it themselves.


>
> I believe that, generally speaking, Western Europe provides social and moral
> models to be avoided, not emulated.

Then you support the US breaking all links with Europe and removing
itself from the UN and NATO.


>
> I believe that America's children were positively affected by hearing a
> non-denominational prayer each morning in school, and adversely affected by the
> removal of all prayer from school.


What about atheists Ray? Surely it should be upto the individual
parents not the state to tell children how to or when to pray.

>
> I believe that liberal educators' removal of school uniforms and/or dress codes
> has had a terrible impact on students and their education.
>
> I believe that bilingual education does not work, that for the sake of immigrant
> children and for the sake of the larger society, immersion in the language of
> the country, meaning English in America, is mandatory.
>
> I believe that English should be declared the national language, and that
> ballots should not be printed in any language other than English. If one cannot
> understand English, one is probably not sufficiently knowledgeable to vote
> intelligently in an English-speaking country.

What about Puerto Rico's where Spanish is the first language and its
citizens hold statutory U.S. citizenship.


>
> Finally, I believe that there are millions of Americans who share most of these
> beliefs who still call themselves "liberal" or "progressive" and who therefore
> vote Democrat. They do so because they still identify liberalism with pre-1970
> liberalism or because they are emotionally attached to the word "liberal.> I share that emotion. But one should vote based on values, not emotions.
>
> Source:http://560wind.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/12/why_i_...
>
> What say you?

I think Ray you are unable to look objectively or have experience of
living in a war zone or being crippled by poverty. Thats the true
difference between a liberal and a neo conservative.


>
> Ray
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
> of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...

> I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and foster
> goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and professors in 
> America put
> together.

Tell that to the Indians.

> What say you?

'I believe' is no substitute for 'I know for a fact.'

"Sophistry Made Simple"  wrote in message 
news:FCook.26696$j7.472566@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
> news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
>
>> I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and foster
>> goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and professors in 
>> America put
>> together.
>
> Tell that to the Indians.
>
>> What say you?
>
> 'I believe' is no substitute for 'I know for a fact.'

Don't mock please. I'd like to thank Ray for finally explaining something 
that's been troubling me; that is, the difference in overall performance, 
man for man, between UK and US forces. The British Army is full of soldiers, 
the American Army is full of social workers.

-- 
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
------------------------------

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:45:05 -0700 (PDT), freeireland 
wrote:

>On 12 Aug, 18:51, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not one!
>>
>> ====
>> The following is a list of beliefs that I hold. Nearly every one of them was a
>> liberal position until the late 1960s. Not one of them is now.
>
>That clearly shows the lack of understanding of liberalism.
>Liberalism is about changing often radically, thats why it generally
>appeals to youth.

Your taking that out of context, you have to take it as part of the entire
article...  

>
>>
>> Such a list is vitally important in order to clarify exactly what positions
>> divide left from right, blue from red, liberal from conservative.
>>
>> I believe in American exceptionalism, meaning that (a) America has done more
>> than any international organization or institution, and more than any other
>> country, to improve this world; and (b) that American values (specifically, the
>> unique American blending of Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian values) form the
>> finest value system any society has ever devised and lived by.
>
>lol, Maybe you should go and live in downtown Bagdad for a while then
>Ray. Tell me how things their have improved when you stop tripping
>over the shallow graves. The US are the new imperialists taking over
>from where Britian left off.

Nonsense!  The US are (as in Babylon 5) our last best hope! for salvation and
humanity!

>> I believe that the bigger government gets and the more powerful the state
>> becomes, the greater the threat to individual liberty and the greater the
>> likelihood that evil will ensue. In the 20th century, the powerful state, not
>> religion, was the greatest purveyor of evil in the world.
>
>Yeah thats right Ray religion has an exellent track record!

This more a States Rights Vs Federal Government's rights issue here... Liberals
want a "nanny state" whereas Conservatives want the government to interfere in
the day to day lives as little as possible...

>
>>
>> I believe that the levels of taxation advocated by liberals render those taxes a
>> veiled form of theft. "Give me more than half of your honestly earned money or
>> you will be arrested" is legalized thievery.
>
>So you are calling for the end of all taxation?

No, but a Flat Tax as proposed by Huckabee might be acceptable...



>
>>
>> I believe that government funding of those who can help themselves (e.g., the
>> able-bodied who collect welfare) or who can be helped by non-governmental
>> institutions (such as private charities, family, and friends) hurts them and
>> hurts society.
>
>How would you know. The economic downturn  which lies at the hands of
>banks and the governments will leave a lot of good hardworking men
>without work. I think years of paying taxes entitles them to
>something.

How about a "welfare to work" solution?  Collecting garbage, clearning up
streets, parks, etc...  ?   A hand up not a hand out!?


>> I believe that the United States of America, from its inception, has been based
>> on the Judeo-Christian value system, not secular Enlightenment values alone, and
>> therefore the secularization of American society will lead to the collapse of
>> America as a great country.
>
>How can a country which has 1/3 of all children living below the
>poverty line or takes weeks to respone to a natural disater in New
>Orleans be considered great.

Very few are living below the poverty line in America...  Minimum wage (which is
a joke - and I'll keep that for another day) sees to that...  If you want to
work in this country...  you can!  Simple as that!   This country has afforded
me oppertunities I could not get in Ireland...  

>
>
>>
>> I believe that some murderers should be put death; that allowing all murderers
>> to live does not elevate the value of human life, but mocks it, and that keeping
>> all murderers alive trivializes the evil of murder.
>
>Who are you to put value on life. As a christian you must believe that
>is a role for God and its for him to give and take life.

Serial killers, rapists and child molesters (especially them) deserve no longer
to live...  They gave up the right to be called human when they indulged in such
terrible crimes...  Society needs to set an example...  If anything I wish the
Death Penalty was used much more!!!

>
>>
>> I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and foster
>> goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and professors in America put
>> together.
>
>lol, then why all the anti american resentment across the entire
>planet Ray. All the US military has done has enforced a murderous
>foreign policy in countries thousands of miles away.

You have to take into consideration the media is mostly liberal, and this is
true in Europe as it is here...  And they have given up presenting news, and now
present opinion disguised as news to forward a socialist-liberal agenda...  THAT
is why the US military get bad press!

>
>
>>
>> I believe that lowering standards to admit minorities mocks the real
>> achievements of members of those minorities.
>
>This coming from a person from the Irish minority. If you believe this
>Ray you should eject yourself.

This statement is with regard to affirmative action...  Whereas minorities, just
because they are minorities get the job they apply for when there is a more
qualified non-minority available to fulfill some socialist/liberal quota
system...  

>
>>
>> I believe that when schools give teenagers condoms, it is understood by most
>> teenagers as tacit approval of their engaging in sexual intercourse.
>
>Teenagers have been practicing sex long before the invention of
>condoms.

The same schools that will bring a child to have an illegal abortion without the
consent of the parents balk at teaching abstainism as a mean of not getting
pregnant...  You tell me that this is acceptable to you?


>
>>
>> I believe that the assertions that manmade carbon emissions will lead to a
>> global warming that will in turn bring on worldwide disaster are a function of
>> hysteria, just as was the widespread liberal belief that heterosexual AIDS will
>> ravage America.
>
>I to apoint agree with the hysteria however I have no problem with
>respecting the planet we live on. The unrepenting dumping of plastic
>waste is a much greater danger.

We agree!!!    I'm for protecting the environment so long as it's done with
logic and thought, not mindless emotionalism from the likes of Gore...


>> I believe that marriage must remain what has been in every recorded civilization
>> -- between the two sexes.
>
>There could be good arguments for and against same sex marriages,
>civil partnerships or whatever.  Gay orgies have been recorded in
>almost every recorded civilisation yet I doubt you would promote that.

I would not promote that...  The problem with gay marriage here is the "Equal
protection" clause of the Constitution...  This is the clause that gays use to
demand the "right" to "marry"...  However when States give in...  They open the
door to other minorities and some say that a Brother and Sister or a Mom and Son
or a Father and Daughter or even a man and several animals should be allowed to
marry becaues according to these people, their love is just as valid as the gays
and deserves "equal protection"...  It's a slippery slope and that is why
Conservatives fight for family values and proper marriage rather than allow a
few gloryhunters and mediawhores to force their agenda on the vast majority...
Here in my state the Gay agenda was foisted upon us and we cannot repeal it...  


>> I believe that, whatever the reasons for entering Iraq, the American-led removal
>> of Saddam Hussein from power will decrease the sum total of cruelty on Earth.
>
>Then why not invade Russia or China?   What gives you or the US
>governemnt who killed almost 2 million in vietnam the right to decide
>that?

The world intelligence forces reported that Iraq had WMD...  Sadam himself said
so every other day...  And his denial of the weapons inspectors didn't do
anything to help him...  17 UN resolutions later...  Someone had to act for the
sake of humanity...   

>> I believe that the trial lawyers associations and teachers unions, the greatest
>> donors to the Democratic Party, have done great harm to American life -- far
>> more than, let us say, oil companies and pharmaceutical companies, the targets
>> of liberal opprobrium.
>
>The same oil companies whos profits have gone threw the roof because
>of your $4 gallon you mean.

It's a capatalist society here... I don't believe in punishing those who make a
profit from their business...  Did you ever look up how much those same oil
companies pay in taxes?  Thought not!

>
>
>>
>> I believe that nuclear power, clean coal, and drilling in a tiny and remote
>> frozen part of Alaska and offshore -- along with exploration of other energy
>> alternatives such as wind and solar power -- are immediately necessary.
>
>lol, Again none of these are viable in the long term, nuclear, coal
>and oil are of a limited resource.

In 1998 Democrats vetoed Drilling on the grounds that it would take 10 years to
produce any oil...  Well guess what?  It's 10 years later and we could have done
with that oil...  Now we Drill so that in 10 more years we won't be talking
about what we should have done 10 years ago!  Obama is against drilling...  God
knows why, it makes no sense!


>In 2006, Brazil cut its oil dependency in just 3 years achieving a
>state of energy equilibrium, that is using the smae amount of oil as
>it exports. In these 3 years with a population of 185 million 100% of
>cars converted to a flex-fuel system of either sugar based ethanol or
>gasoline. 100% ethanol was 50% of the cost of gasoline in 2006 though
>the difference today is much greater due to oil price rises.
>
>If brazil can achieve a state of energy equilibrium in just 3 years
>why can't the US or the world in general?

Many here think that we need to try new ways to reduce our dependence on foreign
oil... I'm for that...  So long as it's part of a greater overall plan to drill
here and drill now!

>> I believe that school vouchers are more effective than increased spending on
>> public schools in enabling many poorer Americans to give their children better
>> educations.
>
>We all know why school vouchers where first introduced. Segregation.

No... It was introduced to break the School Unions....

>The voucher system lowers investment i public schools while not giving
>enough funding for the poor to get into a private school. This is a
>system that benefits the rich not the poor.

The school voucher scheme was introduced to help the very poor you speak of who
have no choice what public school their kids go to because of the way the public
school system works...  Vouchers were to allow parents to make a better decision
to allow them to refuse to send their children to schools that were gang
infested drug dens and failing and put them in a school that might at least give
them a chance at succeeding and getting out of the ghetto by becoming more
educated...

>> I believe that while there are racists in America, America is no longer a racist
>> society, and that blaming disproportionate rates of black violence and
>> out-of-wedlock births on white racism is a lie and the greatest single
>> impediment to African-American progress.
>
>A severe imbalence in black white wealth is the real problem. The
>reality is crime can be linked to poverty not skin colour.
>

Actually, I agree with you here to a point...  Just don't say this to Al
Sharpton or Jessie Jackson...  They've made millions on the backs of the blacks
they exploit with their "victim" nonsense....

>> I believe that America, which accepts and assimilates foreigners better than any
>> other country in the world, is the least racist, least xenophobic country in the
>> world.
>
>All Americans are foreigners.
>

Now... Be sensible...  Did you ever read any European history?


>> I believe the leftist takeover of the liberal arts departments in nearly every
>> American university has been an intellectual and moral calamity.
>
>Again the arts promote change and its only natural that its more
>attractive to liberals. So why don't you become an art teacher then
>Ray?

I'm not a Liberal...  I can understand where they come from, I just think they
are wrong headed...

>> I believe that when it comes to combating the greatest evils on Earth, such as
>> the genocide in Rwanda, the United Nations has either been useless or an
>> obstacle.
>
>Or the genocide in Palestine the worlds largest concentration camp.

The Other Islamic Nations are happy to keep this kettle boiling as it allows
them to feel self justified in all it's butchery and mayhem...  If the other
Islamic countries gave a damn, they'd import someting like compassion to Gaza
and not just terrorists and bombs!  Truth be told...  Most Islamists are happy
to have Gaza as a festering wound they can point to to justify all sorts of
terrorism and hatred...   


>The five permanant members of the secruity council abuse their
>positions in the UN. 

China, Russia and France...  Those bastions of Right Wing Politics? Er... Right?

The UN is a joke...  It's corrupt and useless...  It's time it went away....

>Europe should have its own secruity council
>without influence from the US, Russia or China. The US invades foreign
>nations and expects our sons to enforce their foreign policy. Let them
>enforce it themselves.

Russia and China back Iran...  Do you want them in your Security Council?


>> I believe that, generally speaking, Western Europe provides social and moral
>> models to be avoided, not emulated.
>
>Then you support the US breaking all links with Europe and removing
>itself from the UN and NATO.

From the UN yes... NATO need to be reformed and refocused to face the new
threats of this time!  Europe is our natural ally and we will not break links
with Europe...  America saved Europe in ww2 and saved Europe from Communist
aggression and what thanks do we get?


>> I believe that America's children were positively affected by hearing a
>> non-denominational prayer each morning in school, and adversely affected by the
>> removal of all prayer from school.
>
>
>What about atheists Ray? Surely it should be upto the individual
>parents not the state to tell children how to or when to pray.

They can leave the class/room or sit silently and feel all superiour because
they think they know it all...  The vast majority should never be ruled by the
tiny minoity when it comes to religion...


>> I believe that liberal educators' removal of school uniforms and/or dress codes
>> has had a terrible impact on students and their education.
>>

Your silence says you agree...  Good...

>> I believe that bilingual education does not work, that for the sake of immigrant
>> children and for the sake of the larger society, immersion in the language of
>> the country, meaning English in America, is mandatory.
>>

Your silence says you agree...  Good...


>> I believe that English should be declared the national language, and that
>> ballots should not be printed in any language other than English. If one cannot
>> understand English, one is probably not sufficiently knowledgeable to vote
>> intelligently in an English-speaking country.
>
>What about Puerto Rico's where Spanish is the first language and its
>citizens hold statutory U.S. citizenship.

That's not America, that's a protectorate...  Anyone wanting to do business here
and be successful needs to speak proper english... Simple as that!


>> Finally, I believe that there are millions of Americans who share most of these
>> beliefs who still call themselves "liberal" or "progressive" and who therefore
>> vote Democrat. They do so because they still identify liberalism with pre-1970
>> liberalism or because they are emotionally attached to the word "liberal."
>>
>> I share that emotion. But one should vote based on values, not emotions.
>>
>> Source:http://560wind.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/12/why_i_...
>>
>> What say you?
>
>I think Ray you are unable to look objectively or have experience of
>living in a war zone or being crippled by poverty. Thats the true
>difference between a liberal and a neo conservative.

Your just plain wrong... You are stuck in a socialist state and your information
and possible experiences have been molded in that way allowing you not to see
the truth...  I too lived in such a socialist state, and I fought it...  I will
not allow a "nanny state" to dictate to me how to live...  I prefer freedom and
democracy!

God Bless America!!!!!

Ray


---------------------------------------------------------------
We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
---------------------------------------------------------------

On 13 Aug, 21:30, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:45:05 -0700 (PDT), freeireland 
> wrote:
>
> >On 12 Aug, 18:51, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote:
> >> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
> >> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not one!
>
> >> ====
> >> The following is a list of beliefs that I hold. Nearly every one of them was a
> >> liberal position until the late 1960s. Not one of them is now.
>
> >That clearly shows the lack of understanding of liberalism.
> >Liberalism is about changing often radically, thats why it generally
> >appeals to youth.
>
> Your taking that out of context, you have to take it as part of the entire
> article...

Its not out of context, you clearly stated that your values where
liberal values in the 1960s. The broad definition of a liberal is
wanting change. The point I was making is if liberals wanted the same
things now as they did in the 1960's they could no longer be refered
to as liberals. Liberals of today are tommorrows conservatives!
Again you are an example of this when you say "The following is a list
of beliefs that I hold. Nearly every one of them was a liberal
position until the late 1960s". Its called classic liberalism.

>
>
>
> >> Such a list is vitally important in order to clarify exactly what positions
> >> divide left from right, blue from red, liberal from conservative.
>
> >> I believe in American exceptionalism, meaning that (a) America has done more
> >> than any international organization or institution, and more than any other
> >> country, to improve this world; and (b) that American values (specifically, the
> >> unique American blending of Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian values) form the
> >> finest value system any society has ever devised and lived by.
>
> >lol, Maybe you should go and live in downtown Bagdad for a while then
> >Ray. Tell me how things their have improved when you stop tripping
> >over the shallow graves. The US are the new imperialists taking over
> >from where Britian left off.
>
> Nonsense!  The US are (as in Babylon 5) our last best hope! for salvation and
> humanity!

What gives you or America the right to decide whats best for the rest
of the world.


>
> >> I believe that the bigger government gets and the more powerful the state
> >> becomes, the greater the threat to individual liberty and the greater the
> >> likelihood that evil will ensue. In the 20th century, the powerful state, not
> >> religion, was the greatest purveyor of evil in the world.
>
> >Yeah thats right Ray religion has an exellent track record!
>
> This more a States Rights Vs Federal Government's rights issue here... Liberals
> want a "nanny state" whereas Conservatives want the government to interfere in
> the day to day lives as little as possible...
>

Again only certain forms of liberals want these. Many including
classic liberalsbelieve the only real freedom is freedom from coercion
including that from the government.  This again shows your lack of
understanding about what liberalism actually is certainly when using
wide ranging accusations and tarring them all with one brush or
policy.

The only reall true change between liberalism and conservatism is
change to tradition.


>
>
> >> I believe that the levels of taxation advocated by liberals render those taxes a
> >> veiled form of theft. "Give me more than half of your honestly earned money or
> >> you will be arrested" is legalized thievery.
>
> >So you are calling for the end of all taxation?
>
> No, but a Flat Tax as proposed by Huckabee might be acceptable...
>

What do you suggest doing with people who cannot afford to pay?

>
>
> >> I believe that government funding of those who can help themselves (e.g., the
> >> able-bodied who collect welfare) or who can be helped by non-governmental
> >> institutions (such as private charities, family, and friends) hurts them and
> >> hurts society.
>
> >How would you know. The economic downturn  which lies at the hands of
> >banks and the governments will leave a lot of good hardworking men
> >without work. I think years of paying taxes entitles them to
> >something.
>
> How about a "welfare to work" solution?  Collecting garbage, clearning up
> streets, parks, etc...  ?   A hand up not a hand out!?

Thats been tried before and similar schemes are currently being run in
the UK. They are nothing more than a con to make the governments
unemployment figures look good. They have been a failure.


>
> >> I believe that the United States of America, from its inception, has been based
> >> on the Judeo-Christian value system, not secular Enlightenment values alone, and
> >> therefore the secularization of American society will lead to the collapse of
> >> America as a great country.
>
> >How can a country which has 1/3 of all children living below the
> >poverty line or takes weeks to respone to a natural disater in New
> >Orleans be considered great.
>
> Very few are living below the poverty line in America...  Minimum wage (which is
> a joke - and I'll keep that for another day) sees to that...  If you want to
> work in this country...  you can!  Simple as that!   This country has afforded
> me oppertunities I could not get in Ireland...
>

The poverty line according to the US government is those lacking those
goods and services commonly taken for granted by members of mainstream
society. Between 12% to 16% live below the poverty line at any one
time with 40% below it in a 10 year span and 58.5% of all Americans
living below it at some time between the ages of 25 and 75.  In
2006the poverty rate for under 18s was the higher in the US than any
other so called western state/country.


>
>
> >> I believe that some murderers should be put death; that allowing all murderers
> >> to live does not elevate the value of human life, but mocks it, and that keeping
> >> all murderers alive trivializes the evil of murder.
>
> >Who are you to put value on life. As a christian you must believe that
> >is a role for God and its for him to give and take life.
>
> Serial killers, rapists and child molesters (especially them) deserve no longer
> to live...  They gave up the right to be called human when they indulged in such
> terrible crimes...  Society needs to set an example...  If anything I wish the
> Death Penalty was used much more!!!
>

Again Ray what gives you the right to decide who lives or dies? Can
you show me the evidence that your so called setting an example
actually does set an example and reduces crime.


>
>
> >> I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and foster
> >> goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and professors in America put
> >> together.
>
> >lol, then why all the anti american resentment across the entire
> >planet Ray. All the US military has done has enforced a murderous
> >foreign policy in countries thousands of miles away.
>
> You have to take into consideration the media is mostly liberal, and this is
> true in Europe as it is here...  And they have given up presenting news, and now
> present opinion disguised as news to forward a socialist-liberal agenda...  THAT
> is why the US military get bad press!
>

Yawn blame the liberal rhetoric again. The US military get a bad press
because of things such as sex crimes in Abu Graib, torture sorry
retention flights, invasions of foreign nations to force regime
change. How many countries Ray do you think US soldiers have been in
conflict in since the end of WW II?


>
>
> >> I believe that lowering standards to admit minorities mocks the real
> >> achievements of members of those minorities.
>
> >This coming from a person from the Irish minority. If you believe this
> >Ray you should eject yourself.
>
> This statement is with regard to affirmative action...  Whereas minorities, just
> because they are minorities get the job they apply for when there is a more
> qualified non-minority available to fulfill some socialist/liberal quota
> system...
>

You sure about that Ray, what do you suggest doing with the capitalist
conservatives using them as cheap labour?



>
>
> >> I believe that when schools give teenagers condoms, it is understood by most
> >> teenagers as tacit approval of their engaging in sexual intercourse.
>
> >Teenagers have been practicing sex long before the invention of
> >condoms.
>
> The same schools that will bring a child to have an illegal abortion without the
> consent of the parents balk at teaching abstainism as a mean of not getting
> pregnant...  You tell me that this is acceptable to you?
>

A change of tack, here is a slight reality check for you Ray first
schools do teach abstainism however they unlike you are realistic.
Since the dawn of time teenagers have been having sex and will
continue to do so. Thats human nature and its a bit strange that some
states eg New Hampshire in the US allow girls as young as 13 to
marry.


>
>
> >> I believe that the assertions that manmade carbon emissions will lead to a
> >> global warming that will in turn bring on worldwide disaster are a function of
> >> hysteria, just as was the widespread liberal belief that heterosexual AIDS will
> >> ravage America.
>
> >I to apoint agree with the hysteria however I have no problem with
> >respecting the planet we live on. The unrepenting dumping of plastic
> >waste is a much greater danger.
>
> We agree!!!    I'm for protecting the environment so long as it's done with
> logic and thought, not mindless emotionalism from the likes of Gore...
>
> >> I believe that marriage must remain what has been in every recorded civilization
> >> -- between the two sexes.
>
> >There could be good arguments for and against same sex marriages,
> >civil partnerships or whatever.  Gay orgies have been recorded in
> >almost every recorded civilisation yet I doubt you would promote that.
>
> I would not promote that...  The problem with gay marriage here is the "Equal
> protection" clause of the Constitution...  This is the clause that gays use to
> demand the "right" to "marry"...  However when States give in...  They open the
> door to other minorities and some say that a Brother and Sister or a Mom and Son
> or a Father and Daughter or even a man and several animals should be allowed to
> marry becaues according to these people, their love is just as valid as the gays
> and deserves "equal protection"...  It's a slippery slope and that is why
> Conservatives fight for family values and proper marriage rather than allow a
> few gloryhunters and mediawhores to force their agenda on the vast majority...
> Here in my state the Gay agenda was foisted upon us and we cannot repeal it...

Your original reasoning was flawed that was my point. Marriage for me
is the best situation to raise children. However I also believe gay
couples, brothers or sisters sharing a home for a life time should get
some of the benefits of a married couple. For exapme If one dies the
other should get full and free ownership of the house. Its the failing
of the government to distingush the two cases that have led to the gay
marriage.

>
> >> I believe that, whatever the reasons for entering Iraq, the American-led removal
> >> of Saddam Hussein from power will decrease the sum total of cruelty on Earth.
>
> >Then why not invade Russia or China?   What gives you or the US
> >governemnt who killed almost 2 million in vietnam the right to decide
> >that?
>
> The world intelligence forces reported that Iraq had WMD...  Sadam himself said
> so every other day...  And his denial of the weapons inspectors didn't do
> anything to help him...  17 UN resolutions later...  Someone had to act for the
> sake of humanity...

U.N. weapons inspectors from November 2002 until March 2003 did not
find any evidence of WMDs whatsoever Ray!

The American Type Culture Collection non profit organisation sent
anthrax, West Nile virus, botulism, Brucella melitensis and
clostridium perfringens to Iraq before 1989. The Arms-to-Iraq affair
is widely documented.

"The ISG has not found evidence that Saddam possessed WMD stocks in
2003, but [there is] the possibility that some weapons existed in
Iraq, although not of a militarily significant capability."

September 30, 2004, the U.S. Iraq Survey Group Final Report.

>
> >> I believe that the trial lawyers associations and teachers unions, the greatest
> >> donors to the Democratic Party, have done great harm to American life -- far
> >> more than, let us say, oil companies and pharmaceutical companies, the targets
> >> of liberal opprobrium.
>
> >The same oil companies whos profits have gone threw the roof because
> >of your $4 gallon you mean.
>
> It's a capatalist society here... I don't believe in punishing those who make a
> profit from their business...  Did you ever look up how much those same oil
> companies pay in taxes?  Thought not!

Then you should stop whinging about the price of gas.


>
>
>
> >> I believe that nuclear power, clean coal, and drilling in a tiny and remote
> >> frozen part of Alaska and offshore -- along with exploration of other energy
> >> alternatives such as wind and solar power -- are immediately necessary.
>
> >lol, Again none of these are viable in the long term, nuclear, coal
> >and oil are of a limited resource.
>
> In 1998 Democrats vetoed Drilling on the grounds that it would take 10 years to
> produce any oil...  Well guess what?  It's 10 years later and we could have done
> with that oil...  Now we Drill so that in 10 more years we won't be talking
> about what we should have done 10 years ago!  Obama is against drilling...  God
> knows why, it makes no sense!

At the rate of US consumption it would have little impact on fuel
price. It would be drilled and refined by the same companies supplying
you with oil now who have no vested interest in lowering prices
( capitalism) and the supply is still limited.


>
> >In 2006, Brazil cut its oil dependency in just 3 years achieving a
> >state of energy equilibrium, that is using the smae amount of oil as
> >it exports. In these 3 years with a population of 185 million 100% of
> >cars converted to a flex-fuel system of either sugar based ethanol or
> >gasoline. 100% ethanol was 50% of the cost of gasoline in 2006 though
> >the difference today is much greater due to oil price rises.
>
> >If brazil can achieve a state of energy equilibrium in just 3 years
> >why can't the US or the world in general?
>
> Many here think that we need to try new ways to reduce our dependence on foreign
> oil... I'm for that...  So long as it's part of a greater overall plan to drill
> here and drill now!

the reality is your President is an oil man and has no interest in
shifting away from the oil companies making him and your country
millions.


>
> >> I believe that school vouchers are more effective than increased spending on
> >> public schools in enabling many poorer Americans to give their children better
> >> educations.
>
> >We all know why school vouchers where first introduced. Segregation.
>
> No... It was introduced to break the School Unions....

You should actually look into the segregation academies Ray.

>
> >The voucher system lowers investment i public schools while not giving
> >enough funding for the poor to get into a private school. This is a
> >system that benefits the rich not the poor.
>
> The school voucher scheme was introduced to help the very poor you speak of who
> have no choice what public school their kids go to because of the way the public
> school system works...  Vouchers were to allow parents to make a better decision
> to allow them to refuse to send their children to schools that were gang
> infested drug dens and failing and put them in a school that might at least give
> them a chance at succeeding and getting out of the ghetto by becoming more
> educated...

School vouchers do not give poorer  parents a choice because they only
give enough value for them to goto other schools. Its a system used to
reduce public school spending and privatise the education system.


>
> >> I believe that while there are racists in America, America is no longer a racist
> >> society, and that blaming disproportionate rates of black violence and
> >> out-of-wedlock births on white racism is a lie and the greatest single
> >> impediment to African-American progress.
>
> >A severe imbalence in black white wealth is the real problem. The
> >reality is crime can be linked to poverty not skin colour.
>
> Actually, I agree with you here to a point...  Just don't say this to Al
> Sharpton or Jessie Jackson...  They've made millions on the backs of the blacks
> they exploit with their "victim" nonsense....

Many whites have many even more of the backs of these blacks. Then
when some blacks do make a career you accuse them of profiteering.


>
> >> I believe that America, which accepts and assimilates foreigners better than any
> >> other country in the world, is the least racist, least xenophobic country in the
> >> world.
>
> >All Americans are foreigners.
>
> Now... Be sensible...  Did you ever read any European history?

Just because most of Europe is does no make it any less a fact. Its
just an nation built by immigrants rejecting immigrants is a bit
ironic.


>
> >> I believe the leftist takeover of the liberal arts departments in nearly every
> >> American university has been an intellectual and moral calamity.
>
> >Again the arts promote change and its only natural that its more
> >attractive to liberals. So why don't you become an art teacher then
> >Ray?
>
> I'm not a Liberal...  I can understand where they come from, I just think they
> are wrong headed...

Then become a Art Teacher or stop whinging.


>
> >> I believe that when it comes to combating the greatest evils on Earth, such as
> >> the genocide in Rwanda, the United Nations has either been useless or an
> >> obstacle.
>
> >Or the genocide in Palestine the worlds largest concentration camp.
>
> The Other Islamic Nations are happy to keep this kettle boiling as it allows
> them to feel self justified in all it's butchery and mayhem...  If the other
> Islamic countries gave a damn, they'd import someting like compassion to Gaza
> and not just terrorists and bombs!  Truth be told...  Most Islamists are happy
> to have Gaza as a festering wound they can point to to justify all sorts of
> terrorism and hatred...

I am sorry Ray but what gives you the right to talk on the behalf of
mmost Islamists. This statement is bordering on racism. The US should
just pull out of the middle east and let them solve their own
problems.


>
> >The five permanant members of the secruity council abuse their
> >positions in the UN.
>
> China, Russia and France...  Those bastions of Right Wing Politics? Er... Right?

I never said they where but all those nations with Vetos abuse their
position.

>
> The UN is a joke...  It's corrupt and useless...  It's time it went away....

Though at least it keeps the gun ho imperialist US at bay to a degree.


>
> >Europe should have its own secruity council
> >without influence from the US, Russia or China. The US invades foreign
> >nations and expects our sons to enforce their foreign policy. Let them
> >enforce it themselves.
>
> Russia and China back Iran...  Do you want them in your Security Council?


Russia and China keep Iran in toe. Read the statement again, I clearly
say no US, Russia or China.



>
> >> I believe that, generally speaking, Western Europe provides social and moral
> >> models to be avoided, not emulated.
>
> >Then you support the US breaking all links with Europe and removing
> >itself from the UN and NATO.
>
> From the UN yes... NATO need to be reformed and refocused to face the new
> threats of this time!  Europe is our natural ally and we will not break links
> with Europe...  America saved Europe in ww2 and saved Europe from Communist
> aggression and what thanks do we get?

the problem is who will save us from the US.

>
> >> I believe that America's children were positively affected by hearing a
> >> non-denominational prayer each morning in school, and adversely affected by the
> >> removal of all prayer from school.
>
> >What about atheists Ray? Surely it should be upto the individual
> >parents not the state to tell children how to or when to pray.
>
> They can leave the class/room or sit silently and feel all superiour because
> they think they know it all...  The vast majority should never be ruled by the
> tiny minoity when it comes to religion...

Schools and religon are too different things, maybe you will suggest
teaching the earth is flat or ban Darwins theories from Science classs
next. Are you sure you have a vast majority of Americans wanted what
you claim Ray, can you show me the referendum results?


>
> >> I believe that liberal educators' removal of school uniforms and/or dress codes
> >> has had a terrible impact on students and their education.
>
> Your silence says you agree...  Good...

Jump to assumptions again, show me any evidence that proves your
claim?


>
> >> I believe that bilingual education does not work, that for the sake of immigrant
> >> children and for the sake of the larger society, immersion in the language of
> >> the country, meaning English in America, is mandatory.
>
> Your silence says you agree...  Good...

Jump to assumptions again, show me any evidence that proves your
claim?

>
> >> I believe that English should be declared the national language, and that
> >> ballots should not be printed in any language other than English. If one cannot
> >> understand English, one is probably not sufficiently knowledgeable to vote
> >> intelligently in an English-speaking country.
>
> >What about Puerto Rico's where Spanish is the first language and its
> >citizens hold statutory U.S. citizenship.
>
> That's not America, that's a protectorate...  Anyone wanting to do business here
> and be successful needs to speak proper english... Simple as that!

Maybe if Americans had the ability to learn new languages they would
be culturely richer. Just look at mainland Europe.

>
> >> Finally, I believe that there are millions of Americans who share most of these
> >> beliefs who still call themselves "liberal" or "progressive" and who therefore
> >> vote Democrat. They do so because they still identify liberalism with pre-1970
> >> liberalism or because they are emotionally attached to the word "liberal."
>
> >> I share that emotion. But one should vote based on values, not emotions.
>
> >> Source:http://560wind.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/08/12/why_i_...
>
> >> What say you?
>
> >I think Ray you are unable to look objectively or have experience of
> >living in a war zone or being crippled by poverty. Thats the true
> >difference between a liberal and a neo conservative.
>
> Your just plain wrong... You are stuck in a socialist state and your information
> and possible experiences have been molded in that way allowing you not to see
> the truth...  I too lived in such a socialist state, and I fought it...  I will
> not allow a "nanny state" to dictate to me how to live...  I prefer freedom and
> democracy!
>

So tell me Ray how Northern Ireland is a socialist state?



> God Bless America!!!!!
>
> Ray
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
> of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:45:05 -0700 (PDT), freeireland
>  wrote:
>
>> On 12 Aug, 18:51, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>" 
>> wrote:
>>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it... this is for
>>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals... And here is why I am
>>> not one!
>>>
>>> ====
>>> The following is a list of beliefs that I hold. Nearly every one of
>>> them was a liberal position until the late 1960s. Not one of them
>>> is now.
>>
>> That clearly shows the lack of understanding of liberalism.
>> Liberalism is about changing often radically, thats why it generally
>> appeals to youth.
>
> Your taking that out of context, you have to take it as part of the
> entire article...
>
>>
>>>
>>> Such a list is vitally important in order to clarify exactly what
>>> positions divide left from right, blue from red, liberal from
>>> conservative.
>>>
>>> I believe in American exceptionalism, meaning that (a) America has
>>> done more than any international organization or institution, and
>>> more than any other country, to improve this world; and (b) that
>>> American values (specifically, the unique American blending of
>>> Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian values) form the finest value
>>> system any society has ever devised and lived by.
>>
>> lol, Maybe you should go and live in downtown Bagdad for a while then
>> Ray. Tell me how things their have improved when you stop tripping
>> over the shallow graves. The US are the new imperialists taking over
>> from where Britian left off.
>
> Nonsense!  The US are (as in Babylon 5) our last best hope! for
> salvation and humanity!

Never going to happen!

>
>>> I believe that the bigger government gets and the more powerful the
>>> state becomes, the greater the threat to individual liberty and the
>>> greater the likelihood that evil will ensue. In the 20th century,
>>> the powerful state, not religion, was the greatest purveyor of evil
>>> in the world.
>>
>> Yeah thats right Ray religion has an exellent track record!
>
> This more a States Rights Vs Federal Government's rights issue
> here... Liberals want a "nanny state" whereas Conservatives want the
> government to interfere in the day to day lives as little as
> possible...

Don't think so!

>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the levels of taxation advocated by liberals render
>>> those taxes a veiled form of theft. "Give me more than half of your
>>> honestly earned money or you will be arrested" is legalized
>>> thievery.
>>
>> So you are calling for the end of all taxation?
>
> No, but a Flat Tax as proposed by Huckabee might be acceptable...
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that government funding of those who can help themselves
>>> (e.g., the able-bodied who collect welfare) or who can be helped by
>>> non-governmental institutions (such as private charities, family,
>>> and friends) hurts them and hurts society.
>>
>> How would you know. The economic downturn  which lies at the hands of
>> banks and the governments will leave a lot of good hardworking men
>> without work. I think years of paying taxes entitles them to
>> something.
>
> How about a "welfare to work" solution?  Collecting garbage,
> clearning up streets, parks, etc...  ?   A hand up not a hand out!?
>
>
>>> I believe that the United States of America, from its inception,
>>> has been based on the Judeo-Christian value system, not secular
>>> Enlightenment values alone, and therefore the secularization of
>>> American society will lead to the collapse of America as a great
>>> country.
>>
>> How can a country which has 1/3 of all children living below the
>> poverty line or takes weeks to respone to a natural disater in New
>> Orleans be considered great.
>
> Very few are living below the poverty line in America...  Minimum
> wage (which is a joke - and I'll keep that for another day) sees to
> that...  If you want to work in this country...  you can!  Simple as
> that!   This country has afforded me oppertunities I could not get in
> Ireland...

Wonder why that is?

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that some murderers should be put death; that allowing
>>> all murderers to live does not elevate the value of human life, but
>>> mocks it, and that keeping all murderers alive trivializes the evil
>>> of murder.
>>
>> Who are you to put value on life. As a christian you must believe
>> that is a role for God and its for him to give and take life.
>
> Serial killers, rapists and child molesters (especially them) deserve
> no longer to live...  They gave up the right to be called human when
> they indulged in such terrible crimes...  Society needs to set an
> example...  If anything I wish the Death Penalty was used much more!!!

The US justice system is unfair and inhumane. Badly needs a reconstruct.

>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the American military has done more to preserve and
>>> foster goodness and liberty on Earth than all the artists and
>>> professors in America put together.
>>
>> lol, then why all the anti american resentment across the entire
>> planet Ray. All the US military has done has enforced a murderous
>> foreign policy in countries thousands of miles away.
>
> You have to take into consideration the media is mostly liberal, and
> this is true in Europe as it is here...  And they have given up
> presenting news, and now present opinion disguised as news to forward
> a socialist-liberal agenda...  THAT is why the US military get bad
> press!

Cannot argue with that.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that lowering standards to admit minorities mocks the real
>>> achievements of members of those minorities.
>>
>> This coming from a person from the Irish minority. If you believe
>> this Ray you should eject yourself.
>
> This statement is with regard to affirmative action...  Whereas
> minorities, just because they are minorities get the job they apply
> for when there is a more qualified non-minority available to fulfill
> some socialist/liberal quota system...

Individuals of any minority should be rewarded for their individual 
achievements, NOT the minority as a whole!

>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that when schools give teenagers condoms, it is
>>> understood by most teenagers as tacit approval of their engaging in
>>> sexual intercourse.
>>
>> Teenagers have been practicing sex long before the invention of
>> condoms.
>
> The same schools that will bring a child to have an illegal abortion
> without the consent of the parents balk at teaching abstainism as a
> mean of not getting pregnant...  You tell me that this is acceptable
> to you?

Kids of any age will experiment with sex. They should be protected. And with 
proper parental support their should be NO mistake about the results of 
unprotected sex and the hazards therein. Fundamentalist attitudes here are 
totally non-productive.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the assertions that manmade carbon emissions will
>>> lead to a global warming that will in turn bring on worldwide
>>> disaster are a function of hysteria, just as was the widespread
>>> liberal belief that heterosexual AIDS will ravage America.
>>
>> I to apoint agree with the hysteria however I have no problem with
>> respecting the planet we live on. The unrepenting dumping of plastic
>> waste is a much greater danger.
>
> We agree!!!    I'm for protecting the environment so long as it's
> done with logic and thought, not mindless emotionalism from the likes
> of Gore...
>
>
>>> I believe that marriage must remain what has been in every recorded
>>> civilization -- between the two sexes.
>>
>> There could be good arguments for and against same sex marriages,
>> civil partnerships or whatever.  Gay orgies have been recorded in
>> almost every recorded civilisation yet I doubt you would promote
>> that.
>
> I would not promote that...  The problem with gay marriage here is
> the "Equal protection" clause of the Constitution...  This is the
> clause that gays use to demand the "right" to "marry"...  However
> when States give in...  They open the door to other minorities and
> some say that a Brother and Sister or a Mom and Son or a Father and
> Daughter or even a man and several animals should be allowed to marry
> becaues according to these people, their love is just as valid as the
> gays and deserves "equal protection"...  It's a slippery slope and
> that is why Conservatives fight for family values and proper marriage
> rather than allow a few gloryhunters and mediawhores to force their
> agenda on the vast majority... Here in my state the Gay agenda was
> foisted upon us and we cannot repeal it...

Thank God for that at least.

>
>
>>> I believe that, whatever the reasons for entering Iraq, the
>>> American-led removal of Saddam Hussein from power will decrease the
>>> sum total of cruelty on Earth.
>>
>> Then why not invade Russia or China?   What gives you or the US
>> governemnt who killed almost 2 million in vietnam the right to decide
>> that?
>
> The world intelligence forces reported that Iraq had WMD...  Sadam
> himself said so every other day...  And his denial of the weapons
> inspectors didn't do anything to help him...  17 UN resolutions
> later...  Someone had to act for the sake of humanity...

So? WHY not invade Russia or China?

>
>>> I believe that the trial lawyers associations and teachers unions,
>>> the greatest donors to the Democratic Party, have done great harm
>>> to American life -- far more than, let us say, oil companies and
>>> pharmaceutical companies, the targets of liberal opprobrium.
>>
>> The same oil companies whos profits have gone threw the roof because
>> of your $4 gallon you mean.
>
> It's a capatalist society here... I don't believe in punishing those
> who make a profit from their business...  Did you ever look up how
> much those same oil companies pay in taxes?  Thought not!

Jesus! Only $4.00 per gallon? Lucky bastards!

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that nuclear power, clean coal, and drilling in a tiny
>>> and remote frozen part of Alaska and offshore -- along with
>>> exploration of other energy alternatives such as wind and solar
>>> power -- are immediately necessary.
>>
>> lol, Again none of these are viable in the long term, nuclear, coal
>> and oil are of a limited resource.
>
> In 1998 Democrats vetoed Drilling on the grounds that it would take
> 10 years to produce any oil...  Well guess what?  It's 10 years later
> and we could have done with that oil...  Now we Drill so that in 10
> more years we won't be talking about what we should have done 10
> years ago!  Obama is against drilling...  God knows why, it makes no
> sense!

Oil is a carbon fuel and bad for the climate (as is Coal). We should be 
going nuclear and investigating the use of hydrogen and water.

>
>
>> In 2006, Brazil cut its oil dependency in just 3 years achieving a
>> state of energy equilibrium, that is using the smae amount of oil as
>> it exports. In these 3 years with a population of 185 million 100% of
>> cars converted to a flex-fuel system of either sugar based ethanol or
>> gasoline. 100% ethanol was 50% of the cost of gasoline in 2006 though
>> the difference today is much greater due to oil price rises.
>>
>> If brazil can achieve a state of energy equilibrium in just 3 years
>> why can't the US or the world in general?
>
> Many here think that we need to try new ways to reduce our dependence
> on foreign oil... I'm for that...  So long as it's part of a greater
> overall plan to drill here and drill now!

All self-harming policies.

>
>>> I believe that school vouchers are more effective than increased
>>> spending on public schools in enabling many poorer Americans to
>>> give their children better educations.
>>
>> We all know why school vouchers where first introduced. Segregation.
>
> No... It was introduced to break the School Unions....
>
>> The voucher system lowers investment i public schools while not
>> giving enough funding for the poor to get into a private school.
>> This is a system that benefits the rich not the poor.
>
> The school voucher scheme was introduced to help the very poor you
> speak of who have no choice what public school their kids go to
> because of the way the public school system works...  Vouchers were
> to allow parents to make a better decision to allow them to refuse to
> send their children to schools that were gang infested drug dens and
> failing and put them in a school that might at least give them a
> chance at succeeding and getting out of the ghetto by becoming more
> educated...
>
>>> I believe that while there are racists in America, America is no
>>> longer a racist society, and that blaming disproportionate rates of
>>> black violence and out-of-wedlock births on white racism is a lie
>>> and the greatest single impediment to African-American progress.
>>
>> A severe imbalence in black white wealth is the real problem. The
>> reality is crime can be linked to poverty not skin colour.
>>
>
> Actually, I agree with you here to a point...  Just don't say this to
> Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson...  They've made millions on the backs
> of the blacks they exploit with their "victim" nonsense....
>
>>> I believe that America, which accepts and assimilates foreigners
>>> better than any other country in the world, is the least racist,
>>> least xenophobic country in the world.
>>
>> All Americans are foreigners.
>>
>
> Now... Be sensible...  Did you ever read any European history?

America IS composed of foreigners, a multi-cultural society made up of 
immigrants from everywhere!

>
>
>>> I believe the leftist takeover of the liberal arts departments in
>>> nearly every American university has been an intellectual and moral
>>> calamity.
>>
>> Again the arts promote change and its only natural that its more
>> attractive to liberals. So why don't you become an art teacher then
>> Ray?
>
> I'm not a Liberal...  I can understand where they come from, I just
> think they are wrong headed...
>
>>> I believe that when it comes to combating the greatest evils on
>>> Earth, such as the genocide in Rwanda, the United Nations has
>>> either been useless or an obstacle.
>>
>> Or the genocide in Palestine the worlds largest concentration camp.
>
> The Other Islamic Nations are happy to keep this kettle boiling as it
> allows them to feel self justified in all it's butchery and mayhem...
> If the other Islamic countries gave a damn, they'd import someting
> like compassion to Gaza and not just terrorists and bombs!  Truth be
> told...  Most Islamists are happy to have Gaza as a festering wound
> they can point to to justify all sorts of terrorism and hatred...

Yes ............ Lets all go and protest in Libya, Afghanistan, 
Palestine......... Civil rights? A joke.

>
>
>> The five permanant members of the secruity council abuse their
>> positions in the UN.
>
> China, Russia and France...  Those bastions of Right Wing Politics?
> Er... Right?
>
> The UN is a joke...  It's corrupt and useless...  It's time it went
> away....

Must have something else to replace it though, first.

>
>> Europe should have its own secruity council
>> without influence from the US, Russia or China. The US invades
>> foreign nations and expects our sons to enforce their foreign
>> policy. Let them enforce it themselves.
>
> Russia and China back Iran...  Do you want them in your Security
> Council?

At least they can be controlled up to a point if they are.

>
>
>>> I believe that, generally speaking, Western Europe provides social
>>> and moral models to be avoided, not emulated.
>>
>> Then you support the US breaking all links with Europe and removing
>> itself from the UN and NATO.
>
> From the UN yes... NATO need to be reformed and refocused to face the
> new threats of this time!  Europe is our natural ally and we will not
> break links with Europe...  America saved Europe in ww2 and saved
> Europe from Communist aggression and what thanks do we get?

America did NOT save us during WW2. They came in very late on, very 
reluctantly and only after being attacked themselves. The British and their 
allies would have eventually won the day, albeit with huge loss of life on 
all sides. So, America was eventually a very helpfull allie in helping to 
end the war far more quickly and thus save lives. She most certainly did NOT 
save Europe per se!

>
>
>>> I believe that America's children were positively affected by
>>> hearing a non-denominational prayer each morning in school, and
>>> adversely affected by the removal of all prayer from school.
>>
>>
>> What about atheists Ray? Surely it should be upto the individual
>> parents not the state to tell children how to or when to pray.
>
> They can leave the class/room or sit silently and feel all superiour
> because they think they know it all...  The vast majority should
> never be ruled by the tiny minoity when it comes to religion...

I believe you will find the vast majority today are indeed, athiests! - 
However, nobody should try to interfere with any countries basic religion 
and it's established rights. That is one of the main problems with Islam, 
they try to corrupt the state religion to their own advantage.

> God Bless America!!!!!

Indeed!


-- 
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh.

(Glac bóg an saol agus glacfaidh an saol bóg thú).

"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not 
> one!
>
>

the united states was founded by liberals.
all the rights we enjoy were created by liberals.
the ability of ungrateful foreigners like you to live here is because of 
liberals.

yet you hate the very people who gave you those rights.

the "tories" in the American revolution were conservatives, the slavocrats 
who tried to destroy the country in the 1860s were consevatives
the "no-nothings" an anti-immigration party were conservatives{they 
especially hated the irish}
you don't know what conservatism is beyonf the fact it feeds your bigotry

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:54:30 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara" 
wrote:

>
>"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not 
>> one!
>>
>>
>
>the united states was founded by liberals.
>all the rights we enjoy were created by liberals.
>the ability of ungrateful foreigners like you to live here is because of 
>liberals.
>
>yet you hate the very people who gave you those rights.
>
>the "tories" in the American revolution were conservatives, the slavocrats 
>who tried to destroy the country in the 1860s were consevatives
>the "no-nothings" an anti-immigration party were conservatives{they 
>especially hated the irish}
>you don't know what conservatism is beyonf the fact it feeds your bigotry 
>

Such tolerance... Such "hope"!  LOL!!! Your the very reason Liberals have a bad
reputation among people of faith and morals!  People who love this country and
see it's best years ahead of it! 

What's it like to have Obama 5 points behind McCain?  In a race you ought to be
winning hand over fist if the liberal media were to believed?

Ray


---------------------------------------------------------------
We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
---------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:09:57 -0400, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"
 wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:54:30 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara" 
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>>news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
>>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
>>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not 
>>> one!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>the united states was founded by liberals.
>>all the rights we enjoy were created by liberals.
>>the ability of ungrateful foreigners like you to live here is because of 
>>liberals.
>>
>>yet you hate the very people who gave you those rights.
>>
>>the "tories" in the American revolution were conservatives, the slavocrats 
>>who tried to destroy the country in the 1860s were consevatives
>>the "no-nothings" an anti-immigration party were conservatives{they 
>>especially hated the irish}
>>you don't know what conservatism is beyonf the fact it feeds your bigotry 
>>
>
>Such tolerance... Such "hope"!  LOL!!! Your the very reason Liberals have a bad
>reputation among people of faith and morals!  People who love this country and
>see it's best years ahead of it! 
>
>What's it like to have Obama 5 points behind McCain?  In a race you ought to be
>winning hand over fist if the liberal media were to believed?
>
>Ray

Ray the Merkin.......lol. What the fuck would you know?
You fuckn' scroungin' tully eyed cunt. Does your wiffie have a job?
Hang yourself and let the honest people have the air.

max.it (the orange cage)

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:05:11 GMT, (max.it) wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:09:57 -0400, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:54:30 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara" 
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>>>news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
>>>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
>>>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not 
>>>> one!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>the united states was founded by liberals.
>>>all the rights we enjoy were created by liberals.
>>>the ability of ungrateful foreigners like you to live here is because of 
>>>liberals.
>>>
>>>yet you hate the very people who gave you those rights.
>>>
>>>the "tories" in the American revolution were conservatives, the slavocrats 
>>>who tried to destroy the country in the 1860s were consevatives
>>>the "no-nothings" an anti-immigration party were conservatives{they 
>>>especially hated the irish}
>>>you don't know what conservatism is beyonf the fact it feeds your bigotry 
>>>
>>
>>Such tolerance... Such "hope"!  LOL!!! Your the very reason Liberals have a bad
>>reputation among people of faith and morals!  People who love this country and
>>see it's best years ahead of it! 
>>
>>What's it like to have Obama 5 points behind McCain?  In a race you ought to be
>>winning hand over fist if the liberal media were to believed?

You're ludicrously and irrationally partisan Ray...and its bleedingly
obvious...

The polls dip, for the first time against Obama but yet its the first
time you mention them...pathetic.

You're in my killfile and I remain deeply disappointed by your
childish attempts at propaganda.

Neolithic

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:05:11 GMT, (max.it) wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:09:57 -0400, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:54:30 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara" 
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>>>news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
>>>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
>>>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not 
>>>> one!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>the united states was founded by liberals.
>>>all the rights we enjoy were created by liberals.
>>>the ability of ungrateful foreigners like you to live here is because of 
>>>liberals.
>>>
>>>yet you hate the very people who gave you those rights.
>>>
>>>the "tories" in the American revolution were conservatives, the slavocrats 
>>>who tried to destroy the country in the 1860s were consevatives
>>>the "no-nothings" an anti-immigration party were conservatives{they 
>>>especially hated the irish}
>>>you don't know what conservatism is beyonf the fact it feeds your bigotry 
>>>
>>
>>Such tolerance... Such "hope"!  LOL!!! Your the very reason Liberals have a bad
>>reputation among people of faith and morals!  People who love this country and
>>see it's best years ahead of it! 
>>
>>What's it like to have Obama 5 points behind McCain?  In a race you ought to be
>>winning hand over fist if the liberal media were to believed?
>>
>>Ray
>
>Ray the Merkin.......lol. What the fuck would you know?
>You fuckn' scroungin' tully eyed cunt. Does your wiffie have a job?
>Hang yourself and let the honest people have the air.
>
>max.it (the orange cage)

<hugs and kisses>

Ray


---------------------------------------------------------------
We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
---------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:29:18 +1200, Neolithic  wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:05:11 GMT, (max.it) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:09:57 -0400, "Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:54:30 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara" 
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Whitewolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>>>>news:8oi3a4l8ntq78l6c83qgj4g4tm9282qt86@4ax.com...
>>>>> Dennis Prager wrote the following and I agree with it...  this is for
>>>>> FreeIreland who asked me to define Liberals...  And here is why I am not 
>>>>> one!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>the united states was founded by liberals.
>>>>all the rights we enjoy were created by liberals.
>>>>the ability of ungrateful foreigners like you to live here is because of 
>>>>liberals.
>>>>
>>>>yet you hate the very people who gave you those rights.
>>>>
>>>>the "tories" in the American revolution were conservatives, the slavocrats 
>>>>who tried to destroy the country in the 1860s were consevatives
>>>>the "no-nothings" an anti-immigration party were conservatives{they 
>>>>especially hated the irish}
>>>>you don't know what conservatism is beyonf the fact it feeds your bigotry 
>>>>
>>>
>>>Such tolerance... Such "hope"!  LOL!!! Your the very reason Liberals have a bad
>>>reputation among people of faith and morals!  People who love this country and
>>>see it's best years ahead of it! 
>>>
>>>What's it like to have Obama 5 points behind McCain?  In a race you ought to be
>>>winning hand over fist if the liberal media were to believed?
>
>You're ludicrously and irrationally partisan Ray...and its bleedingly
>obvious...
>

I never said I wasn't partisan...  The irrationallity I leave to liberals...

>The polls dip, for the first time against Obama but yet its the first
>time you mention them...pathetic.

Where's the Biden Bump?  

Biden supported the war on terror, and the war in Iraq...  He said that Obama
wasn't qualified and too inexperienced to be President...  GREAT choice Obama!!!

Neither of them served a minute in the uniform of the United States miltary and
and they want their finger on the bomb?

So we have the #1 most Liberal in the Senate and the #3 most Liberal in the
Senate running together... 

  >
>You're in my killfile and I remain deeply disappointed by your
>childish attempts at propaganda.
>
>Neolithic

Propaganda implies lies, I'm partisan, the posts I put forth contain facts...
not Propaganda...

Ray


---------------------------------------------------------------
We have our task, and God knows it is a hard one -- the salvage
of a shipwrecked world. - Lothrop Stoddard
---------------------------------------------------------------