Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
	 
The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
electronic border control system, which will collect data on the movements of
people entering their country.

This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two countries,
which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.

Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n

http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd

What say you?

Ray

Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.

Or even now if they fancy doing it on a plane.

"Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
news:vvm1i31rbell52jmqrpt4s54nlftu4ou6v@4ax.com...
> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>
> The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
> electronic border control system, which will collect data on the movements 
> of
> people entering their country.
>
> This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two 
> countries,
> which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>
> Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>
> http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>
> What say you?

I'd say you seem to be unsure of exactly what terminology you are talking 
about. The header claims it is for travel between Ireland and England. Are 
you suggesting that someone getting off the boat in Scotland would be 
excempt? Then you say that Northern Ireland is exempt but that data would be 
collected on people entering 'our country'. This is more prnickity than the 
first point but in parlance here of course Britain (unless it's being used 
as shorthand for the UK and it isn't here) isn't really a country as such. 
In local parlance Britain is made up of several countries; whilst in the 
more usual non-British sense of a country being a nation state then Britian 
stopped being that in 1801.

Allan

On 25 Oct, 22:27, "allan connochie"  wrote:
> "Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in messagenews:vvm1i31rbell52jmqrpt4s54nlftu4ou6v@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>
> > The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
> > electronic border control system, which will collect data on the movements
> > of
> > people entering their country.
>
> > This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two
> > countries,
> > which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>
> > Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>
> >http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>
> > What say you?
>
> I'd say you seem to be unsure of exactly what terminology you are talking
> about. The header claims it is for travel between Ireland and England. Are
> you suggesting that someone getting off the boat in Scotland would be
> excempt? Then you say that Northern Ireland is exempt but that data would be
> collected on people entering 'our country'. This is more prnickity than the
> first point but in parlance here of course Britain (unless it's being used
> as shorthand for the UK and it isn't here) isn't really a country as such.
> In local parlance Britain is made up of several countries; whilst in the
> more usual non-British sense of a country being a nation state then Britian
> stopped being that in 1801.
>
> Allan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually you might be surprised what this means. As far as I am aware
the electronic border would not be on country or a state basis, but
island. Which would mena a person from NI would require a passport to
travel to Scotland but not the republic of ireland. This is bizzare
and I think unlikely to happen at least on the proposed basis..

"freeireland"  wrote in message 
news:1193350299.575532.51770@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On 25 Oct, 22:27, "allan connochie"  wrote:
> "Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in 
> messagenews:vvm1i31rbell52jmqrpt4s54nlftu4ou6v@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>
> > The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
> > electronic border control system, which will collect data on the 
> > movements
> > of
> > people entering their country.
>
> > This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two
> > countries,
> > which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>
> > Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>
> >http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>
> > What say you?
>
> I'd say you seem to be unsure of exactly what terminology you are talking
> about. The header claims it is for travel between Ireland and England. Are
> you suggesting that someone getting off the boat in Scotland would be
> excempt? Then you say that Northern Ireland is exempt but that data would 
> be
> collected on people entering 'our country'. This is more prnickity than 
> the
> first point but in parlance here of course Britain (unless it's being used
> as shorthand for the UK and it isn't here) isn't really a country as such.
> In local parlance Britain is made up of several countries; whilst in the
> more usual non-British sense of a country being a nation state then 
> Britian
> stopped being that in 1801.
>
> Allan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually you might be surprised what this means. As far as I am aware
the electronic border would not be on country or a state basis, but
island. Which would mena a person from NI would require a passport to
travel to Scotland but not the republic of ireland. This is bizzare
and I think unlikely to happen at least on the proposed basis..

Quite agree with you and I wasn't suggesting it wasn't bizarre. Rather I was 
nitpicking the other posters terminology as he was jumping from one term to 
another to another as if they are all interchangeable when they aren't.

Allan

Der Weiße Wolf @iol.ie> wrote:
> 
> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
> 
> The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
> electronic border control system, which will collect data on the movements of
> people entering their country.
> 
> This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two countries,
> which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
> 
> Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
> 
> http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
> 
> What say you?
> 
> Ray


Most former real terrorists have engaged in democratic elections, the
hard liners are marginalized - its a mopping up operation.

Suspicious that they admit to just the border with N.I. being
unenforceable though.

They live on an island fer fuck's sake!

M.

Michael O'Neill wrote:

> Der Weiße Wolf @iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>
>> The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
>> electronic border control system, which will collect data on the
>> movements of people entering their country.
>>
>> This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two
>> countries, which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>>
>> Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>>
>> http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>>
>> What say you?
>>
>> Ray
>
>
> Most former real terrorists have engaged in democratic elections, the
> hard liners are marginalized - its a mopping up operation.

It's nothing to do with republican terrorism. The major threat is from 
elsewhere and UK border controls are being strengthened to cope.

> Suspicious that they admit to just the border with N.I. being
> unenforceable though.

It's not suspicious. It's a fact that has been apparent ever since the 
border was created. The two governents are working together to see if

> They live on an island fer fuck's sake!

Unfortunately it's an island that allows unrestricted access from its 
closest neighbour. Ray wouldn't expect the US to allow unrestricted access 
across its borders. He shouldn't expect the UK to allow it either.

-- 
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
Costing the Earth: The Wind Rush
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/rams/costingtheearth_20070830.ram

Scríobh "Falcon" :
>
>Michael O'Neill wrote:
>
>> Der Weiße Wolf @iol.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>>
>>> The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
>>> electronic border control system, which will collect data on the
>>> movements of people entering their country.
>>>
>>> This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two
>>> countries, which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>>>
>>> Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>>>
>>> http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>>>
>>> What say you?
>>>
>>> Ray
>>
>>
>> Most former real terrorists have engaged in democratic elections, the
>> hard liners are marginalized - its a mopping up operation.
>
>It's nothing to do with republican terrorism. The major threat is from 
>elsewhere and UK border controls are being strengthened to cope.
>
>> Suspicious that they admit to just the border with N.I. being
>> unenforceable though.
>
>It's not suspicious. It's a fact that has been apparent ever since the 
>border was created. The two governents are working together to see if
>
>> They live on an island fer fuck's sake!
>
>Unfortunately it's an island that allows unrestricted access from its 
>closest neighbour. Ray wouldn't expect the US to allow unrestricted access 
>across its borders. He shouldn't expect the UK to allow it either.


I was unaware of the Limerick Troll expressing a view on US-Canadian
border controls, but leave that as may be.

Mostly, the proposal smacks of panicked handwaving compounded by a
good old fashioned dollop of littleenglandism. Close down the island,
put about a Fortress Britain image to calm the voters, but achieve
bugger all. Any Al Q operative worth his salt will have read Erskine
Childers, and la manche is only 34km wide. We should be joining
Schengen, not putting up unnecessary barriers.

-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

Féachadóir wrote:
> Scríobh "Falcon" :
> 
>>Michael O'Neill wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Der Weiße Wolf @iol.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>>>
>>>>The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
>>>>electronic border control system, which will collect data on the
>>>>movements of people entering their country.
>>>>
>>>>This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two
>>>>countries, which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>>>>
>>>>Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>>>>
>>>>http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>>>>
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>>>>
>>>>What say you?
>>>>
>>>>Ray
>>>
>>>
>>>Most former real terrorists have engaged in democratic elections, the
>>>hard liners are marginalized - its a mopping up operation.
>>
>>It's nothing to do with republican terrorism. The major threat is from 
>>elsewhere and UK border controls are being strengthened to cope.
>>
>>
>>>Suspicious that they admit to just the border with N.I. being
>>>unenforceable though.
>>
>>It's not suspicious. It's a fact that has been apparent ever since the 
>>border was created. The two governents are working together to see if
>>
>>
>>>They live on an island fer fuck's sake!
>>
>>Unfortunately it's an island that allows unrestricted access from its 
>>closest neighbour. Ray wouldn't expect the US to allow unrestricted access 
>>across its borders. He shouldn't expect the UK to allow it either.
> 
> 
> 
> I was unaware of the Limerick Troll expressing a view on US-Canadian
> border controls, but leave that as may be.


I think South Park had it covered.

The opportunity for free maple syrup and other important oil-shale 
resources makes annexation an imperative. Canada is one of those sneaky 
countries waiting for the US to drop its guard.

How do you explain the fact they decided to fight on the same side as 
the USA in two world wars to lure the US into a false sense of security?

The Japanese and Germans were up-front about it. Or no more than 40 
minutes not up-front about it in the case of Japan/Hawaii.

I remember that main street survey in Oklahoma, 75 percent of folks 
wanted Canada bombed immediately, admittedly in relation to a Balkan 
problem, however, it is the thought that counts.


> 
> Mostly, the proposal smacks of panicked handwaving compounded by a
> good old fashioned dollop of littleenglandism. Close down the island,
> put about a Fortress Britain image to calm the voters, but achieve
> bugger all. Any Al Q operative worth his salt will have read Erskine
> Childers, and la manche is only 34km wide. We should be joining
> Schengen, not putting up unnecessary barriers.
> 

I hate doing this, how about a pre-test hint on the Erskine Childers 
part. I am not with you.

Falcon wrote:

> 
> 
> Unfortunately it's an island that allows unrestricted access from its 
> closest neighbour. Ray wouldn't expect the US to allow unrestricted access 
> across its borders. He shouldn't expect the UK to allow it either.
> 

The US wouldn't allow Baltimore to change 25 percent of ts demographic 
over six months either.

We have little prod towns becoming Catholic virtually over-night. It is 
making understandable sectarianism difficult.

I had a DUP Mayor asking me the other day whether it would be 
controversial to open a  meeting in English.

When one talks of the rising these days in west Belfast, it is Warsaw, 
not 1916.


Greg

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:56:16 GMT, Gregory  wrote:

>Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>
>Or even now if they fancy doing it on a plane.

Wonder if most people fly or take the train/bus/boat root?

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:59:39 +0100, "Falcon"  wrote:

>
>Michael O'Neill wrote:
>
>> Der Weiße Wolf @iol.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>> Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>>
>>> The prospect stems from plans by the British Government to introduce an
>>> electronic border control system, which will collect data on the
>>> movements of people entering their country.
>>>
>>> This would mean the end of the common travel area between the two
>>> countries, which has existed since the foundation of the Irish Republic.
>>>
>>> Travel between Northern Ireland and the south would not be affected.
>>>
>>> http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=85565&pt=n
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2o5chd
>>>
>>> What say you?
>>>
>>> Ray
>>
>>
>> Most former real terrorists have engaged in democratic elections, the
>> hard liners are marginalized - its a mopping up operation.
>
>It's nothing to do with republican terrorism. The major threat is from 
>elsewhere and UK border controls are being strengthened to cope.
>

Why not instigate religious/racial profiling then?  There are Mosques all over
the place in England/Britain that have nutters telling people to go do
terrorism, but the govt is afraid to do anyting about it incase it's seen as
"insensitive"... 

>> Suspicious that they admit to just the border with N.I. being
>> unenforceable though.
>
>It's not suspicious. It's a fact that has been apparent ever since the 
>border was created. The two governents are working together to see if
>
>> They live on an island fer fuck's sake!
>
>Unfortunately it's an island that allows unrestricted access from its 
>closest neighbour. Ray wouldn't expect the US to allow unrestricted access 
>across its borders. He shouldn't expect the UK to allow it either.

Mexico/Canada/USA have a very different history...  than the Irish/British
have...  

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************

Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:56:16 GMT, Gregory  wrote:
> 
> 
>>Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>>>Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>
>>Or even now if they fancy doing it on a plane.
> 
> 
> Wonder if most people fly or take the train/bus/boat root?
> 
> Ray
> 


Fly I suspect. The boat with a car. Difficult getting a car onto a plane 
without being hit for baggage excess.

On 25 Oct, 18:56, Gregory  wrote:
> Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>
> Or even now if they fancy doing it on a plane.


I think photo ID is needed for the plane at the moment. It doesn't
necessarily have to be a passport.

Regarding the main question of the thread, I think that U.K. Ireland
should negotiate a no-passports zone. We have done fine thus far
without passports.

Also, since a much larger number of E.U. countries already have
negotiated a vast  passport free zone, with the Schengen Agreement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

If this is possible, there should be no problem creating a U.K./Rep of
I zone

Scríobh mothed out :
>On 25 Oct, 18:56, Gregory  wrote:
>> Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>> > Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>
>> Or even now if they fancy doing it on a plane.
>
>
>I think photo ID is needed for the plane at the moment. It doesn't
>necessarily have to be a passport.
>
>Regarding the main question of the thread, I think that U.K. Ireland
>should negotiate a no-passports zone. We have done fine thus far
>without passports.
>
>Also, since a much larger number of E.U. countries already have
>negotiated a vast  passport free zone, with the Schengen Agreement:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
>
>If this is possible, there should be no problem creating a U.K./Rep of
>I zone

There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...

-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

Féachadóir wrote:

[...]
> There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...

I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
suggested. [*] It occurred to me that there may never be a worse time to
suggest 'schengening' the shit out our borders than now. (And no, no-one
really knows where they've come from.)

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7068291.stm
  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2767076.ece
  http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3109873.ece
  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/30/nmigrants430.xml
  http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/23609/Smith-says-sorry-for-migrants-error

(PS. I tried to find a link to the story in the Daily Mirror, but could only
find a story about David Beckham's "respect for Scientology".)

-- 
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
Costing the Earth: The Wind Rush
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/rams/costingtheearth_20070830.ram

Falcon wrote:
> Féachadóir wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...
> 
> 
> I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
> news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
> suggested. [*] It occurred to me that there may never be a worse time to
> suggest 'schengening' the shit out our borders than now. (And no, no-one
> really knows where they've come from.)
> 
> * http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7068291.stm
>   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2767076.ece
>   http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3109873.ece
>   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/30/nmigrants430.xml
>   http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/23609/Smith-says-sorry-for-migrants-error
> 
> (PS. I tried to find a link to the story in the Daily Mirror, but could only
> find a story about David Beckham's "respect for Scientology".)
> 


It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.



Half of new jobs go to migrants
More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign 
workers, government figures reveal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Scríobh "Falcon" :
>
>Féachadóir wrote:
>
>[...]
>> There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...
>
>I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
>news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
>suggested. [*] 

Why would I mind? Half my family are migrants working in the UK.


-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir

On 30 Oct, 23:12, Gregory  wrote:
> Falcon wrote:
> > Féachadóir wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >>There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...
>
> > I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
> > news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
> > suggested. [*] It occurred to me that there may never be a worse time to
> > suggest 'schengening' the shit out our borders than now. (And no, no-one
> > really knows where they've come from.)
>
> > *http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7068291.stm
> >  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2767076.ece
> >  http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3109873.ece
> >  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/30/nmigr...
> >  http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/23609/Smith-says-sorry-for-migran...
>
> > (PS. I tried to find a link to the story in the Daily Mirror, but could only
> > find a story about David Beckham's "respect for Scientology".)
>
> It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.
>
> Half of new jobs go to migrants
> More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign
> workers, government figures reveal.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Take a look at WHICH jobs, and how much they are paid. They are
generally the shittest jobs around. Where the jobs are better, such as
GP, dentist, or perhaps primary school teacher, these will generally
be in professions where we have a big skills shortage.
          The quoted stat does not, therefore, definately indicate
that any of this is detrimental to the U.K's economy or needs.
          Having plenty of immigration is a sign of a lively economy.
When people stop wanting to immigrate to your country, start getting
concerned.

On 31 Oct, 00:38, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> Scríobh "Falcon" :
>
>
>
> >Féachadóir wrote:
>
> >[...]
> >> There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...
>
> >I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
> >news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
> >suggested. [*]
>
> Why would I mind? Half my family are migrants working in the UK.
>
> --
> 'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
> © Féachadóir

Half your family benefits our economy and society. Why would WE mind?
I find the media fuss on this quite silly.

Gregory wrote:

> It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.
  Half of new jobs go to migrants
> More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign 
> workers, government figures reveal.

People piss & moan about immigration, yet we push most of our children 
to college & white collar jobs, resulting in a dearth of lettuce pickers 
& hamburger flippers. Two choices are clearly evident. Either deal with 
the immigrants creatively, and design a long term inclusion plan both 
economically and culturally, or begin to help their home countries 
industrialize so they can create millions of jobs for their own people. 
  Migration will then level out to acceptable amounts of unskilled needed.

I watched a documentary recently which showed a new formula of a peanut 
butter concoction created by Doctors Without Borders, or a similar 
group, which will eradicate infant deaths in the third world. All well 
and good, morally, but the natives are still using farming methods 
thousands of years old, and modern water supply methods and sanitation 
schemes are non existent. As with massive immigration, we treat the 
diseases, but fail to create structures and models of prevention...

On 31 Oct, 00:38, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> Scríobh "Falcon" :
>
>
>
> >Féachadóir wrote:
>
> >[...]
> >> There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...
>
> >I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
> >news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
> >suggested. [*]
>
> Why would I mind? Half my family are migrants working in the UK.
>
> --
> 'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
> © Féachadóir

Incidentally, this whole issue gets foggy quickly, since we may
sometimes forget that the questions of economic migration and security
are not the same.
           Neither Irish bombing or militant Islam bombing were much
affected by passport control, since there were no such controls
between U.K. and Ireland (though plenty of security serveillance), and
the recent muslim extremist tube bombers were born and bred in
England.
           Another big problem is that neither the U.K. or Irish
governments (I believe) are prepared to be honest about how
'invisible' migrant labour is used in reality to boost the economy for
those owning and controlling business enterprises. Anyone and everyone
actually involved in business knows full well that migrant labour is
routinely used, and routinely paid below the minimum wage (with no or
few employment rights or protections, which saves U.K. ltd and Rep of
Ireland ltd a packet. This is, effectively, 3rd world out-sourcing
without even having to set up a call-centre or even paying for the
worker's travel costs! I know directly that non-production of papers
merely places automatically on a different, and amazingly low, pay
scale on building sites throughout Ireland.
            Where skills shortages exist, one 'tough but honest'
approach is to follow the Australian points system, where immigration
remains heavily controlled, but access is permitted to those with
skills.
           That system, however, will not cater for the unskilled
masses continually in demand for our economies now. Because it would
not be regarded as acceptible to roll out a 'guest worker' scheme (as
the Germans did), but with the additional clause stating that payment
below the minimum wage is involved. But no such system could ever be
publicly instituted.

In article ,
   Turlough  wrote:
> Gregory wrote:

> > It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.
>   Half of new jobs go to migrants
> > More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign 
> > workers, government figures reveal.

> People piss & moan about immigration, yet we push most of our children 
> to college & white collar jobs, resulting in a dearth of lettuce pickers 
> & hamburger flippers. Two choices are clearly evident. Either deal with 
> the immigrants creatively, and design a long term inclusion plan both 
> economically and culturally, or begin to help their home countries 
> industrialize so they can create millions of jobs for their own people. 
>   Migration will then level out to acceptable amounts of unskilled >needed.

This is what the EU is doing in Poland for instance. I believe Poland is
already feeling the pinch and suffers from worker shortages in certain
skilled areas. Presumably a balance will establish itself.

From my own experience watching to Poles drill for water in my garden I
must say that I have never seen two fellers working harder. I'm tempted to
say that those two and the average Ulster worker are poles apart!

Jochen

-- 

 ------------------------------------ 
 Limavady and the Roe Valley
 http://www.jochenlueg.freeuk.com

jl wrote:
> In article ,
>    Turlough  wrote:
> 
>>Gregory wrote:
> 
> 
>>>It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.
>>
>>  Half of new jobs go to migrants
>>
>>>More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign 
>>>workers, government figures reveal.
> 
> 
>>People piss & moan about immigration, yet we push most of our children 
>>to college & white collar jobs, resulting in a dearth of lettuce pickers 
>>& hamburger flippers. Two choices are clearly evident. Either deal with 
>>the immigrants creatively, and design a long term inclusion plan both 
>>economically and culturally, or begin to help their home countries 
>>industrialize so they can create millions of jobs for their own people. 
>>  Migration will then level out to acceptable amounts of unskilled >needed.
> 
> 
> This is what the EU is doing in Poland for instance. I believe Poland is
> already feeling the pinch and suffers from worker shortages in certain
> skilled areas. Presumably a balance will establish itself.

There are little towns in eastern Europe with no girls.

Turlough wrote:
> Gregory wrote:
> 
>> It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.
> 
>  Half of new jobs go to migrants
> 
>> More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign 
>> workers, government figures reveal.
> 
> 
> People piss & moan about immigration, yet we push most of our children 
> to college & white collar jobs, resulting in a dearth of lettuce pickers 
> & hamburger flippers. Two choices are clearly evident. Either deal with 
> the immigrants creatively, and design a long term inclusion plan both 
> economically and culturally, or begin to help their home countries 
> industrialize so they can create millions of jobs for their own people. 
>  Migration will then level out to acceptable amounts of unskilled needed.


Seagate is doing just that.

mothed out wrote:
> On 30 Oct, 23:12, Gregory  wrote:
> 
>>Falcon wrote:
>>
>>>Féachadóir wrote:
>>
>>>[...]
>>
>>>>There should be no problem with Ireland and the UK joining Schengen...
>>
>>>I hope you don't mind if I refer you to the political fallout following the
>>>news that 300,000 more migrants are working in the UK than previous figures
>>>suggested. [*] It occurred to me that there may never be a worse time to
>>>suggest 'schengening' the shit out our borders than now. (And no, no-one
>>>really knows where they've come from.)
>>
>>>*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7068291.stm
>>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2767076.ece
>>> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3109873.ece
>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/30/nmigr...
>>> http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/23609/Smith-says-sorry-for-migran...
>>
>>>(PS. I tried to find a link to the story in the Daily Mirror, but could only
>>>find a story about David Beckham's "respect for Scientology".)
>>
>>It was supposed to be 15,000 and then they became suddenly so many more.
>>
>>Half of new jobs go to migrants
>>More than half the new jobs created under Labour have gone to foreign
>>workers, government figures reveal.
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/
> 
> 
> Take a look at WHICH jobs, and how much they are paid. They are
> generally the shittest jobs around. Where the jobs are better, such as
> GP, dentist, or perhaps primary school teacher, these will generally
> be in professions where we have a big skills shortage.
>           The quoted stat does not, therefore, definately indicate
> that any of this is detrimental to the U.K's economy or needs.
>           Having plenty of immigration is a sign of a lively economy.
> When people stop wanting to immigrate to your country, start getting
> concerned.
> 


Mass migration brings in its wake, turmoil and the dilution of stable 
values & social cohesion.

It also affects housing, health, social services. There is nothing worse 
than being a poor Roman in Rome, just because the economy wants to suck 
in everything with a suitcase, is no particularly good reason to do so.

I don't want to be part of a gigantic social experiment. I was not asked 
to vote for it, nobody was, we were lied to about it.

We are governed by lies.

G.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:53:45 GMT, Gregory  wrote:

>Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:56:16 GMT, Gregory  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Der Weiße Wolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Irish people could need passports to travel to Britain by 2009.
>>>
>>>Or even now if they fancy doing it on a plane.
>> 
>> 
>> Wonder if most people fly or take the train/bus/boat root?
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>
>
>Fly I suspect. The boat with a car. Difficult getting a car onto a plane 
>without being hit for baggage excess.

LOL!  With all the nonsense in the airports today, I think I'd rather go by
train/boat...

Ray

-- 
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If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too
high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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