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date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:56:18 -0400,    group: uk.current-events.n-ireland        back       
Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War
has died at the age of 105.

Dan Keating died peacefully near his home in County Kerry. Diarmaid Fleming
looks back on his life.

Meeting the dapper Dan Keating, it could be difficult to reconcile the
immaculately dressed man with his revolutionary past.

Looking probably more like a fit 75-year-old rather than a man of 105 years of
age, unless you knew his background, it could be hard to imagine the gentlemanly
Dan as the last link to the revolutionary violence which gave birth to the
modern Irish nation.

But once the pleasantries of tea and brief discourse over the weather or Kerry's
latest football victory were over, when visiting him at his home in Castlemaine
near where he was born, the subject of politics was never far away.

Eighty six years after the Irish War of Independence, while the mainstream
republican movement had embraced compromise through power-sharing with unionists
in Stormont, Dan Keating's views had changed little from the days he fought
British forces in the hills and towns of Kerry.

In a BBC interview in March, he said that a united Ireland remained his
political goal: "You'll have no peace in Ireland until the people of the 32
counties of Ireland elect a government without interference from England."

Dan Keating was born in 1902 on a small farm near in Castlemaine in County
Kerry, the eldest of seven.

His uncles were militants involved in attacks on English landlords' agents
during land disputes in the 19th century.

But he said that in his early youth, Kerry was peaceful until the 1916 Easter
Rising.

Relations with the large British military garrison in Tralee were good, where a
soldier from Lancashire who enjoyed music was welcomed to sing in the local
pubs.

When one of Dan's own cousins who was in the British Army overstayed his home
leave, two uncles were arrested after beating up a visiting military policeman
inquiring as to his whereabouts.

But the injured soldier refused to give evidence against the two Kerrymen,
saving them from certain jail and earning the respect of locals.

"He didn't want any trouble," said Dan.

The summary execution of the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising rapidly changed
the atmosphere to one of hatred and war, he said.

Working in a bar in Tralee, he joined the IRA youth wing, acting as an
intelligence agent, and helping move weapons.

He said it was a fervour of revolt and youthful excitement rather than political
motivation which got him involved.

"We were mad for it. It was the thing to do at the time. There was a wave and
you got caught up with it. All the people you knew were involved," he said.

He graduated to the IRA on turning 18, and took part in ambushes in which men
from both his own and the British side died.

He set up one ambush where several policemen were killed near his home, but
would not be drawn on whether he himself had killed, saying he did not know in
the fog of war.

	You had to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth
"When you are involved in an ambush with a crowd of men, you wouldn't know who
killed who.

"But the prospect never troubled me. You were fighting for a just cause and once
you have that in the forefront, it never troubled you," he added.

He said it was a war to the death for both sides.

"You had to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth, that was your job to do."

A truce with the British ended the War of Independence in 1921, but the treaty
led to the partition of Ireland.

The IRA fought on, with Dan on the losing side in the bitter Civil War against
the Free State Army which followed immediately.

He was to serve the first of several stretches in prison, interned in the
Curragh Camp.

While many IRA men left Ireland for good, unable to gain work in a land run by
their civil war enemies, Dan stayed and got steady work as a barman.

He remained active in the IRA in Kerry, and was part of an IRA squad which
attempted to assassinate the Irish fascist leader Eoin O'Duffy on his way to a
rally in Tralee in 1933.

A disastrous plan by the IRA to cause sabotage in England during World War II -
the S-Plan - brought Dan to England where he led the IRA in London, taking part
in bombings of commercial premises and power-stations by night, while he worked
as a barman in The Strand in London by day.

Prison

When detectives came knocking on his door, he told him the Dan Keating they were
looking for had already left on a passing bus, and made it back to Ireland after
giving them the slip.

But more jail awaited on his return, with a second stretch in the Curragh
internment camp.

He left the IRA on his release, he said after a clear-out of the "old guard",
and settled down with a new wife who was a regular visitor to him in prison -
and who with no hint of irony he said was even more militant than himself.

	A non-drinker until his 50s, he took his first drink after a row with
the teetotal Pioneer Total Abstinence Association

He continued to fundraise and help republican causes, even storing weapons in
his house despite an unsuspecting near neighbour being a senior policeman.

Working in the Comet Bar in Dublin's northside, he was an active trade unionist
in the bar worker's union.

A non-drinker until his 50s, he took his first drink after a row with the
teetotal Pioneer Total Abstinence Association whose pin he had sported as a
lifelong member.

At a consultation meeting called by the government to relax pub opening hours,
Dan was shocked when the teetotal organisation backed plans to lengthen pub
opening hours in opposition to the barworkers' union.

His response was typically militant.

"I took the pin off and fired it at them. I walked out of the meeting with the
union leader Walter Byrne, and both of us had a glass of sherry," he said.

He retired back to Castlemaine after his wife died in the the late 1970s, but
continued to visit Dublin for big gaelic football and hurling matches, attending
over 150 All-Ireland finals in his lifetime, most likely a record.

Walking several miles a day until just weeks before his death, he attributed his
long life to moderation, never smoking, a good diet and lack of stress.

And his secret for living to 105?

"I always kept going and never worried about things. People should live their
life and not worry about things, and if they have any favourite pastimes, they
should keep at them," he said.

Independent and fit, he travelled on his own by bus on a two-hour journey to
Cork to the premiere of Ken Loach's film, the Wind that Shakes the Barley in
2006, meeting the British director afterwards to voice his approval in declaring
the film as an accurate portrayal of the fighting he was involved in himself.

While he only drank an occasional Benedictine brandy, and detested swearing, his
recommendation of moderation did not apply to politics.

He remained an unreconstructed militant, left Sinn Fein in 1986 when it voted to
end its ban on taking seats in the Irish parliament, and became a patron of the
breakaway Republican Sinn Fein.

Irish President

He said he refused to meet Irish President Mary McAleese to receive a cheque on
his 100th birthday because of her declaration of a desire to invite the Queen to
Ireland during her term of office, and attacked the Sinn Fein leadership for
entering into power-sharing in Stormont this year.

Shortly before his death, he said he did not mind that his views were in the
minority.

"We are passing through a phase, the youth of Ireland - all they want is a pay
packet and a good time," he said.

"I don't mind because I meet a lot of people who think the very same as me and
we are very happy to be a minority.

"We feel that we have a duty to hand it down to future generations," he said.

His passing marks the end of the last direct link to the turbulent and violent
birth of the modern Irish nation, as he was the last IRA veteran of the War of
Independence.

The muted response to his death of Irish politicians who would not have shared
his politics would probably be, for Dan Keating, a fitting epitaph.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/northern_ireland/7026951.stm
date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:56:18 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Oct 4, 10:56 am, "WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>" 
wrote:
> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War
> has died at the age of 105.
>
> Dan Keating died peacefully near his home in County Kerry. Diarmaid Fleming
> looks back on his life.
>
> Meeting the dapper Dan Keating, it could be difficult to reconcile the
> immaculately dressed man with his revolutionary past.
>
> Looking probably more like a fit 75-year-old rather than a man of 105 years of
> age, unless you knew his background, it could be hard to imagine the gentlemanly
> Dan as the last link to the revolutionary violence which gave birth to the
> modern Irish nation.
>
> But once the pleasantries of tea and brief discourse over the weather or Kerry's
> latest football victory were over, when visiting him at his home in Castlemaine
> near where he was born, the subject of politics was never far away.
>
> Eighty six years after the Irish War of Independence, while the mainstream
> republican movement had embraced compromise through power-sharing with unionists
> in Stormont, Dan Keating's views had changed little from the days he fought
> British forces in the hills and towns of Kerry.
>
> In a BBC interview in March, he said that a united Ireland remained his
> political goal: "You'll have no peace in Ireland until the people of the 32
> counties of Ireland elect a government without interference from England."
>
> Dan Keating was born in 1902 on a small farm near in Castlemaine in County
> Kerry, the eldest of seven.
>
> His uncles were militants involved in attacks on English landlords' agents
> during land disputes in the 19th century.
>
> But he said that in his early youth, Kerry was peaceful until the 1916 Easter
> Rising.
>
> Relations with the large British military garrison in Tralee were good, where a
> soldier from Lancashire who enjoyed music was welcomed to sing in the local
> pubs.
>
> When one of Dan's own cousins who was in the British Army overstayed his home
> leave, two uncles were arrested after beating up a visiting military policeman
> inquiring as to his whereabouts.
>
> But the injured soldier refused to give evidence against the two Kerrymen,
> saving them from certain jail and earning the respect of locals.
>
> "He didn't want any trouble," said Dan.
>
> The summary execution of the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising rapidly changed
> the atmosphere to one of hatred and war, he said.
>
> Working in a bar in Tralee, he joined the IRA youth wing, acting as an
> intelligence agent, and helping move weapons.
>
> He said it was a fervour of revolt and youthful excitement rather than political
> motivation which got him involved.
>
> "We were mad for it. It was the thing to do at the time. There was a wave and
> you got caught up with it. All the people you knew were involved," he said.
>
> He graduated to the IRA on turning 18, and took part in ambushes in which men
> from both his own and the British side died.
>
> He set up one ambush where several policemen were killed near his home, but
> would not be drawn on whether he himself had killed, saying he did not know in
> the fog of war.
>
>         You had to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth
> "When you are involved in an ambush with a crowd of men, you wouldn't know who
> killed who.
>
> "But the prospect never troubled me. You were fighting for a just cause and once
> you have that in the forefront, it never troubled you," he added.
>
> He said it was a war to the death for both sides.
>
> "You had to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth, that was your job to do."
>
> A truce with the British ended the War of Independence in 1921, but the treaty
> led to the partition of Ireland.
>
> The IRA fought on, with Dan on the losing side in the bitter Civil War against
> the Free State Army which followed immediately.
>
> He was to serve the first of several stretches in prison, interned in the
> Curragh Camp.
>
> While many IRA men left Ireland for good, unable to gain work in a land run by
> their civil war enemies, Dan stayed and got steady work as a barman.
>
> He remained active in the IRA in Kerry, and was part of an IRA squad which
> attempted to assassinate the Irish fascist leader Eoin O'Duffy on his way to a
> rally in Tralee in 1933.
>
> A disastrous plan by the IRA to cause sabotage in England during World War II -
> the S-Plan - brought Dan to England where he led the IRA in London, taking part
> in bombings of commercial premises and power-stations by night, while he worked
> as a barman in The Strand in London by day.
>
> Prison
>
> When detectives came knocking on his door, he told him the Dan Keating they were
> looking for had already left on a passing bus, and made it back to Ireland after
> giving them the slip.
>
> But more jail awaited on his return, with a second stretch in the Curragh
> internment camp.
>
> He left the IRA on his release, he said after a clear-out of the "old guard",
> and settled down with a new wife who was a regular visitor to him in prison -
> and who with no hint of irony he said was even more militant than himself.
>
>         A non-drinker until his 50s, he took his first drink after a row with
> the teetotal Pioneer Total Abstinence Association
>
> He continued to fundraise and help republican causes, even storing weapons in
> his house despite an unsuspecting near neighbour being a senior policeman.
>
> Working in the Comet Bar in Dublin's northside, he was an active trade unionist
> in the bar worker's union.
>
> A non-drinker until his 50s, he took his first drink after a row with the
> teetotal Pioneer Total Abstinence Association whose pin he had sported as a
> lifelong member.
>
> At a consultation meeting called by the government to relax pub opening hours,
> Dan was shocked when the teetotal organisation backed plans to lengthen pub
> opening hours in opposition to the barworkers' union.
>
> His response was typically militant.
>
> "I took the pin off and fired it at them. I walked out of the meeting with the
> union leader Walter Byrne, and both of us had a glass of sherry," he said.
>
> He retired back to Castlemaine after his wife died in the the late 1970s, but
> continued to visit Dublin for big gaelic football and hurling matches, attending
> over 150 All-Ireland finals in his lifetime, most likely a record.
>
> Walking several miles a day until just weeks before his death, he attributed his
> long life to moderation, never smoking, a good diet and lack of stress.
>
> And his secret for living to 105?
>
> "I always kept going and never worried about things. People should live their
> life and not worry about things, and if they have any favourite pastimes, they
> should keep at them," he said.
>
> Independent and fit, he travelled on his own by bus on a two-hour journey to
> Cork to the premiere of Ken Loach's film, the Wind that Shakes the Barley in
> 2006, meeting the British director afterwards to voice his approval in declaring
> the film as an accurate portrayal of the fighting he was involved in himself.
>
> While he only drank an occasional Benedictine brandy, and detested swearing, his
> recommendation of moderation did not apply to politics.
>
> He remained an unreconstructed militant, left Sinn Fein in 1986 when it voted to
> end its ban on taking seats in the Irish parliament, and became a patron of the
> breakaway Republican Sinn Fein.
>
> Irish President
>
> He said he refused to meet Irish President Mary McAleese to receive a cheque on
> his 100th birthday because of her declaration of a desire to invite the Queen to
> Ireland during her term of office, and attacked the Sinn Fein leadership for
> entering into power-sharing in Stormont this year.
>
> Shortly before his death, he said he did not mind that his views were in the
> minority.
>
> "We are passing through a phase, the youth of Ireland - all they want is a pay
> packet and a good time," he said.
>
> "I don't mind because I meet a lot of people who think the very same as me and
> we are very happy to be a minority.
>
> "We feel that we have a duty to hand it down to future generations," he said.
>
> His passing marks the end of the last direct link to the turbulent and violent
> birth of the modern Irish nation, as he was the last IRA veteran of the War of
> Independence.
>
> The muted response to his death of Irish politicians who would not have shared
> his politics would probably be, for Dan Keating, a fitting epitaph.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/northern_ireland/7026951.stm

Yes, mo dhuine uasal, I knew nothing about Dan Keating but Charlie
Haughy got a military funeral.

Donal
date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 05:09:17 -0700   author:   soga1893

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Scríobh soga1893 :
>
>Yes, mo dhuine uasal, I knew nothing about Dan Keating but Charlie
>Haughy got a military funeral.

He got a State funeral. It wasn't military.

-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir
date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:46:49 +0100   author:   Féachadóir F?ach@d.?ir

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Féachadóir wrote:
> Scríobh soga1893 :
>>
>> Yes, mo dhuine uasal, I knew nothing about Dan Keating but Charlie
>> Haughy got a military funeral.
>
> He got a State funeral. It wasn't military.

This bloke seems to have a fairly consistent record in any case. He opposed
every peace agreement in the history of the state and before. He and his
family seem to have covered all the bases - I think they were members of
every IRA and Sinn Fein there ever was.

Still prefer him to Haughey.

-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:51:43 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War
> has died at the age of 105.

He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate

Theone

>
> Dan Keating died peacefully near his home in County Kerry. Diarmaid Fleming
> looks back on his life.
>
> Meeting the dapper Dan Keating, it could be difficult to reconcile the
> immaculately dressed man with his revolutionary past.
>
> Looking probably more like a fit 75-year-old rather than a man of 105 years of
> age, unless you knew his background, it could be hard to imagine the gentlemanly
> Dan as the last link to the revolutionary violence which gave birth to the
> modern Irish nation.
>
> But once the pleasantries of tea and brief discourse over the weather or Kerry's
> latest football victory were over, when visiting him at his home in Castlemaine
> near where he was born, the subject of politics was never far away.
>
> Eighty six years after the Irish War of Independence, while the mainstream
> republican movement had embraced compromise through power-sharing with unionists
> in Stormont, Dan Keating's views had changed little from the days he fought
> British forces in the hills and towns of Kerry.
>
> In a BBC interview in March, he said that a united Ireland remained his
> political goal: "You'll have no peace in Ireland until the people of the 32
> counties of Ireland elect a government without interference from England."
>
> Dan Keating was born in 1902 on a small farm near in Castlemaine in County
> K
date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:53:27 -0700   author:   unknown

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
fizz@unison.ie wrote:
> WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
>
> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate

You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for 105
years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with him.

...
-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 18:12:21 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Scríobh "Westprog" :
>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>> WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
>>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
>>
>> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>
>You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for 105
>years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with him.

Anyone else thinking of that scene in Life of Brian?

"Whatever happened to the Popular Front?"
"He's over there."
"Splitter!"

-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir
date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:29:26 +0100   author:   Féachadóir F?ach@d.?ir

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Oct 5, 6:12 pm, "Westprog"  wrote:
> f...@unison.ie wrote:
> > WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> >> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
> >> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
>
> > He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>
> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for 105
> years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with him.
>
> ...
> --
>
> J/
>
> SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey

The pension he refused was the small Old IRA Pension doled out by the
Irish Government - he had, and accepted, his full Irish Government Old
Age Pension.

A good man, and a great patriot in the old days, but Ireland had to
move on, and it moved on so much that he couldn't keep up with it.

But for men like him we would still be a neglected British Province.
Like N.I.

And because of men like him, the Irish Government has more influence
today with the British Government than the N.I. EXecutive has - that's
the beauty of Independence, of being the Boss of your own house.

His funeral was reported and filmed on RTE Television News tonight
across Ireland. His viewpoint, though a tiny minority one in today's
Republic, was noted, his life honoured. As it should be.

Ar Deis De go raibh a h-Anam.

Michael McGrath.
date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 11:51:41 -0700   author:   DruidEire

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 18:12:21 +0100, "Westprog" 
wrote:

>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>> WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
>>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
>>
>> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>
>You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for 105
>years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with him.

I and many others wouldn't think that.

Nik

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date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:19:16 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:29:26 +0100, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:

>Scríobh "Westprog" :
>>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>>> WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>>>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
>>>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
>>>
>>> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>>
>>You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for 105
>>years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with him.
>
>Anyone else thinking of that scene in Life of Brian?
>
>"Whatever happened to the Popular Front?"
>"He's over there."
>"Splitter!"

Trivialising suffering...

Nik

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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:19:49 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
DruidEire wrote:
...
>>>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
>>>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.

>>> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate

>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for
>> 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with
>> him.

> The pension he refused was the small Old IRA Pension doled out by the
> Irish Government - he had, and accepted, his full Irish Government Old
> Age Pension.

I'm sure that in the intricacies of republican legitimacy that makes total
sense.

> A good man, and a great patriot in the old days, but Ireland had to
> move on, and it moved on so much that he couldn't keep up with it.

> But for men like him we would still be a neglected British Province.
> Like N.I.

> And because of men like him, the Irish Government has more influence
> today with the British Government than the N.I. EXecutive has - that's
> the beauty of Independence, of being the Boss of your own house.

That's always a matter of opinion, but when it came down to it, I doubt if
there's any bit of Irish independence that couldn't have been achieved
entirely constitutionally. (That's not to say all the blame is on
republicans).

> His funeral was reported and filmed on RTE Television News tonight
> across Ireland. His viewpoint, though a tiny minority one in today's
> Republic, was noted, his life honoured. As it should be.

I can't see why. The man was waging war on the Irish state for most of his
life. The British might respect Adolf Galland for his fighting prowess, but
they don't think of him as a great British patriot.

-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:39:58 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:39:58 +0100, "Westprog" 
wrote:

>DruidEire wrote:
>...
>>>>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
>>>>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
>
>>>> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>
>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for
>>> 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with
>>> him.
>
>> The pension he refused was the small Old IRA Pension doled out by the
>> Irish Government - he had, and accepted, his full Irish Government Old
>> Age Pension.
>
>I'm sure that in the intricacies of republican legitimacy that makes total
>sense.
>
>> A good man, and a great patriot in the old days, but Ireland had to
>> move on, and it moved on so much that he couldn't keep up with it.
>
>> But for men like him we would still be a neglected British Province.
>> Like N.I.
>
>> And because of men like him, the Irish Government has more influence
>> today with the British Government than the N.I. EXecutive has - that's
>> the beauty of Independence, of being the Boss of your own house.
>
>That's always a matter of opinion, but when it came down to it, I doubt if
>there's any bit of Irish independence that couldn't have been achieved
>entirely constitutionally.

However, O'Connell tried constitutional change - it didn't work, the
1918 Westminster General Election result, in a democratic sense, ought
to have guaranteed it but it didn't happen. 

Ireland wasn't invaded 'constitutionally'. To return Irish sovereignty
to the Irish people required force. Fortunately those days are over
now.

> (That's not to say all the blame is on republicans).

Makes a change from you Westie.

>> His funeral was reported and filmed on RTE Television News tonight
>> across Ireland. His viewpoint, though a tiny minority one in today's
>> Republic, was noted, his life honoured. As it should be.
>
>I can't see why.

Blinded by your own bias.

> The man was waging war on the Irish state for most of his
>life.

<cough>Green book</cough>

Nik

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date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:02:51 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:02:51 +1300, Nik  wrote:

>However, O'Connell tried constitutional change - it didn't work,

Then why is he usually referred to as the liberator?

He can hardly be condemned as a failure because, after all,  he
never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
of republicans alive today who failed to deliver your desires.
Whatever methods they chose...

David H
 
-- 
abend
date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:26:15 GMT   author:   (David H)

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Nik wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:29:26 퍝, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
>
> >Scríobh "Westprog" :
> >>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
> >>> WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
> >>>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and
> >>>> Civil War has died at the age of 105.
> >>>
> >>> He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
> >>
> >>You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders for 105
> >>years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was with him.
>
Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
Ergo: A good man

Theone

>
> >Anyone else thinking of that scene in Life of Brian?
> >
> >"Whatever happened to the Popular Front?"
> >"He's over there."
> >"Splitter!"
>
> Trivialising suffering...
>
> Nik
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 16:14:01 -0700   author:   unknown

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
fizz@unison.ie wrote:
...
>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>> with him.

> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
> Ergo: A good man


In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.


-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 +0100, "Westprog"  wrote:

>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>...
>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>> with him.
>
>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
>> Ergo: A good man
>
>
>In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
>republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
>smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.

It's sickening reading you and others running down the man when none of ye are
even fit to shine his shoes!   For shame!  

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************
date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:57:17 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:53:27 -0700, fizz@unison.ie wrote:

>
>WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War
>> has died at the age of 105.
>
>He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>
>Theone
>

There's a little more about this great man here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Keating

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************
date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:57:18 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 +0100, "Westprog"  wrote:

>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>...
>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>> with him.
>
>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
>> Ergo: A good man
>
>
>In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
>republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
>smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.

It's sickening reading you and others running down the man when none of ye are
even fit to shine his shoes!   For shame!  

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************
date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 14:59:52 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:53:27 -0700, fizz@unison.ie wrote:

>
>WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie> wrote:
>> The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War
>> has died at the age of 105.
>
>He refused a state pension claiming the government was illegitimate
>
>Theone
>

There's a little more about this great man here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Keating

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************
date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:00:01 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
"WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
news:3hvkg3pi12911hsf2osj5mkpion9l0v03m@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 +0100, "Westprog"  
> wrote:
>
>>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>>...
>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>>> with him.
>>
>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
>>> Ergo: A good man
>>
>>
>>In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind 
>>militant
>>republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
>>smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>
> It's sickening reading you and others running down the man when none of ye 
> are
> even fit to shine his shoes!   For shame!
>
> Ray
>

I know people who knew the man and I'll tell you this, if he had been aware 
of the shite you post here, he would undoubtedly have approved of someone 
giving you a good hammering..............nasty wee pretend Republican that 
ye are!
date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:11:41 +0100   author:   eugene lid

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Westprog wrote:
> fizz@unison.ie wrote:
> ...
> >>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
> >>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
> >>>> with him.
>
> > Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
> > Ergo: A good man
>
>
> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
> republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
> smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>

Dream on!

Theone
>
> --
>
>
>
> J/
>
> SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 16:06:59 -0700   author:   unknown

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Oct 8, 5:57 am, "WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>" 
wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 퍝, "Westprog"  wrote:
> >f...@unison.ie wrote:
> >...
> >>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
> >>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
> >>>>> with him.
>
> >> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
> >> Ergo: A good man
>
> >In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
> >republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
> >smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>
> It's sickening reading you and others running down the man when none of ye are
> even fit to shine his shoes!   For shame!  

 Is this the person who, according to my newspaper was
bombing London in 1939/1940?  One would think that Londoners
would have enough problems dodging German bombs without
those of some Irish piece of filth at the same time.  Funny thing
about the IRA, during WW2 they were nazis, the moment the
war was over, they reverted abck to their bolshie ways.

 "I couldnt care less about a united Ireland, I want a United
 Socialist Ireland.".
 Gerry Adams, the day after his goons had jsut finished killing
 man, his wife and young daughter. in Belfast 1988.

 Their name was Hanna.  These IRA scum should have been
 rounded up and hanged.




>
> Ray
>
> --
> ***************************************************************************­*************
> When anyone asks me about the Irish character,

 What Irish character?  Brawling, breeding and boozing?


 I say look at the trees.
> Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
> ***************************************************************************­*************
> Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website:http://www.eirefirst.com
> ***************************************************************************­*************
date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 23:36:58 -0700   author:   unknown

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
fizz@unison.ie wrote:

...
>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>>> with him.

>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his
>>> principles. Ergo: A good man

>> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind
>> militant republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years.
>> A smaller and smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.

> Dream on!

Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an end,
does anyone know what this man actually did for 105 years? Apart from stand
by his principles?


-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Scríobh "Westprog" :
>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>
>...
>>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>>>> with him.
>
>>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his
>>>> principles. Ergo: A good man
>
>>> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind
>>> militant republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years.
>>> A smaller and smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>
>> Dream on!
>
>Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an end,
>does anyone know what this man actually did for 105 years? Apart from stand
>by his principles?

Odd thought. I wonder how many of the Tans are still alive?
Most of the various war veterans from that era are gone at this stage.
According to Wiki, only 33 WWI survivors are still with us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_veterans_of_World_War_I

-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir
date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 11:59:34 +0100   author:   Féachadóir F?ach@d.?ir

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Féachadóir wrote:
...
>>>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his
>>>>>>>> leaders for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the
>>>>>>>> problem was with him.

>>>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his
>>>>> principles. Ergo: A good man

>>>> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind
>>>> militant republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years.
>>>> A smaller and smaller number of people have been clinging onto
>>>> them.

>>> Dream on!

>> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at
>> an end, does anyone know what this man actually did for 105 years?
>> Apart from stand by his principles?

> Odd thought. I wonder how many of the Tans are still alive?
> Most of the various war veterans from that era are gone at this stage.
> According to Wiki, only 33 WWI survivors are still with us.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_veterans_of_World_War_I

AFAIAA, there are no German survivors.


-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:58:18 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Scríobh "Westprog" :
>Féachadóir wrote:
>...
>>>>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his
>>>>>>>>> leaders for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the
>>>>>>>>> problem was with him.
>
>>>>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his
>>>>>> principles. Ergo: A good man
>
>>>>> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind
>>>>> militant republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years.
>>>>> A smaller and smaller number of people have been clinging onto
>>>>> them.
>
>>>> Dream on!
>
>>> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at
>>> an end, does anyone know what this man actually did for 105 years?
>>> Apart from stand by his principles?
>
>> Odd thought. I wonder how many of the Tans are still alive?
>> Most of the various war veterans from that era are gone at this stage.
>> According to Wiki, only 33 WWI survivors are still with us.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_veterans_of_World_War_I
>
>AFAIAA, there are no German survivors.

Wiki lists two.

-- 
'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
© Féachadóir
date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:10:02 +0100   author:   Féachadóir F?ach@d.?ir

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Féachadóir wrote:
...
>>> Odd thought. I wonder how many of the Tans are still alive?
>>> Most of the various war veterans from that era are gone at this
>>> stage. According to Wiki, only 33 WWI survivors are still with us.

>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_veterans_of_World_War_I

>> AFAIAA, there are no German survivors.

> Wiki lists two.

It may well be right - though it's the kind of entry that can be easily
outdated.


-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:55:42 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 23:36:58 -0700, "Boedicia@isp.com"
 wrote:

> Is this the person who, according to my newspaper was
>bombing London in 1939/1940?  One would think that Londoners
>would have enough problems dodging German bombs without
>those of some Irish piece of filth at the same time.  Funny thing
>about the IRA, during WW2 they were nazis, the moment the
>war was over, they reverted abck to their bolshie ways.

To be fair to them, they were bombing Britain during the
era of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Uncle Joe may have
discouraged them from bombing Britain after Barbarossa.

Republicans seem to have had terrible trouble picking a
dignified path through WW2.

David H

-- 
abend
date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:44:35 GMT   author:   (David H)

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Oct 5, 8:46 am, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> Scríobh soga1893 :
>
>
>
> >Yes, mo dhuine uasal, I knew nothing about Dan Keating but Charlie
> >Haughy got a military funeral.
>
> He got a State funeral. It wasn't military.
>
> --
> 'Donegal:  Up Here It's Different'
> © Féachadóir

Mr Haughey was afforded full State honours for his funeral, with an
escort by a marching military battalion and band and with a guard of
honour by members of the Defence Forces, including members of the
Naval Service. After the graveside prayers and the graveside oration,
military honours were rendered.
date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:49:25 -0700   author:   soga1893

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
wrote:

>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>
>...
>>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>>>> with him.
>
>>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his
>>>> principles. Ergo: A good man
>
>>> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind
>>> militant republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years.
>>> A smaller and smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>
>> Dream on!
>
>Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an end,

Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
the Bombay Street residents in 1969.

>does anyone know what this man actually did for 105 years? Apart from stand
>by his principles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Keating

Nik

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date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:02:26 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Nik wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
> wrote:
[...]
>> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
>> end,
>
> Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
> the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
[...]

He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.

-- 
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:46:19 +0100   author:   Falcon

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
"Falcon"  wrote in message
news:fei3lr$772$1@aioe.org...
>
> Nik wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
> > wrote:
> [...]
> >> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
> >> end,
> >
> > Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
> > the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
> [...]
>
> He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.

I suggest Nik would do well to research how Martin Luther King reacted when
the KKK blew up a church and killed a number of small girls. (Hint - he
didn't ask Canada to ship him guns).

-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:27:07 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Westprog wrote:

> "Falcon"  wrote in message
> news:fei3lr$772$1@aioe.org...
>>
>> Nik wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
>>> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
>>>> end,
>>>
>>> Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
>>> the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
>> [...]
>>
>> He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.
>
> I suggest Nik would do well to research how Martin Luther King reacted
> when the KKK blew up a church and killed a number of small girls. (Hint -
> he didn't ask Canada to ship him guns).

The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was inspired by the 
African-American Civil Rights Movement. However there is little evidence to 
suggest that the AACCRM regularly employed gunmen to fire on police officers 
or soldiers during riots, or considered mounting a 30-year bombing campaign 
to achieve their aims. The IRA terror campaign was never about civil rights 
and it was never about Bombay Street.

-- 
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:06:43 +0100   author:   Falcon

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
"Falcon"  wrote in message
news:fei8b3$lq8$1@aioe.org..
...
> The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was inspired by the
> African-American Civil Rights Movement. However there is little evidence
to
> suggest that the AACCRM regularly employed gunmen to fire on police
officers
> or soldiers during riots, or considered mounting a 30-year bombing
campaign
> to achieve their aims. The IRA terror campaign was never about civil
rights
> and it was never about Bombay Street.

And they never said it was. Their sole aim was to end partition. That's what
they continually said throughout. Until they stopped saying it, obviously.

-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:07:07 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Oct 8, 2:58 am, "Westprog"  wrote:
> f...@unison.ie wrote:
>
> ...
>
> >>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
> >>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
> >>>> with him.
> > Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
> > Ergo: A good man
>
> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles.

Some men act on principle and a few don't; a man's principles are open
to scrutiny, whether you agree with them or not. Men who do not act on
principle are excused such scrutiny. A man who acts on principle is by
definition a good man worthy of respect.

 The bad ideas behind militant
> republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
> smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.

I come from the other side of the track and might feel alienated from
militant republicans - but all those I have met were honourable men
and women.

Donal

PS. About twenty years ago (why! that's only yesterday) a friend of
mine doing postgrad in history and Spanish, asked me as a favour to
join a welcoming party, composed of earnestly excited people with
placards, for a militant republican from somewhere in South America. I
thought the whole idea daft:

"And who am I? - The token adult?"

He pleaded with me, so I stood in. After the photo call we all trooped
off to the Cafe Lorca somewhere in Cork where I found myself sitting
beside the guest. We were about the same age and about five or six
years older than the general hysteria around us. He missed his
children and so did I and it was an easy topic with the 'children'
who presented us with very good wine. I liked the man a lot and I
think it was an emotion shared.

A few weeks or so later I met a militant republican who was enjoying
(tar eis meisce) the $135 he got from the Boston Globe for a
photograph taken in Cafe Lorca of the now elected President talking
with "an Irish Revolutionary Leader". I have to say that the
photgrapher had a great sense of humour...

Ray may have a good laff at that too.


>
> --
>
> J/
>
> SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 04:45:29 -0700   author:   soga1893

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Oct 8, 8:57 am, "WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>" 
wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 +0100, "Westprog"  wrote:
> >f...@unison.ie wrote:
> >...
> >>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
> >>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
> >>>>> with him.
>
> >> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
> >> Ergo: A good man
>
> >In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
> >republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
> >smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>
> It's sickening reading you and others running down the man when none of ye are
> even fit to shine his shoes!   For shame!
>
> Ray
>
> --
> ****************************************************************************************
> When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
> Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien


Have a look at www.currach.cc Ray.


> ****************************************************************************************
> Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website:http://www.eirefirst.com
> ****************************************************************************************
date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:02:45 -0700   author:   soga1893

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:46:19 +0100, "Falcon"
 wrote:

>
>Nik wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
>> wrote:
>[...]
>>> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
>>> end,
>>
>> Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
>> the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
>[...]
>
>He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.

Irrelevant.

Nik

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date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:32:09 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Nik wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:46:19 +0100, "Falcon"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> Nik wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
>>> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
>>>> end,
>>>
>>> Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
>>> the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
>> [...]
>>
>> He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.
>
> Irrelevant.

No fucking kidding!

-- 
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:29:26 +0100   author:   Falcon

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:26:15 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:02:51 +1300, Nik  wrote:
>
>>However, O'Connell tried constitutional change - it didn't work,
>
>Then why is he usually referred to as the liberator?
>
>He can hardly be condemned as a failure 

I don't condemn him as a failure. During his life he succeeded beyond
expectation...

I wouldn't condemn him anyway as I am directly descended from the
Liberator.

>because, after all,  he
>never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
>of republicans alive today who failed 

Wrong tense.

Nik

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date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:10:19 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:11:41 +0100, "eugene" <eugene@home.com.invalid> wrote:

>
>"WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>news:3hvkg3pi12911hsf2osj5mkpion9l0v03m@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:58:57 +0100, "Westprog"  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>fizz@unison.ie wrote:
>>>...
>>>>>>> You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>>>> for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>>>> with him.
>>>
>>>> Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
>>>> Ergo: A good man
>>>
>>>
>>>In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind 
>>>militant
>>>republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
>>>smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
>>
>> It's sickening reading you and others running down the man when none of ye 
>> are
>> even fit to shine his shoes!   For shame!
>>
>> Ray
>>
>
>I know people who knew the man and I'll tell you this, if he had been aware 
>of the shite you post here, he would undoubtedly have approved of someone 
>giving you a good hammering..............nasty wee pretend Republican that 
>ye are!
>

I know people who know you and they're not exactly happy with the shite your
posting about me here either...    As for being a "pretend Republican", at least
I don't feel insecure enough to have to post pictures of me glad handing people
to prove how Republican I am...   You probably have 50 Irish flags ourside your
house to make sure everyone knows your a "Republican"...   

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************
date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:51:30 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
"WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
news:80rsg3hcsksld7nmdu2rtaqaskt0m32ua4@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:11:41 +0100, "eugene" <eugene@home.com.invalid> 
> wrote:

>>
>
> I know people who know you and they're not exactly happy with the shite 
> your
> posting about me here either...

hahahahahahahahahahahah!
date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:41 +0100   author:   eugene lid

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:41 +0100, "eugene" <eugene@home.com.invalid> wrote:

>
>"WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
>news:80rsg3hcsksld7nmdu2rtaqaskt0m32ua4@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:11:41 +0100, "eugene" <eugene@home.com.invalid> 
>> wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> I know people who know you and they're not exactly happy with the shite 
>> your
>> posting about me here either...
>
>hahahahahahahahahahahah!
>


Moron!

Ray

-- 
****************************************************************************************
When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say look at the trees.
Maimed, stark and misshapen, but ferociously tenacious - Edna O'Brien
****************************************************************************************
Email  : rayh(removeSPAM)@iol.ie : Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
****************************************************************************************
date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:06:26 -0400   author:   WhiteWolf rayhspam@iol.ie

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:10:19 +1300, Nik  wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:26:15 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:02:51 +1300, Nik  wrote:
>>
>>>However, O'Connell tried constitutional change - it didn't work,
>>
>>Then why is he usually referred to as the liberator?
>>
>>He can hardly be condemned as a failure 
>
>I don't condemn him as a failure. During his life he succeeded beyond
>expectation...

... by pursuing constitutional change through constitutional means.

>I wouldn't condemn him anyway as I am directly descended from the
>Liberator.

You have mentioned that before. Maybe you might prefer to keep
quiet on your relationship with a key supporter of the Opium War, and
the man who kept collecting his Catholic Rent during the famine.

>>because, after all,  he
>>never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
>>of republicans alive today who failed 

> Wrong tense.

Then take your pick:
"...plenty of republicans alive today who have failed..."
"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have failed..."
"...plenty of republicans alive today who are failing..."
"...plenty of republicans alive today who were failing..."
"...plenty of republicans alive today who have been failing..."
"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have been failing..."
"...plenty of republicans alive today who sold out..."

David H

-- 
abend
date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:40 GMT   author:   (David H)

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
"WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message 
news:b24tg3tgm2k654mjagdi9ir2kvo7l4gr0f@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:41 +0100, "eugene" <eugene@home.com.invalid> 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"WhiteWolf <rayh<spam>@iol.ie>"  wrote in message
>>news:80rsg3hcsksld7nmdu2rtaqaskt0m32ua4@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:11:41 +0100, "eugene" <eugene@home.com.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I know people who know you and they're not exactly happy with the shite
>>> your
>>> posting about me here either...
>>
>>hahahahahahahahahahahah!
>>
>
>
> Moron!
>
> Ray

Listen you wee gobshite! Name one person outside of this group......just 
one......who knows me and who also knows you! Ya lying wee bastard!

Cos I know a great number of people in Sinn Fein and ex-army and they 
certainly never heard of you!

C'mon laddie............just one name out of the hundreds that you 
know.....ya know............wink wink......nudge nudge!
date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:12:34 +0100   author:   eugene lid

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:40 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:10:19 +1300, Nik  wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:26:15 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:02:51 +1300, Nik  wrote:
>>>
>>>>However, O'Connell tried constitutional change - it didn't work,
>>>
>>>Then why is he usually referred to as the liberator?
>>>
>>>He can hardly be condemned as a failure 
>>
>>I don't condemn him as a failure. During his life he succeeded beyond
>>expectation...
>
>... by pursuing constitutional change through constitutional means.
>
>>I wouldn't condemn him anyway as I am directly descended from the
>>Liberator.
>
>You have mentioned that before. Maybe you might prefer to keep
>quiet on your relationship with a key supporter of the Opium War, and
>the man who kept collecting his Catholic Rent during the famine.

Dat's fuckin naughty isn't it now?

I'm proud of my familial connection to the great Dan. 

I don't give a shit about any muck that you may rake on him. I don't
require him to be perfect, he was what he was and I love him for it.

>>>because, after all,  he
>>>never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
>>>of republicans alive today who failed 
>
>> Wrong tense.
>
>Then take your pick:
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have failed..."
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have failed..."
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who are failing..."
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who were failing..."
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have been failing..."
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have been failing..."
>"...plenty of republicans alive today who sold out..."

"...plenty of Republicans alive today who are about to see the full
fruit of the Irish Republican cause and the stuggle and who're already
enjoying the change including the dismantlement of ALL the observation
posts, the official end of Operation Banner, a reduction in British
troop presence to the level prior to Operation Banner's initial
implementation, a Stormont government with Martin McGuinness as Second
Minister?"

The Republican movement has succeeded admirably and has yet to reach
the full and final fruitition of its action over history.

Tiocfaidh ar la!

Nik

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date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:03:29 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:03:29 +1300, Nik  wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:40 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
>wrote:

>>You have mentioned that before. Maybe you might prefer to keep
>>quiet on your relationship with a key supporter of the Opium War, and
>>the man who kept collecting his Catholic Rent during the famine.
>
>Dat's fuckin naughty isn't it now?
>
>I'm proud of my familial connection to the great Dan. 
>
>I don't give a shit about any muck that you may rake on him. I don't
>require him to be perfect, he was what he was and I love him for it.

That could apply to anyone, though, couldn't it? - sort of - "Ignoring
half of what he did, the other half was OK"

>>>>because, after all,  he
>>>>never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
>>>>of republicans alive today who failed 
>>
>>> Wrong tense.
>>
>>Then take your pick:
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have failed..."
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have failed..."
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who are failing..."
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who were failing..."
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have been failing..."
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have been failing..."
>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who sold out..."
>
>"...plenty of Republicans alive today who are about to see the full
>fruit of the Irish Republican cause and the stuggle and who're already
>enjoying the change including the dismantlement of ALL the observation
>posts, the official end of Operation Banner, a reduction in British
>troop presence to the level prior to Operation Banner's initial
>implementation,

Ahem. Just like the old days, then. I vaguely remember going to
a go-kart race in the grounds of Palace Barracks in the 1960s.
Boy scouts selling toffee apples, etc.

Who knows, it could happen again.

>a Stormont government with Martin McGuinness as Second
>Minister?"

Or, as Paisley refers to him, "the deputy"

>The Republican movement has succeeded admirably and has yet to reach
>the full and final fruitition of its action over history.

How is that going to happen then?

>Tiocfaidh ár lá!

Such as it is, your day is already here. Make the most of it, if you
can recognise it in comparison with what you had hoped.

David H

-- 
abend
date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:54:41 GMT   author:   (David H)

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
"David H"  wrote in message
news:470f864a.23384015@news.individual.net...

> >a Stormont government with Martin McGuinness as Second
> >Minister?"

> Or, as Paisley refers to him, "the deputy"

And there was a nationalist deputy minister thirty years earlier. The only
reason that it was the wrong Gerry is that nationalists didn't vote for the
people who were blocking the peace process. Unfortunately loyalists did.

> >The Republican movement has succeeded admirably and has yet to reach
> >the full and final fruitition of its action over history.

> How is that going to happen then?

> >Tiocfaidh ár lá!

> Such as it is, your day is already here. Make the most of it, if you
> can recognise it in comparison with what you had hoped.

Surely it's an inevitable stepping stone to a united Ireland? Somehow, you
know.

-- 



J/

SOTW: "When Under Ether" - P.J.Harvey
date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:58:14 +0100   author:   Westprog

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:54:41 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:03:29 +1300, Nik  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:40 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
>>wrote:
>
>>>You have mentioned that before. Maybe you might prefer to keep
>>>quiet on your relationship with a key supporter of the Opium War, and
>>>the man who kept collecting his Catholic Rent during the famine.
>>
>>Dat's fuckin naughty isn't it now?
>>
>>I'm proud of my familial connection to the great Dan. 
>>
>>I don't give a shit about any muck that you may rake on him. I don't
>>require him to be perfect, he was what he was and I love him for it.
>
>That could apply to anyone, though, couldn't it?

No.

> - sort of - "Ignoring half of what he did, the other half was OK"

If being a prat in debates gives you joy you must be in raptures at
the moment.

O'Connell was revered rather than reviled, you know that though, I'm
sure. 

>>>>>because, after all,  he
>>>>>never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
>>>>>of republicans alive today who failed 
>>>
>>>> Wrong tense.
>>>
>>>Then take your pick:
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have failed..."
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have failed..."
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who are failing..."
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who were failing..."
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have been failing..."
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have been failing..."
>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who sold out..."
>>
>>"...plenty of Republicans alive today who are about to see the full
>>fruit of the Irish Republican cause and the stuggle and who're already
>>enjoying the change including the dismantlement of ALL the observation
>>posts, the official end of Operation Banner, a reduction in British
>>troop presence to the level prior to Operation Banner's initial
>>implementation,

<more gobshitery>
>Ahem. Just like the old days, then. I vaguely remember going to
>a go-kart race in the grounds of Palace Barracks in the 1960s.
>Boy scouts selling toffee apples, etc.
>
>Who knows, it could happen again.
</more gobshitery>

>>a Stormont government with Martin McGuinness as Second
>>Minister?"
>
>Or, as Paisley refers to him, "the deputy"

There you go...

>>The Republican movement has succeeded admirably and has yet to reach
>>the full and final fruitition of its action over history.
>
>How is that going to happen then?

Time will tell.

>>Tiocfaidh ár lá!
>
>Such as it is, your day is already here.

It is dawning right now.

> Make the most of it, if you
>can recognise it in comparison with what you had hoped.

Of course.

Nik

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date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:55:59 +1300   author:   Nik

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Falcon wrote:
> Westprog wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Falcon"  wrote in message
>>news:fei3lr$772$1@aioe.org...
>>
>>>Nik wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
>>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>>>Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
>>>>>end,
>>>>
>>>>Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
>>>>the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.
>>
>>I suggest Nik would do well to research how Martin Luther King reacted
>>when the KKK blew up a church and killed a number of small girls. (Hint -
>>he didn't ask Canada to ship him guns).
> 
> 
> The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was inspired by the 
> African-American Civil Rights Movement. However there is little evidence to 
> suggest that the AACCRM regularly employed gunmen to fire on police officers 
> or soldiers during riots, or considered mounting a 30-year bombing campaign 
> to achieve their aims. The IRA terror campaign was never about civil rights 
> and it was never about Bombay Street.
> 


The leftist IRA created NICRA,

"The IRA terror campaign was never about civil rights and it was never 
about Bombay Street."

True enough, the IRA would of course split and would go through a 
traditional phase, a love of guns etc.

Defenderism, jobs, civil rights etc. not really objectives,

at least in the sense of not being central to what they wanted to obtain 
from the chaos. Defenderism was purely for PR.
date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:12:25 GMT   author:   Jürs J?

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Westprog wrote:
> "Falcon"  wrote in message
> news:fei3lr$772$1@aioe.org...
> 
>>Nik wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 10:38:10 +0100, "Westprog" 
>>>wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>Now that the thirty year war to establish a police omsbudsman is at an
>>>>end,
>>>
>>>Tell me please, Westie, what you would have done if you were one of
>>>the Bombay Street residents in 1969.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>He's British at heart. He would have bombed Dresden.
> 
> 
> I suggest Nik would do well to research how Martin Luther King reacted when
> the KKK blew up a church and killed a number of small girls. (Hint - he
> didn't ask Canada to ship him guns).
> 

The NICRA were a leftie radical thing, the PIRA accepted the chaos the 
leftist IRA centre bequeathed to them.

If the (P)IRA were interested in jobs they could have had a dozen 
factories in West Belfast, by simply asking.

The IRA didn't want factories.

They wanted a war.
date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:13:34 GMT   author:   Jürs J?

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
David H wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 23:36:58 -0700, "Boedicia@isp.com"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>Is this the person who, according to my newspaper was
>>bombing London in 1939/1940?  One would think that Londoners
>>would have enough problems dodging German bombs without
>>those of some Irish piece of filth at the same time.  Funny thing
>>about the IRA, during WW2 they were nazis, the moment the
>>war was over, they reverted abck to their bolshie ways.
> 
> 
> To be fair to them, they were bombing Britain during the
> era of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Uncle Joe may have
> discouraged them from bombing Britain after Barbarossa.
> 
> Republicans seem to have had terrible trouble picking a
> dignified path through WW2.
> 
> David H
> 



I don't think Stalin had much to do with the IRA, ditto for the Nazis. I 
would imagine many IRA connected people fought for the Brits.

The IRA were interested in people who were prepared to help them do 
things the IRA wanted to do.

The IRA were not open to speculative collaboration with either the Nazis 
or Stalin. The IRA were generally anti-fascist.
date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:20:35 GMT   author:   Jürs J?

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
Westprog wrote:
> fizz@unison.ie wrote:
> ...
> 
>>>>>You'd think after being continuously betrayed by all his leaders
>>>>>for 105 years might lead him to think that maybe the problem was
>>>>>with him.
> 
> 
>>Like or dislike his politics he was a man who stuck to his principles.
>>Ergo: A good man
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, most bad men stick to bad principles. The bad ideas behind militant
> republicanism have been found wanting for a hundred years. A smaller and
> smaller number of people have been clinging onto them.
> 
> 


The 1916 rebellion was proof that miniscule levels of support will do 
quite nicely. Irish Republicism has frequently viewed mass support as a 
liability. A political constituency has to be served.

The IRA generally expected the people to serve the IRA. The IRA had to 
struggle to get to the point of adopting Sinn Fein as a political front 
and that relationship was off/on for decades.
date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:25:53 GMT   author:   Jürs J?

Re: Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105   
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:55:59 +1300, Nik  wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:54:41 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:03:29 +1300, Nik  wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:40 GMT, swelter@btinternet.com (David H)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>You have mentioned that before. Maybe you might prefer to keep
>>>>quiet on your relationship with a key supporter of the Opium War, and
>>>>the man who kept collecting his Catholic Rent during the famine.
>>>
>>>Dat's fuckin naughty isn't it now?
>>>
>>>I'm proud of my familial connection to the great Dan. 
>>>
>>>I don't give a shit about any muck that you may rake on him. I don't
>>>require him to be perfect, he was what he was and I love him for it.
>>
>>That could apply to anyone, though, couldn't it?
>
>No.
>
>> - sort of - "Ignoring half of what he did, the other half was OK"
>
>If being a prat in debates gives you joy you must be in raptures at
>the moment.
>
>O'Connell was revered rather than reviled, you know that though, I'm
>sure.

You don't require him to be perfect, but you revere him anyway?
Or you withhold your reverence because of his position on the Opium
wars?

Tell us what *you* think...
 
>>>>>>because, after all,  he
>>>>>>never set out to deliver what you wanted. Instead, there are plenty
>>>>>>of republicans alive today who failed 
>>>>
>>>>> Wrong tense.
>>>>
>>>>Then take your pick:
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have failed..."
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have failed..."
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who are failing..."
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who were failing..."
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who have been failing..."
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who will have been failing..."
>>>>"...plenty of republicans alive today who sold out..."
>>>
>>>"...plenty of Republicans alive today who are about to see the full
>>>fruit of the Irish Republican cause and the stuggle and who're already
>>>enjoying the change including the dismantlement of ALL the observation
>>>posts, the official end of Operation Banner, a reduction in British
>>>troop presence to the level prior to Operation Banner's initial
>>>implementation,
>
><more gobshitery>
>>Ahem. Just like the old days, then. I vaguely remember going to
>>a go-kart race in the grounds of Palace Barracks in the 1960s.
>>Boy scouts selling toffee apples, etc.
>>
>>Who knows, it could happen again.
></more gobshitery>

Nik, you were celebrating a return to the 1960's military position.
Me too! So what is your problem?

>>>The Republican movement has succeeded admirably and has yet to reach
>>>the full and final fruitition of its action over history.
>>
>>How is that going to happen then?
>
>Time will tell.

Are you waiting for time to tell *you* ? Or do you already know, but
you won't say?

>>>Tiocfaidh ár lá!

>>Such as it is, your day is already here.

>It is dawning right now.

so, what does it look like? Power sharing at Stormont within
the UK? Is there any part of that current situation that
you *want* to keep?

David H

-- 
abend
date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:24:48 GMT   author:   (David H)

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