I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor. My co-author had written:

  but some of them may be required in certain types of article.

and she changed it into

   but some of them may be required in certain types of articles.

To justify this, she referred to the Chicago Manual of Style at
  http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Usage/Usage89.html
where it says:

Q. Several times lately I've written or revised copy to change the word in
the prepositional phrase following "kinds of" or "types of" to the
singular from the plural"from "what kinds of cats"" "three types of
errors" to "what kinds of cat," "three types of error." And several times
a client has treated the resulting phrase like an error. I haven?t found
the answer to this usage question in CMOS. What do you think?

A. Your client is right. According to Webster's, "kinds of" takes a plural
if the relevant noun is countable. (Dictionaries are good for this kind of
question.)

Do we believe this? And do we trust Webster?


Sadly, Fowler seems silent on the issue, but it seems totally wrong to me,
certainly on this side of the pond.

So, can anyone find examples of either usage in well-known literature (and
even better in well-known American literature)? 

-- 
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131            Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

At 15:58:25 on Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Charles Lindsey  
wrote in :

Hi, Charles!

>I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor.

Since this relates to an RFC, can we presume that the intention is that 
it should adhere to the rules of US English, rather than to those of 
Commonwealth English?

If the intention is to write the RFC in Commonwealth English, then both 
Webster and the Chicago Manual of Style are irrelevant;  however, if it 
is intended to write it in US English, then this is not the appropriate 
newsgroup, and alt.usage.english/alt.english.usage would be better 
fitted to assist on the usage of US English.
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

In <A9$8EVyRWh7JFwUl@molly.mockford> Molly Mockford  writes:

>At 15:58:25 on Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Charles Lindsey  
>wrote in :

>Hi, Charles!

>>I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor.

>Since this relates to an RFC, can we presume that the intention is that 
>it should adhere to the rules of US English, rather than to those of 
>Commonwealth English?

No. The internet is international, and so is the IETF (and it even holds
meetings outside of N. America just to enhance its image :-( ).

And the fact that the RFC-Editor actually sits looking out over all the
boats in Marina-del-Rey does not of itself mean that US English is to be
preferred. The RFC-Editor is just another publishing house and hence has a
"house style" which is no more nor less stupid than any other publishing
house (and they are notoriously stupid, in general).

So I repeat my question. Which usage is correct: "how many breeds of dog
are there?" or "how many breeds of dogs are there?"? In English English,
for a start, and preferably with quotations (of either form) from
well-respected literature.

-- 
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131            Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

In article ,
Charles Lindsey  wrote:
> 
> So I repeat my question. Which usage is correct: "how many breeds of dog
> are there?" or "how many breeds of dogs are there?"? In English English,
> for a start, and preferably with quotations (of either form) from
> well-respected literature.

Well to my ears the former sounds correct.

But in the absence of well- respected literature, I did a Google search
for "kinds of" (including the quotes, to keep it as a phrase).

Surprisingly (to me), in the first several pages of results, countable
nouns were pluralised, almost without exception.

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Tony Mountifield wrote...
> Charles Lindsey wrote:
>>
>> So I repeat my question. Which usage is correct: "how many breeds 
>> of dog
>> are there?" or "how many breeds of dogs are there?"

> Well to my ears the former sounds correct.

And to mine, but I think there's a degree of distinction in British 
English that's been elided in America, where there seems to be an 
unbendable rule - if it's countable, it must be plural. Restricting 
the Google search to site:.uk shows that where the thing is 
countable, sometimes it's singular and sometimes plural. But one of 
the sites probably illustrates the nuance: 'Are there different 
kinds of stem cell?' It would be quite wrong in my view to write 
'cells' there. It seems to depend on the particularity of the thing, 
which some syntactician may be able to pin down.

-- 
Noel
[Incidentally, one of the Google results led me to a page called 
'Particular Kinds of Obligations':
http://www.russian-civil-code.com/PartII/SectionIV/
with *the* most baffling advert at the top. It might still be there 
if you're quick.]

"Charles Lindsey"  wrote in message
news:KII7J0.Lq6@clerew.man.ac.uk...
> In <A9$8EVyRWh7JFwUl@molly.mockford> Molly Mockford 
writes:
>
> >At 15:58:25 on Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Charles Lindsey 
> >wrote in :
>
> >Hi, Charles!
>
> >>I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor.
>
> >Since this relates to an RFC, can we presume that the intention is that
> >it should adhere to the rules of US English, rather than to those of
> >Commonwealth English?
>
> No. The internet is international, and so is the IETF (and it even holds
> meetings outside of N. America just to enhance its image :-( ).
>
> And the fact that the RFC-Editor actually sits looking out over all the
> boats in Marina-del-Rey does not of itself mean that US English is to be
> preferred. The RFC-Editor is just another publishing house and hence has a
> "house style" which is no more nor less stupid than any other publishing
> house (and they are notoriously stupid, in general).
>
> So I repeat my question. Which usage is correct: "how many breeds of dog
> are there?" or "how many breeds of dogs are there?"? In English English,
> for a start, and preferably with quotations (of either form) from
> well-respected literature.



The former. Because "dog" in this instance refers to the species canis
familiaris not to any particular member of that species i.e. any
particular dog, or dogs.

The question could equally well be expressed - "how many breeds of canis
familiaris are there ?"

As there's only one species canis familiaris, there can only be one dog
in this context.

Or put another way "dog" is being used in the abstract rather than in the
particular sense.  The same as one might ask "how many makes of car used
to be made in Detroit ?" Rather than "how many makes of cars used to be
made in Detroit ?"


michael adams

...




>
> -- 
> Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
> Tel: +44 161 436 6131            Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
> Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
> PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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"Charles Lindsey"  wrote in message 
news:KIGKDD.IuB@clerew.man.ac.uk...
>I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor. My co-author had written:
>
>  but some of them may be required in certain types of article.
>
> and she changed it into
>
>   but some of them may be required in certain types of articles.
>
> To justify this, she referred to the Chicago Manual of Style at
>  http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Usage/Usage89.html
> where it says:
>
> Q. Several times lately I've written or revised copy to change the word in
> the prepositional phrase following "kinds of" or "types of" to the
> singular from the plural"from "what kinds of cats"" "three types of
> errors" to "what kinds of cat," "three types of error." And several times
> a client has treated the resulting phrase like an error. I haven?t found
> the answer to this usage question in CMOS. What do you think?
>
> A. Your client is right. According to Webster's, "kinds of" takes a plural
> if the relevant noun is countable. (Dictionaries are good for this kind of
> question.)
>
> Do we believe this? And do we trust Webster?
>
>
> Sadly, Fowler seems silent on the issue, but it seems totally wrong to me,
> certainly on this side of the pond.
>
> So, can anyone find examples of either usage in well-known literature (and
> even better in well-known American literature)?
>
> -- 
> Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own 
> thing------------------------
> Tel: +44 161 436 6131            Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
> Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, 
> U.K.
> PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 
> AB A5