"... o somos o no somos"

It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
has forced me to write a new post in this blog:

"... porque o somos o no somos"
Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
other Latin-based language. The translation is
"to be or not to be"
And guess who, of all Spanish writers, could have written such an
original sentence, that is universally attributed to Shakespeare?

Some time ago I wrote a post on the same subject, "Cervantes y
Shakespeare eran la misma persona", where I exposed some of the
similarities between the two authors, that inexplicably seemed to have
gone largely unnoticed.

Salvador de Madariaga, the Spanish historian and writer pointed out
that:
"Hamlet and Don Quixote provide one of the most fascinating parallels
in literature: possibly because the two poets who created them were
contemporaries and unknown to each other spoke the same idiom."
Carlos Fuentes explores also the possibility of both authors being the
same man,
"Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows
himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date,
though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further
stated that perhaps both were the same man."
And Francis Carr abounds extensively on this theory, on his book "Who
Wrote Don Quixote?"

But all of them actually attribute Cervante's works to the hand of
Shakespeare or even Francis Bacon.
Any Spanish native speaker will tell you that Don Quixote could have
never be written by anyone who was not born and grown up in Spain.
That's why I am convinced that it was the other way around. It was
Cervantes who wrote all of Shakespeare's plays, because it is also
evident that the mother tongue of whoever wrote Shakespeare's plays
was not English.

That's the reason why he was making words up all the time, because his
actual command of English language was not that good.
Some examples:
* Creation of new meanings for words:
Wherever in your sightless substances ... (sightless meaning
invisible.)
* Substitution of adjectives for nouns:
In the dark backward and abyss of time ... (instead of In the dark and
backward ...)
* Grammatical mistakes:
Yes, you may have seen Cassio and she together ... (instead of Cassio
and her),
or Who does me this (instead of Who does this to me),
or And his more braver daughter could control thee (instead of And his
braver or And his more brave)

All those mistakes are very common among Spanish native speakers
trying to express themselves in English.

Shakespeare would also grab whatever word from Spanish that was handy
and use it if it suited him, similarly to what we do when we speak
Spanglish.
There are at least 1,500 different words and phrases that don't appear
anywhere in the English language prior to Shakespeare, many of them
literal translations or adaptations from Spanish or from ancient
languages such as Latin, of which Cervantes had a pretty good
knowledge.

Shakespeare usually made the verb or the subject the last word of the
sentence, rather than following the normal word order of English:
O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I (subject at end)
or
Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall (verb at end)
English does not lend itself to these kind of constructions as much as
Spanish or Latin.

Most English verbs are one syllable words: be, see, run, take... While
correr (Spanish), vedere (Latin), essere (Italian), are easier to use
for rhyming.
So Shakespeare would use or invent words taken right off these
languages.

Shakespeare's recorded life is full of empty "gaps", that scholars
usually refer to as the "Lost Years".

The First Lost Years
Although no attendance records for the period survive, it is agreed
that Shakespeare was educated at Stratford.
Neither there are documented facts about the life of William
Shakespeare between supposedly leaving school in 1578 and marrying
Anne Hathaway in 1582

What was Cervantes doing during that period?
By 1570, Cervantes had enlisted as a soldier in a Castilian infantry
regiment stationed in Naples, and continued his military life until
1575, when his ship was allegedly attacked by Algerian corsairs who
took him and the surviving passengers to Algiers, where according to
his own testimony, spent five years as a slave.
After his release, the following years saw him working for the Spanish
Crown as a secret agent on foreign lands.
Sounds like the plot of a novel to me ...

The Second Lost Years
Between 1582 and 1592 there are only four documented facts about
William Shakespeare:
1- Entries for the Baptism of his children in 1583 and 1585.
2- In 1589 a court documents name William Shakespeare and his parents
in a land dispute.
3- In 1592 he is referred to in a very famous pamphlet called the
"Groatsworth of Wit".

What was Cervantes doing during that period?
In Toledo, on December 12, 1584, he married the much younger Catalina
de Salazar.
During the next 20 years he led a nomadic and unaccountable for
existence, working on occasions as a purchasing agent for the Spanish
Armada.

There's no doubt that the plays of William Shakespeare required a
significant knowledge of Astronomy, Law, Seamanship and Military
matters, not to mention of Italy where many of his plays are based.
Because of this irrefutable fact scholars have debated that experience
of these matters must have been obtained during the Lost Years.
Cervantes was an expert in all of those subjects and in addition he
knew Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, Greek, Arab, etc. Not to mention
law, philosophy, classical literature, ancient and modern history,
mathematics, astronomy, art, music, medicine, etiquette and manners of
the nobility and English, French and Italian court life.

Now, I go one step further and ask myself and the world:
If the "official" Shakespeare couldn't possibly be the author of those
plays, what writer of that period was capable of achieving the
literary genius found in Shakespeare's plays, had a significant
knowledge of Astronomy and the Law, Seamanship and Military matters,
Etiquette and Manners of the nobility and had lived in Italy long
enough to be familiar with its culture?
No one, but Cervantes.
When I made this affirmation in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare,
some of the regular posters there even doubted that Cervantes had any
knowledge of English customs and traditions, leave alone English court
life, but how do you account for then that Cervantes could have
written something like "THE SPANISH-ENGLISH LADY" without having been
to England, more specifically at the Royal Court?

Judge for yourself just by reading these two excerpts from the
"Novelas Exemplares", first published in 1613, three years before the
death of Cervantes:

"The preparations for the wedding were all made, the relations and
friends of the family were invited, and nothing remained but to make
known the intended match to the Queen, no marriage between persons of
noble blood being lawful without her knowledge and consent; but making
no doubt of obtaining the royal licence, they put off applying for it
to the last. Things being in this state, their joy was disturbed one
evening by the appearance of one of the Queen's servants with an order
to Clotald from her Majesty, requiring his appearance before her next
morning with his Spanish prisoner. He replied that he would cheerfully
obey her Majesty's command. The messenger retired, and left the family
in great perturbation; "Alas," said dame Catherine, "what if the Queen
knows that I have brought up this girl as a Catholic, and thence
infers that we are all of us Christians in this house! For, if her
Majesty asks her what she has learned during the eight years she has
been with us, what answer can she give with all her discretion, poor
timid girl, that will not condemn us?"

"Richard having at length quitted Isabella, went and told his parents
that on no account would he marry the Scotch lady until he had first
been to Rome for the satisfaction of his conscience; and he
represented the matter in such a light to them and to the relations of
Clesterna (that was the name of the Scotch lady), that as they were
all Catholics, they easily assented, and Clesterna was content to
remain in her father-in-law's house until the return of Richard, who
proposed to be away a year. This being settled, Clotald told his son
of his intention to send Isabella and her parents to Spain, if the
queen gave them leave; perhaps her native air would confirm and
expedite her incipient recovery. Richard, to avoid betraying his
secret intentions, desired his father, with seeming indifference, to
do as he thought best; only he begged him not to take away from
Isabella any of the presents which the queen had given her. Clotald
promised this, and the same day he went and asked the queen's leave
both to marry his son to Clesterna, and to send Isabella and her
parents to Spain. The queen granted both requests, and without having
recourse to lawyers or judges, she forthwith passed sentence on the
lady keeper, condemning her to lose her office, and to pay down ten
thousand crowns for Isabella. As for Count Ernest, she banished him
from England for six years."

Not too bad as an insight by a person barely competent in English into
the customs and traditions of England at that time, I must say ...

It needs to be taken into account that Cervantes was not in any way
interested in letting the English public know about his authorship for
obvious reasons.
Spain and England had been recently at war and the Spanish Armada had
made a failed attempt at invading England.
If Shakespeare's plays had bore the name of an Spanish author, they
would immediately have aroused hostility among critics and the general
public. If in addition, that Spanish author happened to be a soldier,
who had served as a spy on foreign lands for the Spanish Crown and as
a purchasing agent for the Spanish Armada, the chances of keeping his
head attached to his body would have been close to nil.
But on the other hand, Cervantes could have never dream of publishing
many of Shakespeare's plays under Spain's ultra religious regime at
that moment, without being diligently roasted.

There are plenty more facts that add weight to the hypothesis that
Shakespeare was in fact a disguised Cervantes, such as "The Distrest
Lovers", which is clearly based on the "Cardenio" episode in Don
Quixote.

Truth is, the only writings proven to be from the hand of the poor man
from an illiterate household in the remote agricultural town of
Stratford-upon-Avon are six shaky, inconsistent signatures on legal
documents, including three found on his will.
And they reveal that Mr. Shakspere (his real name) experienced
difficulty even signing his own name.
Judge for yourself again and compare those signatures to those of
Cervantes, and guess which one of the two could have possibly written
some of the best plays and novels ever.



The greatest, most famous play about Scotland is Macbeth.
The greatest plays about Italy are Romeo and Juliet, The Merchant of
Venice and Othello, the Moor of Venice.
The greatest play about ancient Rome is Julius Caesar.
The greatest play about ancient Egypt is Antony and Cleopatra.
The greatest play about Denmark is Hamlet.
These seven plays were written by the same man but one the most
important European nation at that time is conspicuous by its absence
in this catalogue of masterpieces. There is no world-famous play about
Spain, which is on the same level of genius as the plays just
mentioned; but there is one great novel about Spain which is just as
famous throughout the world, Don Quixote.

On April 23, 1616, both Cervantes and Shakespeare died. The two dates
are the same, in the records, but because England was using the Julian
Calendar, the actual date differed by ten days, enough for a dying
Cervantes (whose grave, oddly no one bothered to mark) to travel to
England and die as Shakespeare.

As a final thought, don't forget that Shakespeare, sorry Cervantes,
was also an actor, which by definition is someone who fools people
into believing he is another character.
And no one could deny that the man was very good at making up all
kinds of fictional stories, such as reinventing his own past life,
perhaps?

--
"In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd".
- Miguel de Cervantes

"Time's glory is to calm contending kings,
To unmask falsehood and bring truth to light."
— William Shakespeare

http://rafaminu.blogspot.com/2008/10/o-somos-o-no-somos.html

Much ado about nothing.

In article
,
Sancho  wrote:

> "... o somos o no somos"
> 
> It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
> 
> "... porque o somos o no somos"
> Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> other Latin-based language. The translation is
> "to be or not to be"
> And guess who, of all Spanish writers, could have written such an
> original sentence, that is universally attributed to Shakespeare?
> 
> Some time ago I wrote a post on the same subject, "Cervantes y
> Shakespeare eran la misma persona", where I exposed some of the
> similarities between the two authors, that inexplicably seemed to have
> gone largely unnoticed.
> 
> Salvador de Madariaga, the Spanish historian and writer pointed out
> that:
> "Hamlet and Don Quixote provide one of the most fascinating parallels
> in literature: possibly because the two poets who created them were
> contemporaries and unknown to each other spoke the same idiom."
> Carlos Fuentes explores also the possibility of both authors being the
> same man,
> "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows
> himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date,
> though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further
> stated that perhaps both were the same man."
> And Francis Carr abounds extensively on this theory, on his book "Who
> Wrote Don Quixote?"
> 
> But all of them actually attribute Cervante's works to the hand of
> Shakespeare or even Francis Bacon.
> Any Spanish native speaker will tell you that Don Quixote could have
> never be written by anyone who was not born and grown up in Spain.
> That's why I am convinced that it was the other way around. It was
> Cervantes who wrote all of Shakespeare's plays, because it is also
> evident that the mother tongue of whoever wrote Shakespeare's plays
> was not English.
> 
> That's the reason why he was making words up all the time, because his
> actual command of English language was not that good.
> Some examples:
> * Creation of new meanings for words:
> Wherever in your sightless substances ... (sightless meaning
> invisible.)
> * Substitution of adjectives for nouns:
> In the dark backward and abyss of time ... (instead of In the dark and
> backward ...)
> * Grammatical mistakes:
> Yes, you may have seen Cassio and she together ... (instead of Cassio
> and her),
> or Who does me this (instead of Who does this to me),
> or And his more braver daughter could control thee (instead of And his
> braver or And his more brave)
> 
> All those mistakes are very common among Spanish native speakers
> trying to express themselves in English.
> 
> Shakespeare would also grab whatever word from Spanish that was handy
> and use it if it suited him, similarly to what we do when we speak
> Spanglish.
> There are at least 1,500 different words and phrases that don't appear
> anywhere in the English language prior to Shakespeare, many of them
> literal translations or adaptations from Spanish or from ancient
> languages such as Latin, of which Cervantes had a pretty good
> knowledge.
> 
> Shakespeare usually made the verb or the subject the last word of the
> sentence, rather than following the normal word order of English:
> O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I (subject at end)
> or
> Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall (verb at end)
> English does not lend itself to these kind of constructions as much as
> Spanish or Latin.
> 
> Most English verbs are one syllable words: be, see, run, take... While
> correr (Spanish), vedere (Latin), essere (Italian), are easier to use
> for rhyming.
> So Shakespeare would use or invent words taken right off these
> languages.
> 
> Shakespeare's recorded life is full of empty "gaps", that scholars
> usually refer to as the "Lost Years".
> 
> The First Lost Years
> Although no attendance records for the period survive, it is agreed
> that Shakespeare was educated at Stratford.
> Neither there are documented facts about the life of William
> Shakespeare between supposedly leaving school in 1578 and marrying
> Anne Hathaway in 1582
> 
> What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> By 1570, Cervantes had enlisted as a soldier in a Castilian infantry
> regiment stationed in Naples, and continued his military life until
> 1575, when his ship was allegedly attacked by Algerian corsairs who
> took him and the surviving passengers to Algiers, where according to
> his own testimony, spent five years as a slave.
> After his release, the following years saw him working for the Spanish
> Crown as a secret agent on foreign lands.
> Sounds like the plot of a novel to me ...
> 
> The Second Lost Years
> Between 1582 and 1592 there are only four documented facts about
> William Shakespeare:
> 1- Entries for the Baptism of his children in 1583 and 1585.
> 2- In 1589 a court documents name William Shakespeare and his parents
> in a land dispute.
> 3- In 1592 he is referred to in a very famous pamphlet called the
> "Groatsworth of Wit".
> 
> What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> In Toledo, on December 12, 1584, he married the much younger Catalina
> de Salazar.
> During the next 20 years he led a nomadic and unaccountable for
> existence, working on occasions as a purchasing agent for the Spanish
> Armada.
> 
> There's no doubt that the plays of William Shakespeare required a
> significant knowledge of Astronomy, Law, Seamanship and Military
> matters, not to mention of Italy where many of his plays are based.
> Because of this irrefutable fact scholars have debated that experience
> of these matters must have been obtained during the Lost Years.
> Cervantes was an expert in all of those subjects and in addition he
> knew Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, Greek, Arab, etc. Not to mention
> law, philosophy, classical literature, ancient and modern history,
> mathematics, astronomy, art, music, medicine, etiquette and manners of
> the nobility and English, French and Italian court life.
> 
> Now, I go one step further and ask myself and the world:
> If the "official" Shakespeare couldn't possibly be the author of those
> plays, what writer of that period was capable of achieving the
> literary genius found in Shakespeare's plays, had a significant
> knowledge of Astronomy and the Law, Seamanship and Military matters,
> Etiquette and Manners of the nobility and had lived in Italy long
> enough to be familiar with its culture?
> No one, but Cervantes.
> When I made this affirmation in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare,
> some of the regular posters there even doubted that Cervantes had any
> knowledge of English customs and traditions, leave alone English court
> life, but how do you account for then that Cervantes could have
> written something like "THE SPANISH-ENGLISH LADY" without having been
> to England, more specifically at the Royal Court?
> 
> Judge for yourself just by reading these two excerpts from the
> "Novelas Exemplares", first published in 1613, three years before the
> death of Cervantes:
> 
> "The preparations for the wedding were all made, the relations and
> friends of the family were invited, and nothing remained but to make
> known the intended match to the Queen, no marriage between persons of
> noble blood being lawful without her knowledge and consent; but making
> no doubt of obtaining the royal licence, they put off applying for it
> to the last. Things being in this state, their joy was disturbed one
> evening by the appearance of one of the Queen's servants with an order
> to Clotald from her Majesty, requiring his appearance before her next
> morning with his Spanish prisoner. He replied that he would cheerfully
> obey her Majesty's command. The messenger retired, and left the family
> in great perturbation; "Alas," said dame Catherine, "what if the Queen
> knows that I have brought up this girl as a Catholic, and thence
> infers that we are all of us Christians in this house! For, if her
> Majesty asks her what she has learned during the eight years she has
> been with us, what answer can she give with all her discretion, poor
> timid girl, that will not condemn us?"
> 
> "Richard having at length quitted Isabella, went and told his parents
> that on no account would he marry the Scotch lady until he had first
> been to Rome for the satisfaction of his conscience; and he
> represented the matter in such a light to them and to the relations of
> Clesterna (that was the name of the Scotch lady), that as they were
> all Catholics, they easily assented, and Clesterna was content to
> remain in her father-in-law's house until the return of Richard, who
> proposed to be away a year. This being settled, Clotald told his son
> of his intention to send Isabella and her parents to Spain, if the
> queen gave them leave; perhaps her native air would confirm and
> expedite her incipient recovery. Richard, to avoid betraying his
> secret intentions, desired his father, with seeming indifference, to
> do as he thought best; only he begged him not to take away from
> Isabella any of the presents which the queen had given her. Clotald
> promised this, and the same day he went and asked the queen's leave
> both to marry his son to Clesterna, and to send Isabella and her
> parents to Spain. The queen granted both requests, and without having
> recourse to lawyers or judges, she forthwith passed sentence on the
> lady keeper, condemning her to lose her office, and to pay down ten
> thousand crowns for Isabella. As for Count Ernest, she banished him
> from England for six years."
> 
> Not too bad as an insight by a person barely competent in English into
> the customs and traditions of England at that time, I must say ...
> 
> It needs to be taken into account that Cervantes was not in any way
> interested in letting the English public know about his authorship for
> obvious reasons.
> Spain and England had been recently at war and the Spanish Armada had
> made a failed attempt at invading England.
> If Shakespeare's plays had bore the name of an Spanish author, they
> would immediately have aroused hostility among critics and the general
> public. If in addition, that Spanish author happened to be a soldier,
> who had served as a spy on foreign lands for the Spanish Crown and as
> a purchasing agent for the Spanish Armada, the chances of keeping his
> head attached to his body would have been close to nil.
> But on the other hand, Cervantes could have never dream of publishing
> many of Shakespeare's plays under Spain's ultra religious regime at
> that moment, without being diligently roasted.
> 
> There are plenty more facts that add weight to the hypothesis that
> Shakespeare was in fact a disguised Cervantes, such as "The Distrest
> Lovers", which is clearly based on the "Cardenio" episode in Don
> Quixote.
> 
> Truth is, the only writings proven to be from the hand of the poor man
> from an illiterate household in the remote agricultural town of
> Stratford-upon-Avon are six shaky, inconsistent signatures on legal
> documents, including three found on his will.
> And they reveal that Mr. Shakspere (his real name) experienced
> difficulty even signing his own name.
> Judge for yourself again and compare those signatures to those of
> Cervantes, and guess which one of the two could have possibly written
> some of the best plays and novels ever.
> 
> 
> 
> The greatest, most famous play about Scotland is Macbeth.
> The greatest plays about Italy are Romeo and Juliet, The Merchant of
> Venice and Othello, the Moor of Venice.
> The greatest play about ancient Rome is Julius Caesar.
> The greatest play about ancient Egypt is Antony and Cleopatra.
> The greatest play about Denmark is Hamlet.
> These seven plays were written by the same man but one the most
> important European nation at that time is conspicuous by its absence
> in this catalogue of masterpieces. There is no world-famous play about
> Spain, which is on the same level of genius as the plays just
> mentioned; but there is one great novel about Spain which is just as
> famous throughout the world, Don Quixote.
> 
> On April 23, 1616, both Cervantes and Shakespeare died. The two dates
> are the same, in the records, but because England was using the Julian
> Calendar, the actual date differed by ten days, enough for a dying
> Cervantes (whose grave, oddly no one bothered to mark) to travel to
> England and die as Shakespeare.
> 
> As a final thought, don't forget that Shakespeare, sorry Cervantes,
> was also an actor, which by definition is someone who fools people
> into believing he is another character.
> And no one could deny that the man was very good at making up all
> kinds of fictional stories, such as reinventing his own past life,
> perhaps?
> 
> --
> "In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd".
> - Miguel de Cervantes
> 
> "Time's glory is to calm contending kings,
> To unmask falsehood and bring truth to light."
> — William Shakespeare
> 
> http://rafaminu.blogspot.com/2008/10/o-somos-o-no-somos.html

Sancho wrote:
> "... o somos o no somos"
> 
> It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
> 
> "... porque o somos o no somos"
> Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> other Latin-based language. The translation is
> "to be or not to be"

No it isn't -- which proves your Spanish is even worse than mine, Jim -- 
and about all I know is "La via del tren subterraneo es peligrosa." But 
cheer up! At least, given the 50/50 choice between "estar" and "ser", 
you picked the right verb.

It's a patently absurd argument, anyway. Neither Shakespeare nor any 
other figure of the Renaissance invented ὄν καὶ μή ὄν.


-- 
John W. Kennedy
  "Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
   -- Charles Williams.  "Judgement at Chelmsford"

"John W Kennedy"  wrote in message 
news:48e577b3$0$5671$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> Sancho wrote:
>> "... o somos o no somos"
>>
>> It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
>> has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
>>
>> "... porque o somos o no somos"
>> Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
>> other Latin-based language. The translation is
>> "to be or not to be"
>
> No it isn't -- which proves your Spanish is even worse than mine, Jim -- 
> and about all I know is "La via del tren subterraneo es peligrosa." But 
> cheer up! At least, given the 50/50 choice between "estar" and "ser", you 
> picked the right verb.
>
> It's a patently absurd argument, anyway. Neither Shakespeare nor any other 
> figure of the Renaissance invented ?? ??? ?? ??.
>
>

Careful, you'll set C. Lanciai off:

Bid ?? ??? ?? ?? farewell, Galen come!

Peter G.

> -- 
> John W. Kennedy
>  "Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
>   -- Charles Williams.  "Judgement at Chelmsford"

John W Kennedy wrote:
> Sancho wrote:
>> "... o somos o no somos"
>>
>> It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
>> has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
>>
>> "... porque o somos o no somos"
>> Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
>> other Latin-based language. The translation is
>> "to be or not to be"
> 
> No it isn't -- which proves your Spanish is even worse than mine, Jim -- 
> and about all I know is "La via del tren subterraneo es peligrosa." But 
> cheer up! At least, given the 50/50 choice between "estar" and "ser", 
> you picked the right verb.
> 
> It's a patently absurd argument, anyway. Neither Shakespeare nor any 
> other figure of the Renaissance invented ὄν καὶ μή ὄν.
> 
> 

Hi John,

Nice riposte.

I have had trouble implementing polytonic Greek on the 
keyboard,   Any assistance you can give me, since you 
clearly succeeded, would be welcome.

-- 
Francis A. Miniter

ως  ουκ  αν  αιων'  εκμαθοις  βροτων, πριν  αν
θανη  τις, ουτε ει χρηστος ουτ’ ει τω  κακος.

At 16:16:55 on Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Sancho  wrote in 
:

>"In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd". - 
>Miguel de Cervantes

I'm glad to see that you are attempting to practice what he preached.
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

On 3 Oct, 01:59, Skipper  wrote:
> Much ado about nothing.
Yeah, sure, but no rebuttal to any of the points presented,
but you surely wouldn't object to, for example, Bacon having written
Shakespeare's plays, am I right?

> In article
> ,
>
> Sancho  wrote:
> > "... o somos o no somos"
>
> > It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> > has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
>
> > "... porque o somos o no somos"
> > Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> > other Latin-based language. The translation is
> > "to be or not to be"
> > And guess who, of all Spanish writers, could have written such an
> > original sentence, that is universally attributed to Shakespeare?
>
> > Some time ago I wrote a post on the same subject, "Cervantes y
> > Shakespeare eran la misma persona", where I exposed some of the
> > similarities between the two authors, that inexplicably seemed to have
> > gone largely unnoticed.
>
> > Salvador de Madariaga, the Spanish historian and writer pointed out
> > that:
> > "Hamlet and Don Quixote provide one of the most fascinating parallels
> > in literature: possibly because the two poets who created them were
> > contemporaries and unknown to each other spoke the same idiom."
> > Carlos Fuentes explores also the possibility of both authors being the
> > same man,
> > "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows
> > himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date,
> > though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further
> > stated that perhaps both were the same man."
> > And Francis Carr abounds extensively on this theory, on his book "Who
> > Wrote Don Quixote?"
>
> > But all of them actually attribute Cervante's works to the hand of
> > Shakespeare or even Francis Bacon.
> > Any Spanish native speaker will tell you that Don Quixote could have
> > never be written by anyone who was not born and grown up in Spain.
> > That's why I am convinced that it was the other way around. It was
> > Cervantes who wrote all of Shakespeare's plays, because it is also
> > evident that the mother tongue of whoever wrote Shakespeare's plays
> > was not English.
>
> > That's the reason why he was making words up all the time, because his
> > actual command of English language was not that good.
> > Some examples:
> > * Creation of new meanings for words:
> > Wherever in your sightless substances ... (sightless meaning
> > invisible.)
> > * Substitution of adjectives for nouns:
> > In the dark backward and abyss of time ... (instead of In the dark and
> > backward ...)
> > * Grammatical mistakes:
> > Yes, you may have seen Cassio and she together ... (instead of Cassio
> > and her),
> > or Who does me this (instead of Who does this to me),
> > or And his more braver daughter could control thee (instead of And his
> > braver or And his more brave)
>
> > All those mistakes are very common among Spanish native speakers
> > trying to express themselves in English.
>
> > Shakespeare would also grab whatever word from Spanish that was handy
> > and use it if it suited him, similarly to what we do when we speak
> > Spanglish.
> > There are at least 1,500 different words and phrases that don't appear
> > anywhere in the English language prior to Shakespeare, many of them
> > literal translations or adaptations from Spanish or from ancient
> > languages such as Latin, of which Cervantes had a pretty good
> > knowledge.
>
> > Shakespeare usually made the verb or the subject the last word of the
> > sentence, rather than following the normal word order of English:
> > O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I (subject at end)
> > or
> > Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall (verb at end)
> > English does not lend itself to these kind of constructions as much as
> > Spanish or Latin.
>
> > Most English verbs are one syllable words: be, see, run, take... While
> > correr (Spanish), vedere (Latin), essere (Italian), are easier to use
> > for rhyming.
> > So Shakespeare would use or invent words taken right off these
> > languages.
>
> > Shakespeare's recorded life is full of empty "gaps", that scholars
> > usually refer to as the "Lost Years".
>
> > The First Lost Years
> > Although no attendance records for the period survive, it is agreed
> > that Shakespeare was educated at Stratford.
> > Neither there are documented facts about the life of William
> > Shakespeare between supposedly leaving school in 1578 and marrying
> > Anne Hathaway in 1582
>
> > What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> > By 1570, Cervantes had enlisted as a soldier in a Castilian infantry
> > regiment stationed in Naples, and continued his military life until
> > 1575, when his ship was allegedly attacked by Algerian corsairs who
> > took him and the surviving passengers to Algiers, where according to
> > his own testimony, spent five years as a slave.
> > After his release, the following years saw him working for the Spanish
> > Crown as a secret agent on foreign lands.
> > Sounds like the plot of a novel to me ...
>
> > The Second Lost Years
> > Between 1582 and 1592 there are only four documented facts about
> > William Shakespeare:
> > 1- Entries for the Baptism of his children in 1583 and 1585.
> > 2- In 1589 a court documents name William Shakespeare and his parents
> > in a land dispute.
> > 3- In 1592 he is referred to in a very famous pamphlet called the
> > "Groatsworth of Wit".
>
> > What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> > In Toledo, on December 12, 1584, he married the much younger Catalina
> > de Salazar.
> > During the next 20 years he led a nomadic and unaccountable for
> > existence, working on occasions as a purchasing agent for the Spanish
> > Armada.
>
> > There's no doubt that the plays of William Shakespeare required a
> > significant knowledge of Astronomy, Law, Seamanship and Military
> > matters, not to mention of Italy where many of his plays are based.
> > Because of this irrefutable fact scholars have debated that experience
> > of these matters must have been obtained during the Lost Years.
> > Cervantes was an expert in all of those subjects and in addition he
> > knew Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, Greek, Arab, etc. Not to mention
> > law, philosophy, classical literature, ancient and modern history,
> > mathematics, astronomy, art, music, medicine, etiquette and manners of
> > the nobility and English, French and Italian court life.
>
> > Now, I go one step further and ask myself and the world:
> > If the "official" Shakespeare couldn't possibly be the author of those
> > plays, what writer of that period was capable of achieving the
> > literary genius found in Shakespeare's plays, had a significant
> > knowledge of Astronomy and the Law, Seamanship and Military matters,
> > Etiquette and Manners of the nobility and had lived in Italy long
> > enough to be familiar with its culture?
> > No one, but Cervantes.
> > When I made this affirmation in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare,
> > some of the regular posters there even doubted that Cervantes had any
> > knowledge of English customs and traditions, leave alone English court
> > life, but how do you account for then that Cervantes could have
> > written something like "THE SPANISH-ENGLISH LADY" without having been
> > to England, more specifically at the Royal Court?
>
> > Judge for yourself just by reading these two excerpts from the
> > "Novelas Exemplares", first published in 1613, three years before the
> > death of Cervantes:
>
> > "The preparations for the wedding were all made, the relations and
> > friends of the family were invited, and nothing remained but to make
> > known the intended match to the Queen, no marriage between persons of
> > noble blood being lawful without her knowledge and consent; but making
> > no doubt of obtaining the royal licence, they put off applying for it
> > to the last. Things being in this state, their joy was disturbed one
> > evening by the appearance of one of the Queen's servants with an order
> > to Clotald from her Majesty, requiring his appearance before her next
> > morning with his Spanish prisoner. He replied that he would cheerfully
> > obey her Majesty's command. The messenger retired, and left the family
> > in great perturbation; "Alas," said dame Catherine, "what if the Queen
> > knows that I have brought up this girl as a Catholic, and thence
> > infers that we are all of us Christians in this house! For, if her
> > Majesty asks her what she has learned during the eight years she has
> > been with us, what answer can she give with all her discretion, poor
> > timid girl, that will not condemn us?"
>
> > "Richard having at length quitted Isabella, went and told his parents
> > that on no account would he marry the Scotch lady until he had first
> > been to Rome for the satisfaction of his conscience; and he
> > represented the matter in such a light to them and to the relations of
> > Clesterna (that was the name of the Scotch lady), that as they were
> > all Catholics, they easily assented, and Clesterna was content to
> > remain in her father-in-law's house until the return of Richard, who
> > proposed to be away a year. This being settled, Clotald told his son
> > of his intention to send Isabella and her parents to Spain, if the
> > queen gave them leave; perhaps her native air would confirm and
> > expedite her incipient recovery. Richard, to avoid betraying his
> > secret intentions, desired his father, with seeming indifference, to
> > do as he thought best; only he begged him not to take away from
> > Isabella any of the presents which the queen had given her. Clotald
> > promised this, and the same day he went and asked the queen's leave
> > both to marry his son to Clesterna, and to send Isabella and her
> > parents to Spain. The queen granted both requests, and without having
> > recourse to lawyers or judges, she forthwith passed sentence on the
> > lady keeper, condemning her to lose her office, and to pay down ten
> > thousand crowns for Isabella. As for Count Ernest, she banished him
> > from England for six years."
>
> > Not too bad as an insight by a person barely competent in English into
> > the customs and traditions of England at that time, I must say ...
>
> > It needs to be taken into account that Cervantes was not in any way
> > interested in letting the English public know about
>
> ...
>
> read more »

In article
,
Sancho  wrote:

> On 3 Oct, 01:59, Skipper  wrote:
> > Much ado about nothing.
> Yeah, sure, but no rebuttal to any of the points presented,
> but you surely wouldn't object to, for example, Bacon having written
> Shakespeare's plays, am I right?

That's hard to answer; first I'll have to look up the proper Olde
English term for bullshit.

> 
> > In article
> > ,
> >
> > Sancho  wrote:
> > > "... o somos o no somos"
> >
> > > It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> > > has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
> >
> > > "... porque o somos o no somos"
> > > Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> > > other Latin-based language. The translation is
> > > "to be or not to be"
> > > And guess who, of all Spanish writers, could have written such an
> > > original sentence, that is universally attributed to Shakespeare?
> >
> > > Some time ago I wrote a post on the same subject, "Cervantes y
> > > Shakespeare eran la misma persona", where I exposed some of the
> > > similarities between the two authors, that inexplicably seemed to have
> > > gone largely unnoticed.
> >
> > > Salvador de Madariaga, the Spanish historian and writer pointed out
> > > that:
> > > "Hamlet and Don Quixote provide one of the most fascinating parallels
> > > in literature: possibly because the two poets who created them were
> > > contemporaries and unknown to each other spoke the same idiom."
> > > Carlos Fuentes explores also the possibility of both authors being the
> > > same man,
> > > "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows
> > > himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date,
> > > though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further
> > > stated that perhaps both were the same man."
> > > And Francis Carr abounds extensively on this theory, on his book "Who
> > > Wrote Don Quixote?"
> >
> > > But all of them actually attribute Cervante's works to the hand of
> > > Shakespeare or even Francis Bacon.
> > > Any Spanish native speaker will tell you that Don Quixote could have
> > > never be written by anyone who was not born and grown up in Spain.
> > > That's why I am convinced that it was the other way around. It was
> > > Cervantes who wrote all of Shakespeare's plays, because it is also
> > > evident that the mother tongue of whoever wrote Shakespeare's plays
> > > was not English.
> >
> > > That's the reason why he was making words up all the time, because his
> > > actual command of English language was not that good.
> > > Some examples:
> > > * Creation of new meanings for words:
> > > Wherever in your sightless substances ... (sightless meaning
> > > invisible.)
> > > * Substitution of adjectives for nouns:
> > > In the dark backward and abyss of time ... (instead of In the dark and
> > > backward ...)
> > > * Grammatical mistakes:
> > > Yes, you may have seen Cassio and she together ... (instead of Cassio
> > > and her),
> > > or Who does me this (instead of Who does this to me),
> > > or And his more braver daughter could control thee (instead of And his
> > > braver or And his more brave)
> >
> > > All those mistakes are very common among Spanish native speakers
> > > trying to express themselves in English.
> >
> > > Shakespeare would also grab whatever word from Spanish that was handy
> > > and use it if it suited him, similarly to what we do when we speak
> > > Spanglish.
> > > There are at least 1,500 different words and phrases that don't appear
> > > anywhere in the English language prior to Shakespeare, many of them
> > > literal translations or adaptations from Spanish or from ancient
> > > languages such as Latin, of which Cervantes had a pretty good
> > > knowledge.
> >
> > > Shakespeare usually made the verb or the subject the last word of the
> > > sentence, rather than following the normal word order of English:
> > > O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I (subject at end)
> > > or
> > > Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall (verb at end)
> > > English does not lend itself to these kind of constructions as much as
> > > Spanish or Latin.
> >
> > > Most English verbs are one syllable words: be, see, run, take... While
> > > correr (Spanish), vedere (Latin), essere (Italian), are easier to use
> > > for rhyming.
> > > So Shakespeare would use or invent words taken right off these
> > > languages.
> >
> > > Shakespeare's recorded life is full of empty "gaps", that scholars
> > > usually refer to as the "Lost Years".
> >
> > > The First Lost Years
> > > Although no attendance records for the period survive, it is agreed
> > > that Shakespeare was educated at Stratford.
> > > Neither there are documented facts about the life of William
> > > Shakespeare between supposedly leaving school in 1578 and marrying
> > > Anne Hathaway in 1582
> >
> > > What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> > > By 1570, Cervantes had enlisted as a soldier in a Castilian infantry
> > > regiment stationed in Naples, and continued his military life until
> > > 1575, when his ship was allegedly attacked by Algerian corsairs who
> > > took him and the surviving passengers to Algiers, where according to
> > > his own testimony, spent five years as a slave.
> > > After his release, the following years saw him working for the Spanish
> > > Crown as a secret agent on foreign lands.
> > > Sounds like the plot of a novel to me ...
> >
> > > The Second Lost Years
> > > Between 1582 and 1592 there are only four documented facts about
> > > William Shakespeare:
> > > 1- Entries for the Baptism of his children in 1583 and 1585.
> > > 2- In 1589 a court documents name William Shakespeare and his parents
> > > in a land dispute.
> > > 3- In 1592 he is referred to in a very famous pamphlet called the
> > > "Groatsworth of Wit".
> >
> > > What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> > > In Toledo, on December 12, 1584, he married the much younger Catalina
> > > de Salazar.
> > > During the next 20 years he led a nomadic and unaccountable for
> > > existence, working on occasions as a purchasing agent for the Spanish
> > > Armada.
> >
> > > There's no doubt that the plays of William Shakespeare required a
> > > significant knowledge of Astronomy, Law, Seamanship and Military
> > > matters, not to mention of Italy where many of his plays are based.
> > > Because of this irrefutable fact scholars have debated that experience
> > > of these matters must have been obtained during the Lost Years.
> > > Cervantes was an expert in all of those subjects and in addition he
> > > knew Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, Greek, Arab, etc. Not to mention
> > > law, philosophy, classical literature, ancient and modern history,
> > > mathematics, astronomy, art, music, medicine, etiquette and manners of
> > > the nobility and English, French and Italian court life.
> >
> > > Now, I go one step further and ask myself and the world:
> > > If the "official" Shakespeare couldn't possibly be the author of those
> > > plays, what writer of that period was capable of achieving the
> > > literary genius found in Shakespeare's plays, had a significant
> > > knowledge of Astronomy and the Law, Seamanship and Military matters,
> > > Etiquette and Manners of the nobility and had lived in Italy long
> > > enough to be familiar with its culture?
> > > No one, but Cervantes.
> > > When I made this affirmation in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare,
> > > some of the regular posters there even doubted that Cervantes had any
> > > knowledge of English customs and traditions, leave alone English court
> > > life, but how do you account for then that Cervantes could have
> > > written something like "THE SPANISH-ENGLISH LADY" without having been
> > > to England, more specifically at the Royal Court?
> >
> > > Judge for yourself just by reading these two excerpts from the
> > > "Novelas Exemplares", first published in 1613, three years before the
> > > death of Cervantes:
> >
> > > "The preparations for the wedding were all made, the relations and
> > > friends of the family were invited, and nothing remained but to make
> > > known the intended match to the Queen, no marriage between persons of
> > > noble blood being lawful without her knowledge and consent; but making
> > > no doubt of obtaining the royal licence, they put off applying for it
> > > to the last. Things being in this state, their joy was disturbed one
> > > evening by the appearance of one of the Queen's servants with an order
> > > to Clotald from her Majesty, requiring his appearance before her next
> > > morning with his Spanish prisoner. He replied that he would cheerfully
> > > obey her Majesty's command. The messenger retired, and left the family
> > > in great perturbation; "Alas," said dame Catherine, "what if the Queen
> > > knows that I have brought up this girl as a Catholic, and thence
> > > infers that we are all of us Christians in this house! For, if her
> > > Majesty asks her what she has learned during the eight years she has
> > > been with us, what answer can she give with all her discretion, poor
> > > timid girl, that will not condemn us?"
> >
> > > "Richard having at length quitted Isabella, went and told his parents
> > > that on no account would he marry the Scotch lady until he had first
> > > been to Rome for the satisfaction of his conscience; and he
> > > represented the matter in such a light to them and to the relations of
> > > Clesterna (that was the name of the Scotch lady), that as they were
> > > all Catholics, they easily assented, and Clesterna was content to
> > > remain in her father-in-law's house until the return of Richard, who
> > > proposed to be away a year. This being settled, Clotald told his son
> > > of his intention to send Isabella and her parents to Spain, if the
> > > queen gave them leave; perhaps her native air would confirm and
> > > expedite her incipient recovery. Richard, to avoid betraying his
> > > secret intentions, desired his father, with seeming indifference, to
> > > do as he thought best; only he begged him not to take away from
> > > Isabella any of the presents which the queen had given her. Clotald
> > > promised this, and the same day he went and asked the queen's leave
> > > both to marry his son to Clesterna, and to send Isabella and her
> > > parents to Spain. The queen granted both requests, and without having
> > > recourse to lawyers or judges, she forthwith passed sentence on the
> > > lady keeper, condemning her to lose her office, and to pay down ten
> > > thousand crowns for Isabella. As for Count Ernest, she banished him
> > > from England for six years."
> >
> > > Not too bad as an insight by a person barely competent in English into
> > > the customs and traditions of England at that time, I must say ...
> >
> > > It needs to be taken into account that Cervantes was not in any way
> > > interested in letting the English public know about
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
>

On 3 Oct, 15:07, Skipper  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
> Sancho  wrote:
> > On 3 Oct, 01:59, Skipper  wrote:
> > > Much ado about nothing.
> > Yeah, sure, but no rebuttal to any of the points presented,
> > but you surely wouldn't object to, for example, Bacon having written
> > Shakespeare's plays, am I right?
>
> That's hard to answer; first I'll have to look up the proper Olde
> English term for bullshit.

"Better a witty fool than a foolish wit"
- William Shakespeare

In article
,
Sancho  wrote:

> On 3 Oct, 15:07, Skipper  wrote:
> > In article
> > ,
> >
> > Sancho  wrote:
> > > On 3 Oct, 01:59, Skipper  wrote:
> > > > Much ado about nothing.
> > > Yeah, sure, but no rebuttal to any of the points presented,
> > > but you surely wouldn't object to, for example, Bacon having written
> > > Shakespeare's plays, am I right?
> >
> > That's hard to answer; first I'll have to look up the proper Olde
> > English term for bullshit.
> 
> "Better a witty fool than a foolish wit"
> - William Shakespeare

Good on you, Pancho, quoting Shakespeare instead of Cervantes.

On 3 Oct, 02:38, John W Kennedy  wrote:
> Sancho wrote:
> > "... o somos o no somos"
>
> > It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> > has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
>
> > "... porque o somos o no somos"
> > Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> > other Latin-based language. The translation is
> > "to be or not to be"
>
> No it isn't -- which proves your Spanish is even worse than mine, Jim --
> and about all I know is "La via del tren subterraneo es peligrosa." But
> cheer up! At least, given the 50/50 choice between "estar" and "ser",
> you picked the right verb.
--
Let me recommend to you that you'd better stick to making judgements
on matters that you know about, John.
The literal translation of "To be or not to be" in Spanish would be
"Ser o no ser", but NO ONE would ever use that expression unless he
was referring to Shakespeare.
You are talking to a person with many years of translation and
interpretation on his back, John, and you can check it out by yourself
at the following link:
http://www.geocities.com/rafael_minuesa/languages.html

> It's a patently absurd argument, anyway. Neither Shakespeare nor any
--
"In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd".
- Miguel de Cervantes

> other figure of the Renaissance invented ὄν καὶ μή ὄν.
--
"Προκειμένου να επιτευχθεί το αδύνατο, κάποιος θα πρέπει να
επιχειρήσει το παράλογο"

In article
,
Sancho  wrote:

> "In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd".
> - Miguel de Cervantes

Your post was certainly an absurd attempt at attaining the impossible.

On 3 Oct, 15:15, Skipper  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
> Sancho  wrote:
> > "In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd".
> > - Miguel de Cervantes
>
> Your post was certainly an absurd attempt at attaining the impossible.

Still waiting for thou to rebut any of the arguments presented

"And oftentimes excusing of a fault doth make the fault the worse by
the excuse"
- William Shakespeare

In article
,
Sancho  wrote:

> On 3 Oct, 15:15, Skipper  wrote:
> > In article
> > ,
> >
> > Sancho  wrote:
> > > "In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd".
> > > - Miguel de Cervantes
> >
> > Your post was certainly an absurd attempt at attaining the impossible.
> 
> Still waiting for thou to rebut any of the arguments presented
> 
> "And oftentimes excusing of a fault doth make the fault the worse by
> the excuse"
> - William Shakespeare

Keep up the good work, Pancho, quoting Shakespeare instead of
Cervantes. 

Sorry you gave yourself a fool's errand. Now I'm done with you, as
likely are the others who responded. All's well that ends well. Keep
quoting the Bard, you'll learn something.

Very interesting post.  I think (after translating all of his sonnets
into Bengali) that Shakespeare would have wanted to be Cervantes
rather than anyone else, if he really had to be anyone different from
himself!


On Oct 3, 10:16 am, Sancho  wrote:
> "... o somos o no somos"
>
> It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
>
> "... porque o somos o no somos"
> Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> other Latin-based language. The translation is
> "to be or not to be"
> And guess who, of all Spanish writers, could have written such an
> original sentence, that is universally attributed to Shakespeare?
>
> Some time ago I wrote a post on the same subject, "Cervantes y
> Shakespeare eran la misma persona", where I exposed some of the
> similarities between the two authors, that inexplicably seemed to have
> gone largely unnoticed.
>
> Salvador de Madariaga, the Spanish historian and writer pointed out
> that:
> "Hamlet and Don Quixote provide one of the most fascinating parallels
> in literature: possibly because the two poets who created them were
> contemporaries and unknown to each other spoke the same idiom."
> Carlos Fuentes explores also the possibility of both authors being the
> same man,
> "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows
> himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date,
> though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further
> stated that perhaps both were the same man."
> And Francis Carr abounds extensively on this theory, on his book "Who
> Wrote Don Quixote?"
>
> But all of them actually attribute Cervante's works to the hand of
> Shakespeare or even Francis Bacon.
> Any Spanish native speaker will tell you that Don Quixote could have
> never be written by anyone who was not born and grown up in Spain.
> That's why I am convinced that it was the other way around. It was
> Cervantes who wrote all of Shakespeare's plays, because it is also
> evident that the mother tongue of whoever wrote Shakespeare's plays
> was not English.
>
> That's the reason why he was making words up all the time, because his
> actual command of English language was not that good.
> Some examples:
> * Creation of new meanings for words:
> Wherever in your sightless substances ... (sightless meaning
> invisible.)
> * Substitution of adjectives for nouns:
> In the dark backward and abyss of time ... (instead of In the dark and
> backward ...)
> * Grammatical mistakes:
> Yes, you may have seen Cassio and she together ... (instead of Cassio
> and her),
> or Who does me this (instead of Who does this to me),
> or And his more braver daughter could control thee (instead of And his
> braver or And his more brave)
>
> All those mistakes are very common among Spanish native speakers
> trying to express themselves in English.
>
> Shakespeare would also grab whatever word from Spanish that was handy
> and use it if it suited him, similarly to what we do when we speak
> Spanglish.
> There are at least 1,500 different words and phrases that don't appear
> anywhere in the English language prior to Shakespeare, many of them
> literal translations or adaptations from Spanish or from ancient
> languages such as Latin, of which Cervantes had a pretty good
> knowledge.
>
> Shakespeare usually made the verb or the subject the last word of the
> sentence, rather than following the normal word order of English:
> O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I (subject at end)
> or
> Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall (verb at end)
> English does not lend itself to these kind of constructions as much as
> Spanish or Latin.
>
> Most English verbs are one syllable words: be, see, run, take... While
> correr (Spanish), vedere (Latin), essere (Italian), are easier to use
> for rhyming.
> So Shakespeare would use or invent words taken right off these
> languages.
>
> Shakespeare's recorded life is full of empty "gaps", that scholars
> usually refer to as the "Lost Years".
>
> The First Lost Years
> Although no attendance records for the period survive, it is agreed
> that Shakespeare was educated at Stratford.
> Neither there are documented facts about the life of William
> Shakespeare between supposedly leaving school in 1578 and marrying
> Anne Hathaway in 1582
>
> What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> By 1570, Cervantes had enlisted as a soldier in a Castilian infantry
> regiment stationed in Naples, and continued his military life until
> 1575, when his ship was allegedly attacked by Algerian corsairs who
> took him and the surviving passengers to Algiers, where according to
> his own testimony, spent five years as a slave.
> After his release, the following years saw him working for the Spanish
> Crown as a secret agent on foreign lands.
> Sounds like the plot of a novel to me ...
>
> The Second Lost Years
> Between 1582 and 1592 there are only four documented facts about
> William Shakespeare:
> 1- Entries for the Baptism of his children in 1583 and 1585.
> 2- In 1589 a court documents name William Shakespeare and his parents
> in a land dispute.
> 3- In 1592 he is referred to in a very famous pamphlet called the
> "Groatsworth of Wit".
>
> What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> In Toledo, on December 12, 1584, he married the much younger Catalina
> de Salazar.
> During the next 20 years he led a nomadic and unaccountable for
> existence, working on occasions as a purchasing agent for the Spanish
> Armada.
>
> There's no doubt that the plays of William Shakespeare required a
> significant knowledge of Astronomy, Law, Seamanship and Military
> matters, not to mention of Italy where many of his plays are based.
> Because of this irrefutable fact scholars have debated that experience
> of these matters must have been obtained during the Lost Years.
> Cervantes was an expert in all of those subjects and in addition he
> knew Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, Greek, Arab, etc. Not to mention
> law, philosophy, classical literature, ancient and modern history,
> mathematics, astronomy, art, music, medicine, etiquette and manners of
> the nobility and English, French and Italian court life.
>
> Now, I go one step further and ask myself and the world:
> If the "official" Shakespeare couldn't possibly be the author of those
> plays, what writer of that period was capable of achieving the
> literary genius found in Shakespeare's plays, had a significant
> knowledge of Astronomy and the Law, Seamanship and Military matters,
> Etiquette and Manners of the nobility and had lived in Italy long
> enough to be familiar with its culture?
> No one, but Cervantes.
> When I made this affirmation in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare,
> some of the regular posters there even doubted that Cervantes had any
> knowledge of English customs and traditions, leave alone English court
> life, but how do you account for then that Cervantes could have
> written something like "THE SPANISH-ENGLISH LADY" without having been
> to England, more specifically at the Royal Court?
>
> Judge for yourself just by reading these two excerpts from the
> "Novelas Exemplares", first published in 1613, three years before the
> death of Cervantes:
>
> "The preparations for the wedding were all made, the relations and
> friends of the family were invited, and nothing remained but to make
> known the intended match to the Queen, no marriage between persons of
> noble blood being lawful without her knowledge and consent; but making
> no doubt of obtaining the royal licence, they put off applying for it
> to the last. Things being in this state, their joy was disturbed one
> evening by the appearance of one of the Queen's servants with an order
> to Clotald from her Majesty, requiring his appearance before her next
> morning with his Spanish prisoner. He replied that he would cheerfully
> obey her Majesty's command. The messenger retired, and left the family
> in great perturbation; "Alas," said dame Catherine, "what if the Queen
> knows that I have brought up this girl as a Catholic, and thence
> infers that we are all of us Christians in this house! For, if her
> Majesty asks her what she has learned during the eight years she has
> been with us, what answer can she give with all her discretion, poor
> timid girl, that will not condemn us?"
>
> "Richard having at length quitted Isabella, went and told his parents
> that on no account would he marry the Scotch lady until he had first
> been to Rome for the satisfaction of his conscience; and he
> represented the matter in such a light to them and to the relations of
> Clesterna (that was the name of the Scotch lady), that as they were
> all Catholics, they easily assented, and Clesterna was content to
> remain in her father-in-law's house until the return of Richard, who
> proposed to be away a year. This being settled, Clotald told his son
> of his intention to send Isabella and her parents to Spain, if the
> queen gave them leave; perhaps her native air would confirm and
> expedite her incipient recovery. Richard, to avoid betraying his
> secret intentions, desired his father, with seeming indifference, to
> do as he thought best; only he begged him not to take away from
> Isabella any of the presents which the queen had given her. Clotald
> promised this, and the same day he went and asked the queen's leave
> both to marry his son to Clesterna, and to send Isabella and her
> parents to Spain. The queen granted both requests, and without having
> recourse to lawyers or judges, she forthwith passed sentence on the
> lady keeper, condemning her to lose her office, and to pay down ten
> thousand crowns for Isabella. As for Count Ernest, she banished him
> from England for six years."
>
> Not too bad as an insight by a person barely competent in English into
> the customs and traditions of England at that time, I must say ...
>
> It needs to be taken into account that Cervantes was not in any way
> interested in letting the English public know about his authorship for
> obvious reasons.
> Spain and England had been recently at war and the Spanish Armada had
> made a failed attempt at invading England.
> If Shakespeare's plays had bore the name of an Spanish author, they
> would immediately have aroused hostility among critics and the general
> public. If in addition, that Spanish author happened to be a soldier,
> who had served as a spy on foreign lands for the Spanish Crown and as
> a purchasing agent for the Spanish Armada, the chances of keeping his
> head attached to his body ...
>
> read more »

But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than English. 
Which was probably what the royal family then looked like and could have 
looked like later, considering Queen Bloody Mary...and if Elizabeth who came 
after her took to Philip who also came after her, then Shakespeare could 
have looked like the uncle of that Spanglish royal family that never was.

"Arindam Banerjee"  wrote in message 
news:d4aba4ed-cd5b-42e4-9bd6-8f87d1c0f2e3@a19g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Very interesting post.  I think (after translating all of his sonnets
into Bengali) that Shakespeare would have wanted to be Cervantes
rather than anyone else, if he really had to be anyone different from
himself!


On Oct 3, 10:16 am, Sancho  wrote:
> "... o somos o no somos"
>
> It was haunting me since I had recently re-read it, to the point that
> has forced me to write a new post in this blog:
>
> "... porque o somos o no somos"
> Does it sound familiar? Probably not if you don't speak Spanish or any
> other Latin-based language. The translation is
> "to be or not to be"
> And guess who, of all Spanish writers, could have written such an
> original sentence, that is universally attributed to Shakespeare?
>
> Some time ago I wrote a post on the same subject, "Cervantes y
> Shakespeare eran la misma persona", where I exposed some of the
> similarities between the two authors, that inexplicably seemed to have
> gone largely unnoticed.
>
> Salvador de Madariaga, the Spanish historian and writer pointed out
> that:
> "Hamlet and Don Quixote provide one of the most fascinating parallels
> in literature: possibly because the two poets who created them were
> contemporaries and unknown to each other spoke the same idiom."
> Carlos Fuentes explores also the possibility of both authors being the
> same man,
> "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows
> himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date,
> though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further
> stated that perhaps both were the same man."
> And Francis Carr abounds extensively on this theory, on his book "Who
> Wrote Don Quixote?"
>
> But all of them actually attribute Cervante's works to the hand of
> Shakespeare or even Francis Bacon.
> Any Spanish native speaker will tell you that Don Quixote could have
> never be written by anyone who was not born and grown up in Spain.
> That's why I am convinced that it was the other way around. It was
> Cervantes who wrote all of Shakespeare's plays, because it is also
> evident that the mother tongue of whoever wrote Shakespeare's plays
> was not English.
>
> That's the reason why he was making words up all the time, because his
> actual command of English language was not that good.
> Some examples:
> * Creation of new meanings for words:
> Wherever in your sightless substances ... (sightless meaning
> invisible.)
> * Substitution of adjectives for nouns:
> In the dark backward and abyss of time ... (instead of In the dark and
> backward ...)
> * Grammatical mistakes:
> Yes, you may have seen Cassio and she together ... (instead of Cassio
> and her),
> or Who does me this (instead of Who does this to me),
> or And his more braver daughter could control thee (instead of And his
> braver or And his more brave)
>
> All those mistakes are very common among Spanish native speakers
> trying to express themselves in English.
>
> Shakespeare would also grab whatever word from Spanish that was handy
> and use it if it suited him, similarly to what we do when we speak
> Spanglish.
> There are at least 1,500 different words and phrases that don't appear
> anywhere in the English language prior to Shakespeare, many of them
> literal translations or adaptations from Spanish or from ancient
> languages such as Latin, of which Cervantes had a pretty good
> knowledge.
>
> Shakespeare usually made the verb or the subject the last word of the
> sentence, rather than following the normal word order of English:
> O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I (subject at end)
> or
> Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall (verb at end)
> English does not lend itself to these kind of constructions as much as
> Spanish or Latin.
>
> Most English verbs are one syllable words: be, see, run, take... While
> correr (Spanish), vedere (Latin), essere (Italian), are easier to use
> for rhyming.
> So Shakespeare would use or invent words taken right off these
> languages.
>
> Shakespeare's recorded life is full of empty "gaps", that scholars
> usually refer to as the "Lost Years".
>
> The First Lost Years
> Although no attendance records for the period survive, it is agreed
> that Shakespeare was educated at Stratford.
> Neither there are documented facts about the life of William
> Shakespeare between supposedly leaving school in 1578 and marrying
> Anne Hathaway in 1582
>
> What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> By 1570, Cervantes had enlisted as a soldier in a Castilian infantry
> regiment stationed in Naples, and continued his military life until
> 1575, when his ship was allegedly attacked by Algerian corsairs who
> took him and the surviving passengers to Algiers, where according to
> his own testimony, spent five years as a slave.
> After his release, the following years saw him working for the Spanish
> Crown as a secret agent on foreign lands.
> Sounds like the plot of a novel to me ...
>
> The Second Lost Years
> Between 1582 and 1592 there are only four documented facts about
> William Shakespeare:
> 1- Entries for the Baptism of his children in 1583 and 1585.
> 2- In 1589 a court documents name William Shakespeare and his parents
> in a land dispute.
> 3- In 1592 he is referred to in a very famous pamphlet called the
> "Groatsworth of Wit".
>
> What was Cervantes doing during that period?
> In Toledo, on December 12, 1584, he married the much younger Catalina
> de Salazar.
> During the next 20 years he led a nomadic and unaccountable for
> existence, working on occasions as a purchasing agent for the Spanish
> Armada.
>
> There's no doubt that the plays of William Shakespeare required a
> significant knowledge of Astronomy, Law, Seamanship and Military
> matters, not to mention of Italy where many of his plays are based.
> Because of this irrefutable fact scholars have debated that experience
> of these matters must have been obtained during the Lost Years.
> Cervantes was an expert in all of those subjects and in addition he
> knew Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, Greek, Arab, etc. Not to mention
> law, philosophy, classical literature, ancient and modern history,
> mathematics, astronomy, art, music, medicine, etiquette and manners of
> the nobility and English, French and Italian court life.
>
> Now, I go one step further and ask myself and the world:
> If the "official" Shakespeare couldn't possibly be the author of those
> plays, what writer of that period was capable of achieving the
> literary genius found in Shakespeare's plays, had a significant
> knowledge of Astronomy and the Law, Seamanship and Military matters,
> Etiquette and Manners of the nobility and had lived in Italy long
> enough to be familiar with its culture?
> No one, but Cervantes.
> When I made this affirmation in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare,
> some of the regular posters there even doubted that Cervantes had any
> knowledge of English customs and traditions, leave alone English court
> life, but how do you account for then that Cervantes could have
> written something like "THE SPANISH-ENGLISH LADY" without having been
> to England, more specifically at the Royal Court?
>
> Judge for yourself just by reading these two excerpts from the
> "Novelas Exemplares", first published in 1613, three years before the
> death of Cervantes:
>
> "The preparations for the wedding were all made, the relations and
> friends of the family were invited, and nothing remained but to make
> known the intended match to the Queen, no marriage between persons of
> noble blood being lawful without her knowledge and consent; but making
> no doubt of obtaining the royal licence, they put off applying for it
> to the last. Things being in this state, their joy was disturbed one
> evening by the appearance of one of the Queen's servants with an order
> to Clotald from her Majesty, requiring his appearance before her next
> morning with his Spanish prisoner. He replied that he would cheerfully
> obey her Majesty's command. The messenger retired, and left the family
> in great perturbation; "Alas," said dame Catherine, "what if the Queen
> knows that I have brought up this girl as a Catholic, and thence
> infers that we are all of us Christians in this house! For, if her
> Majesty asks her what she has learned during the eight years she has
> been with us, what answer can she give with all her discretion, poor
> timid girl, that will not condemn us?"
>
> "Richard having at length quitted Isabella, went and told his parents
> that on no account would he marry the Scotch lady until he had first
> been to Rome for the satisfaction of his conscience; and he
> represented the matter in such a light to them and to the relations of
> Clesterna (that was the name of the Scotch lady), that as they were
> all Catholics, they easily assented, and Clesterna was content to
> remain in her father-in-law's house until the return of Richard, who
> proposed to be away a year. This being settled, Clotald told his son
> of his intention to send Isabella and her parents to Spain, if the
> queen gave them leave; perhaps her native air would confirm and
> expedite her incipient recovery. Richard, to avoid betraying his
> secret intentions, desired his father, with seeming indifference, to
> do as he thought best; only he begged him not to take away from
> Isabella any of the presents which the queen had given her. Clotald
> promised this, and the same day he went and asked the queen's leave
> both to marry his son to Clesterna, and to send Isabella and her
> parents to Spain. The queen granted both requests, and without having
> recourse to lawyers or judges, she forthwith passed sentence on the
> lady keeper, condemning her to lose her office, and to pay down ten
> thousand crowns for Isabella. As for Count Ernest, she banished him
> from England for six years."
>
> Not too bad as an insight by a person barely competent in English into
> the customs and traditions of England at that time, I must say ...
>
> It needs to be taken into account that Cervantes was not in any way
> interested in letting the English public know about his authorship for
> obvious reasons.
> Spain and England had been recently at war and the Spanish Armada had
> made a failed attempt at invading England.
> If Shakespeare's plays had bore the name of an Spanish author, they
> would immediately have aroused hostility among critics and the general
> public. If in addition, that Spanish author happened to be a soldier,
> who had served as a spy on foreign lands for the Spanish Crown and as
> a purchasing agent for the Spanish Armada, the chances of keeping his
> head attached to his body ...
>
> read more »

Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than English.

Of course it can be denied.  It is easy to deny nonsensical drivel.  And 
  your quoting some 200 lines just to add your inanity gave us a heads-up.

On Oct 8, 2:31 am, Martin Ambuhl  wrote:
> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than English.
>
> Of course it can be denied.

It can be denied, but not convincingly.  William Shakespeare does not
look very English, and I have seen many Englishmen.  He looks more
Spanish than anything else.  Even a cursory look at  English and
Spanish portrait painting makes my point.

> It is easy to deny nonsensical drivel.  

Not when one is composed solely of hot air.

And
>   your quoting some 200 lines just to add your inanity gave us a heads-up.

You seem upset.

Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2:31�am, Martin Ambuhl  wrote:
>> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
>>> But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than English.
>> Of course it can be denied.
> 
> It can be denied, but not convincingly.  William Shakespeare does not
> look very English, and I have seen many Englishmen.  He looks more
> Spanish than anything else.  Even a cursory look at  English and
> Spanish portrait painting makes my point.
> 
But it's not even certain that the one allegedly contemporary painting 
of Shakespeare is really a picture of him - and technically it's not 
very good, so even if it is him the resemblance with the real person may 
not be that great.

REgards, Einde O'Callaghan

"Einde O'Callaghan"  wrote in message 
news:6l2srfFael9kU1@mid.individual.net...
> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
>> On Oct 8, 2:31?am, Martin Ambuhl  wrote:
>>> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
>>>> But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than 
>>>> English.
>>> Of course it can be denied.
>>
>> It can be denied, but not convincingly.  William Shakespeare does not
>> look very English, and I have seen many Englishmen.  He looks more
>> Spanish than anything else.  Even a cursory look at  English and
>> Spanish portrait painting makes my point.
>>
> But it's not even certain that the one allegedly contemporary painting of 
> Shakespeare is really a picture of him - and technically it's not very 
> good, so even if it is him the resemblance with the real person may not be 
> that great.

All very well, but if you take off Cervantes' hair in the painting we may 
see in Wiki, he does look quite a bit like William Shakespeare's portrait, 
ill or phony as it may be.  Not that I am saying that Cervantes went to 
England, met the Poacher of Avon who could barely write the name William 
Shakespear, and with the poacher's full co-operation took over his identity 
with great commercial and literary success for both parties. I am not saying 
this because in one of the sonnets William does write very feelingly about 
the cold in England, and that was something the warm-blooded Spaniard could 
never do.  It would be very satisfying from the despised 
pagan-brown-colonial point of view to think that England's greatest literary 
figure was, heh-heh, actually a Spaniard, but the considerations of truth 
supersede such a vengeful notion.
>
> REgards, Einde O'Callaghan

In article <5r1Hk.4079$sc2.641@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Arindam
Banerjee  wrote:

> "Einde O'Callaghan"  wrote in message 
> news:6l2srfFael9kU1@mid.individual.net...
> > Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> >> On Oct 8, 2:31?am, Martin Ambuhl  wrote:
> >>> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> >>>> But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than 
> >>>> English.
> >>> Of course it can be denied.
> >>
> >> It can be denied, but not convincingly.  William Shakespeare does not
> >> look very English, and I have seen many Englishmen.  He looks more
> >> Spanish than anything else.  Even a cursory look at  English and
> >> Spanish portrait painting makes my point.
> >>
> > But it's not even certain that the one allegedly contemporary painting of 
> > Shakespeare is really a picture of him - and technically it's not very 
> > good, so even if it is him the resemblance with the real person may not be 
> > that great.
> 
> All very well, but if you take off Cervantes' hair in the painting we may 
> see in Wiki, he does look quite a bit like William Shakespeare's portrait, 
> ill or phony as it may be.  Not that I am saying that Cervantes went to 
> England, met the Poacher of Avon who could barely write the name William 
> Shakespear, and with the poacher's full co-operation took over his identity 
> with great commercial and literary success for both parties. I am not saying 
> this because in one of the sonnets William does write very feelingly about 
> the cold in England, and that was something the warm-blooded Spaniard could 
> never do.  It would be very satisfying from the despised 
> pagan-brown-colonial point of view to think that England's greatest literary 
> figure was, heh-heh, actually a Spaniard, but the considerations of truth 
> supersede such a vengeful notion.
> >
> > REgards, Einde O'Callaghan 

Is the "argument" revealed? 

"despised pagan-brown-colonial"

And Shakespeare is merely a "poacher". 

So Othello is a racist play and this thread is about hated white people
including the Bard, that it Banerjee?

On Oct 9, 12:07 am, Skipper  wrote:
> In article <5r1Hk.4079$sc2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Arindam
>
>
>
>
>
> Banerjee  wrote:
> > "Einde O'Callaghan"  wrote in message
> >news:6l2srfFael9kU1@mid.individual.net...
> > > Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > >> On Oct 8, 2:31?am, Martin Ambuhl  wrote:
> > >>> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > >>>> But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than
> > >>>> English.
> > >>> Of course it can be denied.
>
> > >> It can be denied, but not convincingly.  William Shakespeare does not
> > >> look very English, and I have seen many Englishmen.  He looks more
> > >> Spanish than anything else.  Even a cursory look at  English and
> > >> Spanish portrait painting makes my point.
>
> > > But it's not even certain that the one allegedly contemporary painting of
> > > Shakespeare is really a picture of him - and technically it's not very
> > > good, so even if it is him the resemblance with the real person may not be
> > > that great.
>
> > All very well, but if you take off Cervantes' hair in the painting we may
> > see in Wiki, he does look quite a bit like William Shakespeare's portrait,
> > ill or phony as it may be.  Not that I am saying that Cervantes went to
> > England, met the Poacher of Avon who could barely write the name William
> > Shakespear, and with the poacher's full co-operation took over his identity
> > with great commercial and literary success for both parties. I am not saying
> > this because in one of the sonnets William does write very feelingly about
> > the cold in England, and that was something the warm-blooded Spaniard could
> > never do.  It would be very satisfying from the despised
> > pagan-brown-colonial point of view to think that England's greatest literary
> > figure was, heh-heh, actually a Spaniard, but the considerations of truth
> > supersede such a vengeful notion.
>
> > > REgards, Einde O'Callaghan
>
> Is the "argument" revealed?

Hopefully yes, to the superior intelligence.

> "despised pagan-brown-colonial"

associated term: Macaulay.  Do some googling for recent posts in
google groups, using my name.

> And Shakespeare is merely a "poacher".

At the time he may have met Cervantes in some pub in London, he was
not famous for being much more.  Hmm, I sense a play or script here,
the young poacher William meeting the jailbird Miguel, since both were
sort of looking alike then (as William had not lost all his hair) and
becoming very good friends...  No, I do not think he was merely a
poacher.  William Shakespeare of Avon was the William Shakespeare we
know: second-rate poet, and first-rate playwright, who mastered and
transmitted the the very important and necessary knowledge about the
evil, sliminess and opportunism of the human race.  Nature does not
tolerate imbalance, so Cervantes had to be there at the same time, to
talk of hopeless idealism, fun and goodness in the form of Don
Quixote.

> So Othello is a racist play

Heh, I did once publicly wonder how the 19th century Southern White
slaveowing lords could have made of that play.

> and this thread is about hated white people
> including the Bard, that it Banerjee?

No, it is about making the Bard a Spaniard, or not.  The racism angle
is certainly there, but it was initiated by Macaulay and other
influential nineteenth century racist whites.  Against their malign
views, which still influence our time - note the information holocaust
against non-white literary and cultural traditions all over the world
- the reaction continues.

Arindam Banerjee.

In article
,
Arindam Banerjee  wrote:

> On Oct 9, 12:07 am, Skipper  wrote:
> > In article <5r1Hk.4079$sc2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Arindam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Banerjee  wrote:
> > > "Einde O'Callaghan"  wrote in message
> > >news:6l2srfFael9kU1@mid.individual.net...
> > > > Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > > >> On Oct 8, 2:31?am, Martin Ambuhl  wrote:
> > > >>> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > > >>>> But it cannot be denied that Shakespeare looks more Spanish than
> > > >>>> English.
> > > >>> Of course it can be denied.
> >
> > > >> It can be denied, but not convincingly.  William Shakespeare does not
> > > >> look very English, and I have seen many Englishmen.  He looks more
> > > >> Spanish than anything else.  Even a cursory look at  English and
> > > >> Spanish portrait painting makes my point.
> >
> > > > But it's not even certain that the one allegedly contemporary painting
> > > > of
> > > > Shakespeare is really a picture of him - and technically it's not very
> > > > good, so even if it is him the resemblance with the real person may not
> > > > be
> > > > that great.
> >
> > > All very well, but if you take off Cervantes' hair in the painting we may
> > > see in Wiki, he does look quite a bit like William Shakespeare's portrait,
> > > ill or phony as it may be.  Not that I am saying that Cervantes went to
> > > England, met the Poacher of Avon who could barely write the name William
> > > Shakespear, and with the poacher's full co-operation took over his
> > > identity
> > > with great commercial and literary success for both parties. I am not
> > > saying
> > > this because in one of the sonnets William does write very feelingly about
> > > the cold in England, and that was something the warm-blooded Spaniard
> > > could
> > > never do.  It would be very satisfying from the despised
> > > pagan-brown-colonial point of view to think that England's greatest
> > > literary
> > > figure was, heh-heh, actually a Spaniard, but the considerations of truth
> > > supersede such a vengeful notion.
> >
> > > > REgards, Einde O'Callaghan
> >
> > Is the "argument" revealed?
> 
> Hopefully yes, to the superior intelligence.
> 
> > "despised pagan-brown-colonial"
> 
> associated term: Macaulay.  Do some googling for recent posts in
> google groups, using my name.
> 
> > And Shakespeare is merely a "poacher".
> 
> At the time he may have met Cervantes in some pub in London, he was
> not famous for being much more.  Hmm, I sense a play or script here,
> the young poacher William meeting the jailbird Miguel, since both were
> sort of looking alike then (as William had not lost all his hair) and
> becoming very good friends...  No, I do not think he was merely a
> poacher.  William Shakespeare of Avon was the William Shakespeare we
> know: second-rate poet, and first-rate playwright, who mastered and
> transmitted the the very important and necessary knowledge about the
> evil, sliminess and opportunism of the human race.  Nature does not
> tolerate imbalance, so Cervantes had to be there at the same time, to
> talk of hopeless idealism, fun and goodness in the form of Don
> Quixote.
> 
> > So Othello is a racist play
> 
> Heh, I did once publicly wonder how the 19th century Southern White
> slaveowing lords could have made of that play.
> 
> > and this thread is about hated white people
> > including the Bard, that it Banerjee?
> 
> No, it is about making the Bard a Spaniard, or not.  The racism angle
> is certainly there, but it was initiated by Macaulay and other
> influential nineteenth century racist whites.  Against their malign
> views, which still influence our time - note the information holocaust
> against non-white literary and cultural traditions all over the world
> - the reaction continues.
> 
> Arindam Banerjee.

Uh huh. They don't like you because you're black, right? 

LOL

When you have very bad ideas and express them, they don't like you
because you're black... 

What a mentality.

> Uh huh. They don't like you because you're black, right?

The competitive factors are also there.

> LOL

Times are better now, heh-heh.

I had earlier missed these delicious thoughts from Mr Skipper.

> When you have very bad ideas and express them, they don't like you
> because you're black...

What is a very bad idea to some, may be a very good idea to others.
And it so happens, from time to time, that those who once consider an
idea given to them to be very bad, revise their opinion in due
course.  For instance, when the USAn opinion to invade Iraq was
80-90%, my advice against the invasion was considered by almost all to
be a very bad idea.

Problem is, that when you are black, and also not one of us (by not
being a suckup of dependable sort) then any unpleasant idea you put
up, is bound to be rejected.  Now, if the unpleasant idea was in fact
sound, then who is the loser?  Does it really pay, in the long run, to
have a narrow, closed, small bigoted mind?

> What a mentality

Our mutual acquaintance Mr Robert J Maughan did explain his raison for
posting in Usenet - to have fun with the stupids.  The flow from the
stupid mind was denied to me in my social and professional life.
Nature abhors imbalance, so for such as I, Nature created Usenet...

In article
,
Arindam Banerjee  wrote:

> I had earlier missed these delicious thoughts from Mr Skipper.
> 
> > When you have very bad ideas and express them, they don't like you
> > because you're black...
> 
> What is a very bad idea to some, may be a very good idea to others.
> And it so happens, from time to time, that those who once consider an
> idea given to them to be very bad, revise their opinion in due
> course.  For instance, when the USAn opinion to invade Iraq was
> 80-90%, my advice against the invasion was considered by almost all to
> be a very bad idea.
> 
> Problem is, that when you are black, and also not one of us (by not
> being a suckup of dependable sort) then any unpleasant idea you put
> up, is bound to be rejected.  Now, if the unpleasant idea was in fact
> sound, then who is the loser?  Does it really pay, in the long run, to
> have a narrow, closed, small bigoted mind?
> 
> > What a mentality
> 
> Our mutual acquaintance Mr Robert J Maughan did explain his raison for
> posting in Usenet - to have fun with the stupids.  The flow from the
> stupid mind was denied to me in my social and professional life.
> Nature abhors imbalance, so for such as I, Nature created Usenet...

Ah. You're imbalanced so Nature created that for you. OK.

On Oct 17, 12:54 am, Skipper  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
>
>
>
>
> Arindam Banerjee  wrote:
> > I had earlier missed these delicious thoughts from Mr Skipper.
>
> > > When you have very bad ideas and express them, they don't like you
> > > because you're black...
>
> > What is a very bad idea to some, may be a very good idea to others.
> > And it so happens, from time to time, that those who once consider an
> > idea given to them to be very bad, revise their opinion in due
> > course.  For instance, when the USAn opinion to invade Iraq was
> > 80-90%, my advice against the invasion was considered by almost all to
> > be a very bad idea.
>
> > Problem is, that when you are black, and also not one of us (by not
> > being a suckup of dependable sort) then any unpleasant idea you put
> > up, is bound to be rejected.  Now, if the unpleasant idea was in fact
> > sound, then who is the loser?  Does it really pay, in the long run, to
> > have a narrow, closed, small bigoted mind?
>
> > > What a mentality
>
> > Our mutual acquaintance Mr Robert J Maughan did explain his raison for
> > posting in Usenet - to have fun with the stupids.  The flow from the
> > stupid mind was denied to me in my social and professional life.
> > Nature abhors imbalance, so for such as I, Nature created Usenet...
>
> Ah. You're imbalanced so Nature created that for you. OK.

Yes, yes, and lots of thanks for playing.


- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

X-No-Archive: yes

In message <021020081759375844%skipSPAMpress@yahoo.not>, Skipper 
 writes

>Much ado about nothing.

Indeed. Top-posting an inane comment above an untrimmed repost is just 
that.

-- 
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:17:37 +0000, james 
wrote:

>X-No-Archive: yes
>
>In message <021020081759375844%skipSPAMpress@yahoo.not>, Skipper 
> writes
>
>>Much ado about nothing.
>
>Indeed. Top-posting an inane comment above an untrimmed repost is just 
>that.

Cross-posting the comment to four newsgroups is also crackers.
-- 

Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland