Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:

My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
online at
http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

This survey differs from my previous Harvard and UWM surveys in a few
important ways:

1. It maps the responses using the google maps engine, which allows
for
interactive manipulation of the maps: zooming in, moving across the
globe,
and so on.

2. It has a more manageable number of questions (31).

3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
worldwide, not just in the United States.

Currently the maps plot 50,000 responses from the United States, but
once I
have sufficient responses from the rest of the world I will generate
new maps.

I hope you will consider taking the survey and asking your friends and
students to as well.

Thanks,

Bert Vaux
University of Cambridge

On Oct 20, 7:38 am, bertv...@gmail.com wrote:
...
> Currently the maps plot 50,000 responses from the United States, but
> once I
> have sufficient responses from the rest of the world I will generate
> new maps.


Are the maps unavailable / secret? Or is a look at them strictly
reserved to mother-tongue speakers?

Bert Vaux wrote...

> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of 
> English
> worldwide, not just in the United States.

Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to 
relate to purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author 
will consider a similar geographical survey of quirks in British 
English - "What is your normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance? 
Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a 
variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
-- 
Noel

"Ildhund"  wrote in message 
news:ffdg18$anj$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Bert Vaux wrote...
>
>> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
>> worldwide, not just in the United States.
>
> Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to relate to 
> purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author will consider a 
> similar geographical survey of quirks in British English - "What is your 
> normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance? Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does 
> your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 
> 'stone' or 'boon'?"

Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes ginnel and 
snicket. But no distinction is made between British _regional_ and _social_ 
dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any allowance for social context 
e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the same person may use "loo" or 
"toilet" or "gents" etc depending on whom he is addressing and on what 
occasion).

Alan Jones

Alan Jones wrote:
> "Ildhund"  wrote in message
> news:ffdg18$anj$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Bert Vaux wrote...
>>
>>> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
>>> worldwide, not just in the United States.
>>
>> Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to
>> relate to purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author
>> will consider a similar geographical survey of quirks in British
>> English - "What is your normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance?
>> Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a
>> variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
>
> Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes
> ginnel and snicket. But no distinction is made between British
> _regional_ and _social_ dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any
> allowance for social context e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the
> same person may use "loo" or "toilet" or "gents" etc depending on
> whom he is addressing and on what occasion).

The fallacy is in the subject line - this is noth to do with dialects.
-- 
John Briggs

"Alan Jones" wrote: 
> "Ildhund" wrote
>> Bert Vaux wrote...
>>
>>> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
>>> worldwide, not just in the United States.
>>
>> Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to
>> relate to purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author
>> will consider a similar geographical survey of quirks in British
>> English - "What is your normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance?
>> Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a
>> variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
> 
> Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes ginnel
> and snicket. But no distinction is made between British _regional_ and
> _social_ dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any allowance for
> social context e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the same person
> may use "loo" or "toilet" or "gents" etc depending on whom he is
> addressing and on what occasion).


He's got two ways for you to deal with that sort of circumstance: the 
Comments field is a place for you to add information that isn't included in 
the answers as they stand, and this iteration of the survey has been 
changed from "Choose one answer only" to "Mark all that apply".

wrote in message 
news:1192891137.795547.3920@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
>
> My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
> online at
> http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
>
> This survey differs from my previous Harvard and UWM surveys in a few
> important ways:
>
> 1. It maps the responses using the google maps engine, which allows
> for
> interactive manipulation of the maps: zooming in, moving across the
> globe,
> and so on.
>
> 2. It has a more manageable number of questions (31).
>
> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
> worldwide, not just in the United States.
>
> Currently the maps plot 50,000 responses from the United States, but
> once I
> have sufficient responses from the rest of the world I will generate
> new maps.
>
> I hope you will consider taking the survey and asking your friends and
> students to as well.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bert Vaux
> University of Cambridge

Are you at all concerned that, although you appear to be getting a rather 
broad regional response, you are nevertheless relying on the participation 
of a rather narrowly defined socio-economic group (i.e. on-line computer 
users who either frequent newsgroups or have been referred to your survey by 
those who do frequent newsgroups)? I would think that such a narrowly 
defined group of respondents could not necessarily be relied upon to provide 
an accurate representation of the regions in which they may have formed 
their speech habits.
--
alan

bertvaux@gmail.com schrieb:
> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
> 
> My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
> online at
> http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
> 
In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so 
because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee 
youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland, 
where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the 
cities of Dublin and Cork.

Of course the designers of this survey may not be interested in input 
from people of Irish origin (the currrent population of the republic is 
under 4 million - a minute percentage of the number of native english 
speakers), but since this group has provided a disproportionately high 
number of leading writers of English I would regard this as being a bit 
shortsighted.

All in all a badly designed survey - badly designed since it doesn't 
allow all speakers of English to participate.

BTW Ireland isn't the only English-speaking country not to use post 
codes - as far as I can see they are rare to non-existent in the West 
Indies, another area where native English speakers are not unknown.

Einde O'Callaghan

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:38:57 -0000, bertvaux@gmail.com wrote:

>Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
>
>My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
>online at
>http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle?    Even though both
are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM  :-)

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Alan Jones wrote:
> "Ildhund"  wrote
>> Bert Vaux wrote...

>>> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
>>> worldwide, not just in the United States.

>> Designed badly, then, in my view. Most of the questions seem to relate to
>> purely American linguistic oddities. I do hope the author will consider a
>> similar geographical survey of quirks in British English - "What is your
>> normal greeting on meeting an acquaintance? Hello, Na'then, Eyup" or "Does
>> your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with 'gone' or
>> 'stone' or 'boon'?"

> Not entirely fair, I think - e.g. the "alley" question includes ginnel and
> snicket. But no distinction is made between British _regional_ and _social_
> dialects e.g. the "dinner" question, nor any allowance for social context
> e.g. the "public lavatory" question (the same person may use "loo" or
> "toilet" or "gents" etc depending on whom he is addressing and on what
> occasion).

Looks to me, and the data presented on a US map also suggests this, that
it is a survey originally used to find out about American English usages,
but which has been extended to find usage elesewhere. The questions asked
are ones where there is a particular variety of usages in the US, although
British terminology has been added.

The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Matthew Huntbach

On 20 Oct, 15:38, bertv...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
>
> My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
> online athttp://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
>
> This survey differs from my previous Harvard and UWM surveys in a few
> important ways:
>
> 1. It maps the responses using the google maps engine, which allows
> for
> interactive manipulation of the maps: zooming in, moving across the
> globe,
> and so on.
>
> 2. It has a more manageable number of questions (31).
>
> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
> worldwide, not just in the United States.
>

How good of you to remember us.
DC

In article <ffdg18$anj$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Ildhund  wrote:
> "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
> 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"

To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.

Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
it pronounced scoon.

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Matthew Huntbach"  wrote in message 
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0710221011200.686@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk...

>
> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
> listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not 
> given.
>

You need to look more carefully; it is there.

-- 
Ray
UK


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, mUs1Ka wrote:
> "Matthew Huntbach"  wrote in message

>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
>> listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not
>> given.

> You need to look more carefully; it is there.

No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father
came from the twitchell-speaking part of England. I think it was a source
of some amusement between my father and mother than they both had dialect
words for the thing, which were similar but different. Plus we were brought
up in a house which had a twitten/twitchell close by, so it was a term in
common use.

Matthew Huntbach

In article ,
Matthew Huntbach   wrote:
>
>No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father

Twitten was there when I did the survey a couple of hours ago.  Maybe words are
being added as people report them?

Katy

"Matthew Huntbach"  wrote in message 
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0710221334400.15970@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk...
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, mUs1Ka wrote:
>> "Matthew Huntbach"  wrote in message
>
>>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred 
>>> answer
>>> listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not
>>> given.
>
>> You need to look more carefully; it is there.
>
> No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father
> came from the twitchell-speaking part of England. I think it was a source
> of some amusement between my father and mother than they both had dialect
> words for the thing, which were similar but different. Plus we were 
> brought
> up in a house which had a twitten/twitchell close by, so it was a term in
> common use.
>

Both twitten and twitchell were possibilities in the survey that I took.

-- 
Ray
UK


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, K. Edgcombe wrote:
> In article ,
> Matthew Huntbach   wrote:

>> No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my father

> Twitten was there when I did the survey a couple of hours ago.  Maybe words are
> being added as people report them?

Maybe so, that would also mean as more non-USAnians use it, it would lose
its AmE bias. Perhaps we should have been toldthis.

Matthew Huntbach

"Tony Mountifield"  wrote in message 
news:ffht8c$c4a$1@softins.clara.co.uk...
> In article <ffdg18$anj$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Ildhund  wrote:
>> "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
>> 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
>
> To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
> pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.
>
> Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
> it pronounced scoon.

I seem to remember that "scoon" is the proper pronunciation of the Scottish 
place-name "Scone". The bun is "scon" for me now, but the "stone" version 
was what I heard as a child.

Alan Jones

Alan Jones wrote:
> "Tony Mountifield"  wrote in
> message news:ffht8c$c4a$1@softins.clara.co.uk...
>> In article <ffdg18$anj$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> Ildhund  wrote:
>>> "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun]
>>> rhyme with 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
>>
>> To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the
>> similar pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken
>> more to 'con'. Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'.
>> I've never heard it pronounced scoon.
>
> I seem to remember that "scoon" is the proper
> pronunciation of the Scottish place-name "Scone". The bun
> is "scon" for me now, but the "stone" version was what I
> heard as a child.


From some time in the 1950s:

How to Get On in Society
John Betjeman

Phone for the fish-knives, Norman
As Cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.
Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.
It's ever so close in the lounge, dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is out riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me.
Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know what I wanted to ask you -- 
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?
Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, mUs1Ka wrote:
>> "Matthew Huntbach"  wrote in message
>
>>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
>>> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
>>> "twitten", was not given.
>
>> You need to look more carefully; it is there.
>
> No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my
> father came from the twitchell-speaking part of England. I think it
> was a source of some amusement between my father and mother than they
> both had dialect words for the thing, which were similar but
> different. Plus we were brought up in a house which had a
> twitten/twitchell close by, so it was a term in common use.

There is a famous booklet on the snickelways of York - snickelway being a 
portmanteau word for snicket, ginnel and alleyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickelways_of_York
-- 
John Briggs

Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
> bertvaux@gmail.com schrieb:
> 
>> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
>>
>> My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
>> online at
>> http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
>>
> In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so 
> because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee 
> youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland, 
> where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the 
> cities of Dublin and Cork.
> 
> Of course the designers of this survey may not be interested in input 
> from people of Irish origin (the currrent population of the republic is 
> under 4 million - a minute percentage of the number of native english 
> speakers), but since this group has provided a disproportionately high 
> number of leading writers of English I would regard this as being a bit 
> shortsighted.
> 
> All in all a badly designed survey - badly designed since it doesn't 
> allow all speakers of English to participate.
> 
> BTW Ireland isn't the only English-speaking country not to use post 
> codes - as far as I can see they are rare to non-existent in the West 
> Indies, another area where native English speakers are not unknown.
> 

I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some of 
the mandatory information. The opening form has a check box for "My 
parents are native speakers of English" but doesn't allow for my 
situation: my father was a native speaker, but my mother was not.

Fran

Frances Kemmish wrote...
> I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some 
> of the mandatory information.

My initial attempt was rejected because I had failed to submit an 
answer to Q15 ('blah'). None of the preprogrammed responses applied, 
as I wrote in a comment.
-- 
Noel

Tony Mountifield wrote...
> Ildhund  wrote:
>> "Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
>> 'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
>
> To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
> pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.
>
As in "'E been 'n' gawn 'n' dunnit"? Sorry, bad choice of possible 
rhyme on my part.
-- 
Noel

Father Ignatius wrote...
> How to Get On in Society
> John Betjeman
>
> Phone for the fish-knives, Norman
> As Cook is a little unnerved;
> You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
> And I must have things daintily served.
> Are the requisites all in the toilet?
> The frills round the cutlets can wait
> Till the girl has replenished the cruets
> And switched on the logs in the grate.
> It's ever so close in the lounge, dear,
> But the vestibule's comfy for tea
> And Howard is out riding on horseback
> So do come and take some with me.
> Now here is a fork for your pastries
> And do use the couch for your feet;
> I know what I wanted to ask you -- 
> Is trifle sufficient for sweet?
> Milk and then just as it comes dear?
> I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
> Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
> With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.
>

Ah, yes, I remember it well. This sounds just like my mother, who 
even looked like Hyacinth Bucket.
-- 
Noel

Tony Mountifield schrieb:
> In article <ffdg18$anj$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Ildhund  wrote:
> 
>>"Does your pronunciation of 'scone' [a variety of bun] rhyme with
>>'gone' or 'stone' or 'boon'?"
> 
> 
> To my ears, 'gone' has a longer vowel sound than the similar
> pronunciation of 'scone', which I would liken more to 'con'.
> 
> Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
> it pronounced scoon.
> 
I always thought this was only the pronunciation of the stone under the 
coronation chair/throne.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Ildhund wrote:
> Frances Kemmish wrote...
>> I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some
>> of the mandatory information.
>
> My initial attempt was rejected because I had failed to submit an
> answer to Q15 ('blah'). None of the preprogrammed responses applied,
> as I wrote in a comment.

Same problem with Q15 for me.
Also couldn't set country to England and State to United Kingdom, only vice 
versa!

In article ,
 mm  wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:38:57 -0000, bertvaux@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
> >
> >My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
> >online at
> >http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
> 
> Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle?    Even though both
> are common in New Jersey, they're very different.

I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that 
question. I'd never seen "jug handle" in such a context before, though: 
is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?

-- 
Odysseus

On Oct 23, 5:30 am, Odysseus  wrote:
> In article ,
>
>  mm  wrote:
> > On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:38:57 -0000, bertv...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle?    Even though both
> > are common in New Jersey, they're very different.
>
> I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
> question. I'd never seen "jug handle" in such a context before, though:
> is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?

Those are pretty different, too. A cloverleaf is a connector where you
go 270 degrees to the right in order to end up going 90 degrees left
(from one superhighway to another intersecting superhighway.

A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
allowing safer U-turns).

The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
road won't have them).

Mitch

On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
> listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.

Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
called (pick your dialect)?

Mitch

In article ,
Mitch   wrote:
> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
> > The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
> > listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.
> 
> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
> a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
> between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
> back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
> walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
> might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
> buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
> called (pick your dialect)?

A passage or passageway?

In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Tony Mountifield wrote:
> In article ,
> Mitch   wrote:
>> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
>>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
>>> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
>>> "twitten", was not given.
>>
>> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
>> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
>> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
>> not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
>> place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
>> back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
>> a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
>> might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
>> buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
>> called (pick your dialect)?
>
> A passage or passageway?
>
> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
> alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

That's because they were built before cars were invented...
-- 
John Briggs

Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Alan Jones wrote:
>> "Ildhund"  wrote
>>> Bert Vaux wrote...
>
>>>> 3. The questions are designed to be relevant to speakers of English
>>>> worldwide, not just in the United States.

> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten",
> was not given.

Nice word. You can see the 'two/twain/(be)tween in there. I also noticed
there was a 'vennel' in there, and English word I didn't know existed
but I do know the French one 'venelle' which means much the same thing
and, in fact, there is a town nearby called 'Venelles' no doubt because
of its narrow streets.

Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, K. Edgcombe wrote:
>> In article ,
>> Matthew Huntbach   wrote:
>
>>> No, "twitchell" is there, "twitten" is not. I know both, since my
>>> father
>
>> Twitten was there when I did the survey a couple of hours ago. Maybe
>> words are being added as people report them?
>
> Maybe so, that would also mean as more non-USAnians use it, it would
> lose its AmE bias. Perhaps we should have been toldthis.

I've just done it. Twitten is there

*alan* wrote:
>  wrote in message
> news:1192891137.795547.3920@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
>>
>> My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
>> online at
>> http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

> Are you at all concerned that, although you appear to be getting a
> rather broad regional response, you are nevertheless relying on the
> participation of a rather narrowly defined socio-economic group (i.e.
> on-line computer users who either frequent newsgroups or have been
> referred to your survey by those who do frequent newsgroups)? I would
> think that such a narrowly defined group of respondents could not
> necessarily be relied upon to provide an accurate representation of
> the regions in which they may have formed their speech habits.

In fact the questionnaire did not enquire as to where one learn one's 
language, just the current whereabouts, which was rather silly of it 
IMO. I live in France and have done for a fair bit more than half my 
life, but that isn't where I learnt my English.

Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
> bertvaux@gmail.com schrieb:
>> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
>>
>> My new online survey of world English varieties is now available
>> online at
>> http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
>>
> In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so
> because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee
> youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland,
> where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the
> cities of Dublin and Cork.

Make one up, as I did with my e-mail address and name. The form doesn't 
seem to mind it is simply programmed to require that certain boxes be 
filled in.

Ildhund wrote:
> Frances Kemmish wrote...
>> I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some
>> of the mandatory information.
>
> My initial attempt was rejected because I had failed to submit an
> answer to Q15 ('blah'). None of the preprogrammed responses applied,
> as I wrote in a comment.

Me too, so finally I filled in 'none apply' and referred them to my 
comments

Mitch wrote:

> A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
> 1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
> The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
> drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
> allowing safer U-turns).

So that they're 90° to the flow of traffic they've left (and want to 
cross) is that it?

Sensible idea if it is.

Tony Mountifield wrote:
> In article ,
> Mitch   wrote:
>> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
>>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
>>> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
>>> "twitten", was not given.
>>
>> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
>> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
>> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
>> not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
>> place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
>> back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
>> a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
>> might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
>> buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
>> called (pick your dialect)?
>
> A passage or passageway?
>
> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
> alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
>
In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
"bully").

-- 
Mike.



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:33:04 -0000, Mitch  wrote:

>On Oct 23, 5:30 am, Odysseus  wrote:
>> In article ,
>>
>>  mm  wrote:
>> > On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:38:57 -0000, bertv...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle?    Even though both
>> > are common in New Jersey, they're very different.
>>
>> I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
>> question. I'd never seen "jug handle" in such a context before, though:
>> is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?
>
>Those are pretty different, too. A cloverleaf is a connector where you
>go 270 degrees to the right in order to end up going 90 degrees left
>(from one superhighway to another intersecting superhighway.
>
>A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
>1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
>The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
>drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
>allowing safer U-turns).
>
>The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
>direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
>situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
>road won't have them).

Right.  To have my turn, they use jug handles where there is no room
for a center left turn lane.   And where they don't want to take the
time awway from the highway to have a green for the cross traffic and
a different green for a left turn lane.  And where there is that minor
highway (And Route 1 is a prime example, though I saw them in one
other plade in New Jersey also.) and they want that to have green
lights 90% of the time.

But there are usually minor cross-streets and sometimes they can
squeeze the jug handle in the parking lot that already exists on busy
highways, but other times I'm sure they condemn and remove the
building on the right just before the cross-street  Then the right
hand lane of the highway swerves off to the right and joins up with
the cross street, several car lengths away from the highway.  So that
cars can wait there until their light turns green.  

It's pretty simple, but I didn't think of it.  In fact I didn't even
get it the first time or two I saw the sign for one.  I'm still
driving, trying to figure out how to turn left.

They aren't labeled with a word, only a drawing, so you have to learn
what they're called.  

In Baltimore the traffic reports refer to the "triple bridges" and I
lived her for 3 or 4 years before I figured out what they were, and
that I drove underneath them 5 or 10 times a week! (An interstate and
2 layers of elevated ramp, one above the other) I also thought the JFX
was the John F. Kennedy eXpressway, which is a name on the map, but
they all call it I-95.  It turned out, after several years, that the
JFX was the Jones Falls eXpressway.

>Mitch


If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM  :-)

In article <wsqTi.23105$z05.19927@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>,
John Briggs  wrote:
> Tony Mountifield wrote:
> > In article ,
> > Mitch   wrote:
> >> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
> >>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
> >>> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
> >>> "twitten", was not given.
> >>
> >> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
> >> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
> >> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
> >> not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
> >> place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
> >> back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
> >> a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
> >> might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
> >> buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
> >> called (pick your dialect)?
> >
> > A passage or passageway?
> >
> > In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
> > alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
> 
> That's because they were built before cars were invented...

Yes, but my point was that if they were wide enough for cars, I doubt
that Brits would call them alleys.

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

John of Aix wrote...
> In fact the questionnaire did not enquire as to where one learn 
> one's language, just the current whereabouts, which was rather 
> silly of it IMO.

Copied from the page where one registers:
"In order to map our results accurately, we need to know where you 
acquired your dialect features. This usually (but not always) means 
that you should enter the information below based on where you were 
raised."

Regardless of that wildly irritating, yet increasingly prevalent, 
misuse of 'based on', and accepting 'raised' as possibly being an 
AmE synonym for 'brought up', this seems to indicate that you may 
have misunderstood something. I had no idea what the postcode is
for the place where I was 'raised', because postcodes hadn't been 
invented before I left. I had to look it up on Multimap.
-- 
Noel

Tony Mountifield wrote:
> In article <wsqTi.23105$z05.19927@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>,
> John Briggs  wrote:
>> Tony Mountifield wrote:
>>> In article ,
>>> Mitch   wrote:
>>>> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
>>>>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
>>>>> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
>>>>> "twitten", was not given.
>>>>
>>>> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can
>>>> go on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car
>>>> can't go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't
>>>> know. It's not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say '
>>>> you know, the place between too buildings, the walkway that you
>>>> take to get to the back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway
>>>> but I don't -call- it a walkway). It might even have a gate/not
>>>> easily opened barrier, and might not even be walkable, but is
>>>> nevertheless a gap between two buildings, wide enough for a person
>>>> to walk through. What is -that- called (pick your dialect)?
>>>
>>> A passage or passageway?
>>>
>>> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
>>> here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
>>
>> That's because they were built before cars were invented...
>
> Yes, but my point was that if they were wide enough for cars, I doubt
> that Brits would call them alleys.

It rather looks as if the word always designated a footway connecting two 
streets.  "Passage" fulfilled the same function, but could probably take 
traffic.  "Yard" or "Court" were closed, but could take vehicles.
-- 
John Briggs

In article ,
 Mitch  wrote:

<snip>

> The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
> direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
> situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
> road won't have them).

I think of "a cloverleaf" as the full set: four spiral ramps for left 
turns, enclosed by four diagonal ramps for right turns.

-- 
Odysseus

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:35:11 GMT, Odysseus
 wrote:

>In article ,
> Mitch  wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
>> direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
>> situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
>> road won't have them).
>
>I think of "a cloverleaf" as the full set: four spiral ramps for left 
>turns, enclosed by four diagonal ramps for right turns.

That was later.  Somehow the early drawings of cloverleafs didn't have
the ramps for right turns.  I guess everyone had to turn left three
times. :) 

If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM  :-)

Mike Lyle wrote:
>>>Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
>>>on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
>>>go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... 
>>In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
>>alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
> In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
> "bully").

In Scotland we have closes (as in Edinburgh, off the Royal Mile, 
although some of them are vehicular), vennels, and pends.

Owain

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Alan Jones wrote:
> "Tony Mountifield"  wrote in message

>> Having said that, I say 'scone' to rhyme with 'stone'. I've never heard
>> it pronounced scoon.

> I seem to remember that "scoon" is the proper pronunciation of the Scottish
> place-name "Scone". The bun is "scon" for me now, but the "stone" version
> was what I heard as a child.

Same here - does this mean the "stone" version is dying out, I don't remember
hearing it at all since I was young, and I'd feel too self-conscious to
use it now.

BTW, I would NOT classify a "scone" as a "bun". But we've been through this
before - others seem to use "bun" for a much wider category of things than
I do. I'd say a bun has to be both sweet and made of dough.

Matthew Huntbach

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, John Briggs wrote:
> Tony Mountifield wrote:
>> In article ,
>> Mitch   wrote:
>>> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:

>>>> The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred
>>>> answer listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this,
>>>> "twitten", was not given.

>>> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
>>> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
>>> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's
>>> not a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the
>>> place between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
>>> back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it
>>> a walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
>>> might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
>>> buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
>>> called (pick your dialect)?

>> A passage or passageway?
>>
>> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
>> alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

> That's because they were built before cars were invented...

When I was young, I'd call it a "twitten" - that's what we used the
word for "the place between two buildings, not wide enough to take
a car". The archetypal twitten to me was a paved footway which went between
two blocks on our council estate, we often had to refer to this when
I was young as it was almost next to us, and it was just "the twitten".
It was built after cars were invented. I think an "alley" too refers
to a narrow passage - it wouldn't be an "alley" if cars could fit down it.

BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

Matthew Huntbach

In news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0710241002320.1275@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk,
Matthew Huntbach  a écrit:

> BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

It's like Linford Christie's lunchbox, only [even] bigger.

Matthew Huntbach  het geskryf:


> When I was young, I'd call it a "twitten" - that's what
> we used the word for "the place between two buildings, not wide
> enough to take a car".

_The Full Monty_ has the Sheffield term "jennel".

(Also, irrelevantly, "nesh": unusually susceptible to cold.)

On Oct 23, 12:08 pm, t...@softins.clara.co.uk (Tony Mountifield)
wrote:
> In article ,
>
> Mitch   wrote:
> > On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
> > > The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
> > > listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.
>
> > Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
> > on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
> > go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
> > a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
> > between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
> > back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
> > walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
> > might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
> > buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
> > called (pick your dialect)?
>
> A passage or passageway?

To me (AmE) those certainly sound better, but somehow a little
generic. But maybe that's all there is in AmE.


> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
> alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

Mitch

On Oct 24, 5:08 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
> BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.

Large metal/plastic waste receptacle. Obstacles (next to discarded
pallets and empty cardboard boxes) in car chase scenes down 'alleys'.

Mitch

Father Ignatius wrote:
> In news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0710241002320.1275@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk,
> Matthew Huntbach  a écrit:
>
>> BTW, I don't know what a "dumpster" is.
>
> It's like Linford Christie's lunchbox, only [even] bigger.

A skip, Matthew. I'm often the last to notice changes in fashion, so
perhaps everybody else has already got blasé about folding skips made of
tough plastic clothy stuff. I've only this week seen my first. I didn't
find a picture, but for some unknown reason one of those Ggl Images
offered me was this irrelevancy (not for the office):
http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/amputeelove.png

-- 
Mike.



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article ,
   Mitch  wrote:
> On Oct 23, 12:08 pm, t...@softins.clara.co.uk (Tony Mountifield)
> wrote:

> > In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
> > here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.

> In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

My, but you Yanks sure are lazy when it come to going bowling!

-- 
New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/

"Mike Lyle"  wrote in message 
news:471e5582$0$26470$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Tony Mountifield wrote:
[...]

>> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
>> alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
>>
> In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
> "bully").

Ah. That may explain something that's puzzled me for almost seventy years. A 
sort of alleyway ran from our back gate down to the village High Street: it 
was too narrow, as I recall, for two adults to walk comfortably side by 
side, and the ground was simply dirt - no kind of paving at all. On one side 
was the low tumble-down wall of the doctor's paddock, on the other a tallish 
hedge flanking our field. We called this alleyway "The Gully", which I heard 
for years as "Gullet", thinking there was some allusion to one's throat. As 
our native "u" was the Northern "oo", "gully" indeed rhymed with "bully". 
And this was in Shropshire, only a short distance from Wales.

But NSOED derives "gully" or "gulley", with various meanings including of 
course a ravine worn into a mountainside by water, from the French for 
"throat", and gives as a dialectal sense of "gullet" "a narrow passage".

So was my childhood "gully" Welsh or French?

Alan Jones

In article ,
Mitch   wrote:
> On Oct 23, 12:08 pm, t...@softins.clara.co.uk (Tony Mountifield)
> wrote:
> > In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
> > alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
> 
> In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.

Which brings to mind another AmE/BrE difference. If something is
particularly appropriate or of interest to someone, we say it is
"right up their street", but I believe AmE would say "right up
their alley".

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Alan Jones wrote:
> "Mike Lyle"  wrote in message
> news:471e5582$0$26470$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> Tony Mountifield wrote:
> [...]
>
>>> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
>>> here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
>>>
>> In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
>> "bully").
>
> Ah. That may explain something that's puzzled me for almost seventy
> years. A sort of alleyway ran from our back gate down to the village
> High Street: it was too narrow, as I recall, for two adults to walk
> comfortably side by side, and the ground was simply dirt - no kind of
> paving at all. On one side was the low tumble-down wall of the
> doctor's paddock, on the other a tallish hedge flanking our field. We
> called this alleyway "The Gully", which I heard for years as
> "Gullet", thinking there was some allusion to one's throat. As our
> native "u" was the Northern "oo", "gully" indeed rhymed with "bully".
> And this was in Shropshire, only a short distance from Wales.
>
> But NSOED derives "gully" or "gulley", with various meanings
> including of course a ravine worn into a mountainside by water, from
> the French for "throat", and gives as a dialectal sense of "gullet"
> "a narrow passage".
>
> So was my childhood "gully" Welsh or French?

Hmm. It's not at all impossible that the Welsh is actually ad. the
English word, ad. the French. No help from OED.

-- 
Mike.



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

John Briggs wrote:
(Snip)
> 
> It rather looks as if the word always designated a footway connecting two 
> streets.  "Passage" fulfilled the same function, but could probably take 
> traffic.  "Yard" or "Court" were closed, but could take vehicles.

I'm sure that in Newcastle-under-Lyme it was/is called it an "entry" -- 
even if it was an alley, whether dead-end or through to another street.

Cheers, Sage

Owain wrote:
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>>>> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
>>>> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
>>>> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... 
>>> In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
>>> alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
>> In South Wales, it's a gwyli (but I've only heard it rhyming with
>> "bully").
> 
> In Scotland we have closes (as in Edinburgh, off the Royal Mile, 
> although some of them are vehicular), vennels, and pends.
> 
> Owain
> 
> 
  The other day, I saw that UK TV programme where people make a bid on 
one of three properties. It was set in Edinburgh and one of the 
properties was in a tenement (Not the same as a US tenement, as has been 
discussed here before).

The presenter, Alice Beer (I think is her name) asked the estate 
agent/"expert witness" what could be done to cheer up the foyer and the 
ea/ew cautioned her that it should be referred to as "the close". That 
surprised me because I thought the close was the courtyard around which 
the tenement was built.

Cheers, Sage

Bert Vaux:
>>> http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.

Einde O'Callaghan:
>> In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so 
>> because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee 
>> youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland, 
>> where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the 
>> cities of Dublin and Cork.

I wonder how many cities there are where Bert is going to get meaningful
data distinguishing dialects of different parts of the city.  Asking for
a postal code seems way too specific.

Fran Kemmish writes:
> I didn't participate in the survey as I was not able to enter some of 
> the mandatory information. The opening form has a check box for "My 
> parents are native speakers of English" but doesn't allow for my 
> situation: my father was a native speaker, but my mother was not.

That would just be a "no", wouldn't it?  Still a bad design, because
one of the two possible answers is entered by default.

*I* didn't participate in the survey because the password I'd just
supplied to it didn't work.  I *almost* didn't participate because
it requires registration, and my practice is to never register with
web sites; but I'm willing to make an occasional exception for bona
fide university research.  However, after I filled in the form, my
password didn't work.  Perhaps this was because, since I was never
going to use it again, I entered something 30 characters long.
I tried changing it by returning to the registration form, but it
said I was already registered and wouldn't let me.
-- 
Mark Brader   |   "Ooh, righteous indignation -- a bold choice!
Toronto       |    I myself would start with dismay and *work my way up*
msb@vex.net   |    to righteous indignation."    --Murphy Brown

My text in this article is in the public domain.

David wrote:

> In article ,
>    Mitch  wrote:
>> On Oct 23, 12:08 pm, t...@softins.clara.co.uk (Tony Mountifield)
>> wrote:
> 
>> > In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over
>> > here, alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
> 
>> In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.
> 
> My, but you Yanks sure are lazy when it come to going bowling!

Yeah, but it sure knocks the good ol' American shock 'n' awe into the pins,
innit.

-- 
Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food. 

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

sage wrote:
> Owain wrote:
>> In Scotland we have closes (as in Edinburgh, off the Royal Mile, 
>> although some of them are vehicular), vennels, and pends.
>  The other day, I saw that UK TV programme where people make a bid on 
> one of three properties. It was set in Edinburgh and one of the 
> properties was in a tenement (Not the same as a US tenement, as has been 
> discussed here before).
> The presenter, Alice Beer (I think is her name) asked the estate 
> agent/"expert witness" what could be done to cheer up the foyer and the 
> ea/ew cautioned her that it should be referred to as "the close". That 
> surprised me because I thought the close was the courtyard around which 
> the tenement was built.

In Edinburgh's Old Town, the closes off the Royal Mile are the narrow 
lanes leading between the tenements, but the word is also, and more 
widely, used for the common stair.

A pend is more likely to be a courtyard.

Owain

bertvaux@gmail.com wrote...
> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
...
> Bert Vaux

Would one of the addressees consider opening a book on how the OP 
pronounces his surname? I can think of a number of possibilities, 
not all equally probable:
(a) to rhyme with 'auks'
(b) trw. 'fox'
(c) trw. 'gowks'
(d) trw. 'oaks'
(e) trw. 'saw'
(f) trw. 'cow'
(g) trw. 'hoe'
(h) trw. 'gauze'
(i) trw. 'hose'
(j) trw. 'dowse'
(k)-(t) as above, but starting with 'f'

Only punters who don't know the answer would be eligible to place 
bets. Dr Vaux would be asked to reveal all when 48 puntless hours 
have passed.

Elaborate anecdotes about Russian railway stations or Palestinian 
bandages welcome.
-- 
Noel

Tony Mountifield wrote:

> In article ,
> Mitch   wrote:
>> On Oct 23, 12:08 pm, t...@softins.clara.co.uk (Tony Mountifield)
>> wrote:
>> > In the UK, we would probably call it an alley or alleyway. Over here,
>> > alleys are usually too narrow for cars.
>> 
>> In (my) AmE, an alley must ostensibly be car accessible.
> 
> Which brings to mind another AmE/BrE difference. If something is
> particularly appropriate or of interest to someone, we say it is
> "right up their street", but I believe AmE would say "right up
> their alley".

That's correct as far as this AmE speaker is concerned.

-- 
Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food. 

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Ildhund wrote:
> bertvaux@gmail.com wrote...
>> Dear linguists and other lovers of the English language:
> ...
>> Bert Vaux
>
> Would one of the addressees consider opening a book on how the OP
> pronounces his surname? I can think of a number of possibilities,
> not all equally probable:
> (a) to rhyme with 'auks'
> (b) trw. 'fox'
> (c) trw. 'gowks'
> (d) trw. 'oaks'
> (e) trw. 'saw'
> (f) trw. 'cow'
> (g) trw. 'hoe'
> (h) trw. 'gauze'
> (i) trw. 'hose'
> (j) trw. 'dowse'
> (k)-(t) as above, but starting with 'f'
>
> Only punters who don't know the answer would be eligible to place
> bets. Dr Vaux would be asked to reveal all when 48 puntless hours
> have passed.
>
> Elaborate anecdotes about Russian railway stations or Palestinian
> bandages welcome.

Would it help if I pointed out that Faulkes de Breauté, who had a hall on 
the south bank of the Thames, was also Lord of the Manor of Luton?
-- 
John Briggs

Mark Brader wrote:
> Bert Vaux:
> 
>>>>http://www.ling.cam.ac.uk/survey/.
> 
> 
> Einde O'Callaghan:
> 
>>>In was prepared to participate in this test but was unable to do so 
>>>because of a major fault with this survey - in order to participatee 
>>>youn have to enter a postcode - however in the Republic of Ireland, 
>>>where I was born and grew up, postcodes are not used except in the 
>>>cities of Dublin and Cork.
> 
> 
> I wonder how many cities there are where Bert is going to get meaningful
> data distinguishing dialects of different parts of the city.  Asking for
> a postal code seems way too specific.

I had problems with postcodes too. I thought I ought to give the place 
where I was born, which probably had a greater influence on my 
pronunciation than my later translation to Australia, but the online 
postcode search couldn't find it, so I had to give my Aussie code.
(The Royal Post, or whatever they call themselves, did provide me with 
the code 24 hours later)

-- 
Rob Bannister

On Oct 23, 12:00 pm, Mitch  wrote:
> On Oct 22, 5:18 am, Matthew Huntbach  wrote:
>
> > The "alley" question was the only one I couldn't find my preferred answer
> > listed - the classic Sussex dialect word for this, "twitten", was not given.
>
> Hm...I have a semantic distinction here... the thing that cars can go
> on and dumpsters are in can be called an 'alley', but if a car can't
> go there, then it's -not- an alley...it's a ... I don't know. It's not
> a walkway or a sidewalk (even though I might say ' you know, the place
> between too buildings, the walkway that you take to get to the
> back' (i.e. I might -refer- to it as a walkway but I don't -call- it a
> walkway). It might even have a gate/not easily opened barrier, and
> might not even be walkable, but is nevertheless a gap between two
> buildings, wide enough for a person to walk through. What is -that-
> called (pick your dialect)?

In Chicago, there's a driveable roadway between each pair of east-west
streets, used for garage access and sometimes for trash pickup; that's
called an alley, and the spaces between houses, which lead to the back
yards, are called gangways.

In New York City, which doesn't have that sort of alley, the spaces
between buildings are called alleys, and a gangway is only a ramp used
for boarding a ship from the pier.

On Oct 23, 5:55 pm, mm  wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:33:04 -0000, Mitch  wrote:
> >On Oct 23, 5:30 am, Odysseus  wrote:
> >> In article ,
>
> >>  mm  wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:38:57 -0000, bertv...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > Does anyone call a traffic circle a jug handle?    Even though both
> >> > are common in New Jersey, they're very different.
>
> >> I had the same thought (mutatis mutandis) about "cloverleaf" on that
> >> question. I'd never seen "jug handle" in such a context before, though:
> >> is that something like one quarter of a cloverleaf?
>
> >Those are pretty different, too. A cloverleaf is a connector where you
> >go 270 degrees to the right in order to end up going 90 degrees left
> >(from one superhighway to another intersecting superhighway.
>
> >A jug handle is also to turn left but from a minor highway (like NJ Rt
> >1) to a lesser cross street (but big enough to need a traffic light).
> >The Jug handle replaces the use of a left-hand turn lane, by instead
> >drawing cars off to the right a bit and then facing to the left (also
> >allowing safer U-turns).
>
> >The cloverleaf usually comes in fours (one for each possible change in
> >direction to the left (a 'left turn' just doesn't sound right in this
> >situation)). Jug handles usually come in pairs (the minor intersecting
> >road won't have them).
>
> Right.  To have my turn, they use jug handles where there is no room
> for a center left turn lane.   And where they don't want to take the
> time awway from the highway to have a green for the cross traffic and
> a different green for a left turn lane.  And where there is that minor
> highway (And Route 1 is a prime example, though I saw them in one
> other plade in New Jersey also.) and they want that to have green
> lights 90% of the time.

They're found throughout New Jersey, and perhaps nowhere else;
remember that NJ was one of the first densely populated areas to get
automobilized, and engineers tried out many schemes for intersections
and such, many of which didn't work too well, especially when
traveling speeds increased. Many of them have been replaced with more
practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
one lane of it at a time for work.

> But there are usually minor cross-streets and sometimes they can
> squeeze the jug handle in the parking lot that already exists on busy
> highways, but other times I'm sure they condemn and remove the
> building on the right just before the cross-street  Then the right
> hand lane of the highway swerves off to the right and joins up with
> the cross street, several car lengths away from the highway.  So that
> cars can wait there until their light turns green.  
>
> It's pretty simple, but I didn't think of it.  In fact I didn't even
> get it the first time or two I saw the sign for one.  I'm still
> driving, trying to figure out how to turn left.
>
> They aren't labeled with a word, only a drawing, so you have to learn
> what they're called.  

The term in unknown elsewhere.

Peter T. Daniels wrote:


> They're found throughout New Jersey, and perhaps nowhere else;
> remember that NJ was one of the first densely populated areas to get
> automobilized, and engineers tried out many schemes for intersections
> and such, many of which didn't work too well, especially when
> traveling speeds increased. Many of them have been replaced with more
> practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
> beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
> Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
> It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
> it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
> seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
> one lane of it at a time for work.

I suppose most countries have their own "spaghetti junction". This is ours:
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?&hloc=GB|6006#t=l&map=-31.95804,115.8514|17|4&loc=AU:-31.92712:115.85303:14|6006|6006

Tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/2kr9sj

-- 
Rob Bannister

"Peter T. Daniels"  wrote in message 
news:1193408576.001605.70160@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
[...]
> Many of [these complex junctions] have been replaced with more
> practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
> beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
> Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
> It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
> it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
> seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
> one lane of it at a time for work.
[...]

What happens when the road surface needs extensive repair?

Alan Jones

On Oct 27, 4:30 am, "Alan Jones"  wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels"  wrote in messagenews:1193408576.001605.70160@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> [...]> Many of [these complex junctions] have been replaced with more
> > practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
> > beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
> > Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
> > It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
> > it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
> > seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
> > one lane of it at a time for work.
>
> [...]
>
> What happens when the road surface needs extensive repair?

If you'll drive through some lanes of it, you won't ask that question!

Actually, the Pulaski Skyway is about to have a $10 billion, 10-year
renovation (it was planned before the bridge fell down in Minneapolis,
but that caused it to have lots of publicity), and this knot at its
eastern end might (somehow) get redone. This past year, they've been
rebuilding the double-deck highway that leads from it to the Holland
Tunnel, and the traffic patterns have changed every few weeks as
successive ramps are replaced. I wonder what will happen when the two
levels of the main road, maybe half a mile long, get their chance.

On Oct 27, 6:15 am, "Peter T. Daniels"  wrote:
> On Oct 27, 4:30 am, "Alan Jones"  wrote:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels"  wrote in messagenews:1193408576.001605.70160@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> > [...]> Many of [these complex junctions] have been replaced with more
> > > practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
> > > beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
> > > Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
> > > It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
> > > it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
> > > seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
> > > one lane of it at a time for work.
>
> > [...]
>
> > What happens when the road surface needs extensive repair?
>
> If you'll drive through some lanes of it, you won't ask that question!
>
> Actually, the Pulaski Skyway is about to have a $10 billion, 10-year
> renovation (it was planned before the bridge fell down in Minneapolis,
> but that caused it to have lots of publicity), and this knot at its
> eastern end might (somehow) get redone. This past year, they've been
> rebuilding the double-deck highway that leads from it to the Holland
> Tunnel, and the traffic patterns have changed every few weeks as
> successive ramps are replaced. I wonder what will happen when the two
> levels of the main road, maybe half a mile long, get their chance.

While I enjoyed taking the quiz and looking at the map, I also found
it a bit confusing. Did anybody feel that way? Curious.

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:46:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
 wrote:

>Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>
>> They're found throughout New Jersey, and perhaps nowhere else;
>> remember that NJ was one of the first densely populated areas to get
>> automobilized, and engineers tried out many schemes for intersections
>> and such, many of which didn't work too well, especially when
>> traveling speeds increased. Many of them have been replaced with more
>> practical schemes, but some can't be -- such as the Tonelle Circle
>> beneath the Pulaski Skyway, which distributes traffic to the various
>> Hudson River crossings as well as to Jersey City, Newark, and Bayonne.
>> It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
>> it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
>> seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
>> one lane of it at a time for work.

If the need is perceived as great enough, it will get done. DC has
been through a couple years of pain and grief sorting out the "Mixing
Bowl" that is the Springfield Interchange. Also finished building a
whole new Beltway bridge over the Potomac. Not bad for the second or
third worst traffic area in the US.

>I suppose most countries have their own "spaghetti junction". This is ours:
>http://www.multimap.com/maps/?&hloc=GB|6006#t=l&map=-31.95804,115.8514|17|4&loc=AU:-31.92712:115.85303:14|6006|6006
>
>Tiny:
>http://tinyurl.com/2kr9sj

Here's one of ours:

http://tinyurl.com/2e5gu6

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Interchange

Padraic

-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Padraic Brown wrote:

[ ... ]

> If the need is perceived as great enough, it will get done. DC has
> been through a couple years of pain and grief sorting out the "Mixing
> Bowl" that is the Springfield Interchange. Also finished building a
> whole new Beltway bridge over the Potomac. Not bad for the second or
> third worst traffic area in the US.

Note, however, that the Springfield Interchange is entirely in
Virginia and the Woodrow Wilson Bridge was paid for mostly by Virginia
and Maryland.  And all the completion of the Springfield Interchange
seems to have accomplished is to transfer the bottlenecks elsewhere.

Still, it could be worse.  If the Metro ever stopped running, it would
be almost as crippling to the Washington area as the loss of the
subway would be to NY or the tube to London.

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:12:42 -0400, Robert Lieblich
 wrote:

>Padraic Brown wrote:
>
>[ ... ]
>

>>> It must be one of the most complicated "interchanges" anywhere, and
>>> it's always a bottleneck, and there's little chance of its being
>>> seriously rebuilt because it would be impossible to close down even
>>> one lane of it at a time for work.
>
>> If the need is perceived as great enough, it will get done. DC has
>> been through a couple years of pain and grief sorting out the "Mixing
>> Bowl" that is the Springfield Interchange. Also finished building a
>> whole new Beltway bridge over the Potomac. Not bad for the second or
>> third worst traffic area in the US.
>
>Note, however, that the Springfield Interchange is entirely in
>Virginia and the Woodrow Wilson Bridge was paid for mostly by Virginia
>and Maryland.  

Well, I'm not really concerned about who actually pays for it -- I was
responding to the engineering and logistics nightmares of shutting
down major highways and shunting zillions of vehicles onto alternate
pathways in order to get the work done. Virginia obviously felt the
need was great enough and was willing to take on the task. Jersey
apparently is not so willing! Looking at the pictures, I'd say the two
interchanges are comparable in their spaghettitude.

>And all the completion of the Springfield Interchange
>seems to have accomplished is to transfer the bottlenecks elsewhere.

This is quite true, but what is key to keep in mind here is that
_Springfield_ is now (comparatively) bottleneck free! ;)

>Still, it could be worse.  If the Metro ever stopped running, it would
>be almost as crippling to the Washington area as the loss of the
>subway would be to NY or the tube to London.

That's true.  The other railroads won't be able to take up the slack
(yet).

Padraic

-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com