Hi:
Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Thanks!

Zhegnquan

zhengquan wrote:
> Hi:
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's background according to that?
> 
> Thanks!

No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

zhengquan wrote:

> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Good question. It's something that has changed in my lifetme. The usual 
pronunciation was "offen", but I started noticing the T creep in on 
radio and television about the mid 1990s. Similarly, "Wensday" (for 
Wednesday) has become "Weddensday" over the same period. I suspect that 
the ultimate cause is media types reading from autocues, and the rest of 
the population following what they hear.

Paul Burke

Richard Polhill wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
>> Hi:
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
"offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.

One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
upper-middle class usage.


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

Mike Stevens wrote:
> Richard Polhill wrote:
>> zhengquan wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
> "offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
> Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
> educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

That's because the Scots still like to educate their schoolchildren, unlike in 
England. ;-)

> 
> Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.
> 
> One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
> years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
> satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
> dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

Which, of course, is not RP.

> 
> The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
> Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
> London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
> upper-middle class usage.
> 
> 
See above.

In article <d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com>,
Richard Polhill  <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's background according to that?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> 
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and "clothes".
My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...

> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
too
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
speaker.

Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
the word WITH a 't'.
It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
changes... ofTen is one of them:)
Anna (from Poland)

miranka wrote:
> "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
> 
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>
>> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> too
>> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
>> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
>> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> speaker.
> 
> Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> the word WITH a 't'.
> It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> Anna (from Poland)
> 

Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen" 
being listed first.

Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a 
preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of 
globalization.

I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word 
although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would 
once have been the mark of poor education.

It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter 
and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose 
silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

On May 31, 5:10 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> miranka wrote:
> > "Richard Polhill" <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
>
> >> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> >> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> > too
> >> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> >> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> >> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> > speaker.
>
> > Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> > course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> > for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> > pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> > recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> > the word WITH a 't'.
> > It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> > changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> > Anna (from Poland)
>
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen"
> being listed first.
>
> Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a
> preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of
> globalization.
>
> I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word
> although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would
> once have been the mark of poor education.
>
> It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter
> and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
> silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

It  *is* interesting, I will see how Charlotte Green pronounces that,
can I say her pronunciation is the most standard among all the BBC R4
presenters?

zhengquan wrote:
> Hi:
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's background according to that?
> 
> Thanks!

No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

zhengquan wrote:

> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Good question. It's something that has changed in my lifetme. The usual 
pronunciation was "offen", but I started noticing the T creep in on 
radio and television about the mid 1990s. Similarly, "Wensday" (for 
Wednesday) has become "Weddensday" over the same period. I suspect that 
the ultimate cause is media types reading from autocues, and the rest of 
the population following what they hear.

Paul Burke

Richard Polhill wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
>> Hi:
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
"offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.

One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
upper-middle class usage.


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

Mike Stevens wrote:
> Richard Polhill wrote:
>> zhengquan wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
> "offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
> Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
> educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

That's because the Scots still like to educate their schoolchildren, unlike in 
England. ;-)

> 
> Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.
> 
> One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
> years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
> satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
> dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

Which, of course, is not RP.

> 
> The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
> Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
> London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
> upper-middle class usage.
> 
> 
See above.

In article <d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com>,
Richard Polhill  <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's background according to that?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> 
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and "clothes".
My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...

> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
too
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
speaker.

Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
the word WITH a 't'.
It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
changes... ofTen is one of them:)
Anna (from Poland)

miranka wrote:
> "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
> 
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>
>> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> too
>> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
>> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
>> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> speaker.
> 
> Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> the word WITH a 't'.
> It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> Anna (from Poland)
> 

Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen" 
being listed first.

Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a 
preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of 
globalization.

I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word 
although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would 
once have been the mark of poor education.

It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter 
and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose 
silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

On May 31, 5:10 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> miranka wrote:
> > "Richard Polhill" <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
>
> >> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> >> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> > too
> >> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> >> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> >> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> > speaker.
>
> > Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> > course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> > for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> > pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> > recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> > the word WITH a 't'.
> > It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> > changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> > Anna (from Poland)
>
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen"
> being listed first.
>
> Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a
> preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of
> globalization.
>
> I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word
> although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would
> once have been the mark of poor education.
>
> It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter
> and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
> silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

It  *is* interesting, I will see how Charlotte Green pronounces that,
can I say her pronunciation is the most standard among all the BBC R4
presenters?

zhengquan wrote:
> Hi:
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's background according to that?
> 
> Thanks!

No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

zhengquan wrote:

> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Good question. It's something that has changed in my lifetme. The usual 
pronunciation was "offen", but I started noticing the T creep in on 
radio and television about the mid 1990s. Similarly, "Wensday" (for 
Wednesday) has become "Weddensday" over the same period. I suspect that 
the ultimate cause is media types reading from autocues, and the rest of 
the population following what they hear.

Paul Burke

Richard Polhill wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
>> Hi:
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
"offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.

One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
upper-middle class usage.


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

Mike Stevens wrote:
> Richard Polhill wrote:
>> zhengquan wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
> "offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
> Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
> educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

That's because the Scots still like to educate their schoolchildren, unlike in 
England. ;-)

> 
> Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.
> 
> One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
> years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
> satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
> dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

Which, of course, is not RP.

> 
> The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
> Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
> London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
> upper-middle class usage.
> 
> 
See above.

In article <d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com>,
Richard Polhill  <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's background according to that?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> 
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and "clothes".
My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...

> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
too
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
speaker.

Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
the word WITH a 't'.
It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
changes... ofTen is one of them:)
Anna (from Poland)

miranka wrote:
> "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
> 
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>
>> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> too
>> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
>> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
>> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> speaker.
> 
> Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> the word WITH a 't'.
> It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> Anna (from Poland)
> 

Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen" 
being listed first.

Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a 
preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of 
globalization.

I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word 
although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would 
once have been the mark of poor education.

It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter 
and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose 
silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

On May 31, 5:10 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> miranka wrote:
> > "Richard Polhill" <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
>
> >> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> >> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> > too
> >> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> >> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> >> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> > speaker.
>
> > Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> > course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> > for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> > pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> > recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> > the word WITH a 't'.
> > It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> > changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> > Anna (from Poland)
>
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen"
> being listed first.
>
> Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a
> preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of
> globalization.
>
> I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word
> although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would
> once have been the mark of poor education.
>
> It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter
> and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
> silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

It  *is* interesting, I will see how Charlotte Green pronounces that,
can I say her pronunciation is the most standard among all the BBC R4
presenters?

zhengquan wrote:
> Hi:
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's background according to that?
> 
> Thanks!

No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

zhengquan wrote:

> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Good question. It's something that has changed in my lifetme. The usual 
pronunciation was "offen", but I started noticing the T creep in on 
radio and television about the mid 1990s. Similarly, "Wensday" (for 
Wednesday) has become "Weddensday" over the same period. I suspect that 
the ultimate cause is media types reading from autocues, and the rest of 
the population following what they hear.

Paul Burke

Richard Polhill wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
>> Hi:
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
"offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.

One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
upper-middle class usage.


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

Mike Stevens wrote:
> Richard Polhill wrote:
>> zhengquan wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
> "offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
> Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
> educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

That's because the Scots still like to educate their schoolchildren, unlike in 
England. ;-)

> 
> Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.
> 
> One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
> years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
> satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
> dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

Which, of course, is not RP.

> 
> The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
> Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
> London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
> upper-middle class usage.
> 
> 
See above.

In article <d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com>,
Richard Polhill  <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's background according to that?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> 
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and "clothes".
My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...

> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
too
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
speaker.

Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
the word WITH a 't'.
It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
changes... ofTen is one of them:)
Anna (from Poland)

miranka wrote:
> "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
> 
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>
>> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> too
>> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
>> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
>> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> speaker.
> 
> Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> the word WITH a 't'.
> It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> Anna (from Poland)
> 

Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen" 
being listed first.

Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a 
preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of 
globalization.

I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word 
although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would 
once have been the mark of poor education.

It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter 
and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose 
silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

On May 31, 5:10 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> miranka wrote:
> > "Richard Polhill" <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
>
> >> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> >> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> > too
> >> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> >> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> >> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> > speaker.
>
> > Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> > course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> > for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> > pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> > recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> > the word WITH a 't'.
> > It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> > changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> > Anna (from Poland)
>
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen"
> being listed first.
>
> Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a
> preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of
> globalization.
>
> I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word
> although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would
> once have been the mark of poor education.
>
> It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter
> and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
> silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

It  *is* interesting, I will see how Charlotte Green pronounces that,
can I say her pronunciation is the most standard among all the BBC R4
presenters?

At 08:44:34 on Thu, 31 May 2007, Tony Mountifield 
 wrote in <f3m1ti$8n1$1@softins.clara.co.uk>:

>I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
>categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

I also pronounce the T (well, I often do...).  I grew up in an 
uppper-middle-class family in Edinburgh in the 1950s.

>Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and 
>"clothes".
>My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
>and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government", the 
first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament" (instead of 
"parlyment".  On the other hand, I happily say "Wedensday" instead of 
"Wednesday".

I've done this all my life, so it's nothing to do with fashions amongst 
TV presenters.

Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Molly Mockford wrote:

>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
>> and "clothes".
>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence, 
I quess).
>
> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> (instead of "parlyment".

I do both of these.

> On the other hand, I happily say
> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".

I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.

> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!

Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

Mike Stevens wrote:
> Molly Mockford wrote:
> 
>>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
>>> and "clothes".
>>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
>>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
> 
> Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence, 
> I quess).
>> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
>> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
>> (instead of "parlyment".
> 
> I do both of these.
> 
>> On the other hand, I happily say
>> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
> 
> I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
> 
>> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
> 
> Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
> 
> 

The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took 
elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?

Richard Polhill wrote:
> miranka wrote:
>> "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
>>
>>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>>
>>> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, 
>>> trying
>> too
>>> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
>>> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
>>> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
>> speaker.
>>
>> Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
>> course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think 
>> books
>> for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
>> pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
>> recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
>> the word WITH a 't'.
>> It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
>> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
>> Anna (from Poland)
>>
> 
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with 
> "offen" being listed first.
> 

OED on-line suggests that the 't' is optional in the first choice but omits the 
final vowel, and second choice is to sound the t and make the final vowel a schwa.

Brit. /of(t)n/, /oftən/

While I normally say the second option, I am trying, and failing, to say the 
word with no final vowel (but always sounding the 't').


-- 
Blue Sow

"Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message 
news:5512a$465fd519$3e18e6cb$15412@news.vispa.com...
> Mike Stevens wrote:
>> Molly Mockford wrote:
>>
>>>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
>>>> and "clothes".
>>>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
>>>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>>
>> Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media 
>> influence, I quess).
>>> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
>>> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
>>> (instead of "parlyment".
>>
>> I do both of these.
>>
>>> On the other hand, I happily say
>>> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>>
>> I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>>
>>> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>>
>> Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>>
>>
>
> The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took 
> elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?

I'm not convinced that RP is a single standard, nor that all elocutionists 
teach the same pronunciations.  I consider myself to be a speaker of (one 
version of) RP.


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

zhengquan wrote:
> Hi:
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's background according to that?
> 
> Thanks!

No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

zhengquan wrote:

> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Good question. It's something that has changed in my lifetme. The usual 
pronunciation was "offen", but I started noticing the T creep in on 
radio and television about the mid 1990s. Similarly, "Wensday" (for 
Wednesday) has become "Weddensday" over the same period. I suspect that 
the ultimate cause is media types reading from autocues, and the rest of 
the population following what they hear.

Paul Burke

Richard Polhill wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
>> Hi:
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
"offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.

One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
upper-middle class usage.


-- 
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Defend the waterways.
Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk

Mike Stevens wrote:
> Richard Polhill wrote:
>> zhengquan wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
>>> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and 
> "offen" are equally acceptable in RP.  My wife thinks that perhaps educated 
> Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do 
> educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

That's because the Scots still like to educate their schoolchildren, unlike in 
England. ;-)

> 
> Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation.  This occurs in two contexts.
> 
> One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early 
> years of her reign, and still in some members of her family.  It was 
> satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of 
> dialogue  based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

Which, of course, is not RP.

> 
> The other, possibly now obsolete  -  I remember it being used by my 
> Grandmother (born c.1890)  -  was used by the aspiring working-class (in 
> London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common 
> upper-middle class usage.
> 
> 
See above.

In article <d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com>,
Richard Polhill  <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> zhengquan wrote:
> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's background according to that?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> 
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
> 
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too 
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a 
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of 
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and "clothes".
My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Cheers
Tony
-- 
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...

> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
too
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
speaker.

Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
the word WITH a 't'.
It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
changes... ofTen is one of them:)
Anna (from Poland)

miranka wrote:
> "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
> 
>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>
>> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> too
>> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
>> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
>> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> speaker.
> 
> Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> the word WITH a 't'.
> It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> Anna (from Poland)
> 

Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen" 
being listed first.

Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a 
preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of 
globalization.

I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word 
although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would 
once have been the mark of poor education.

It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter 
and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose 
silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

On May 31, 5:10 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> miranka wrote:
> > "Richard Polhill" <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:d1f4$465e73d7$3e18e6cb$16148@news.vispa.com...
>
> >> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> >> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying
> > too
> >> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> >> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> >> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English
> > speaker.
>
> > Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
> > course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
> > for foreign learners  should stick to the most  popular or recommended
> > pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
> > recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
> > the word WITH a 't'.
> > It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
> > changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> > Anna (from Poland)
>
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen"
> being listed first.
>
> Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a
> preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of
> globalization.
>
> I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word
> although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would
> once have been the mark of poor education.
>
> It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter
> and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
> silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

It  *is* interesting, I will see how Charlotte Green pronounces that,
can I say her pronunciation is the most standard among all the BBC R4
presenters?

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, zhengquan  wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
>
>
> <richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:
> > Mike Stevens wrote:
> > > Molly Mockford wrote:
>
> > >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> > >>> and "clothes".
> > >>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
> > >>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).
>
> > > Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
> > > I quess).
> > >> I'm with you on that.  I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> > >> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> > >> (instead of "parlyment".
>
> > > I do both of these.
>
> > >> On the other hand, I happily say
> > >> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".
>
> > > I'm afraid I say "Wensdy"  -  probably my London ancestry coming through.
>
> > >> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!
>
> > > Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings!  :-)
>
> > The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> > elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?
>
> I agree with this point.