Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
means can we refuse to take it?

Like Tamiflu, the potential side effects make the remedy look worse
than the malady.

I came down with suspected swine flu recently. All the symptoms were
there. I was actually looking forward to it - better to be infected
early while the virus is still relatively benign, and acquire
immunity, than later on if it mutates into something worse.

It put me in bed for a day with no appetite but after that I was fine.
Missus just thought it a case of man-flu. I think I got off lucky as I
heard others have been put out of action for longer. I've survived a
lot of flus in my life with no lingering effect and I say better the
devil you know than the one you don't. Especially when it is in
someone's interest to sell you the alleged "cure", and if you suffer
side effects then guess what...they have more things to sell you...

Anyone have any experience getting Tamiflu and what sort of requests
does our meddling government make of you?

Whenever Nanny says "It is for your own good" it makes me wary.

N5

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/Swine_flu/article6797993.ece

Death link to swine flu vaccine
Dominic Tonner

HEALTH officials have warned doctors of possible similarities between
the new swine flu vaccine and a jab linked to 25 deaths in America in
the 1970s.

The government’s Health Protection Agency (HPA), said in a letter to
neurologists that they needed to look out for increases in cases of a
brain disorder that might follow the launch of the immunisation
programme.

The letter has been sent because of concerns sparked by studying of
the swine flu vaccination campaign in America.

In 1976, Washington rushed in a mass immunisation programme against a
swine flu outbreak that was confined to a single military base.

Several hundred cases of a rare, lethal, paralysing neurological
disease called Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) were reported afterwards,
and although no clear link was ever found to the vaccine, the incident
made many people mistrustful of immunisations.

Although the swine flu virus vaccine now close to completion is
different from the one used in 1976, the HPA said the earlier incident
nevertheless highlighted a possible area of concern.

“The vaccines used to combat an expected swine influenza pandemic in
1976 were shown to be associated with GBS and were withdrawn from
use,” Professor Elizabeth Miller, head of the HPA’s immunisation
department, wrote in the letter sent last month to neurologists.

“GBS has been identified as a condition needing enhanced surveillance
when the swine flu vaccines are rolled out.”

The Department of Health said: “Appropriate trials to assess safety
and immune responses have been carried out on vaccines very similar to
the swine flu vaccine. The vaccines have been shown to have a good
safety profile.”

The World Health Organisation has also said recently that the public
should be “reassured” about the safety of the new vaccine. It
acknowledged that “genuine adverse events directly caused by the
vaccine may also occur, but cannot be predicted in advance”.

The NHS will monitor any possible risks from the vaccine, including a
possible connection with GBS.

GlaxoSmithKline is developing the vaccine in Germany for an
immunisation programme due to start in October.

Some 9.4m people in England will receive the vaccine if they fall into
priority groups, alongside 2.1m frontline health and social care
workers. In Scotland 1.4m people in either at-risk groups or working
in health and social care will get the jab.

Priority will be given to those aged six months to 65 years in high-
risk groups – including those with asthma, diabetes, heart disease,
renal disease or with a compromised immune system.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:26:39 -0700 (PDT), November 5
 wrote:

>Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional,

yes of course it will.

> and if not by what means can we refuse to take it?

Don't go for it.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:26:39 -0700, November 5 wrote:

> HEALTH officials have warned doctors of possible similarities between the
> new swine flu vaccine and a jab linked to 25 deaths in America in the
> 1970s.

How many deaths in the US have occurred due to swine flu so far that could
have been prevented if they had been vaccinated?

Here it is - 477.

http://www.theora.com/swineFlu/?do=swCountry&country=United+States

November 5 wrote:
> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> means can we refuse to take it?

In the UK?

Just don't go to wherever they're dishing the stuff out.

No-one will notice...

-- 
William Black

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:26:39 -0700, November 5 wrote:

>  to be infected
> early while the virus is still relatively benign, and acquire immunity,
> than later on if it mutates into something worse.

if it mutates, will you have resistance by exposure to its previous form?

a) how much does it have to mutate to be considered to have 'mutated'?

b) how much does it have to mutate to be no longer detected by immune 
system as the previous form of the virus? and so pass as benign until 
slower recognition systems kick in?

any information/links/references appreciated...

Phil Stovell wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:26:39 -0700, November 5 wrote:
>
> > HEALTH officials have warned doctors of possible similarities between the
> > new swine flu vaccine and a jab linked to 25 deaths in America in the
> > 1970s.
>
> How many deaths in the US have occurred due to swine flu so far that could
> have been prevented if they had been vaccinated?
>
> Here it is - 477.
>
> http://www.theora.com/swineFlu/?do=swCountry&country=United+States

I have seen no evidence that swine flu is significantly more virulent
than normal flu. More infectious, perhaps.

You might have gotten that same percentage of dead if the same total
number of people were infected with your run of the mill seasonal flu.

Just tough it out.

N5

November 5 wrote:
> 
> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> means can we refuse to take it?

Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?

FrereTuck wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:26:39 -0700, November 5 wrote:
>
> >  to be infected
> > early while the virus is still relatively benign, and acquire immunity,
> > than later on if it mutates into something worse.
>
> if it mutates, will you have resistance by exposure to its previous form?

No one knows for certain as that knowledge will require predicting the
prevalent mutated form.

However, FWIW I would say you're better off having been exposed and
survived an early, less virulent version of it than none at all.

If what I did have recently was really swine flu (the symptoms matched
100%) then it is nothing for a healthy person to worry about.

> a) how much does it have to mutate to be considered to have 'mutated'?

HIV tricks the immune system by rapidly mutating. Those exposed to
cowpox (Dutch milk maids) were resistant to smallpox. So it is quite
hard to say.

> b) how much does it have to mutate to be no longer detected by immune
> system as the previous form of the virus? and so pass as benign until
> slower recognition systems kick in?
>
> any information/links/references appreciated...

N5

johannes wrote:
> 
> November 5 wrote:
>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
>> means can we refuse to take it?
> 
> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?

How on earth will they impose that one?

A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?


-- 
William Black

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made.

William Black wrote:
> 
> johannes wrote:
> >
> > November 5 wrote:
> >> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> >> means can we refuse to take it?
> >
> > Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
> 
> How on earth will they impose that one?
> 
> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?

Simple. By a vaccination certificate.

johannes wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> johannes wrote:
>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>> How on earth will they impose that one?
>>
>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
> 
> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.

And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking 
everyone's 'papers'.

Don't be silly.



-- 
William Black

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made.

William Black wrote:
> 
> johannes wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> johannes wrote:
> >>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> >>>> means can we refuse to take it?
> >>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
> >> How on earth will they impose that one?
> >>
> >> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
> >
> > Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
> 
> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
> everyone's 'papers'.
> 
> Don't be silly.

Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
who hasn't a vaccination certificate.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 13:54:55 +0100, johannes wrote:

> William Black wrote:
>> 
>> johannes wrote:
>> >
>> > William Black wrote:
>> >> johannes wrote:
>> >>> November 5 wrote:
>> >>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by
>> >>>> what means can we refuse to take it?
>> >>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>> >> How on earth will they impose that one?
>> >>
>> >> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
>> >
>> > Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
>> 
>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
>> everyone's 'papers'.
>> 
>> Don't be silly.
> 
> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has
> and who hasn't a vaccination certificate.

rfid... by the backdoor... ?

johannes wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> johannes wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
>>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
>>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
>>>>
>>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
>>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
>> everyone's 'papers'.
>>
>> Don't be silly.
> 
> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
> who hasn't a vaccination certificate.

Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other 
buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there, 
parents,  school governors and on and on and on.

Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...


-- 
William Black

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made.

In news:pan.2009.08.16.11.52.00.754011@stovell.nospam.org.uk Phil
Stovell  wrote: 

> How many deaths in the US have occurred due to swine flu 

You mean "H1N1 influenza" don't you? Mustn't upset the pork producers.

> so far that could have been prevented if they had been vaccinated?

There's no vaccine available, so far as I know.
 
> Here it is - 477.

Of course, thousands die in the US from the "seasonal" flu every year.

-- 
Bert Hyman	St. Paul, MN	bert@iphouse.com

William Black wrote:
> 
> johannes wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> johannes wrote:
> >>> William Black wrote:
> >>>> johannes wrote:
> >>>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> >>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
> >>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
> >>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
> >>>>
> >>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
> >>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
> >> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
> >> everyone's 'papers'.
> >>
> >> Don't be silly.
> >
> > Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
> > who hasn't a vaccination certificate.
> 
> Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other
> buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there,
> parents,  school governors and on and on and on.
> 
> Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...

Probably have to produce a vaccination certificate... 

Anyway, I don't want the vaccination if it has not been rigorously tested. 
It was just a suggestion of what might happen if it becomes compulsory.

johannes wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> johannes wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
>>>>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
>>>>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>>>>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
>>>>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
>>>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
>>>> everyone's 'papers'.
>>>>
>>>> Don't be silly.
>>> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
>>> who hasn't a vaccination certificate.
>> Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other
>> buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there,
>> parents,  school governors and on and on and on.
>>
>> Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...
> 
> Probably have to produce a vaccination certificate... 

Who to?

School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"

Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it

Clerk:  Then you can't come in

Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of the 
education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in, right now.

Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?

Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>

-- 
William Black

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made.

William Black wrote:
> 
> johannes wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> johannes wrote:
> >>> William Black wrote:
> >>>> johannes wrote:
> >>>>> William Black wrote:
> >>>>>> johannes wrote:
> >>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> >>>>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
> >>>>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
> >>>>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
> >>>>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
> >>>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
> >>>> everyone's 'papers'.
> >>>>
> >>>> Don't be silly.
> >>> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
> >>> who hasn't a vaccination certificate.
> >> Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other
> >> buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there,
> >> parents,  school governors and on and on and on.
> >>
> >> Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...
> >
> > Probably have to produce a vaccination certificate...
> 
> Who to?
> 
> School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"
> 
> Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it
> 
> Clerk:  Then you can't come in
> 
> Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of the
> education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in, right now.
> 
> Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?
> 
> Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>

Yeah, LOL. Now swineflu is only mildly dangerous, though one school girl
has died. But what it is was bird flue or something really life threatening?

johannes wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> johannes wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
>>>>>>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
>>>>>>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>>>>>>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
>>>>>>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
>>>>>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
>>>>>> everyone's 'papers'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't be silly.
>>>>> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
>>>>> who hasn't a vaccination certificate.
>>>> Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other
>>>> buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there,
>>>> parents,  school governors and on and on and on.
>>>>
>>>> Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...
>>> Probably have to produce a vaccination certificate...
>> Who to?
>>
>> School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"
>>
>> Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it
>>
>> Clerk:  Then you can't come in
>>
>> Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of the
>> education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in, right now.
>>
>> Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?
>>
>> Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>
> 
> Yeah, LOL. Now swineflu is only mildly dangerous, though one school girl
> has died. But what it is was bird flue or something really life threatening?

Then, with a 50% death rate you would be a fool to reject the vaccine.

-- 
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff

johannes wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> johannes wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>>>> johannes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
>>>>>>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
>>>>>>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>>>>>>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
>>>>>>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
>>>>>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
>>>>>> everyone's 'papers'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't be silly.
>>>>> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
>>>>> who hasn't a vaccination certificate.
>>>> Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other
>>>> buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there,
>>>> parents,  school governors and on and on and on.
>>>>
>>>> Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...
>>> Probably have to produce a vaccination certificate...
>> Who to?
>>
>> School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"
>>
>> Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it
>>
>> Clerk:  Then you can't come in
>>
>> Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of the
>> education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in, right now.
>>
>> Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?
>>
>> Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>
> 
> Yeah, LOL. Now swineflu is only mildly dangerous, though one school girl
> has died. But what it is was bird flue or something really life threatening?

Same story really.

What do you do if a kid refused the injection because they're allergic 
to egg albumen?

Schools are too vulnerable to infection for any silly physical security 
restriction to work.

-- 
William Black

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made.

In article <c37f7ea4-5741-4329-b4ee-c4b5dcb1cdf6@v36g2000yqv.googlegroup
s.com>, November 5  writes
>Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what 
>means can we refuse to take it? 
>
>Like Tamiflu, the potential side effects make the remedy look worse than 
>the malady.
>
>I came down with suspected swine flu recently. All the symptoms were 
>there. I was actually looking forward to it - better to be infected 
>early while the virus is still relatively benign, and acquire immunity, 
>than later on if it mutates into something worse.
>
>It put me in bed for a day with no appetite but after that I was fine. 
>Missus just thought it a case of man-flu. I think I got off lucky as I 
>heard others have been put out of action for longer. I've survived a lot 
>of flus in my life with no lingering effect and I say better the devil 
>you know than the one you don't. Especially when it is in someone's 
>interest to sell you the alleged "cure", and if you suffer side effects 
>then guess what...they have more things to sell you...
>
I was off work last week also with alleged Piggy Flu, the worst for me
was the sort of woozy headache and the trots, mine lasted 4 or 5 days
and I slept a lot, probably 12 to 15 hours a day.

I've had real flu twice once turning to pneumonia and swine flu, if
indeed I had it, was a pussy by comparison, more like a severe cold, it
certainly didn't pass the £50 note test.

>Anyone have any experience getting Tamiflu and what sort of requests 
>does our meddling government make of you? 

I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
as that.

I kept out of the way of my granddaughter and son when they visited and
advised my other son, who has Adison's disease not to visit.

Mike

-- 
Michael Swift           We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.      
Kirkheaton              We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.    
Yorkshire                                       Halvard Lange

In article <h68u97$v93$1@news.eternal-september.org>, William Black
 writes
>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
>
>How on earth will they impose that one?
>
>A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?

Don't give them ideas.

Mike

-- 
Michael Swift           We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.      
Kirkheaton              We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.    
Yorkshire                                       Halvard Lange

On 16/08/2009 12:52, Phil Stovell wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:26:39 -0700, November 5 wrote:
>
>> HEALTH officials have warned doctors of possible similarities between the
>> new swine flu vaccine and a jab linked to 25 deaths in America in the
>> 1970s.
>
> How many deaths in the US have occurred due to swine flu so far that could
> have been prevented if they had been vaccinated?
>
> Here it is - 477.
>

Regular flu in the United States kills about 30,000 people in an average 
year. Around 13,000 normal flu deaths in this country per year.

In article , johannes
 writes
>robably have to produce a vaccination certificate... 
>
>Anyway, I don't want the vaccination if it has not been rigorously 
>tested. It was just a suggestion of what might happen if it becomes 
>compulsory. 

I'm surprised we haven't got a Swine Flu Tsar yet, we seem to have one
for everything else.

Mike

-- 
Michael Swift           We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.      
Kirkheaton              We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.    
Yorkshire                                       Halvard Lange

Michael Swift wrote:
> 
> In article , johannes
>  writes
> >robably have to produce a vaccination certificate...
> >
> >Anyway, I don't want the vaccination if it has not been rigorously
> >tested. It was just a suggestion of what might happen if it becomes
> >compulsory.
> 
> I'm surprised we haven't got a Swine Flu Tsar yet, we seem to have one
> for everything else.
> 
> Mike

OMG, I thought for a moment I was reading a Swine Flu Tazer...

Michael Swift wrote:
> In article , johannes
>  writes
>> robably have to produce a vaccination certificate... 
>>
>> Anyway, I don't want the vaccination if it has not been rigorously 
>> tested. It was just a suggestion of what might happen if it becomes 
>> compulsory. 
> 
> I'm surprised we haven't got a Swine Flu Tsar yet, we seem to have one
> for everything else.
> 
> Mike
> 
We need a swine flu QUANGO staffed by the Great and Good who meet one 
day a month to discuss things and get paid £100k a year each for serving us.

-- 
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff

William Black wrote:

> School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"
>
> Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it
>
> Clerk:  Then you can't come in
>
> Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of
> the education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in,
> right now.
> Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?
>
> Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>

So, what's the problem letting a person with swine flu into an environment 
where everyone else has been vaccinated against it?

Isn't that the point of vaccination?

Norman Wells wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
> 
> > School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"
> >
> > Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it
> >
> > Clerk:  Then you can't come in
> >
> > Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of
> > the education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in,
> > right now.
> > Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?
> >
> > Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>
> 
> So, what's the problem letting a person with swine flu into an environment
> where everyone else has been vaccinated against it?
> 
> Isn't that the point of vaccination?

No, it a penalty sanction against those who refuses to take up the compulsory
vaccination.

In article , johannes
 writes
>> I'm surprised we haven't got a Swine Flu Tsar yet, we seem to have one
>> for everything else.
>> 
>> Mike
>
>OMG, I thought for a moment I was reading a Swine Flu Tazer... 

You're the second person in this thread to give the government ideas,
sorry sir your 'clean bill of health' ID card lists you as having Swine
Flu, if you try and enter this establishment I'll have to tazer you.

Mike

-- 
Michael Swift           We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.      
Kirkheaton              We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.    
Yorkshire                                       Halvard Lange

On Aug 16, 3:25 pm, johannes  wrote:
> William Black wrote:
>
> > johannes wrote:
>
> > > William Black wrote:
> > >> johannes wrote:
> > >>> William Black wrote:
> > >>>> johannes wrote:
> > >>>>> William Black wrote:
> > >>>>>> johannes wrote:
> > >>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
> > >>>>>>>> means can we refuse to take it?
> > >>>>>>> Maybe refused permission to enter schools and some work places?
> > >>>>>> How on earth will they impose that one?
>
> > >>>>>> A bar code on the forehead of everyone injected?
> > >>>>> Simple. By a vaccination certificate.
> > >>>> And,  no doubt,  a uniformed and jackbooted guard on the gate checking
> > >>>> everyone's 'papers'.
>
> > >>>> Don't be silly.
> > >>> Schools and work places are not public places. They will know who has and
> > >>> who hasn't a vaccination certificate.
> > >> Yeah,  right,  so what about delivery drivers,  electricians and other
> > >> buildings services people,  the library lady,  night classes held there,
> > >> parents,  school governors and on and on and on.
>
> > >> Schools may not be public places but they get a lot of visitors...
>
> > > Probably have to produce a vaccination certificate...
>
> > Who to?
>
> > School clerk:  "Vaccination certificate please"
>
> > Visitor: I seem to have forgotten it
>
> > Clerk:  Then you can't come in
>
> > Visitor:  Not only am I a county councillor,  I am also the chair of the
> > education committee and if you value your job you'll let me in, right now.
>
> > Clerk:  Sorry sir,  please enter,  Shall I call the headmaster?
>
> > Visitor:  That's alright <sneezes heavily>
>
> Yeah, LOL. Now swineflu is only mildly dangerous, though one school girl
> has died. But what it is was bird flue or something really life threatening?

I assume that if the swine flu virus mutates with the bird flu one,
the vaccine would probably not give much resistance to the resulting
super-virus (as the media would no doubt call it).

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/376.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Vaccine Situation

BRIEFING:
by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

EXCERPTS:

“The damage caused by vaccine exposure is massive.
It’s bigger than asbestos, bigger than tobacco,
bigger than anything you’ve ever seen.”

"The story of how government health agencies colluded with Big Pharma
 to hide the risks of thimerosal from the public
 is a chilling case study of institutional arrogance, power and
greed."

 "According to a CDC epidemiologist named Tom Verstraeten, who had
analyzed the agency’s massive database containing the medical records
of 100,000 children, a mercury-based preservative in the vaccines
thimerosal appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in
autism and a host of other neurological disorders among children.  "I
was actually stunned by what I saw", Verstraeten told those assembled
at Simpsonwood, citing the staggering number of earlier studies that
indicate a link between thimerosal and speech delays, attention-
deficit disorder, hyperactivity and autism. Since 1991, when the CDC
and the FDA had recommended that three additional vaccines laced with
the preservative be given to extremely young infants, in one case
within hours of birth, the estimated number of cases of autism had
increased fifteen fold, from one in every 2,500 children to one in 166
children."

"You couldn't even construct a study that shows thimerosal is safe,
says Haley, who heads the chemistry department at the University of
Kentucky. Its just too darn toxic. If you inject thimerosal into an
animal, its brain will sicken. If you apply it to living tissue, the
cells die. If you put it in a Petri dish, the culture dies. Knowing
these things, it would be shocking if one could inject it into an
infant without causing damage."

"Before 1989, American preschoolers received eleven vaccinations for
polio, diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and measles-mumps-rubella. A
decade later, thanks to federal recommendations, children were
receiving a total of twenty-two immunizations by the time they reached
first grade. As the number of vaccines increased, the rate of autism
among children exploded. During the 1990s, 40 million children were
injected with thimerosal-based vaccines, receiving unprecedented
levels of mercury during a period critical for brain development."

"The elementary grades are overwhelmed with children who have symptoms
of neurological or immune-system damage", Patti White, a school nurse,
told the House Government Reform Committee in 1999.  "Vaccines are
supposed to be making us healthier; however, in twenty-five years of
nursing I have never seen so many damaged, sick kids. Something very,
very wrong is happening to our children."

"More than 500,000 kids currently suffer from autism, and
pediatricians diagnose more than 40,000 new cases every year. The
disease was unknown until 1943, when it was identified and diagnosed
among eleven children born in the months after thimerosal was first
added to baby vaccines in 1931."

"If federal regulators and government scientists failed to grasp the
potential risks of thimerosal over the years, no one could claim
ignorance after the secret meeting at Simpsonwood. But rather than
conduct more studies to test the link to autism and other forms of
brain damage, the CDC placed politics over science. The agency turned
its database on childhood vaccines which had been developed largely at
taxpayer expense over to a private agency, Americas Health Insurance
Plans, ensuring that it could not be used for additional research. It
also instructed the Institute of Medicine, an advisory organization
that is part of the National Academy of Sciences, to produce a study
debunking the link between thimerosal and brain disorders."



PREFACE NOTE:

The new flu vaccines that the BS (Belief System) MSM (MainStream
Media) tells us will be "MANDATORY" is being produced en masse by the
companies named below and their divisions which use various corporate
names under the same umbrella conglomerates.

These companies are using either dead or live viruses, or both, in
their vaccines.  Some are using thimerosal under a different name, and
others use a poison of a different nature to make the remedy "take",
so that the stupid body “gets it” with a dose of poison.  US officials
plan to administer 3 toxic immune system destroying squalene
injections this fall under the guise of swine flu "biodefense",
despite substantial scientific evidence proving this is a deadly
immune-intoxicating substance.

That system of “allopathic” medicine is killing us with a monopoly
stranglehold on holistic integrative medicine that – in health-
building terms -- is light years beyond poison pills for health.

The only thing going for poison pills is the “placebo effect”, our
belief that we will be healthier in spite of the poison.  Believing
this Big Lie -- in the face of all evidence to the contrary -- only
makes it true when your "BS meter" (discernment) is broken.

To be subservient to that insanity is a sure sign of poor mental
health.  The allopathic medical monopoly wants to keep it that way – a
counterproductive system (not healthy) that is outright killing us.
Sustainability for that system requires mass “FUD” (Fear, Uncertainty
& Doubt) and mass “DUH” (Dummies, Unconscious & Heartless).

That stupefied FUD & DUH mindset of allopathic medicine believes you
have an enemy within you that must be poisoned with a worse enemy
which weakens the immune system while telling you it is for your
health!

That's what children do, innocently singing the "DUH Song": If you're
happy and you like it, clank your chains.

It's time for all adults to make a strong stand for new HEALTH
ASSURANCE POLICIES.

~ CR]


--------- article follows:

http://www.pandemicfluonline.com/?p=510#more-510

Vaccinations: Deadly Immunity

By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Global Research

July 25, 2009

In June 2000, a group of top government scientists and health
officials gathered for a meeting at the isolated Simpsonwood
conference center in Norcross, Georgia. Convened by the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention, the meeting was held at this Methodist
retreat center, nestled in wooded farmland next to the Chattahoochee
River, to ensure complete secrecy. The agency had issued no public
announcement of the session only private invitations to fifty-two
attendees. There were high-level officials from the CDC and the Food
and Drug Administration, the top vaccine specialist from the World
Health Organization in Geneva and representatives of every major
vaccine manufacturer, including GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Wyeth and
Aventis Pasteur. All of the scientific data under discussion, CDC
officials repeatedly reminded the participants, was strictly
embargoed. There would be no making photocopies of documents, no
taking papers with them when they left.

The federal officials and industry representatives had assembled to
discuss a disturbing new study that raised alarming questions about
the safety of a host of common childhood vaccines administered to
infants and young children. According to a CDC epidemiologist named
Tom Verstraeten, who had analyzed the agencys massive database
containing the medical records of 100,000 children, a mercury-based
preservative in the vaccines thimerosal appeared to be responsible for
a dramatic increase in autism and a host of other neurological
disorders among children. I was actually stunned by what I saw,
Verstraeten told those assembled at Simpsonwood, citing the staggering
number of earlier studies that indicate a link between thimerosal and
speech delays, attention-deficit disorder, hyperactivity and autism.
Since 1991, when the CDC and the FDA had recommended that three
additional vaccines laced with the preservative be given to extremely
young infants in one case, within hours of birth the estimated number
of cases of autism had increased fifteen fold, from one in every 2,500
children to one in 166 children.

Even for scientists and doctors accustomed to confronting issues of
life and death, the findings were frightening. You can play with this
all you want, Dr. Bill Weil, a consultant for the American Academy of
Pediatrics, told the group. The results are statistically significant.
Dr. Richard Johnston, an immunologist and pediatrician from the
University of Colorado whose grandson had been born early on the
morning of the meetings first day, was even more alarmed. My gut
feeling? he said. Forgive this personal comment I do not want my
grandson to get a thimerosal-containing vaccine until we know better
what is going on.

But instead of taking immediate steps to alert the public and rid the
vaccine supply of thimerosal, the officials and executives at
Simpsonwood spent most of the next two days discussing how to cover up
the damaging data. According to transcripts obtained under the Freedom
of Information Act, many at the meeting were concerned about how the
damaging revelations about thimerosal would affect the vaccine
industrys bottom line. We are in a bad position from the standpoint of
defending any lawsuits, said Dr. Robert Brent, a pediatrician at the
Alfred I. DuPont Hospital for Children in Delaware. This will be a
resource to our very busy plaintiff attorneys in this country. Dr. Bob
Chen, head of vaccine safety for the CDC, expressed relief that given
the sensitivity of the information, we have been able to keep it out
of the hands of, lets say, less responsible hands. Dr. John Clements,
vaccines advisor at the World Health Organization, declared that
perhaps this study should not have been done at all. He added that the
research results have to be handled, warning that the study will be
taken by others and will be used in other ways beyond the control of
this group.

In fact, the government has proved to be far more adept at handling
the damage than at protecting childrens health. The CDC paid the
Institute of Medicine to conduct a new study to whitewash the risks of
thimerosal, ordering researchers to rule out the chemicals link to
autism. It withheld Verstraetens findings, even though they had been
slated for immediate publication, and told other scientists that his
original data had been lost and could not be replicated. And to thwart
the Freedom of Information Act, it handed its giant database of
vaccine records over to a private company, declaring it off-limits to
researchers. By the time Verstraeten finally published his study in
2003, he had gone to work for GlaxoSmithKline and reworked his data to
bury the link between thimerosal and autism.

Vaccine manufacturers had already begun to phase thimerosal out of
injections given to American infants but they continued to sell off
their mercury-based supplies of vaccines until last year. The CDC and
FDA gave them a hand, buying up the tainted vaccines for export to
developing countries and allowing drug companies to continue using the
preservative in some American vaccines including several pediatric flu
shots as well as tetanus boosters routinely given to eleven-year-olds.

The drug companies are also getting help from powerful lawmakers in
Washington. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who has received
$873,000 in contributions from the pharmaceutical industry, has been
working to immunize vaccine makers from liability in 4,200 lawsuits
that have been filed by the parents of injured children. On five
separate occasions, Frist has tried to seal all of the governments
vaccine-related documents including the Simpsonwood transcripts and
shield Eli Lilly, the developer of thimerosal, from subpoenas. In
2002, the day after Frist quietly slipped a rider known as the Eli
Lilly Protection Act into a homeland security bill, the company
contributed $10,000 to his campaign and bought 5,000 copies of his
book on bioterrorism. The measure was repealed by Congress in 2003 but
earlier this year, Frist slipped another provision into an anti-
terrorism bill that would deny compensation to children suffering from
vaccine-related brain disorders. The lawsuits are of such magnitude
that they could put vaccine producers out of business and limit our
capacity to deal with a biological attack by terrorists, says Dean
Rosen, health policy adviser to Frist.

Even many conservatives are shocked by the governments effort to cover
up the dangers of thimerosal. Rep. Dan Burton, a Republican from
Indiana, oversaw a three-year investigation of thimerosal after his
grandson was diagnosed with autism. Thimerosal used as a preservative
in vaccines is directly related to the autism epidemic, his House
Government Reform Committee concluded in its final report. This
epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had
the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding a lack of safety data
regarding injected thimerosal, a known neurotoxin. The FDA and other
public-health agencies failed to act, the committee added, out of
institutional malfeasance for self protection and misplaced
protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry.

The story of how government health agencies colluded with Big Pharma
to hide the risks of thimerosal from the public is a chilling case
study of institutional arrogance, power and greed. I was drawn into
the controversy only reluctantly. As an attorney and environmentalist
who has spent years working on issues of mercury toxicity, I
frequently met mothers of autistic children who were absolutely
convinced that their kids had been injured by vaccines. Privately, I
was skeptical.

I doubted that autism could be blamed on a single source, and I
certainly understood the governments need to reassure parents that
vaccinations are safe; the eradication of deadly childhood diseases
depends on it. I tended to agree with skeptics like Rep. Henry Waxman,
a Democrat from California, who criticized his colleagues on the House
Government Reform Committee for leaping to conclusions about autism
and vaccinations. Why should we scare people about immunization,
Waxman pointed out at one hearing, until we know the facts?

It was only after reading the Simpsonwood transcripts, studying the
leading scientific research and talking with many of the nation's pre-
eminent authorities on mercury that I became convinced that the link
between thimerosal and the epidemic of childhood neurological
disorders is real. Five of my own children are members of the
Thimerosal Generation those born between 1989 and 2003 who received
heavy doses of mercury from vaccines. "The elementary grades are
overwhelmed with children who have symptoms of neurological or immune-
system damage", Patti White, a school nurse, told the House Government
Reform Committee in 1999.  "Vaccines are supposed to be making us
healthier; however, in twenty-five years of nursing I have never seen
so many damaged, sick kids. Something very, very wrong is happening to
our children."

More than 500,000 kids currently suffer from autism, and pediatricians
diagnose more than 40,000 new cases every year. The disease was
unknown until 1943, when it was identified and diagnosed among eleven
children born in the months after thimerosal was first added to baby
vaccines in 1931.

Some skeptics dispute that the rise in autism is caused by thimerosal-
tainted vaccinations. They argue that the increase is a result of
better diagnosis a theory that seems questionable at best, given that
most of the new cases of autism are clustered within a single
generation of children. If the epidemic is truly an artifact of poor
diagnosis, scoffs Dr. Boyd Haley, one of the worlds authorities on
mercury toxicity, then where are all the twenty-year-old autistics?
Other researchers point out that Americans are exposed to a greater
cumulative load of mercury than ever before, from contaminated fish to
dental fillings, and suggest that thimerosal in vaccines may be only
part of a much larger problem. Its a concern that certainly deserves
far more attention than it has received but it overlooks the fact that
the mercury concentrations in vaccines dwarf other sources of exposure
to our children.

What is most striking is the lengths to which many of the leading
detectives have gone to ignore and cover up the evidence against
thimerosal. From the very beginning, the scientific case against the
mercury additive has been overwhelming. The preservative, which is
used to stem fungi and bacterial growth in vaccines, contains
ethylmercury, a potent neurotoxin. Truckloads of studies have shown
that mercury tends to accumulate in the brains of primates and other
animals after they are injected with vaccines and that the developing
brains of infants are particularly susceptible. In 1977, a Russian
study found that adults exposed to much lower concentrations of
ethylmercury than those given to American children still suffered
brain damage years later. Russia banned thimerosal from childrens
vaccines twenty years ago, and Denmark, Austria, Japan, Great Britain
and all the Scandinavian countries have since followed suit.

You couldn't even construct a study that shows thimerosal is safe,
says Haley, who heads the chemistry department at the University of
Kentucky. Its just too darn toxic. If you inject thimerosal into an
animal, its brain will sicken. If you apply it to living tissue, the
cells die. If you put it in a Petri dish, the culture dies. Knowing
these things, it would be shocking if one could inject it into an
infant without causing damage.

Internal documents reveal that Eli Lilly, which first developed
thimerosal, knew from the start that its product could cause damage
and even death in both animals and humans. In 1930, the company tested
thimerosal by administering it to twenty-two patients with terminal
meningitis, all of whom died within weeks of being injected a fact
Lilly didnt bother to report in its study declaring thimerosal safe.
In 1935, researchers at another vaccine manufacturer, Pittman-Moore,
warned Lilly that its claims about thimerosals safety did not check
with ours. Half the dogs Pittman injected with thimerosal-based
vaccines became sick, leading researchers there to declare the
preservative unsatisfactory as a serum intended for use on dogs.

In the decades that followed, the evidence against thimerosal
continued to mount. During the Second World War, when the Department
of Defense used the preservative in vaccines on soldiers, it required
Lilly to label it poison. In 1967, a study in Applied Microbiology
found that thimerosal killed mice when added to injected vaccines.
Four years later, Lillys own studies discerned that thimerosal was
toxic to tissue cells in concentrations as low as one part per million
100 times weaker than the concentration in a typical vaccine. Even so,
the company continued to promote thimerosal as nontoxic and also
incorporated it into topical disinfectants. In 1977, ten babies at a
Toronto hospital died when an antiseptic preserved with thimerosal was
dabbed onto their umbilical cords.

In 1982, the FDA proposed a ban on over-the-counter products that
contained thimerosal, and in 1991 the agency considered banning it
from animal vaccines. But tragically, that same year, the CDC
recommended that infants be injected with a series of mercury-laced
vaccines. Newborns would be vaccinated for hepatitis B within twenty-
four hours of birth, and two-month-old infants would be immunized for
haemophilus influenza B and diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis.

The drug industry knew the additional vaccines posed a danger. The
same year that the CDC approved the new vaccines, Dr. Maurice
Hilleman, one of the fathers of Mercks vaccine programs, warned the
company that six-month-olds who were administered the shots would
suffer dangerous exposure to mercury. He recommended that thimerosal
be discontinued, especially when used on infants and children, noting
that the industry knew of nontoxic alternatives. The best way to go,
he added, is to switch to dispensing the actual vaccines without
adding preservatives.

For Merck and other drug companies, however, the obstacle was money.
Thimerosal enables the pharmaceutical industry to package vaccines in
vials that contain multiple doses, which require additional protection
because they are more easily contaminated by multiple needle entries.
The larger vials cost half as much to produce as smaller, single-dose
vials, making it cheaper for international agencies to distribute them
to impoverished regions at risk of epidemics. Faced with this cost
consideration, Merck ignored Hillemans warnings, and government
officials continued to push more and more thimerosal-based vaccines
for children. Before 1989, American preschoolers received eleven
vaccinations for polio, diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and measles-mumps-
rubella. A decade later, thanks to federal recommendations, children
were receiving a total of twenty-two immunizations by the time they
reached first grade.

As the number of vaccines increased, the rate of autism among children
exploded. During the 1990s, 40 million children were injected with
thimerosal-based vaccines, receiving unprecedented levels of mercury
during a period critical for brain development. Despite the well-
documented dangers of thimerosal, it appears that no one bothered to
add up the cumulative dose of mercury that children would receive from
the mandated vaccines. What took the FDA so long to do the
calculations? Peter Patriarca, director of viral products for the
agency, asked in an e-mail to the CDC in 1999. Why didn't CDC and the
advisory bodies do these calculations when they rapidly expanded the
childhood immunization schedule?

But by that time, the damage was done. At two months, when the infant
brain is still at a critical stage of development, infants routinely
received three inoculations that contained a total of 62.5 micrograms
of ethylmercury a level 99 times greater than the EPAs limit for daily
exposure to methylmercury, a related neurotoxin. Although the vaccine
industry insists that ethylmercury poses little danger because it
breaks down rapidly and is removed by the body, several studies
including one published in April by the National Institutes of Health
suggest that ethylmercury is actually more toxic to developing brains
and stays in the brain longer than methylmercury.

Officials responsible for childhood immunizations insist that the
additional vaccines were necessary to protect infants from disease and
that thimerosal is still essential in developing nations, which, they
often claim, cannot afford the single-dose vials that dont require a
preservative. Dr. Paul Offit, one of CDCs top vaccine advisers, told
me, I think if we really have an influenza pandemic and certainly we
will in the next twenty years, because we always do theres no way on
Gods earth that we immunize 280 million people with single-dose vials.
There has to be multidose vials.

But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many
of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional
vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committees
chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and
was part of a team that developed the measles vaccine and brought it
to licensure in 1963. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member,
worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received
honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B
vaccine.

Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such
conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC
routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to
serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on
new vaccines, even though they have interests in the products and
companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased
oversight. The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four
of the eight CDC advisers who approved guidelines for a rotavirus
vaccine had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were
developing different versions of the vaccine.

Offit, who shares a patent on one of the vaccines, acknowledged to me
that he would make money if his vote eventually leads to a marketable
product. But he dismissed my suggestion that a scientist's direct
financial stake in CDC approval might bias his judgment. It provides
no conflict for me, he insists.

Other vaccine scientists and regulators gave me similar assurances.
Like Offit, they view themselves as enlightened guardians of
children's health, proud of their partnerships with pharmaceutical
companies, immune to the seductions of personal profit, besieged by
irrational activists whose anti-vaccine campaigns are endangering
children's health. They are often resentful of questioning. Science,
says Offit, is best left to scientists.

Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent
conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999,
Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to
adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. Im
not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception
that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep
at the switch re: thimerosal until now, Patriarca wrote. The close
ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he
added, will also raise questions about various advisory bodies
regarding aggressive recommendations for use of thimerosal in child
vaccines.

If federal regulators and government scientists failed to grasp the
potential risks of thimerosal over the years, no one could claim
ignorance after the secret meeting at Simpsonwood. But rather than
conduct more studies to test the link to autism and other forms of
brain damage, the CDC placed politics over science. The agency turned
its database on childhood vaccines which had been developed largely at
taxpayer expense over to a private agency, Americas Health Insurance
Plans, ensuring that it could not be used for additional research. It
also instructed the Institute of Medicine, an advisory organization
that is part of the National Academy of Sciences, to produce a study
debunking the link between thimerosal and brain disorders.



The CDC wants us to declare, well, that these things are pretty safe,
Dr. Marie McCormick, who chaired the IOMs Immunization Safety Review
Committee, told her fellow researchers when they first met in January
2001. We are not ever going to come down that [autism] is a true side
effect of thimerosal exposure. According to transcripts of the
meeting, the committees chief staffer, Kathleen Stratton, predicted
that the IOM would conclude that the evidence was inadequate to accept
or reject a causal relation between thimerosal and autism. That, she
added, was the result Walt -- wants a reference to Dr. Walter
Orenstein, director of the National Immunization Program for the CDC.

For those who had devoted their lives to promoting vaccination, the
revelations about thimerosal threatened to undermine everything they
had worked for. We've got a dragon by the tail here, said Dr. Michael
Kaback, another committee member. The more negative that [our]
presentation is, the less likely people are to use vaccination,
immunization and we know what the results of that will be. We are kind
of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of the trap, I think is
the charge.

Even in public, federal officials made it clear that their primary
goal in studying thimerosal was to dispel doubts about vaccines. Four
current studies are taking place to rule out the proposed link between
autism and thimerosal, Dr. Gordon Douglas, then-director of strategic
planning for vaccine research at the National Institutes of Health,
assured a Princeton University gathering in May 2001. In order to undo
the harmful effects of research claiming to link the [measles] vaccine
to an elevated risk of autism, we need to conduct and publicize
additional studies to assure parents of safety. Douglas formerly
served as president of vaccinations for Merck, where he ignored
warnings about thimerosals risks.

In May of last year, the Institute of Medicine issued its final
report. Its conclusion: There is no proven link between autism and
thimerosal in vaccines. Rather than reviewing the large body of
literature describing the toxicity of thimerosal, the report relied on
four disastrously flawed epidemiological studies examining European
countries, where children received much smaller doses of thimerosal
than American kids. It also cited a new version of the Verstraeten
study, published in the journal Pediatrics, that had been reworked to
reduce the link between thimerosal and autism. The new study included
children too young to have been diagnosed with autism and overlooked
others who showed signs of the disease. The IOM declared the case
closed and in a startling position for a scientific body recommended
that no further research be conducted.

The report may have satisfied the CDC, but it convinced no one. Rep.
David Weldon, a Republican physician from Florida who serves on the
House Government Reform Committee, attacked the Institute of Medicine,
saying it relied on a handful of studies that were fatally flawed by
poor design and failed to represent all the available scientific and
medical research. CDC officials are not interested in an honest search
for the truth, Weldon told me, because an association between vaccines
and autism would force them to admit that their policies irreparably
damaged thousands of children. Who would want to make that conclusion
about themselves?

Under pressure from Congress and parents, the Institute of Medicine
convened another panel to address continuing concerns about the
Vaccine Safety Datalink Data Sharing program. In February, the new
panel, composed of different scientists, criticized the way the VSD
had been used in the Verstraeten study, and urged the CDC to make its
vaccine database available to the public.

So far, though, only two scientists have managed to gain access. Dr.
Mark Geier, president of the Genetics Center of America, and his son,
David, spent a year battling to obtain the medical records from the
CDC. Since August 2002, when members of Congress pressured the agency
to turn over the data, the Geiers have completed six studies that
demonstrate a powerful correlation between thimerosal and neurological
damage in children. One study, which compares the cumulative dose of
mercury received by children born between 1981 and 1985 with those
born between 1990 and 1996, found a very significant relationship
between autism and vaccines. Another study of educational performance
found that kids who received higher doses of thimerosal in vaccines
were nearly three times as likely to be diagnosed with autism and more
than three times as likely to suffer from speech disorders and mental
retardation. Another soon-to-be published study shows that autism
rates are in decline following the recent elimination of thimerosal
from most vaccines.

As the federal government worked to prevent scientists from studying
vaccines, others have stepped in to study the link to autism. In
April, reporter Dan Olmsted of UPI undertook one of the more
interesting studies himself. Searching for children who had not been
exposed to mercury in vaccines the kind of population that scientists
typically use as a control in experiments Olmsted scoured the Amish of
Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, who refuse to immunize their infants.
Given the national rate of autism, Olmsted calculated that there
should be 130 autistics among the Amish. He found only four. One had
been exposed to high levels of mercury from a power plant. The other
three including one child adopted from outside the Amish community had
received their vaccines.

At the state level, many officials have also conducted in-depth
reviews of thimerosal. While the Institute of Medicine was busy
whitewashing the risks, the Iowa legislature was carefully combing
through all of the available scientific and biological data. After
three years of review, I became convinced there was sufficient
credible research to show a link between mercury and the increased
incidences in autism, says state Sen. Ken Veenstra, a Republican who
oversaw the investigation. The fact of a 700 percent increase in
autism that began in the 1990s, right after more and more vaccines
were added to the children's vaccine schedules, is solid evidence
alone. Last year, Iowa became the first state to ban mercury in
vaccines, followed by California. Similar bans are now under
consideration in thirty-two other states.

But instead of following suit, the FDA continues to allow
manufacturers to include thimerosal in scores of over-the-counter
medications as well as steroids and injected collagen. Even more
alarming, the government continues to ship vaccines preserved with
thimerosal to developing countries some of which are now experiencing
a sudden explosion in autism rates. In China, where the disease was
virtually unknown prior to the introduction of thimerosal by U.S. drug
manufacturers in 1999, news reports indicate that there are now more
than 1.8 million autistics. Although reliable numbers are hard to come
by, autistic disorders also appear to be soaring in India, Argentina,
Nicaragua and other developing countries that are now using thimerosal-
laced vaccines. The World Health Organization continues to insist
thimerosal is safe, but it promises to keep the possibility that it is
linked to neurological disorders under review.

I devoted time to study this issue because I believe that this is a
moral crisis that must be addressed. If, as the evidence suggests, our
public-health authorities knowingly allowed the pharmaceutical
industry to poison an entire generation of American children, their
actions arguably constitute one of the biggest scandals in the annals
of American medicine. The CDC is guilty of incompetence and gross
negligence, says Mark Blaxill, vice president of Safe Minds, a
nonprofit organization concerned about the role of mercury in
medicines. The damage caused by vaccine exposure is massive. Its
bigger than asbestos, bigger than tobacco, bigger than anything youve
ever seen.

Its hard to calculate the damage to our country and to the
international efforts to eradicate epidemic diseases if Third World
nations come to believe that Americas most heralded foreign-aid
initiative is poisoning their children. Its not difficult to predict
how this scenario will be interpreted by Americas enemies abroad. The
scientists and researchers many of them sincere, even idealistic who
are participating in efforts to hide the science on thimerosal claim
that they are trying to advance the lofty goal of protecting children
in developing nations from disease pandemics. They are badly
misguided. Their failure to come clean on thimerosal will come back
horribly to haunt our country and the worlds poorest populations.

An earlier version of this story stated that the Institute of Medicine
convened a second panel to review the work of the Immunization Safety
Review Committee that had found no evidence of a link between
thimerosal and autism. In fact, the IOM convened the second panel to
address continuing concerns about the Vaccine Safety Datalink Data
Sharing program, including those raised by critics of the IOMs earlier
work. But the panel was not charged with reviewing the committees
findings. The story also inadvertently omitted a word and transposed
two sentences in a quote by Dr. John Clements, and incorrectly stated
that Dr. Sam Katz held a patent with Merck on the measles vaccine. In
fact, Dr. Katz was part of a team that developed the vaccine and
brought it to licensure, but he never held the patent. Salon and
Rolling Stone regret the errors.

CLARIFICATION: After publication of this story, Salon and Rolling
Stone corrected an error that misstated the level of ethylmercury
received by infants injected with all their shots by the age of six
months. It was 187 micrograms -- an amount forty percent, not 187
times, greater than the EPAs limit for daily exposure to
methylmercury. At the time of the correction, we were aware that the
comparison itself was flawed, but as journalists we considered it more
appropriate to state the correct figure rather than replace it with
another number entirely.

Since that earlier correction, however, it has become clear from
responses to the article that the forty-percent number, while
accurate, is misleading. It measures the total mercury load an infant
received from vaccines during the first six months, calculates the
daily average received based on average body weight, and then compares
that number to the EPA daily limit. But infants did not receive the
vaccines as a ?daily average? ? they received massive doses on a
single day, through multiple shots. As the story states, these single-
day doses exceeded the EPA limit by as much as 99 times. Based on the
misunderstanding, and to avoid further confusion, we have amended the
story to eliminate the forty-percent figure.

Correction: The story misattributed a quote to Andy Olson, former
legislative counsel to Senator Bill Frist. The comment was made by
Dean Rosen, health policy adviser to the senator. Rolling Stone and
Salon.com regret the error.

Kennedy Report Sparks Controversy

 Deadly Immunity, our story about the link between mercury in vaccines
and the dramatic rise in autism among children [RS 977/978], sparked
intense reaction from the medical establishment and several leading
news organizations. The story, by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. part of an
ongoing collaboration with Salon.com documented the governments
efforts to conceal alarming data about the dangers of vaccines.

What is most striking is the lengths to which major media outlets have
gone to disparage the story and to calm public fears even in the face
of the questionable science on the subject. In a segment on World News
Tonight titled A Closer Look, ABC pointed out that Kennedy is not a
scientist or a doctor and dismissed his extensive evidence as nothing
more than a few scientific studies. The network also trotted out its
medical editor, Dr. Timothy Johnson, to praise the impeccably
impartial Institute of Medicine and to again state that Kennedy is not
a scientist.

The New York Times, in a front-page story on the subject, devoted only
one line to Kennedys article, which it said accused public-health
officials and drugmakers of conspiring to hide the data on autism a
word that our story neither used nor implied. (The Wall Street
Journal, in an op-ed attacking the article, was even more misleading,
using the word conspiracy four times.) The Times then went on, for
more than a full page, to portray concerns over vaccines as nothing
more than the misguided fears of parents who suffer from scientific
illiteracy, unable to understand the medical studies that prove
immunizations to be safe. It depicted studies reviewed by the
Institute of Medicine as definitive without even bothering to address
the host of serious questions raised about their validity: conflicting
diagnoses of autism, mixed-up data from HMOs and research skewed to
exclude many sick kids.

Rolling Stone and Salon fact-checked the article thoroughly before
publication, insisting on primary documentation for every statement in
the story, and posted links to the most significant materials online
to enable readers to judge for themselves. The final article contained
six errors. These ranged from inadvertently transposing a quote and
confusing a drug license for a patent to relying on a figure that
incorrectly calculated an infants exposure to mercury over six months,
rather than citing the even more dangerous amount injected on a single
day. (The mistakes were corrected online as soon as they were
discovered and can be viewed in detail at both RollingStone.com and
Salon.com.)

It is important to note, however, that none of the mistakes weaken the
primary point of the story. The governments own records show that it
has failed to do the science necessary to put to rest reasonable
concerns about vaccines. If the scientists had simply done their job
rather than covering their tracks, there would be no controversy
today. Instead, the government cannot even provide a definitive figure
of the number of cases of autism among American children a number
obviously critical to any serious scientific investigation and yet
expects the public to believe that it has ruled out any link between
vaccines and an illness it does not even track.

Science, as one doctor in our story insisted, is best left to
scientists. But when the scientists fail to do their job, resorting to
closed-door meetings and rigged studies, others in society have not
only a right but a moral obligation to question their work. In the
coming years, further research may indeed demonstrate that mercury in
vaccines is not responsible for the rise in autism.



For now, though, we can only raise a very real and legitimate alarm
and hope that the governments well-documented mishandling of its own
research did not needlessly jeopardize the health of hundreds of
thousands of children.





BOTTOM LINE COMMENT


What Robert Kennedy discreetly failed to mention is that full spectrum
autism also afflicts adults with a narrowing of one’s paradigm and
ability to process new information of an in-depth nature… AND
VACCINATIONS WHACK ADULTS AS WELL AS CHILDREN… UNTIL THEY BECOME LIKE
CHILDREN (with little discernment).

Michael Swift wrote:

> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
> as that.

What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
Tamiflu doses?

I'm also curious on what basis you decided the risk of Tamiflu side
effects were less of a concern than the risk of succumbing to porcine
flu?

N5

Health is about HYGIENE.

Disease is about LACK OF HYGIENE.

VACCINES ARE SHIT.

Injecting SHIT into your children is the opposite of HYGIENE.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Vaccination Fraud (Rattigan / Mendelsohn)
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dddp6bt4_126hgz9s8fb

November 5 wrote:
> 
> Michael Swift wrote:
> 
>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>> as that.
> 
> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
> Tamiflu doses?

Proof of identity of both them and the patient.

They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.



-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

William Black wrote:
> November 5 wrote:
> >
> > Michael Swift wrote:
> >
> >> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
> >> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
> >> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
> >> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
> >> as that.
> >
> > What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
> > Tamiflu doses?
>
> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
>
> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.

Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?

N5

"November 5"  wrote in message 
news:159c4b65-c40f-4331-8299-81ed5d744536@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> William Black wrote:
>> November 5 wrote:
>> >
>> > Michael Swift wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>> >> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>> >> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>> >> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>> >> as that.
>> >
>> > What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
>> > Tamiflu doses?
>>
>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
>>
>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
>
> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
>
To ensure the right patient gets the drug.

November 5 wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> November 5 wrote:
>>> Michael Swift wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>>>> as that.
>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
>>> Tamiflu doses?
>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
>>
>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
> 
> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?

Nobody ever claimed that.

Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.

Others have to pay.


-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

In article <622df261-7a78-4f63-a44e-3eb900c08c85@s15g2000yqs.googlegroup
s.com>, November 5  writes
>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>> as that.
>
>What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get 
>Tamiflu doses? 
>
None, never asked, my decision entirely.

>I'm also curious on what basis you decided the risk of Tamiflu side 
>effects were less of a concern than the risk of succumbing to porcine 
>flu? 

Side effects are in the mind of the press, they love a good scare story.

Mike

-- 
Michael Swift           We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.      
Kirkheaton              We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.    
Yorkshire                                       Halvard Lange

William Black wrote:
> November 5 wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> November 5 wrote:
> >>> Michael Swift wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
> >>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
> >>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
> >>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
> >>>> as that.
> >>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
> >>> Tamiflu doses?
> >> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
> >>
> >> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
> >
> > Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
> > supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
>
> Nobody ever claimed that.
>
> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.

Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.

> Others have to pay.
>
>
> --
> William Black
>
> "Any number under six"
>
> The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
> Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
> single handed with a quarterstaff.

November 5 wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> November 5 wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>> Michael Swift wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>>>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>>>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>>>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>>>>>> as that.
>>>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
>>>>> Tamiflu doses?
>>>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
>>>>
>>>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
>>> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
>>> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
>> Nobody ever claimed that.
>>
>> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.
> 
> Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.

These days there aren't any.

Any foreign national is required to prove their residential status 
before being treated in an NHS hospital.

-- 

William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

William Black wrote:
> November 5 wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> November 5 wrote:
> >>> William Black wrote:
> >>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>> Michael Swift wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
> >>>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
> >>>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
> >>>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
> >>>>>> as that.
> >>>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
> >>>>> Tamiflu doses?
> >>>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
> >>>>
> >>>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
> >>> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
> >>> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
> >> Nobody ever claimed that.
> >>
> >> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.
> >
> > Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.
>
> These days there aren't any.

Emergencies excepted.

> Any foreign national is required to prove their residential status
> before being treated in an NHS hospital.

Give me a random name (Mickey Mouse), pay me £150 for 15 minutes of my
time (my absolute minimum hourly rate) and I'll prepare a utility bill
for you (with large letters "SAMPLE" emblazoned across) in your
nominated name.

Dumb in theory, extra dumb in practice. Like most Communist schemes.

N5

November 5 wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> November 5 wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>>> Michael Swift wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>>>>>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>>>>>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>>>>>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>>>>>>>> as that.
>>>>>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
>>>>>>> Tamiflu doses?
>>>>>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
>>>>> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
>>>>> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
>>>> Nobody ever claimed that.
>>>>
>>>> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.
>>> Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.
>> These days there aren't any.
> 
> Emergencies excepted.
> 
>> Any foreign national is required to prove their residential status
>> before being treated in an NHS hospital.
> 
> Give me a random name (Mickey Mouse), pay me £150 for 15 minutes of my
> time (my absolute minimum hourly rate) and I'll prepare a utility bill
> for you (with large letters "SAMPLE" emblazoned across) in your
> nominated name.

The last time I was involved in such a check the letter said 'Please 
bring documents that prove your entitlement' which usually  means either 
a passport with a valid residential visa in it or a Home Office letter 
saying you have the right to stay in the UK.

I have no idea if they accept bills from utility companies or not,  I 
assume you have...


-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

William Black wrote:
> November 5 wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> November 5 wrote:
> >>> William Black wrote:
> >>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>> William Black wrote:
> >>>>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>>>> Michael Swift wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
> >>>>>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
> >>>>>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
> >>>>>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
> >>>>>>>> as that.
> >>>>>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
> >>>>>>> Tamiflu doses?
> >>>>>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
> >>>>> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
> >>>>> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
> >>>> Nobody ever claimed that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.
> >>> Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.
> >> These days there aren't any.
> >
> > Emergencies excepted.
> >
> >> Any foreign national is required to prove their residential status
> >> before being treated in an NHS hospital.
> >
> > Give me a random name (Mickey Mouse), pay me �150 for 15 minutes of my
> > time (my absolute minimum hourly rate) and I'll prepare a utility bill
> > for you (with large letters "SAMPLE" emblazoned across) in your
> > nominated name.
>
> The last time I was involved in such a check the letter said 'Please
> bring documents that prove your entitlement' which usually  means either
> a passport with a valid residential visa in it or a Home Office letter
> saying you have the right to stay in the UK.

Passports are a bit more tricky but counterfeit ones are available if
you know who to ask (of course I don't) and the money to pay.
Sophisticated ones can even fool the RFID checks (of course I don't
know how).

> I have no idea if they accept bills from utility companies or not,  I
> assume you have...

Not everyone has a passport or driving license.

Also, I am aware of at least one major bank which doesn't require
proof of ID to open an account. You just *tell* them your name, DOB,
arrange security details and they do it for you.

N5

November 5 wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:
>> November 5 wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>>> William Black wrote:
>>>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Michael Swift wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
>>>>>>>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
>>>>>>>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
>>>>>>>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
>>>>>>>>>> as that.
>>>>>>>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
>>>>>>>>> Tamiflu doses?
>>>>>>>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
>>>>>>> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
>>>>>>> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
>>>>>> Nobody ever claimed that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.
>>>>> Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.
>>>> These days there aren't any.
>>> Emergencies excepted.
>>>
>>>> Any foreign national is required to prove their residential status
>>>> before being treated in an NHS hospital.
>>> Give me a random name (Mickey Mouse), pay me �150 for 15 minutes of my
>>> time (my absolute minimum hourly rate) and I'll prepare a utility bill
>>> for you (with large letters "SAMPLE" emblazoned across) in your
>>> nominated name.
>> The last time I was involved in such a check the letter said 'Please
>> bring documents that prove your entitlement' which usually  means either
>> a passport with a valid residential visa in it or a Home Office letter
>> saying you have the right to stay in the UK.
> 
> Passports are a bit more tricky but counterfeit ones are available if
> you know who to ask (of course I don't) and the money to pay.
> Sophisticated ones can even fool the RFID checks (of course I don't
> know how).

I know how,  but it takes some expensive and clever equipment,  and it 
also requires a decent fake passport.

The last time I made enquires (about two years ago) a decent quality 
forged passport cost about £1,000, without an RFID chip

>> I have no idea if they accept bills from utility companies or not,  I
>> assume you have...
> 
> Not everyone has a passport or driving license.

All foreigners resident in the UK have to have 'papers' of some kind.

> Also, I am aware of at least one major bank which doesn't require
> proof of ID to open an account. You just *tell* them your name, DOB,
> arrange security details and they do it for you.

Which one?

I've had dealings with five of them in the past half decade for an 
assortment of reasons and so far every one has made me jump through 
hoops to open an account.

It's certainly not Abbey,  Halifax-TSB,  HSBC,  Barclays,  or Lloyds...

Nat West,  the only major bank clearing who I haven't dealt with 
recently,  publish their requirements here:

http://www.natwest.com/personal/current-accounts/g2/id-required.ashx

-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

William Black wrote:
> November 5 wrote:
> >
> > William Black wrote:
> >> November 5 wrote:
> >>> William Black wrote:
> >>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>> William Black wrote:
> >>>>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>>>> William Black wrote:
> >>>>>>>> November 5 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Michael Swift wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have a couple of people in the family with the 'underlying health
> >>>>>>>>>> problems' so I played safe, went on line checked the symptom boxes and
> >>>>>>>>>> it told me I most probably had Swine Flu, gave me a number, the wife
> >>>>>>>>>> collected Tamiflu from Asda, one tablet twice a day for 5 days, simple
> >>>>>>>>>> as that.
> >>>>>>>>> What personal details did the family members have to hand over to get
> >>>>>>>>> Tamiflu doses?
> >>>>>>>> Proof of identity of both them and the patient.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> They'll take a utility bill or a driving license or passports.
> >>>>>>> Care to explain why proof of identity is important if healthcare is
> >>>>>>> supposed to be universal in our Communist utopia?
> >>>>>> Nobody ever claimed that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Only UK residents are allowed free healthcare.
> >>>>> Health tourists to the UK would disagree with you.
> >>>> These days there aren't any.
> >>> Emergencies excepted.
> >>>
> >>>> Any foreign national is required to prove their residential status
> >>>> before being treated in an NHS hospital.
> >>> Give me a random name (Mickey Mouse), pay me �150 for 15 minutes of my
> >>> time (my absolute minimum hourly rate) and I'll prepare a utility bill
> >>> for you (with large letters "SAMPLE" emblazoned across) in your
> >>> nominated name.
> >> The last time I was involved in such a check the letter said 'Please
> >> bring documents that prove your entitlement' which usually  means either
> >> a passport with a valid residential visa in it or a Home Office letter
> >> saying you have the right to stay in the UK.
> >
> > Passports are a bit more tricky but counterfeit ones are available if
> > you know who to ask (of course I don't) and the money to pay.
> > Sophisticated ones can even fool the RFID checks (of course I don't
> > know how).
>
> I know how,  but it takes some expensive and clever equipment,  and it
> also requires a decent fake passport.
>
> The last time I made enquires (about two years ago) a decent quality
> forged passport cost about £1,000, without an RFID chip

Shhh...don't want the men in black knocking on your door.

> >> I have no idea if they accept bills from utility companies or not,  I
> >> assume you have...
> >
> > Not everyone has a passport or driving license.
>
> All foreigners resident in the UK have to have 'papers' of some kind.

Yes but there is nothing stopping a foreigner present themselves as a
UK citizen who doesn't have papers (unless they are obviously
foreign).

> > Also, I am aware of at least one major bank which doesn't require
> > proof of ID to open an account. You just *tell* them your name, DOB,
> > arrange security details and they do it for you.
>
> Which one?
>
> I've had dealings with five of them in the past half decade for an
> assortment of reasons and so far every one has made me jump through
> hoops to open an account.
>
> It's certainly not Abbey,  Halifax-TSB,  HSBC,  Barclays,  or Lloyds...
>
> Nat West,  the only major bank clearing who I haven't dealt with
> recently,  publish their requirements here:
>
> http://www.natwest.com/personal/current-accounts/g2/id-required.ashx

I won't name the bank because it might lead to them changing their
policy.

All I'll say is that it was an account for high net worth individuals,
and they want a large cash deposit or security transfer at the
minimum. I thought it was most curious as you'd expect the checks for
such people to be more stringent given they have more to lose, but
there you go.

N5

November 5 wrote:
> 
> William Black wrote:


>> The last time I made enquires (about two years ago) a decent quality
>> forged passport cost about £1,000, without an RFID chip
> 
> Shhh...don't want the men in black knocking on your door.

You really do need to take more water with it.


>>> Also, I am aware of at least one major bank which doesn't require
>>> proof of ID to open an account. You just *tell* them your name, DOB,
>>> arrange security details and they do it for you.
>> Which one?
>>
>> I've had dealings with five of them in the past half decade for an
>> assortment of reasons and so far every one has made me jump through
>> hoops to open an account.
>>
>> It's certainly not Abbey,  Halifax-TSB,  HSBC,  Barclays,  or Lloyds...
>>
>> Nat West,  the only major bank clearing who I haven't dealt with
>> recently,  publish their requirements here:
>>
>> http://www.natwest.com/personal/current-accounts/g2/id-required.ashx
> 
> I won't name the bank because it might lead to them changing their
> policy.
> 
> All I'll say is that it was an account for high net worth individuals,
> and they want a large cash deposit or security transfer at the
> minimum. I thought it was most curious as you'd expect the checks for
> such people to be more stringent given they have more to lose, but
> there you go.

Try opening one if you don't already have an account there.



-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

"November 5"  wrote in message 
news:c37f7ea4-5741-4329-b4ee-c4b5dcb1cdf6@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
Will receiving the swine flu vaccine be optional, and if not by what
means can we refuse to take it?

Just say you're a Jehovah Witness or one of the other God Botherers and they 
should leave you alone

Redman

In message 
, at 
10:51:57 on Sun, 16 Aug 2009, sutartsorric  
wibbled
>
>I assume that if the swine flu virus mutates with the bird flu one,

Porcine Air will taking off from runway 38L.

-- 
Pedt

sutartsorric wrote:

> 
> I assume that if the swine flu virus mutates with the bird flu one,

Pigs might fly.

-- 
Mike