Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
money do the work.

By disbanding the police and replacing them with a newfound market for
private investigators and private security contractors, you get the
benefit of:

1. You pay for their services only when you need them, not 24/7
forcibly through taxes
2. If you don't like their service, you can terminate your contract
3. It is in their interests to keep their customers happy (not so for
the police as they have a monopoly)
4. They self-police and have no reason to keep a corrupt one in
business: one PI can check out another for dodgy dealings
5. They have no incentive to meddle unless someone is paying them to.
So they won't enforce parking restrictions along empty roads if no one
cares and they certainly wouldn't be asking for more CCTV, policing
powers, etc.

N5

Graff's jewel heist: £1m reward
A reward of £1 million has been offered in the hunt for the robbers
behind Britain's biggest jewellery heist at Graff's in London's
Mayfair.


By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent
Published: 6:17PM BST 14 Aug 2009

The insurers, Tyler and Company, have put up the large sum for
information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of
the robbers and the recovery of the £40 million worth of stolen items.

Det Ch Insp Pam Mace, of Scotland Yard's Flying Squad, said: "I think
this is the biggest reward ever been offered for a crime of this type
and I'm directing my appeal at people, and that includes criminal
associates, who know who these robbers are and where they are."

On Thursday detectives disclosed that they had recovered a loaded gun
connected to the robbery, in a potentially significant breakthrough.
It was not one of the two handguns used in the actual raid but it is
being tested for DNA samples and its links to any previous shootings.

The detective said: "Everytime we uncover new information that takes
out inquiry forward. Several lines of inquiry are ongoing but I am
happy with the way it is progressing."

While the offer of a reward is not unusual at an early stage of the
investigation, police sources suggested that there has been a lack of
leads from informants so far.

It suggests that the robbery gang may have kept the planning of the
raids tight-knit, or that they have not come up on the police
intelligence radar before. It is hoped that the huge reward will put
pressure on criminal associates to give them up.

After the biggest ever cash robbery in Britain - a £53 million heist
on a Securitas depot in Kent - an unprecedented £2m reward was
offered. Within days, police managed to locate millions of pounds
stashed in locations across Kent and south-east London.

Detectives are still trying to trace two of the three getaway cars
used in relay by the robbers to escape central London.

It emerged earlier this week that the robbers hired a make-up artist
to give them latex disguises just hours before they carried out the
raid.

An unsuspecting 29-year-old artist, who notified police and may now be
put under the witness protection programme, giving him a new identity,
altered the suspect's hair colour and skin tone in a four-hour
session. He had been led to believe they were appearing in a pop video
and was told to make them look older.

The two men changed into suits and left the studio before taxing a
black cab to Graff's, where it is believed they had set up an
appointment under a false name. They stole 43 items of jewellery,
encrusted with almost 1,500 diamonds, and fired warning shots as they
left, having briefly taken a female employee hostage.

Forensic officers have seized items including hairbrushes, gowns and
bank notes from a studio in central London to try to find DNA samples.

Investigators are still trawling through hundreds of hours of CCTV
footage to piece together the robbers' exact escape route.

They are looking for at least two accomplices who helped the men
escape last Thursday.

It is suspected that the jewels were stolen to order and police are
investigating whether an insider was involved.

Witnesses said the men had genuine London accents, despite the fact
little was said and the robbery was over in under two minutes.

Detectives arrested and questioned a 50-year-old man in Ilford, east
London, on Monday in connection with the robbery.

They suspect that the man, who has been released on bail, may have
been involved in planning the raid, although he was not in the West
End when it took place.

"November 5"  wrote in message 
news:82888377-1111-4e9c-a2f8-23bbb1c39f48@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
money do the work.

By disbanding the police and replacing them with a newfound market for
private investigators and private security contractors, you get the
benefit of:

------------------------------

Blah blah blah blah.

Seems a very low reward too. They are usually 10%

Jeremy wrote:
> Seems a very low reward too. They are usually 10%

It was probably calculated to be more than any individual's take. Thus
the temptation is to rat out on their partners.

Don't forget the high street markup is around 1000% and buyers would
be wary of buying such distinctive works so the sale price on the
black market will reflect that.

N5

You have combined both the Securitas and Graff raid info and it reads as if 
the Graff raid prosthetic applicator has been found. Also the finding of a 
non related gun.

Men with steel nerves I say.

I wonder what the insurance value actually is. Would it be manufacture or 
sale cost.

Similarly, though not a robbery, the Pink Panther Strikes Again comes to 
mind, where he (Peter Sellers) is in the castle and his prosthetic nose 
drips off. Bloody funny that.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:47:10 -0700, November 5 wrote:

> By disbanding the police and replacing them with a newfound market for
> private investigators and private security contractors, you get

pretty much what was described in million pound radio show about 7m30s 
in, a Thatcher era show I think...

Scene: After a burglary

A: "they got this new system where the more you pay the better detective 
you get..."

N: "but what if you cant pay?"

A: "they just send a uniformed constable round to sneer at what you've 
got left"

"November 5"  wrote in message 
news:82888377-1111-4e9c-a2f8-23bbb1c39f48@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
money do the work.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Done be naive.

This isn't to "catch" the robbers, it to persuade someone to grass on them. 
No-one's going to grass on them for nothing, are they?

tim

On 14 Aug, 19:47, November 5  wrote:
> Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
> robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
> money do the work.
>
> By disbanding the police and replacing them with a newfound market for
> private investigators and private security contractors, you get the
> benefit of:
>
> 1. You pay for their services only when you need them, not 24/7
> forcibly through taxes
> 2. If you don't like their service, you can terminate your contract
> 3. It is in their interests to keep their customers happy (not so for
> the police as they have a monopoly)
> 4. They self-police and have no reason to keep a corrupt one in
> business: one PI can check out another for dodgy dealings
> 5. They have no incentive to meddle unless someone is paying them to.
> So they won't enforce parking restrictions along empty roads if no one
> cares and they certainly wouldn't be asking for more CCTV, policing
> powers, etc.
>
> N5
>
> Graff's jewel heist: £1m reward
> A reward of £1 million has been offered in the hunt for the robbers
> behind Britain's biggest jewellery heist at Graff's in London's
> Mayfair.
>
> By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent
> Published: 6:17PM BST 14 Aug 2009
>
> The insurers, Tyler and Company, have put up the large sum for
> information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of
> the robbers and the recovery of the £40 million worth of stolen items.
>
> Det Ch Insp Pam Mace, of Scotland Yard's Flying Squad, said: "I think
> this is the biggest reward ever been offered for a crime of this type
> and I'm directing my appeal at people, and that includes criminal
> associates, who know who these robbers are and where they are."
>
> On Thursday detectives disclosed that they had recovered a loaded gun
> connected to the robbery, in a potentially significant breakthrough.
> It was not one of the two handguns used in the actual raid but it is
> being tested for DNA samples and its links to any previous shootings.
>
> The detective said: "Everytime we uncover new information that takes
> out inquiry forward. Several lines of inquiry are ongoing but I am
> happy with the way it is progressing."
>
> While the offer of a reward is not unusual at an early stage of the
> investigation, police sources suggested that there has been a lack of
> leads from informants so far.
>
> It suggests that the robbery gang may have kept the planning of the
> raids tight-knit, or that they have not come up on the police
> intelligence radar before. It is hoped that the huge reward will put
> pressure on criminal associates to give them up.
>
> After the biggest ever cash robbery in Britain - a £53 million heist
> on a Securitas depot in Kent - an unprecedented £2m reward was
> offered. Within days, police managed to locate millions of pounds
> stashed in locations across Kent and south-east London.
>
> Detectives are still trying to trace two of the three getaway cars
> used in relay by the robbers to escape central London.
>
> It emerged earlier this week that the robbers hired a make-up artist
> to give them latex disguises just hours before they carried out the
> raid.
>
> An unsuspecting 29-year-old artist, who notified police and may now be
> put under the witness protection programme, giving him a new identity,
> altered the suspect's hair colour and skin tone in a four-hour
> session. He had been led to believe they were appearing in a pop video
> and was told to make them look older.
>
> The two men changed into suits and left the studio before taxing a
> black cab to Graff's, where it is believed they had set up an
> appointment under a false name. They stole 43 items of jewellery,
> encrusted with almost 1,500 diamonds, and fired warning shots as they
> left, having briefly taken a female employee hostage.
>
> Forensic officers have seized items including hairbrushes, gowns and
> bank notes from a studio in central London to try to find DNA samples.
>
> Investigators are still trawling through hundreds of hours of CCTV
> footage to piece together the robbers' exact escape route.
>
> They are looking for at least two accomplices who helped the men
> escape last Thursday.
>
> It is suspected that the jewels were stolen to order and police are
> investigating whether an insider was involved.
>
> Witnesses said the men had genuine London accents, despite the fact
> little was said and the robbery was over in under two minutes.
>
> Detectives arrested and questioned a 50-year-old man in Ilford, east
> London, on Monday in connection with the robbery.
>
> They suspect that the man, who has been released on bail, may have
> been involved in planning the raid, although he was not in the West
> End when it took place.

We need armed police who shoot to kill robbers.

tim..... wrote:
> "November 5"  wrote in message
> news:82888377-1111-4e9c-a2f8-23bbb1c39f48@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
> robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
> money do the work.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Done be naive.
>
> This isn't to "catch" the robbers, it to persuade someone to grass on them.
> No-one's going to grass on them for nothing, are they?
>
> tim

The police could have stumped up the bounty instead of the victim
then! Where is this concept of collective, universal policing I hear
so much about?

So do you admit that the current system of policing is flawed without
intervention of victims?

N5

"President AfterIhadmyDinnerDad"  wrote in 
message 
news:94846bfe-2fdb-4030-8536-19f561d0725a@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On 14 Aug, 19:47, November 5  wrote:
> Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
> robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
> money do the work.
>
> By disbanding the police and replacing them with a newfound market for
> private investigators and private security contractors, you get the
> benefit of:
>
> 1. You pay for their services only when you need them, not 24/7
> forcibly through taxes
> 2. If you don't like their service, you can terminate your contract
> 3. It is in their interests to keep their customers happy (not so for
> the police as they have a monopoly)
> 4. They self-police and have no reason to keep a corrupt one in
> business: one PI can check out another for dodgy dealings
> 5. They have no incentive to meddle unless someone is paying them to.
> So they won't enforce parking restrictions along empty roads if no one
> cares and they certainly wouldn't be asking for more CCTV, policing
> powers, etc.
>
> N5
>
> Graff's jewel heist: £1m reward
> A reward of £1 million has been offered in the hunt for the robbers
> behind Britain's biggest jewellery heist at Graff's in London's
> Mayfair.
>
> By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent
> Published: 6:17PM BST 14 Aug 2009
>
> The insurers, Tyler and Company, have put up the large sum for
> information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of
> the robbers and the recovery of the £40 million worth of stolen items.
>
> Det Ch Insp Pam Mace, of Scotland Yard's Flying Squad, said: "I think
> this is the biggest reward ever been offered for a crime of this type
> and I'm directing my appeal at people, and that includes criminal
> associates, who know who these robbers are and where they are."
>
> On Thursday detectives disclosed that they had recovered a loaded gun
> connected to the robbery, in a potentially significant breakthrough.
> It was not one of the two handguns used in the actual raid but it is
> being tested for DNA samples and its links to any previous shootings.
>
> The detective said: "Everytime we uncover new information that takes
> out inquiry forward. Several lines of inquiry are ongoing but I am
> happy with the way it is progressing."
>
> While the offer of a reward is not unusual at an early stage of the
> investigation, police sources suggested that there has been a lack of
> leads from informants so far.
>
> It suggests that the robbery gang may have kept the planning of the
> raids tight-knit, or that they have not come up on the police
> intelligence radar before. It is hoped that the huge reward will put
> pressure on criminal associates to give them up.
>
> After the biggest ever cash robbery in Britain - a £53 million heist
> on a Securitas depot in Kent - an unprecedented £2m reward was
> offered. Within days, police managed to locate millions of pounds
> stashed in locations across Kent and south-east London.
>
> Detectives are still trying to trace two of the three getaway cars
> used in relay by the robbers to escape central London.
>
> It emerged earlier this week that the robbers hired a make-up artist
> to give them latex disguises just hours before they carried out the
> raid.
>
> An unsuspecting 29-year-old artist, who notified police and may now be
> put under the witness protection programme, giving him a new identity,
> altered the suspect's hair colour and skin tone in a four-hour
> session. He had been led to believe they were appearing in a pop video
> and was told to make them look older.
>
> The two men changed into suits and left the studio before taxing a
> black cab to Graff's, where it is believed they had set up an
> appointment under a false name. They stole 43 items of jewellery,
> encrusted with almost 1,500 diamonds, and fired warning shots as they
> left, having briefly taken a female employee hostage.
>
> Forensic officers have seized items including hairbrushes, gowns and
> bank notes from a studio in central London to try to find DNA samples.
>
> Investigators are still trawling through hundreds of hours of CCTV
> footage to piece together the robbers' exact escape route.
>
> They are looking for at least two accomplices who helped the men
> escape last Thursday.
>
> It is suspected that the jewels were stolen to order and police are
> investigating whether an insider was involved.
>
> Witnesses said the men had genuine London accents, despite the fact
> little was said and the robbery was over in under two minutes.
>
> Detectives arrested and questioned a 50-year-old man in Ilford, east
> London, on Monday in connection with the robbery.
>
> They suspect that the man, who has been released on bail, may have
> been involved in planning the raid, although he was not in the West
> End when it took place.

>We need armed police who shoot to kill robbers.

and suspect terrorists...like Jean Charles de Menezes.

On Aug 14, 9:02 pm, November 5 
wrote:
> Jeremy wrote:
> > Seems a very low reward too. They are usually 10%
>
> It was probably calculated to be more than any individual's take. Thus
> the temptation is to rat out on their partners.
>
> Don't forget the high street markup is around 1000% and buyers would
> be wary of buying such distinctive works so the sale price on the
> black market will reflect that.
>
> N5

Wouldn't they just recycle the goods. Is there anything distinctive
about the stones that would allow them to be identified? Could the
gold & silver not melted down and turned into other items of
jewellery? If if that reduced the value they would still be worth a
lot.

Stephen2 wrote:
> On Aug 14, 9:02 pm, November 5 
> wrote:
> > Jeremy wrote:
> > > Seems a very low reward too. They are usually 10%
> >
> > It was probably calculated to be more than any individual's take. Thus
> > the temptation is to rat out on their partners.
> >
> > Don't forget the high street markup is around 1000% and buyers would
> > be wary of buying such distinctive works so the sale price on the
> > black market will reflect that.
> >
> > N5
>
> Wouldn't they just recycle the goods. Is there anything distinctive
> about the stones that would allow them to be identified? Could the
> gold & silver not melted down and turned into other items of
> jewellery? If if that reduced the value they would still be worth a
> lot.

I think Graffs specialises in gems of unique colour and inclusions.
Hence the belief they were stolen to order or will be broken apart.

N5

"November 5"  wrote in message 
news:e817026f-75dd-4618-9872-5d035e3b5b0a@g10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> tim..... wrote:
>> "November 5"  wrote in message
>> news:82888377-1111-4e9c-a2f8-23bbb1c39f48@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>> Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
>> robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
>> money do the work.
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Done be naive.
>>
>> This isn't to "catch" the robbers, it to persuade someone to grass on 
>> them.
>> No-one's going to grass on them for nothing, are they?
>>
>> tim
>
> The police could have stumped up the bounty instead of the victim
> then!

They could.  But the financial loss sufferer by the insurers is likely to be 
much larger then the police's cost of investigating.  This isn't a murder 
the police aren't going to try to solve this at any cost.

>Where is this concept of collective, universal policing I hear
> so much about?
>
> So do you admit that the current system of policing is flawed without
> intervention of victims?

Where did I say that?

tim

tim..... wrote:
> "November 5"  wrote in message
> news:e817026f-75dd-4618-9872-5d035e3b5b0a@g10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > tim..... wrote:
> >> "November 5"  wrote in message
> >> news:82888377-1111-4e9c-a2f8-23bbb1c39f48@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> >> Clearly, if the insurers had any confidence in the police catching the
> >> robbers and recovering the jewels, they would have just let their tax
> >> money do the work.
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Done be naive.
> >>
> >> This isn't to "catch" the robbers, it to persuade someone to grass on
> >> them.
> >> No-one's going to grass on them for nothing, are they?
> >>
> >> tim
> >
> > The police could have stumped up the bounty instead of the victim
> > then!
>
> They could.  But the financial loss sufferer by the insurers is likely to be
> much larger then the police's cost of investigating.

But those insurers are paying tax just like us to have their rights
protected by the police. The police have no right to pick and choose
cushy jobs on the basis of their perceived value if the victims paid
taxes just like everyone else.

> This isn't a murder
> the police aren't going to try to solve this at any cost.

If they didn't pay their taxes and went to Mafiosi, private
investigators and private security firms instead, do you think these
alternatives would be less motivated than the police to find them?

> >Where is this concept of collective, universal policing I hear
> > so much about?
> >
> > So do you admit that the current system of policing is flawed without
> > intervention of victims?
>
> Where did I say that?

Clearly if the police were thought to be capable of solving this case
without the victims getting involved, they would have been left to do
their business without interference.

Why oh why doesn't it dawn on people that the police are nothing more
than a legal protection racket with a monopoly.

N5

Stephen2 wrote:
> On Aug 14, 9:02 pm, November 5 
> wrote:
>> Jeremy wrote:
>>> Seems a very low reward too. They are usually 10%
>> It was probably calculated to be more than any individual's take. Thus
>> the temptation is to rat out on their partners.
>>
>> Don't forget the high street markup is around 1000% and buyers would
>> be wary of buying such distinctive works so the sale price on the
>> black market will reflect that.
>>
>> N5
> 
> Wouldn't they just recycle the goods. Is there anything distinctive
> about the stones that would allow them to be identified? Could the
> gold & silver not melted down and turned into other items of
> jewellery? If if that reduced the value they would still be worth a
> lot.

Ninty percent of the value will be in the design,  fifty percent of 
what's left will be in the workmanship,  the value of the stuff broken 
could well be only about two million quid...


-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.