"Spay Incontinence" / "Leaking" / "Spraying" / "Marking" / "Urinating At Night" / Thyroid / Urologic / HOWEsbreaking / Crating / Abuse / Panic Disorders And Bladder Problems - Archives of General Psychiatry - INSANITY And LIES: The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome <{) ; ~ ) >
From The Annals Of Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_
Research_Laboratory
AND
COLLEGE OF HARD KNOCKXXX
<{}: ~ ( >
"Spay Incontinence" / "Leaking" / "Spraying" / "Marking" / "Urinating
At Night" /
Thyroid / Urologic / HOWEsbreaking / Crating / Abuse /
Panic Disorders And Bladder Problems
Archives of General Psychiatry
INSANITY And LIES:
The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome <{) ; ~ ) >
Archives of General Psychiatry
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/3/273
The seemingly disparate conditions of panic disorder and
interstitial cystitis may be components of an, as yet,
unidentified genetic syndrome, suggest study findings
published in the Archives of General Psychiatry.
Evidence from a genetic linkage study had indicated a possible
syndrome in some families with panic disorder that may include
bladder problems, thyroid disorders, chronic headaches or
mitral valve prolapse.
To better determine the nature of the urologic problems, and
the relationship between such problems and panic disorder,
Myrna Weissman, from Columbia University in New York, USA, and
colleagues assessed patients attending one of two urologic
units.
The participants included 67 patients with interstitial
cystitis, 79 with other bladder disease associated with
underlying anatomic causes, and 815 first-degree relatives.
The results showed that patients with interstitial cystitis
were 4.05 times more likely to have a lifetime prevalence of
panic disorder than patients without the urologic disorder.
They were also 2.22 times more likely than those without
interstitial cystitis to have any of the associated syndromes,
such as mitral valve prolapse or headache.
Moreover, the researchers found that the first-degree
relatives of the interstitial cystitis patients were also
around three times more likely than the relatives of
participants without the condition to have panic disorder,
thyroid disorder, or urologic problems.
"These findings together with findings from the genetic
linkage study, while still tentative, suggest that in a
subgroup of patients with panic disorder, interstitial
cystitis and other seemingly disparate disorders may be part
of the same syndrome," the authors write.
They add that their results could have implications for the
pharmacological treatment of interstitial cystitis.
"Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, which are effective
in panic disorder patients, might inhibit serotonergic
activation of mast cells and modulate exaggerated bladder
activity through down-regulation of central postsynaptic
serotonin receptors," Weissman et al report.
"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
news:c6hn92$kso$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <mFSic.346$KR6.24...@news.uswest.net> Abby Pennington
writes:
> It got to the point where I was saying "whatever is, is."
> --Marshall
From: TheAmazingPuppyWiz...@Mail.Com
Date: 4 Dec 2005 22:10:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Urinating at night
HOWEDY matty,
"Rocky" wrote in message
news:Fri9722D4E3FB917australianshepherdca@rocky-dog.com...
> sighthounds & siberians said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>>>>> What Melinda's getting at is that sometimes spayed
>>>>> females (and sometimes neutered males as well) leak
>>>>> urine, particularly when they're sleeping.
Yeah, but the TRUTH is, there AIN'T NO SUCH THING
as "spay incontinence', it's a STRESS problem made more
likely due to surgical sexual mutilation in both male and
female canines.
>>>> is this common?
INDEEDY. MANY of HOWER dog lover's dogs here got it.
>>>No.
That's a LIE, matty.
>> Actually, I think it is fairly common, particularly in
>> females. And there are two males living in my house now
>> that do it, so it's not all that uncommon in males either.
INDEEDY...
> What's "fairly common"? MauiJNP seemed concerned that
> her dog could be similarly afflicted and was considering
> not spaying. I responded that it's not common.
Yeah, but you're a PROVEN LYING DOG ABUSING
MENTAL CASE, matty. Here's just a small sample of
HOWER regular dog lovers dogs with "SPAY INCONTINENCE":
From: "RobinB."
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 16:49:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Urinating at night
"Alison" wrote in message
news:dmq5v1$hfv$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "RobinB." wrote in message
> news:11p0sc19jg72q9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > ">>
> > > My mother had a dog who did this and in the end it was
> > > an estrogen problem. Once the dog took the hormone it
> > > completely stopped. Worth checking out.
> > > Gwen
<
> > Wow! Thanks, Gwen....interesting. How in the heck did
> > they figure THAT out???
> Your vet should know:) If she is leaking, it doesn't have to
> happen when she is asleep, it can happen when she is awake too.
> As has already been suggested , keep her in your room. It's
> unfair that she has to be crated all day and night too. Does
> she know how to ask to go out?
> Alison
That's the problem. When I'm awake she'll jump at the door and
bark - but not at night; and I'm a very light sleeper. I agree;
I would hate to crate her day and night. She loves it during the
day. I say "time to get in your house" and she opens the door
with her paw. It's too cute.
Thanks to everyone with the suggestions. I 'spose I'll somehow
tether her on the bed and get up in the middle of the night to
walk her. She's due for her annual, so I'll have more of a
discussion with the vet as well.
From: "RobinB."
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:14:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Urinating at night
"Janet B" wrote in message
news:8eo0p1pdlmesa15mk8dtbeiholrcqmtkc3@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:53:47 -0500, "RobinB." ,
> clicked their heels and said:
> > After three hours of whining and barking I couldn't
> > take it anymore (as I am sure my neighbors couldn't).
> where was the crate?
> a tether is another option, as is a gate or door.
> --
> Janet B
> www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
On 5 Dec 2005 03:55:23 GMT,
Rocky wrote:
>sighthounds & siberians said in
>rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>>>>> What Melinda's getting at is that sometimes spayed
>>>>> females (and sometimes neutered males as well) leak
>>>>> urine, particularly when they're sleeping.
>>>> is this common?
>>>No.
>> Actually, I think it is fairly common, particularly in
>> females. And there are two males living in my house now
>> that do it, so it's not all that uncommon in males either.
>What's "fairly common"? MauiJNP seemed concerned that her dog
>could be similarly afflicted and was considering not spaying. I
>responded that it's not common.
I'll restate. Spay incontinence isn't common, exactly, but I don't
think it's uncommon either. No, I'm really not trying to play games
with semantics. I don't know the statistical incidence, but spay
incontinence is not rare or unusual. However, it's easily controlled,
and it is not a good reason to not spay one's dog, IMO. Oddly enough,
we've had only one female with spay incontinence and three males with
urinary leakage.
Mustang Sally
"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
news:dn1esm$elk$1@panix2.panix.com...
> In article ,
> sighthounds & siberians wrote:
>> Oddly enough, we've had only one female with spay incontinence
>> and three males with urinary leakage.
> I've had one female with spay incontinence and one male with
> leakage. In Duncan's case it was related to his lower motor
> neuron disorder and not really treatable. However, as you
> say Greta's spay incontinence was easy and inexpensive to
> treat.
> --
> Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - s...@panix.com
> Don't think you are going to conceal faults by concealing evidence
> that they ever existed. -- Dwight D Eisenhower
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary
From: "Steph"
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:49:03 -0500
Subject: Incontinant vs anatomical
Hi again.
In about September I posted about my dog and that she was having
"accidents". It was basically when she'd lay down, there'd be a
wet spot on the floor. Well we put her on propalin after many
many urinalysis's and two rounds of different antibiotics. She
didn't have one accident on the propalin. She's been off it for
about two weeks now and today we're back at square one. She's a
lemon in many aspects that's why we were thinking that it was
anatomical.
When ever the vet would open her vulva, there would be some pooling
of urine there and occasionally I'd find a mild amount of puss.
The vet is thinking that since she was so perfect on the propalin
that it's incontinence. The thing that I'm hesitant about is that
she's only a year and a half old. I'm hesitant to have her on propalin
for the rest of her life.
Newsgroups: alt.med.veterinary
From: "Jinxy"
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:16:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Incontinant vs anatomical
"Steph" wrote in message
news:GMadnS52kefPVRDeRVn-jA@rogers.com...
>> I have heard that this problem can occur after a bitch is
>> spayed and that the problem is permanent. I don't know
>> about the long term use of the medicine-what did your vet say?
> Propalin has only been available in Canada for a couple of years
> so vets don't really have long term clients here. It's been
> available elsewhere for longer though. Her mind is elsewhere
> because her own cat isn't doing well so I don't think that she's
> really focusing on anything 100%. I've emailed the company
> requesting studies of long term use/affects.
> My gut and my husbands both think that it's something more but
> we don't know if it's really our gut feelings or the fact that
> she's got lots of other things messed up with her.
> I guess that I'll just have to sit around and wait for answers
> from my vet, company, other people here...I hate not having any
> control and not being able to help her. She looks at me with
> those "help me" eyes and it just breaks my heart.
I just went through spay incontinence with my female. She started
leaking at I think eight or nine years old. She was put on
Stilbestrol...
(I'm in Canada too). The vet told me it was odd because spay
incontinence
should have shown up soon after being spayed. (she was year old when it
was done) I can't say Stilbestrol worked...because she still
leaked..just
the amount that came out was less.
Looking back now I kind of wonder if she was spay incontinent or
not. I've never heard of Propalin? Sounds like a new treatment.
Her vulva was like your dogs...pooling of urine and sometimes pus.
I hope you find a treatment that works.
It's hard to see our doggies not well.
From: Brian Kushner bkush...@snip.net
Subject: Pet Urinating In House After Spaying
I have a 6 month old dog that was completely housebroken.
Then I had her spayed a week ago and ever since she has
started back to taking her little spite pees on the rug?
What is causing this? She still is going outside.
Brian
From: "Avrama Gingold" avr...@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Pet Urinating In House After Spaying
Spay incontinence is not uncommon--and no, it is
not "spite pees" you are seeing. Your vet can provide
medication to control it.
From: Paula
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005
Another thing I was going to mention before but forgot to:
Diva always had spay incontinence, but it got worse as she
aged, as did the risk of adverse reactions to the medications
that partially controlled it.
From: "medgirl" medgirl2...@nospamhotmail.com
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005
She was spayed when she was younger. She has had some
problems with incontinence in the last year or so, for which
she has been on phenylpropanolamine.
From: montana wildhack
The late Duchess of Doodle had spay incontinence
From: "Paul B"
She has "spay incontinence" which is effectively controlled
with propalin syrup, except when on steroids, the leaking
resumed but worse than ever.
From: dian...@bolt.sonic.net (diannes)
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005
my dog with the apparent spay incontinence
"Kelly Randallgsske...@ix.netcom.com
Subject: ERT and spay incontinence
I have a female Dobe, age 2 1/2, who is beginning
estrogen replacement therapy for spay incontinence.
From: jgallant*NO*SP...@accessone.com (Jim)
Subject: Spaying and Incontinence
We have an eight year old female purebred
rough collie who was spayed at about 10
months old. She's had an incontince
problem ever since that spaying.
From: tasha2...@aol.com (Tasha2243)
Subject: Re: Spaying and Incontinence
We had a similar problem with our Golden Retriever
for about a year. She was incontinent at night. The
vet we were seeing prescribed estrogyn. Every once
in a while she would still have a problem.
From: "Chris Oldroyd" chri...@nospambtinternet.com
Subject: dog wetting problem
my 10 month old cocker spaniel has an annoying
habit of wetting on the floor she seemed ok until
she was spayed
From: mepst...@uiuc.edu (Milt Epstein) -
Subject: help with "leaky" dog (incontinence)
Hi. Look for comments/suggestions regarding our
dog, who's been having incontinence problems of late.
From: "Andrea shelton" a.shel...@virgin.net
Subject: 7 yr old Dalmatian bitch 'leaking'
I have a 7 year old Dalmatian bitch who has
recently begun 'leaking on her bed or cushion
in the evening.
From: JZIMGO...@webtv.net
She has already started drinking more, which
has made her spay incontinence worse.
Stephie wrote:
We are getting desperate to figure out the problem
with the current dog. She has been on hormone
therepy, PPL (strengthens the muscles) and now are
trying the special dog food. Urinalysis shows nothing
unusual. She is 4 years old and this really started
about 6 months ago. Nothing we have tried so far will
control it. Has anyone else had such a difficult
case? Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks
From: carl.sohlb...@mailbox.swipnet.se (Carl Sohlberg)
Date: 1997/02/07
Subject: Re: Death During Spay?
Here in Sweden where dogs traditionally are not
neutered, hypothyroidism is a v-e-r-y unusual
diorder, and incontinence is only seen in very
diabetic dogs or bitches or in dogs with serious
kidney failure, or in a few puppies with
malformations in the urinary tract.
The risk for mammary or testicular cancer, or
pyometra is around 6% according to the very
accurate animal health insurance statistics we
have. It is a lower risk than the 10% risk for
spay incontinence usually given in international
vetmed literature.
The treatment is mostly successful and paid by insurance.
Not telling the caring dog owners all the facts about risk
associated with neutering is in fact to deceive them.
Educated and careful dog owners would never dream of
letting a bitch in season out by herself in the back
yard. Here, dogs are not allowed to roam the streets
and owners have a strict legal responsibility for
them - consequently we have no overpopulation among
dogs in Sweden.
Eva
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
HOWEDY Deltones,
Deltones wrote:
> Rocky wrote:
> > "Deltones" said in
> > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would be the
> > > point? Where I come from, choking is choking. It's never limited.
Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.
> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...
> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
> ----------
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
> ----------
"Rocky" wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
PERHAPS your mentally ill daddy or mammy will
come bye an give you another pretty cool spankin?:
HOWEDY janet,
Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> , clicked their heels and said:
> >Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> >dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching,
> beating the living crap out of your dogs"
> Scream? no
> Choke? no
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with one,
> your opinion means nothing
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction"
--Janet Boss
"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.
Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.
It's all in the archives.
Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.
"J1Boss" wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
"sionnach" wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain And
Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation Of Correction
To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish Him, Thus Making
The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want To Avoid In The Future,"
grant teeboon RAAF.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET.
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
sinofabitch writes:
> >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
> >> posts from two different people,
Of curse THAT'S a lie.
> >> took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> >> cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> >> then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> >> and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> >> Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> >> The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> >> when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> >> and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.
> >> is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
> > Here's Jerry's version
> > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
> > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
> > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
> > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
> > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
> > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
> > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
> > Here's yours;
> > "I dropped the leash, threw my
> > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > grabbed her opposite foot with my
> > left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
> > nipped her ear.
> > --Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
>By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
>suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
>that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
>the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
>crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
>you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
>dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST
In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrnsc53>,
"Coleman Brumley" wrote:
>Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-Shock).
>If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?
If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system, I have
one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.
>I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
>more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
>walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
>so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
>watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
>props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
>I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.
I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.
That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST
"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.com> wrote in mesage
news:yIydnZpPsIzg6l_d4p2dnA@comcast.com...
> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.
--------------------------------
"Tricia9999" wrote in message
news:20021117101433.10365.00000067@mb-cg.aol.com...
> how effective are these electronic fences in
> keeping a dog on a property????
Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.
Just hides under a desk in the house.
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then.
She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?"
"Julia Altshuler"
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
> Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
> is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
> keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
> up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
> and the vet agrees.
> --Lia
"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help:
http://tinyurl.com/fbqnw
THAT'S an OCD, like the head shake Cubbe is
developing. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING
and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST
advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing
Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM
INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
> "Training is not confrontation"
> Lynn K.
> <except when it is>
> "So what? Whoever said that it's right to
> always not confront? We sure can try, but
> a dog who knows a command and growls when
> given it is certainly being confrontational".
> You can't simply walk away and pretend it
> didn't happen or leave it for later work in
> every situation."
> Lynn K.
> --------------------------------------
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
---------------------------------
Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.
Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue:
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
> >> Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
> >> quotes are true.
> >> In the posts below you take responsibility for
> >> making those calls.
> >> In your post above, you state you do not
> >> make those calls.
> >> Which one is it?
WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
Lynn K.
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined
> But I think what Lois was referring to
> was the fact that Darlene actually
> stated at some point that she was
> bipolar--and, IIRC, that meds did not work
> for her--so she was prone to major-league
> ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03
BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read
> "The Unquiet Mind"?
Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.
Lynn K.
---------------------------------------
MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION
"KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS
DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH
"What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"
From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02
BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS
"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."
The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."
Lois E.
-------------------------------------
"BethF"
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkfr257e1a@corp.supernews.com...
> "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in message
> Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
> and i often call my little dog the turd, because
> he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
> would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
> matter of personality.
> Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
> step on him once. Seriously.
"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."
"BethF" wrote in message
news:uohnj3r4a4e85e@corp.supernews.com...
Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.
------------------------------------------------------
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63h8ekqiforibadrff2@4ax.com...
Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv128jnumgmb2m27opr@4ax.com...
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
From: Momi...@webtv.net (misty)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:29:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Beth wrote:
>So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?
Never had a chance to try them on her... I was still
using the e-fence and chains to keep her in the yard.
The suggestions I received here to keep Peach home were:
build a fence... wasn't going to happen.. we plan on putting
a modular home here within the next few years... put more
fence at the top of the pen I used so both dogs could play
bitey face w/o tangling, and similar suggestions.
Jerry was the only one to mention border training... but he
was kook supreme ;-P So I ignored him... no killfiles with
webtv.. at that time Jerry had his own troll, somewhat like
Candace, so the group was not very conducive to learning anything.
At one point I even b*tched about Jerry.
By the time I tried out Jerry's manual Peach had already ran away.
Not very good at the google groups search but you'll find my
first post at "runaway dog message 30" within that thread is
mention of the dogs taking off and being gone for 2 days. I
stopped posting for a bit... my middle boy was devastated that
his dog was gone... Zelda came home but not her mom.
The next few posts from me were ones about/to Jerry.
Then Jerry made the WETM accessible for webbes, I put it
in my e-mail (no storage otherwise on webby unless you put
stuff on a webpage) and read it, read it and read it.
Once I understood what the concept was, I implemented it
on Zelda. It worked and I now have a great housedog!
I only regret that my own distrust of Jerry caused me to lose
another wonderful dog. Peach was an absolute gem with little
kids. I and my boys still miss her. Sometimes I still look
to see if she came home when we get back from trips. Maybe
Peach would still have ran away... I don't know and never will....
~misty
From: "Jerry Howe"
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:16:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Peach would be there sittin pretty had our pals not given you a bum
steer cause they're EMBARRASSED and AFRAID of losing their careers
and reputations.... Jerry.
Stick around, we're just startin to have FUN learning and sharing...
j;~)
"misty" <Momi...@webtv.net wrote in message news:
16990-3CAB1F8...@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...
I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's
not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her
loss.
I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how
you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my
using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not
wanting to stay home.
Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping
my dogs in their own yard.
Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my concern
became how to keep them from running off for days on end.
I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the
anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.
I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g>
A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained,
doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all
the time.
IOW a great companion and friend.
Thanks Jerry!
=====================
misty" wrote in message
news:6946-3B6337A1-329@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two
dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come
back in the yard and would run for days.
The last time, Peach didn't come back home.
I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train
my dog. She is now border trained. A few minutes each day
reinforces her desire to stay in the yard.
She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from
chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk around
the yard.
I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
then you need to train your dog.
I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my dog in
our yard again.
The price was too high:-( ~misty
--------------------------------
DECENT PEOPLE DO NO POST HERE abHOWETS:
Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research
at UofWI marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!"
into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a
box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer:
"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.
First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.
How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.
******IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?*******
When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:
"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.
From: "Marshall Dermer"
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
To: "Jerry Howe"
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400
Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.
I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.
There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.
Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
news:
I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.
At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.
I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.
I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
have the people stop until he could get in control using
treats, and work on clicker training.
At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away
when I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in
the neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and
women who hasn't trained her dog"
I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
responsible for him."
*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)
As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 months!
Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.
When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"
The results can make a believer!!!
Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
in a busy shopping area with many dogs.
He just seemed to not notice any one.
When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.
If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.
My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
================================
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------------------
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( * ) and KISS ME HERE!
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The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
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Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.
IT AIN'T PRETTY.
<(@}; ~ } >
And when your heads stops spinnin, The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard sincerely wishes you and yours happy,
heelthful days, FOREVER <{}; ~ ) >
I remain respectfully, humbly yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
date: 25 Nov 2006 16:02:06 -0800
author: unknown
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