Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory

Subject: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed
From:		M Shirley Chong - view profile
Date:		Wed, Apr 14 2004 3:38 am
Email: 		M Shirley Chong 
Groups: 		soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm

I'm piggybacking from Nicole Diver:

> Katharine H. writes: "This is my new tactic -- my 3 yr old rottie/lab
> mix has become *extremely* aggressive when new people, in particular
> men, come onto his territory. All people who are coming to my home for
> the first time are warned to expect aggression. They are then given the
> option of dealing with the dog or not. If the new guests are not "dog
> people" I will make the choice for them and the dog will stay in the
> backyard while I have people over.
>
> If they do want to make friends with the dog, then the dog goes on a
> leash and prong collar when they enter the house. When I let them in, he
> is snarling, lunging, etc. As soon as the treats come out it's a whole
> new ballgame. The pup sits and wags his tail and is ready to make
> friends. It generally takes time for him to warm up to new men."

Katherine, I have nothing against the use of prong collars and
recommend them when I feel it is appropriate. Just like any tool,
there are situations when a prong collar is the best tool for a job
and there situations where a prong collar is the worst tool for a job.

Prong collars do tend to magnify a dog's aggressive tendencies. If
the dog is at all inclined to bite unreasonably, the prong collar
will often send it right over the edge.

I deal with aggressive dogs as my career. I got my start in teaching
because my vet had a client with an aggressive Great Dane and conned
me into going there and taking a look. That woman has all the
persuasive powers popularly attributed to Satan! I whined and said I
didn't know what to do and somehow ended up on the Dane owner's
front porch anyway. When word got around the local vets that there
was a trainer stupid enough to work with aggressive dogs, I had more
business than I knew what to do about.

I've been presenting seminars all over the US and Canada for the
past eight years. It's how I make my living.

I say all this so you can evaluate my ideas in terms of who I am
(check .sig for my website which has extensive training stuff posted
on it).

If you need the physical leverage to control your dog, my suggestion
would be for a Snoot Loop (head halter) or a Sense-Ation harness.
The Snoot Loop offers you much more control because you can
physically turn the dog's head away from whatever they are looking
at. I am more hesitant to recommend the Snoot Loop than a pinch
collar because I don't particularly like the overall repression of
behaviour it inspires--tends to take the sparkle out of a dog while
it is on. However, for some dogs, taking the sparkle out can be a
lifesaver (considering what usually happens to dogs that bite in
this country). It's not necessarily a bad thing, just something to
be aware of. Dogs have much less negative reaction to the
Sense-Ation harness but it gives much less control over the dog's
head (the leash attachment point is on the chest).

My suggestion would be that you are starting at too high a level for
your dog. Snarling, lunging, etc, means that he's in too far over
his head.

The first thing I would suggest teaching him is never, ever to
tighten the leash. That no matter what the situation is, he should
never hit the end of the lead. This can (and should) be done with
positive reinforcement. In a case like this, I strongly recommend
that the reinforcement be food treats for a couple of reasons. One
is that being part Lab, he's probably a walking stomach. Another is
that dogs cannot eat when their adrenaline levels run too high, so
strongly associating food with certain situations (being on leash)
can help keep the dog's adrenaline level lower. May not switch it
off completely but will help.

The next thing I'd suggest is setting up situations with compliant
humans *outside* the house. Most dogs are less likely to pop off
outside (where they feel less trapped) than inside the house. Have
the compliant humans stationed well away from the dog and work your
dog through sits, downs, loose lead walking, etc, until your dog is
focused on you and not the other humans. Once your dog is focused on
you, gradually work your way closer to the compliant humans. Aim for
never ever letting him get into the lunging snarling frenzy at all.

By teaching him never to tighten the leash, you will be requiring
him to work on his own self control. I think it's just like
kids--you can talk until you're blue in the face about how good self
control is but until the kid or the dog is put into a situation
where they have to figure out how to control themselves, they won't
have it. The situation should be set up so that the kid or dog is
not overwhelmed and can easily figure out the winning solution.

Preach to their condition!

Nicole Diver wrote:
> All of our dogs have been rescued dogs, all in the lab family.  Two of
> the three have been aggressive to people who enter the house, sometimes
> even people they know, if the dogs are startled or surprised.  We
> enlisted the help of a dog training professional for the first one, who
> was definitely the most aggressive.  We did the doggy treat by the door
> method, which worked beautifully for her.  We would put her in sit and
> stay position, then have the newcomer offer her a treat.

Lovely summary!

> The other dog did not respond to doggy treats very well,
> as she had an aversion to taking food from strangers.

This is common with super-submissive dogs. If you think about it,
it's really an act of faith to take food out of a human hand. Taking
food away from another dog would get most dogs into big trouble!
Dogs with insufficient experience with humans tend to apply dog
rules to humans, not because they are too stupid to realize that
humans are not dogs but just because it's the only guidelines for
conduct they understand.

Sort of like most Westerners feel the first time they are presented
with chopsticks. It's not at all uncommon for Westerners to resort
to spearing the food just because that's the only way they know how
to eat with pointy things.

> For her, we kept a tennis ball by the door.
> After putting her in sit and stay position, we would have the newcomer
> show her the ball, get her attention, give the ball a light toss into
> the livingroom, and then release her so that she could retrieve it.  She
> would bound back, give us the ball, and let us give it to the visitor,
> and repeat the process a couple of more times.  Then she would make
> friends.

This was very clever of you because it duplicates the way dogs
naturally accustom themselves to scary objects. On their own, a dog
will approach and then retreat, approach and then retreat. There's
been some interesting studies done with shelter dogs that shows that
if the trainer can replicate that natural approach and retreat
pattern the dog gets over the fear much faster than if they are
required to approach-approach-approach, as many trainers have them do.

What you did was get her to alert on the scary person, then give her
a chance to retreat (throwing the ball), then approach the scary
person, then retreat, etc.

> We spent a great deal of time and effort training our dogs in order to
> counteract their early upbringing, to make them safe to be around, and
> to help them feel secure.  Dogs are happier, IMO, when they know their
> boundaries.

Brava! Brava!

One can see this in humans as well. Contrast the comfort levels of
children at a nice restaurant whose parents have taught them which
utensils to use in what manner, how to eat the various dishes they
are presented and how to interact with the serving staff with the
comfort level of children who have never seen more than one fork,
never had a tossed salad and have never been taught how to interact
politely with adults.

Etiquette isn't just about what is proper or improper social
behaviour. It's a standard for behaviour which one can take into a
wide variety of social situations in one's culture and be assured of
behaving appropriately.

Of course dogs appreciate being taught etiquette, they're just like
humans after all! <G>

Shirley

http://www.shirleychong.com

my real e-mail address can be squeezed together from this:

e i t h n e (at) d i r e c w a y (dot) c o m

   AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory

Subject:      What kind of dog should I get?

From:		A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet
Date:		Wed, Jan 4 2006 2:59 pm
Email: 		"A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet"

HOWEDY Master Of Deception blankman,

T...@dog-play.com wrote:
> On 4 Jan 2006 03:45:37 GMT T...@dog-play.com whittled these words:

> > Why is that what you expect to see at rescue?  It certainly CAN happen,
> > but it should be expected.  The typical rescue dog is an adolescent where

> ACK

> > Make that Why is that what you expect to see at rescue?  It
> > certainly CAN happen, but it should NOT be expected.  The
> > typical rescue dog is an adolescent

Yeah...

> --
> Diane Blackman
>          There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
>          while preaching with violent words.
> http://dog-play.com/    http://dogplayshops.com/

Here's Miss Shirly, the CLICKER TRAINER you recommended to us:

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong 

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 02:16:30 -0500
Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

MasterofDelight wrote:
> Welcome back, and it sure did not take you long to pick
> up on the dog training thread.  As you can see, you
>commentary was missed.

Thanks!

Yes, there's nothing more likely to lure me out of lurk mode than a
training question. I'd planned to lurk for a couple weeks to get up
to speed again but before I knew it, the keyboard was rattling.

> OB:bdsm  Do you give advice on "puppy training" too?

Sure! I may not have a clue as to what I'm talking about but that
never stops me.

Shirley

compress the following to discover my e-mail address:
e i t h n e (at) d i r e c w a y (dot) c o m

LIKE THIS?: eit...@direcway.com?

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong 

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:48:53 -0500

Subject: Re: pregnancy and S&M?

dionysiangrrrl wrote:
> I just learned I'm pregnant, and while in most respects, I find it to
> be excellent news, I'm a little concerned about play time. I'm a
> fairly heavy masochist used to frequent beatings and torture, and have
> held back from play so far until I get a little more advanced, just to
> be safe. But if I make it healthily through the first trimester, does
> anyone have any advice for pregnancy whompings? (Besides the fairly
> obvious "no more gut punches" rule :)

Congratulations!

My advice is to ask your doctor. Because your doctor is the one who
knows your specific conditions, because there's a lot of advice out
there of varying quality (including this!) and because it's
important to have peace of mind that you are doing the right thing
at a time like this.

Most doctors have heard it all. If they haven't heard it all, they
should have. <G> If you have reason to believe that your doctor may
react badly then maybe that's an indication this isn't the doctor
for you. Better to find this out now rather than when you are in
labor and not in the mood to holler at some rank narrowmindedness
and unable to gather your dignity and march out. Those hospital
gowns just don't cut it for dignified exits unless you back out the
door and then there's the little problem of who is out in the hall.

Much easier in the long run to tell the truth.

Shirley

compress the following to discover my e-mail address:
e i t h n e (at) d i r e c w a y (dot) c o m

eit...@direcway.com... like that?

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: redneckpai...@aol.comspam (Joe Sergio)

Date: 17 Apr 2004 00:51:40 GMT

Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

JK said:

>Gee, let's see, why not take your dogs to a training school or ask
>your local police how they do it with their dogs?!

Ive already called the K9 officer in my town.  Left a message.  He will
get

in
touch with me.

>And I don't know do you think maybe slapping your dogs around so much
>and living with them, I mean all that attention you are giving them
>might just have something to do with why they like you and your family
>more than the neighbors?

I don't slap them around so much.  I'll pop em, and all
when they do something wrong, and fuss at em.  But I have
found something even better to make them stop what they
are doing.

A dustbuster.  Just turn it on.  Or show it to them.  They
hate any type of vacum cleaner.  It's worked about keeping
Jake out of the garbage.  I sat in the kitchen a whole day,
and every time he went to the garbage can and went to stick
his head in, I turned it on.  He stopped that.

Mainly I just pet them.  They lay there by my chair and I
reach down and scratch them.  They get up in the chair with
me.  Tha'ts not easy when they are that big.  But they still
think they are puppies.  I do spoil them sometimes, but they
are my boys, and I love them.

> Hey, but this is the SSBB clearinghouse and you know the brain bucket
> is just outside and we do expect you to leave your brain there first
> before you post your problems here. Afterall, we all know that SSBB
> has all the answers you need for all your problems. Don't bother
> picking up your phone and calling around 'cause you got the good ole
> SSBB to help solve your problems.

You dumbass, I did call around and ask some advice from
other folks as well first.  I posted it here because Miss
Shirley trains dogs, and there are a few folks here who
know more about it than I do.

Why do you try to turn every post you reply to into a noncon
humiliation scene with you topping?  Could it be that this is
the only action your getting?  LOL

> Time to fetch your brain. Come on boy you can do it.
> There you go.

I'd ask you to fetch yours, but I don't think you can
see something that small without a microscope.
--
Joe
Suck a lifesaver today, put a fireman in your mouth.

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong 

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:50:09 -0500

Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

Katharine H. wrote:
> He does pretty well in his "walking gear" -- which is what the prong
> and leash are.   When I put the prong collar and leash on, he still
> shows other aggression behaviors to new men in the house but does not
> lunge (because he doesn't tighten his leash on the prong.)  I think he
> does pretty well with the leash behaviors (given he's got a
> run-of-the-mill owner-type).

What other sorts of behaviours does he show?

> He is mostly fine when we are off the property.  He still must stay
> leashed, but the only people he shows aggression to are fly fisherman
> (something about the gear freaks him out) and other dogs.   Other
> people he basically ignores.  My biggest issue are other dog owners
> whose dogs are off leash and want to come up and say hello.  My beast
> will play well with a dog who submits, but will fight with one who
> doesn't.

I have a solution for that one. When some clueless idjit allows
their dog to come up to mine, I call over sweetly "don't worry, the
vet doesn't think he's infectious anymore."

A carryover from my years showing horses when idjits leading a horse
down the aisle of a barn would let their horse poke it's head into
my horse's stall. I'd grab a bottle of Ring-Ex (ringworm medication)
and start spritzing ostentatiously. And mention that my vet thought
we had the infestation cleared up.

I never mentioned that the bottle was full of plain water. <G>

If I'm not in a nice mood, I just scare the bejeebers out of the
oncoming dog to send it away. When they say "but he's friendly" I
say "well, I'm not." My dogs never have to defend themselves on
leash. I think they sort of enjoy seeing me chase other dogs away,
there's a certain smugness in the way they lean against me while
looking at the other dog.

> Bottom line though... this dog is killing my sex life because I can't
> introduce men into the house and I've been in the mood for men the
> past several months.  I don't know what the hell I'm doing, so I've
> called a local trainer and she's going to teach me how to more
> effectively deal with the beast before I figure it's time to enter a
> monastary :-)
> This dog is so docile with me... the contrast in behaviors is amazing.

Nooooo, not the monastary! Your scene reports are incredibly good
and would be a loss to pervkind.

Shirley

compress the following to discover my real e-mail address:

e i t h n e (at) d i r e c w a y (dot) c o m

eit...@direcway.com. LIKE THAT?

Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
From: M Shirley Chong 

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 02:38:40 -0500

Subject: Re: OT Big dog problem. Serious help needed

I'm piggybacking from Nicole Diver:

> Katharine H. writes: "This is my new tactic -- my 3 yr old rottie/lab
> mix has become *extremely* aggressive when new people, in particular
> men, come onto his territory. All people who are coming to my home for
> the first time are warned to expect aggression. They are then given the
> option of dealing with the dog or not. If the new guests are not "dog
> people" I will make the choice for them and the dog will stay in the
> backyard while I have people over.

> If they do want to make friends with the dog, then the dog goes on a
> leash and prong collar when they enter the house. When I let them in, he
> is snarling, lunging, etc. As soon as the treats come out it's a whole
> new ballgame. The pup sits and wags his tail and is ready to make
> friends. It generally takes time for him to warm up to new men."

Katherine, I have nothing against the use of prong collars and
recommend them when I feel it is appropriate. Just like any tool,
there are situations when a prong collar is the best tool for a job
and there situations where a prong collar is the worst tool for a job.

Prong collars do tend to magnify a dog's aggressive tendencies. If
the dog is at all inclined to bite unreasonably, the prong collar
will often send it right over the edge.

I deal with aggressive dogs as my career. I got my start in teaching
because my vet had a client with an aggressive Great Dane and conned
me into going there and taking a look. That woman has all the
persuasive powers popularly attributed to Satan! I whined and said I
didn't know what to do and somehow ended up on the Dane owner's
front porch anyway. When word got around the local vets that there
was a trainer stupid enough to work with aggressive dogs, I had more
business than I knew what to do about.

I've been presenting seminars all over the US and Canada for the
past eight years. It's how I make my living.

I say all this so you can evaluate my ideas in terms of who I am
(check .sig for my website which has extensive training stuff posted
on it).

If you need the physical leverage to control your dog, my suggestion
would be for a Snoot Loop (head halter) or a Sense-Ation harness.
The Snoot Loop offers you much more control because you can
physically turn the dog's head away from whatever they are looking
at. I am more hesitant to recommend the Snoot Loop than a pinch
collar because I don't particularly like the overall repression of
behaviour it inspires--tends to take the sparkle out of a dog while
it is on. However, for some dogs, taking the sparkle out can be a
lifesaver (considering what usually happens to dogs that bite in
this country). It's not necessarily a bad thing, just something to
be aware of. Dogs have much less negative reaction to the
Sense-Ation harness but it gives much less control over the dog's
head (the leash attachment point is on the chest).

My suggestion would be that you are starting at too high a level for
your dog. Snarling, lunging, etc, means that he's in too far over
his head.

The first thing I would suggest teaching him is never, ever to
tighten the leash. That no matter what the situation is, he should
never hit the end of the lead. This can (and should) be done with
positive reinforcement. In a case like this, I strongly recommend
that the reinforcement be food treats for a couple of reasons. One
is that being part Lab, he's probably a walking stomach. Another is
that dogs cannot eat when their adrenaline levels run too high, so
strongly associating food with certain situations (being on leash)
can help keep the dog's adrenaline level lower. May not switch it
off completely but will help.

The next thing I'd suggest is setting up situations with compliant
humans *outside* the house. Most dogs are less likely to pop off
outside (where they feel less trapped) than inside the house. Have
the compliant humans stationed well away from the dog and work your
dog through sits, downs, loose lead walking, etc, until your dog is
focused on you and not the other humans. Once your dog is focused on
you, gradually work your way closer to the compliant humans. Aim for
never ever letting him get into the lunging snarling frenzy at all.

By teaching him never to tighten the leash, you will be requiring
him to work on his own self control. I think it's just like
kids--you can talk until you're blue in the face about how good self
control is but until the kid or the dog is put into a situation
where they have to figure out how to control themselves, they won't
have it. The situation should be set up so that the kid or dog is
not overwhelmed and can easily figure out the winning solution.

Preach to their condition!

Nicole Diver wrote:
> All of our dogs have been rescued dogs, all in the lab family.  Two of
> the three have been aggressive to people who enter the house, sometimes
> even people they know, if the dogs are startled or surprised.  We
> enlisted the help of a dog training professional for the first one, who
> was definitely the most aggressive.  We did the doggy treat by the door
> method, which worked beautifully for her.  We would put her in sit and
> stay position, then have the newcomer offer her a treat.

Lovely summary!

> The other dog
> did not respond to doggy treats very well, as she had an aversion to
> taking food from strangers.

This is common with super-submissive dogs. If you think about it,
it's really an act of faith to take food out of a human hand. Taking
food away from another dog would get most dogs into big trouble!
Dogs with insufficient experience with humans tend to apply dog
rules to humans, not because they are too stupid to realize that
humans are not dogs but just because it's the only guidelines for
conduct they understand.

Sort of like most Westerners feel the first time they are presented
with chopsticks. It's not at all uncommon for Westerners to resort
to spearing the food just because that's the only way they know how
to eat with pointy things.

> For her, we kept a tennis ball by the door.
> After putting her in sit and stay position, we would have the newcomer
> show her the ball, get her attention, give the ball a light toss into
> the livingroom, and then release her so that she could retrieve it.  She
> would bound back, give us the ball, and let us give it to the visitor,
> and repeat the process a couple of more times.  Then she would make
> friends.

This was very clever of you because it duplicates the way dogs
naturally accustom themselves to scary objects. On their own, a dog
will approach and then retreat, approach and then retreat. There's
been some interesting studies done with shelter dogs that shows that
if the trainer can replicate that natural approach and retreat
pattern the dog gets over the fear much faster than if they are
required to approach-approach-approach, as many trainers have them do.

What you did was get her to alert on the scary person, then give her
a chance to retreat (throwing the ball), then approach the scary
person, then retreat, etc.

> We spent a great deal of time and effort training our dogs in order to
> counteract their early upbringing, to make them safe to be around, and
> to help them feel secure.  Dogs are happier, IMO, when they know their
> boundaries.

Brava! Brava!

One can see this in humans as well. Contrast the comfort levels of
children at a nice restaurant whose parents have taught them which
utensils to use in what manner, how to eat the various dishes they
are presented and how to interact with the serving staff with the
comfort level of children who have never seen more than one fork,
never had a tossed salad and have never been taught how to interact
politely with adults.

Etiquette isn't just about what is proper or improper social
behaviour. It's a standard for behaviour which one can take into a
wide variety of social situations in one's culture and be assured of
behaving appropriately.

Of course dogs appreciate being taught etiquette, they're just like
humans after all! <G>

Shirley

http://www.shirleychong.com

my real e-mail address can be squeezed together from this:

e i t h n e (at) d i r e c w a y (dot) c o m

eit...@direcway.com? LIKE THAT?
	 

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