Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is 
excellent.
http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php

and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
-- 
Regards
Bob Hobden
17mls W. of London.UK

On 12/11/07 17:13, in article 5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net, "Bob
Hobden"  wrote:

> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> excellent.
> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
> 
> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.

Lovely little town and well done them for this initiative.
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:39:01 +0000, Sacha 
wrote:

>On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>> excellent.
>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>> 
>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>> 
>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>
>You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>how much!  

I'm not. I bought recyclable bags years ago. I don't recall the supermarket that
made them available for a token amount getting any publicity. 
-- 

Martin

"Bob Hobden"  wrote in message 
news:5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net...
> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is 
> excellent.
> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> -- 
> Regards
> Bob Hobden
> 17mls W. of London.UK
>

Featured on TV some 6 months or more back. Made us buy the reusable bags and 
used them since :-))

Mike



-- 
www.rnshipmates.co.uk for ALL Royal Navy Association matters
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will be there.

On Nov 12, 9:13 am, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> excellent.http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> --
> Regards
> Bob Hobden
> 17mls W. of London.UK

does it mention how many of them own stock or shares
in the timber companies and paper-bag suppliers?
(ducking and running)

"Bob Hobden"  wrote in message 
news:5prgs7Fpna05U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Martin"  wrote after
> "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>excellent.
>>>http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>
>>>and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>
>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>
> The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town a 
> re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a small 
> charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers made of corn 
> starch .....this  must be the way to go.

Agreed. How parsimonious, to want a free bag!

Mary

On Nov 12, 5:30 pm, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
> "Martin"  wrote after
>  "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>
>
>
> >>Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> >>The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> >>excellent.
> >>http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> >>and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>
> > I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>
> The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town a
> re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a small
> charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers made of corn
> starch .....this  must be the way to go.
>
> --
> Regards
> Bob Hobden
> 17mls W. of London.UK

It has been illegal to give free plastic bags in Irish shops for a few
years now.  You can get them but have to ask and have to pay.  Ireland
used to have an appalling litter problem; overnight we went from that
to merely having a bad litter problem.  It needed a simple act of
government.  Since then, people have gotten used to bringing their own
bags when going shopping.  One barrier at the time was the amount of
economic activity that went onto making and distributing the
disposable bags; it is a big business.  It worked almost immediately
and the supermarkets surived quite happily despite all the bleating
they did before hand, moaning about how civilisation would end etc.

Des

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:53:56 -0000, "Mary Fisher" 
wrote:

>
>"Bob Hobden"  wrote in message 
>news:5prgs7Fpna05U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Martin"  wrote after
>> "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>>
>>>>Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>>The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>>excellent.
>>>>http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>>
>>>>and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>>
>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>>
>> The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town a 
>> re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a small 
>> charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers made of corn 
>> starch .....this  must be the way to go.
>
>Agreed. How parsimonious, to want a free bag!

but the website is called plastic bag free, why not recyclable bag free? 
-- 

Martin

On 12/11/07 17:51, in article 2g4hj35infd2vkptl2g29lo7mibcpq3sju@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:39:01 +0000, Sacha 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>> excellent.
>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>> 
>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>> 
>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>> 
>> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>> how much!  
> 
> I'm not. I bought recyclable bags years ago. I don't recall the supermarket
> that
> made them available for a token amount getting any publicity.

Probably because they go on handing out plastic bags for which we all still
pay - even you.  There *has* been publicity recently over Tesco's decision
to start charging 5p for plastic bags to 'force' people to re-use them.
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 12/11/07 18:50, in article
1194893425.838362.162060@s15g2000prm.googlegroups.com, "Don H3"
 wrote:

> On Nov 12, 9:13 am, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>> excellent.http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>> 
>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>> --
>> Regards
>> Bob Hobden
>> 17mls W. of London.UK
> 
> does it mention how many of them own stock or shares
> in the timber companies and paper-bag suppliers?
> (ducking and running)
> 
I don't see what the problem would be if that were the case.  Without
investment, companies can't continue to exist.

-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"Sacha"  wrote in message 
news:C35E8BEC.5EC90%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk...
> On 12/11/07 18:50, in article
> 1194893425.838362.162060@s15g2000prm.googlegroups.com, "Don H3"
>  wrote:
>
>> On Nov 12, 9:13 am, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>> excellent.http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>
>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>> Bob Hobden
>>> 17mls W. of London.UK
>>
>> does it mention how many of them own stock or shares
>> in the timber companies and paper-bag suppliers?
>> (ducking and running)
>>
> I don't see what the problem would be if that were the case.  Without
> investment, companies can't continue to exist.

.... burning up the resources

> .........we borrow .. from our
> children.'

Nah, no problem there.

ned

In article <C35E4035.5EC71%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, 
sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
> > 
> >> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> >> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> >> excellent.
> >> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
> >> 
> >> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> > 
> > I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
> 
> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
> how much!  People value what they pay for, so they'll use those bags
> elsewhere, too.
> 
So does anyone have first hand experiance of plastic free bags which can 
be used for wet plants? (we would gladly change but have never found any)
-- 
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk 
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and 
Lapageria rosea

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:00:58 +0000, Sacha 
wrote:

>On 12/11/07 17:51, in article 2g4hj35infd2vkptl2g29lo7mibcpq3sju@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:39:01 +0000, Sacha 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>>> excellent.
>>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>>> 
>>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>>> 
>>> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>>> how much!  
>> 
>> I'm not. I bought recyclable bags years ago. I don't recall the supermarket
>> that
>> made them available for a token amount getting any publicity.
>
>Probably because they go on handing out plastic bags 

Not in this case they went bust in the great Dutch supermarket price cutting
war.
-- 

Martin

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:00:58 +0000, Sacha wrote
(in article <C35E8BAA.5EC8F%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>):

> On 12/11/07 17:51, in article 2g4hj35infd2vkptl2g29lo7mibcpq3sju@4ax.com,
> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:39:01 +0000, Sacha 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>>> excellent.
>>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>>> 
>>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>>> 
>>> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>>> how much!  
>> 
>> I'm not. I bought recyclable bags years ago. I don't recall the supermarket
>> that
>> made them available for a token amount getting any publicity.
> 
> Probably because they go on handing out plastic bags for which we all still
> pay - even you.  There *has* been publicity recently over Tesco's decision
> to start charging 5p for plastic bags to 'force' people to re-use them.
> 

Huh!  Then why is it, I ask myself, when I (rarely) shop at Tesco's, and 
stand there waving my own canvas bags and saying "I've got my own bags", do 
they just automatically spread out the plastic ones in my way.  I have been 
known to have to say this three times before they take any notice.  And why, 
then, when I say, patiently, "you will re-use those, won't you?" when the 
bags are then shoved under the counter, do they look at me blankly as though 
I come from Mars?

It's all right, you don't need to answer that - just my morning rant for the 
day :-)


-- 
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Burne-Jones/William Morris window in Shropshire church with conservation 
churchyard:
http://www.whitton-stmarys.org.uk

"Bob Hobden"  wrote in message 
news:5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net...
> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is 
> excellent.
> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> -- 
> Regards
> Bob Hobden
> 17mls W. of London.UK
There is an awful load of rubbish being spread about - about rubbish.
First the website spends a long time wailing about all the plastic in the 
world.
Straw man. It's only the plastic bags that are this issue.
I wonder if there are any facts available on the effectiveness of projects 
like
this. My suspicion is that they are ways some people try to assuage their
guilt about their useage of resources.
Take Christmas for example. How many of the people involved in that project
will buy more plastic in one set of Christmas presents than a whole years 
useage
of plastic bags?

How many of them take their kids to school in a car when 15 minutes less 
sleep
would give them time to walk them to school? How many have 4 by 4 vehicles,
never used for what they are designed, but to provide a fearful owner the 
false
sense of protection from collision?
How many have a place in Europe, and are frequent fliers?
When all this is answered, it will still be a useless effort to leave well 
meaning people
to be careful about their carbon footprint and prudence when using 
materials.

Only governments have the power to force selfish people to behave sensibly.

On 13/11/07 08:47, in article
MPG.21a374f1c0191c829896d6@News.Individual.NET, "Charlie Pridham"
 wrote:

> In article <C35E4035.5EC71%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>,
> sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
>> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>> excellent.
>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>> 
>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>> 
>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>> 
>> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>> how much!  People value what they pay for, so they'll use those bags
>> elsewhere, too.
>> 
> So does anyone have first hand experiance of plastic free bags which can
> be used for wet plants? (we would gladly change but have never found any)

We use some plastic bags but our main 'carriers' are shallow cardboard
trays.  They arrive flat and we make them up as needed.  On busy days we
could almost have one person doing that job.
I think they cost us about 15p each but at least we feel they're fairly
eco-friendly.  One woman asked us if we would give her 'some', as her cat
likes to play with them!  We said we would gladly do so but would have to
charge her for them.  She seemed genuinely shocked to learn that this was
because we have to pay for them.  ;-)
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 13/11/07 09:23, in article k6rij3tet5ddje1i5lb6n9olccm1jjsfk4@4ax.com,
"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:00:58 +0000, Sacha 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/11/07 17:51, in article 2g4hj35infd2vkptl2g29lo7mibcpq3sju@4ax.com,
>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:39:01 +0000, Sacha 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>>>> excellent.
>>>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>>>> 
>>>> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>>>> how much!  
>>> 
>>> I'm not. I bought recyclable bags years ago. I don't recall the supermarket
>>> that
>>> made them available for a token amount getting any publicity.
>> 
>> Probably because they go on handing out plastic bags
> 
> Not in this case they went bust in the great Dutch supermarket price cutting
> war.

Hmmmmm.  No connection?  ;-)
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 13/11/07 09:48, in article
0001HW.C35F2351003AA99BF0182648@news.individual.net, "Sally Thompson"
<sallynewsgroup@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

<snip>
>> 
> 
> Huh!  Then why is it, I ask myself, when I (rarely) shop at Tesco's, and
> stand there waving my own canvas bags and saying "I've got my own bags", do
> they just automatically spread out the plastic ones in my way.  I have been
> known to have to say this three times before they take any notice.  And why,
> then, when I say, patiently, "you will re-use those, won't you?" when the
> bags are then shoved under the counter, do they look at me blankly as though
> I come from Mars?
> 
> It's all right, you don't need to answer that - just my morning rant for the
> day :-)
> 

;-))  Feeling better?  I think they've only just started this initiative -
and I hope I'm right it's Tesco because now I've got a sneaky feeling I'm
not and it's M&S.  So much for my morning-paper-reading attention span.
With Tesco however, if I do an online order, which I usually do, I get
'green points' if I don't ask for things to be delivered in carrier bags
unless 'absolutely necessary'.  They are the ones who decide what is
'absolutely necessary' but I do end up with very few bags.  When we do have
a collection, I take them to a couple of local shops who don't have their
own and they happily re-use them.  Otherwise, I have the good old wicker
shopping basket and a canvas shopper.  Looking for a bicycle basket the
other day (not for me!) I came across this lovely site with irresistible
baskets on it.  I have no idea why they fascinate me so much but there is
something so aesthetically pleasing about proper shopping baskets!
http://www.somersetlevels.co.uk/shopping---carrying-baskets/
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On Nov 12, 6:50 pm, Don H3  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 9:13 am, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>
> > Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> > The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> > excellent.http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> > and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> > --
> > Regards
> > Bob Hobden
> > 17mls W. of London.UK
>
> does it mention how many of them own stock or shares
> in the timber companies and paper-bag suppliers?
> (ducking and running)

In Ireland we banned free plastic bags in supermarkets.  The problem
was that the companies who make and distribute the bags hated it (for
obvious reasons) and the supermarkets and shops had various angles
about being unable to stop shoplifting.
The main reusable bags are fibre or plastic.  By default, I just use a
small rucksack for small lots anyway.   So the vested interests angle
was to try to stop the change rather than the opposite.
It worked overnight and has been an incredible success and
civilisation did not end.

Des

>
> We use some plastic bags but our main 'carriers' are shallow cardboard
> trays.  They arrive flat and we make them up as needed.  On busy days we
> could almost have one person doing that job.
> I think they cost us about 15p each

> -- 
> Sacha

15p plus the labour cost of making them up. How many can that 'one person' 
make up per hour and what is the hourly rate?

So many businesses don't take the full cost of an item into consideration.

I was looking at a Roadside Public House which is on the market and the cost 
of what I call 'Dead Money' on the Rent and Rates alone is £207.00 PER DAY.

When I had my factories, I did a 'Dead Money' calculation on Rent, Rates, 
Gas and Electric Standing Charge, Telephone Rent, Insurances etc etc, added 
it all up for the year and divided by 365. That was the cost, Sundays, 
Christmas Day etc that was 'Money down the drain' BEFORE I paid for the 
first member of staff to come in and switch a light on, flush the loo, turn 
the heating up etc etc.

One of the hidden considerations I included in my book on starting a 
business.

Sacha. Have you done a 'Dead Money' calculation? What it costs per day to 
run your place as a business? I doubt it, not many do :-( They wait for the 
end of the year, hand their books to the Accountant and then a year after 
the Financial Year has closed, see how well they didn't do 18 months ago :-(

Mike


-- 
www.rnshipmates.co.uk for ALL Royal Navy Association matters
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will be there.

In article <C35F2A12.5ECDA%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, 
sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
> On 13/11/07 08:47, in article
> MPG.21a374f1c0191c829896d6@News.Individual.NET, "Charlie Pridham"
>  wrote:
> 
> > In article <C35E4035.5EC71%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>,
> > sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
> >> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
> >> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> >>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> >>>> excellent.
> >>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
> >>>> 
> >>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> >>> 
> >>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
> >> 
> >> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
> >> how much!  People value what they pay for, so they'll use those bags
> >> elsewhere, too.
> >> 
> > So does anyone have first hand experiance of plastic free bags which can
> > be used for wet plants? (we would gladly change but have never found any)
> 
> We use some plastic bags but our main 'carriers' are shallow cardboard
> trays.  They arrive flat and we make them up as needed.  On busy days we
> could almost have one person doing that job.
> I think they cost us about 15p each but at least we feel they're fairly
> eco-friendly.  One woman asked us if we would give her 'some', as her cat
> likes to play with them!  We said we would gladly do so but would have to
> charge her for them.  She seemed genuinely shocked to learn that this was
> because we have to pay for them.  ;-)
> 
Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use bags, 
some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people that did 
not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if anyone knows of 
bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic, we remain interested 
to hear about them.
-- 
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk 
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and 
Lapageria rosea

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:17:15 +0000, Sacha 
wrote:

>On 13/11/07 09:23, in article k6rij3tet5ddje1i5lb6n9olccm1jjsfk4@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:00:58 +0000, Sacha 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/11/07 17:51, in article 2g4hj35infd2vkptl2g29lo7mibcpq3sju@4ax.com,
>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:39:01 +0000, Sacha 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/11/07 17:17, in article fi2hj3hfmd8vmha3fm81bnl2js2rvehogk@4ax.com,
>>>>> "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>>>>> excellent.
>>>>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You're still paying for your supermarket plastic bag, you just don't know
>>>>> how much!  
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not. I bought recyclable bags years ago. I don't recall the supermarket
>>>> that
>>>> made them available for a token amount getting any publicity.
>>> 
>>> Probably because they go on handing out plastic bags
>> 
>> Not in this case they went bust in the great Dutch supermarket price cutting
>> war.
>
>Hmmmmm.  No connection?  ;-)

The company that broke them sells plastic bags in their supermarkets. 
-- 

Martin

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:24:04 +0000, Sacha 
wrote:

>On 13/11/07 09:48, in article
>0001HW.C35F2351003AA99BF0182648@news.individual.net, "Sally Thompson"
><sallynewsgroup@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>> 
>> 
>> Huh!  Then why is it, I ask myself, when I (rarely) shop at Tesco's, and
>> stand there waving my own canvas bags and saying "I've got my own bags", do
>> they just automatically spread out the plastic ones in my way.  I have been
>> known to have to say this three times before they take any notice.  And why,
>> then, when I say, patiently, "you will re-use those, won't you?" when the
>> bags are then shoved under the counter, do they look at me blankly as though
>> I come from Mars?
>> 
>> It's all right, you don't need to answer that - just my morning rant for the
>> day :-)
>> 
>
>;-))  Feeling better?  I think they've only just started this initiative -
>and I hope I'm right it's Tesco because now I've got a sneaky feeling I'm
>not and it's M&S.  So much for my morning-paper-reading attention span.
>With Tesco however, if I do an online order, which I usually do, I get
>'green points' if I don't ask for things to be delivered in carrier bags
>unless 'absolutely necessary'.  They are the ones who decide what is
>'absolutely necessary' but I do end up with very few bags.  When we do have
>a collection, I take them to a couple of local shops who don't have their
>own and they happily re-use them.  Otherwise, I have the good old wicker
>shopping basket and a canvas shopper.  Looking for a bicycle basket the
>other day (not for me!) I came across this lovely site with irresistible
>baskets on it.  I have no idea why they fascinate me so much but there is
>something so aesthetically pleasing about proper shopping baskets!
>http://www.somersetlevels.co.uk/shopping---carrying-baskets/

What you need is Granville delivering your groceries from the local shop.
-- 

Martin

In reply to 'Mike' (3d&6d@woolies.com) who wrote this in 
4JmdnZQr9b734qTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com, I, Marvo, say :

Mike, do you have an email address I can contact you at, please?

You can email me direct (remove the daft bit) if you like.

Unc

Charlie Pridham wrote:

> Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
> bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people
> that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if
> anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic,
> we remain interested to hear about them.

Try Bio bags:
http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246

I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they might be too 
small for your plants.

-- 
Linz
Wet Yorks

On Nov 13, 10:01 am, "Miles - Nature"  wrote:
> "Bob Hobden"  wrote in message
>
> news:5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net...> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> > The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> > excellent.
> >http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> > and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> > --
> > Regards
> > Bob Hobden
> > 17mls W. of London.UK
>
> There is an awful load of rubbish being spread about - about rubbish.
> First the website spends a long time wailing about all the plastic in the
> world.
> Straw man. It's only the plastic bags that are this issue.
> I wonder if there are any facts available on the effectiveness of projects
> like
> this. My suspicion is that they are ways some people try to assuage their
> guilt about their useage of resources.
> Take Christmas for example. How many of the people involved in that project
> will buy more plastic in one set of Christmas presents than a whole years
> useage
> of plastic bags?
>

The average number of plastic bags that one family goes through per
week is surprisingly high (maybe a dozen; maybe more; I do not have
the number to hand).
Multiply it up across a country and it becomes staggering.  In
Ireland, we had a dreadful litter problem from them and we simply
banned them (banned giving them away free; you are allowed to sell
them; it is s small cost; maybe 20cents; I cannot remember as I have
not bought one in years).  It worked overnight.  It still does not
cure cancer or fix all the other dreadful things we are doing to the
environment but it was an easy fix that stopped this particular lot of
waste.  You are right in saying that it could lead to complacency
(e.g. "well that's all fixed now" mentality) but it was still worth
doing.


> How many of them take their kids to school in a car when 15 minutes less
> sleep
> would give them time to walk them to school? How many have 4 by 4 vehicles,
> never used for what they are designed, but to provide a fearful owner the
> false
> sense of protection from collision?
> How many have a place in Europe, and are frequent fliers?
> When all this is answered, it will still be a useless effort to leave well
> meaning people
> to be careful about their carbon footprint and prudence when using
> materials.
>
> Only governments have the power to force selfish people to behave sensibly.

"Uncle Marvo"  wrote in message 
news:5ptfp2Ft0voqU1@mid.individual.net...
> In reply to 'Mike' (3d&6d@woolies.com) who wrote this in 
> 4JmdnZQr9b734qTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com, I, Marvo, say :
>
> Mike, do you have an email address I can contact you at, please?
>
> You can email me direct (remove the daft bit) if you like.
>
> Unc
>
Very easy to find.

Follow the threads/links in the sig

3 email addresses there alone :-)

Look forward to hearing from you

Best wishes

Mike


-- 
www.rnshipmates.co.uk for ALL Royal Navy Association matters
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will be there.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:48:48 -0800, Des Higgins  wrote:

>On Nov 13, 10:01 am, "Miles - Nature"  wrote:
>> "Bob Hobden"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net...> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>> > The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>> > excellent.
>> >http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>
>> > and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>> > --
>> > Regards
>> > Bob Hobden
>> > 17mls W. of London.UK
>>
>> There is an awful load of rubbish being spread about - about rubbish.
>> First the website spends a long time wailing about all the plastic in the
>> world.
>> Straw man. It's only the plastic bags that are this issue.
>> I wonder if there are any facts available on the effectiveness of projects
>> like
>> this. My suspicion is that they are ways some people try to assuage their
>> guilt about their useage of resources.
>> Take Christmas for example. How many of the people involved in that project
>> will buy more plastic in one set of Christmas presents than a whole years
>> useage
>> of plastic bags?
>>
>
>The average number of plastic bags that one family goes through per
>week is surprisingly high (maybe a dozen; maybe more; I do not have
>the number to hand).
>Multiply it up across a country and it becomes staggering.  In
>Ireland, we had a dreadful litter problem from them and we simply
>banned them (banned giving them away free; you are allowed to sell
>them; it is s small cost; maybe 20cents; I cannot remember as I have
>not bought one in years).  It worked overnight.  

Do you also have a significant deposit on PEP bottles to make people return them
to supermarkets? Big business is pressuring the EU to make charging a deposit
illegal.
-- 

Martin

In reply to Martin (me@address.invalid) who wrote this in 
kr4jj395uceje8ir1sruauhjqjjfs5spb8@4ax.com, I, Marvo, say :

> Do you also have a significant deposit on PEP bottles to make people
> return them to supermarkets? Big business is pressuring the EU to
> make charging a deposit illegal.

Is PEP a plastic bottle, like a water bottle?

I understand that we ship them to China to be burnt. I find that disgusting 
for a variety of reasons. Why can't we have biodegradable or properly 
recycleable ones, it must be possible?

On Nov 13, 12:09 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:48:48 -0800, Des Higgins  wrote:
> >On Nov 13, 10:01 am, "Miles - Nature"  wrote:
> >> "Bob Hobden"  wrote in message
>
> >>news:5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net...> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> >> > The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> >> > excellent.
> >> >http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> >> > and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> >> > --
> >> > Regards
> >> > Bob Hobden
> >> > 17mls W. of London.UK
>
> >> There is an awful load of rubbish being spread about - about rubbish.
> >> First the website spends a long time wailing about all the plastic in the
> >> world.
> >> Straw man. It's only the plastic bags that are this issue.
> >> I wonder if there are any facts available on the effectiveness of projects
> >> like
> >> this. My suspicion is that they are ways some people try to assuage their
> >> guilt about their useage of resources.
> >> Take Christmas for example. How many of the people involved in that project
> >> will buy more plastic in one set of Christmas presents than a whole years
> >> useage
> >> of plastic bags?
>
> >The average number of plastic bags that one family goes through per
> >week is surprisingly high (maybe a dozen; maybe more; I do not have
> >the number to hand).
> >Multiply it up across a country and it becomes staggering.  In
> >Ireland, we had a dreadful litter problem from them and we simply
> >banned them (banned giving them away free; you are allowed to sell
> >them; it is s small cost; maybe 20cents; I cannot remember as I have
> >not bought one in years).  It worked overnight.
>
> Do you also have a significant deposit on PEP bottles to make people return them
> to supermarkets? Big business is pressuring the EU to make charging a deposit
> illegal.
> --
>
> Martin

No; no deposit.  There are quite a few "recycling" points for them
which makes it look ok but I THINK most of them get sent to China to
be incinerated (not quite as wasteful as it sounds as there is a long
line of empty ships going back to China after delivering stuff to
Europe and they do generate some heat and electricity from it)  which
kind of defeats the purpose.  At least it stops them going to landfill
but I am not sure how easy it is to genuinely recycle them.  As a
society we generate vast amounts of them.

Des

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:12:14 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
 wrote:

>In reply to Martin (me@address.invalid) who wrote this in 
>kr4jj395uceje8ir1sruauhjqjjfs5spb8@4ax.com, I, Marvo, say :
>
>> Do you also have a significant deposit on PEP bottles to make people
>> return them to supermarkets? Big business is pressuring the EU to
>> make charging a deposit illegal.
>
>Is PEP a plastic bottle, like a water bottle?

Yes 

>
>I understand that we ship them to China to be burnt. I find that disgusting 
>for a variety of reasons. Why can't we have biodegradable or properly 
>recycleable ones, it must be possible? 

Big business goes for the cheapest solution?
-- 

Martin

In reply to Martin (me@address.invalid) who wrote this in 
la5jj398gtr35hecieesb41tqtm60qtuik@4ax.com, I, Marvo, say :

> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:12:14 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
>  wrote:
>
>> In reply to Martin (me@address.invalid) who wrote this in
>> kr4jj395uceje8ir1sruauhjqjjfs5spb8@4ax.com, I, Marvo, say :
>>
>>> Do you also have a significant deposit on PEP bottles to make people
>>> return them to supermarkets? Big business is pressuring the EU to
>>> make charging a deposit illegal.
>>
>> Is PEP a plastic bottle, like a water bottle?
>
> Yes
>
>>
>> I understand that we ship them to China to be burnt. I find that
>> disgusting for a variety of reasons. Why can't we have biodegradable
>> or properly recycleable ones, it must be possible?
>
> Big business goes for the cheapest solution?

Big business is a b'stard. I buy them occasionally cos the tank water tastes 
pretty horrible if it isn't boiled, but I used to be able to fill them up 
with tap water. I can't now because most of them have non-removeable lids 
which purport to be "for easy pouring". That is not the reason, obv.

And before anyone says that filling plastic bottles with tap water causes 
cancer, look at snopes or urbanmyth :-)

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:24:04 +0000, Sacha wrote
(in article <C35F2BC4.5ECDD%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>):

> On 13/11/07 09:48, in article
> 0001HW.C35F2351003AA99BF0182648@news.individual.net, "Sally Thompson"
> <sallynewsgroup@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
>>> 
>> 
>> Huh!  Then why is it, I ask myself, when I (rarely) shop at Tesco's, and
>> stand there waving my own canvas bags and saying "I've got my own bags", do
>> they just automatically spread out the plastic ones in my way.  I have been
>> known to have to say this three times before they take any notice.  And why,
>> then, when I say, patiently, "you will re-use those, won't you?" when the
>> bags are then shoved under the counter, do they look at me blankly as though
>> I come from Mars?
>> 
>> It's all right, you don't need to answer that - just my morning rant for the
>> day :-)
>> 
> 
> ;-))  Feeling better?  I think they've only just started this initiative -
> and I hope I'm right it's Tesco because now I've got a sneaky feeling I'm
> not and it's M&S.  So much for my morning-paper-reading attention span.
> With Tesco however, if I do an online order, which I usually do, I get
> 'green points' if I don't ask for things to be delivered in carrier bags
> unless 'absolutely necessary'.  They are the ones who decide what is
> 'absolutely necessary' but I do end up with very few bags.  When we do have
> a collection, I take them to a couple of local shops who don't have their
> own and they happily re-use them.  Otherwise, I have the good old wicker
> shopping basket and a canvas shopper.  Looking for a bicycle basket the
> other day (not for me!) I came across this lovely site with irresistible
> baskets on it.  I have no idea why they fascinate me so much but there is
> something so aesthetically pleasing about proper shopping baskets!
> http://www.somersetlevels.co.uk/shopping---carrying-baskets/
> 

Nice baskets, but I think I would feel seriously old with the basket on 
wheels<g>

We have our own green heavy-weight ones which are fantastic for shopping:
<http://www.localtoludlow.org.uk/news.html> (scroll down to the green ones 
shown under October 2006).


-- 
Sally in Shropshire, UK
<http://www.freerice.com/index.php>
Give free rice to hungry people by playing a simple word game

"Sally Thompson" <sallynewsgroup@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message >
> We have our own green heavy-weight ones which are fantastic for shopping:
> <http://www.localtoludlow.org.uk/news.html> (scroll down to the green ones
> shown under October 2006).
>

That is the type we use. Fantastic. They fold flat. Are just the right size 
for all sorts of things. We have 4 and can get our shop into them usually, 
if not we use the Supermarket plastic bags and re-use them in the flip top 
rubbish bin or nasties before putting them in the dustbin

But those canvas bags are wonderful

Mike


-- 
www.rnshipmates.co.uk for ALL Royal Navy Association matters
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will be there.

On 13/11/07 12:47, in article
0001HW.C35F4D5C003F2730F0182648@news.individual.net, "Sally Thompson"
<sallynewsgroup@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:24:04 +0000, Sacha wrote
> (in article <C35F2BC4.5ECDD%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>):
> 
>> On 13/11/07 09:48, in article
>> 0001HW.C35F2351003AA99BF0182648@news.individual.net, "Sally Thompson"
>> <sallynewsgroup@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> <snip>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Huh!  Then why is it, I ask myself, when I (rarely) shop at Tesco's, and
>>> stand there waving my own canvas bags and saying "I've got my own bags", do
>>> they just automatically spread out the plastic ones in my way.  I have been
>>> known to have to say this three times before they take any notice.  And why,
>>> then, when I say, patiently, "you will re-use those, won't you?" when the
>>> bags are then shoved under the counter, do they look at me blankly as though
>>> I come from Mars?
>>> 
>>> It's all right, you don't need to answer that - just my morning rant for the
>>> day :-)
>>> 
>> 
>> ;-))  Feeling better?  I think they've only just started this initiative -
>> and I hope I'm right it's Tesco because now I've got a sneaky feeling I'm
>> not and it's M&S.  So much for my morning-paper-reading attention span.
>> With Tesco however, if I do an online order, which I usually do, I get
>> 'green points' if I don't ask for things to be delivered in carrier bags
>> unless 'absolutely necessary'.  They are the ones who decide what is
>> 'absolutely necessary' but I do end up with very few bags.  When we do have
>> a collection, I take them to a couple of local shops who don't have their
>> own and they happily re-use them.  Otherwise, I have the good old wicker
>> shopping basket and a canvas shopper.  Looking for a bicycle basket the
>> other day (not for me!) I came across this lovely site with irresistible
>> baskets on it.  I have no idea why they fascinate me so much but there is
>> something so aesthetically pleasing about proper shopping baskets!
>> http://www.somersetlevels.co.uk/shopping---carrying-baskets/
>> 
> 
> Nice baskets, but I think I would feel seriously old with the basket on
> wheels<g>

Tempting to add a couple of bread knives to the axle, though eh?  ;-)
> 
> We have our own green heavy-weight ones which are fantastic for shopping:
> <http://www.localtoludlow.org.uk/news.html> (scroll down to the green ones
> shown under October 2006).
> 
Very good site and the bags look rather like the one I've bought from
Riverford Farm, except that theirs have wooden handles.
I'm sure our town council must be aware of the Modbury initiative but I'm
going to forward this to them, too.  I've also contacted the Bio polybag co.
for quotes so I'm hoping they're not too expensive.

-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"'Mike'" <3d&6d@woolies.com> wrote in message 
news:4JmdnZQr9b734qTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
>
>
>>
>> We use some plastic bags but our main 'carriers' are shallow cardboard
>> trays.  They arrive flat and we make them up as needed.  On busy days we
>> could almost have one person doing that job.
>> I think they cost us about 15p each
>
>> -- 
>> Sacha
>
> 15p plus the labour cost of making them up. How many can that 'one person' 
> make up per hour and what is the hourly rate?
>
> So many businesses don't take the full cost of an item into consideration.
>
> I was looking at a Roadside Public House which is on the market and the 
> cost of what I call 'Dead Money' on the Rent and Rates alone is £207.00 
> PER DAY.
>
> When I had my factories, I did a 'Dead Money' calculation on Rent, Rates, 
> Gas and Electric Standing Charge, Telephone Rent, Insurances etc etc, 
> added it all up for the year and divided by 365. That was the cost, 
> Sundays, Christmas Day etc that was 'Money down the drain' BEFORE I paid 
> for the first member of staff to come in and switch a light on, flush the 
> loo, turn the heating up etc etc.
>
> One of the hidden considerations I included in my book on starting a 
> business.
>
> Sacha. Have you done a 'Dead Money' calculation? What it costs per day to 
> run your place as a business? I doubt it, not many do :-( They wait for 
> the end of the year, hand their books to the Accountant and then a year 
> after the Financial Year has closed, see how well they didn't do 18 months 
> ago :-(
>
> Mike
>

Well what do you know?

Just picked this up off the front page :-))
..........................................................

      Hidden costs 'raise US war price'

            US Democrats say the wars are costing the US too much
      The US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are costing nearly double the 
amount previously thought, according to a report set to be released by 
Congress.
      Democrats say the wars have cost $1.5 trillion - almost twice the 
requested $804bn (£402bn) - because of "hidden costs", the Washington Post 
reports.



.......................................................
Kindest regards

Mike
Who didn't come down with the last shower of rain :-)))
-- 
www.rnshipmates.co.uk for ALL Royal Navy Association matters
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will be there.

In article , spam@lindsayendell.co.uk 
says...
> Charlie Pridham wrote:
> 
> > Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
> > bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people
> > that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if
> > anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic,
> > we remain interested to hear about them.
> 
> Try Bio bags:
> http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246
> 
> I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they might be too 
> small for your plants.
> 
> 
Thanks for that, they look the part, just need to find a stockest down 
here (we only use a  thousand per year)
-- 
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk 
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and 
Lapageria rosea

On 13/11/07 14:33, in article MPG.21a3c60670653fc9896d8@News.Individual.NET,
"Charlie Pridham"  wrote:

> In article , spam@lindsayendell.co.uk
> says...
>> Charlie Pridham wrote:
>> 
>>> Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
>>> bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people
>>> that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if
>>> anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic,
>>> we remain interested to hear about them.
>> 
>> Try Bio bags:
>> http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246
>> 
>> I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they might be too
>> small for your plants.
>> 
>> 
> Thanks for that, they look the part, just need to find a stockest down
> here (we only use a  thousand per year)

Charlie, we use http://torbaypackaging.co.uk/ for some boxes but I don't
think they do biodegradable stuff.  I'll email them to find out.
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

> 
> 
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden" bobh@invalid.com
> wrote:
> 
> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic
> bags.
> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> excellent.
> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
> 
> 

In the old days, supermarkets put out their cardboard boxes for you to
put stuff in, or charged you 10p for a carrier bag. What do they do
with all the boxes nowadays?

Incidentally if it's a plastic bag free town what do people put their
rubbish in for the dustmen to collect? Putting "naked" food waste in a
wheelly bin is extremely unhygienic.




-- 
Granity

In reply to Granity (Granity.1af6cb7@gardenbanter.co.uk) who wrote this in 
Granity.1af6cb7@gardenbanter.co.uk, I, Marvo, say :

>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden" bobh@invalid.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic
>> bags.
>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>> excellent.
>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>
>>
>
> In the old days, supermarkets put out their cardboard boxes for you to
> put stuff in, or charged you 10p for a carrier bag. What do they do
> with all the boxes nowadays?
>
> Incidentally if it's a plastic bag free town what do people put their
> rubbish in for the dustmen to collect? Putting "naked" food waste in a
> wheelly bin is extremely unhygienic.

Good point. I use plastic co-op bags (which are biodegradeable), but I bet 
the townspeople buy binbags.

You can still get boxes in the co-op, they stack them against the wall by 
the door and you help yourself. Some supermarkets, such as my local 
Waitrose, never have them available. I expect they sell them :-)

In article <C35F691E.5ED8B%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>, 
sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
> On 13/11/07 14:33, in article MPG.21a3c60670653fc9896d8@News.Individual.NET,
> "Charlie Pridham"  wrote:
> 
> > In article , spam@lindsayendell.co.uk
> > says...
> >> Charlie Pridham wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
> >>> bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people
> >>> that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if
> >>> anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic,
> >>> we remain interested to hear about them.
> >> 
> >> Try Bio bags:
> >> http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246
> >> 
> >> I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they might be too
> >> small for your plants.
> >> 
> >> 
> > Thanks for that, they look the part, just need to find a stockest down
> > here (we only use a  thousand per year)
> 
> Charlie, we use http://torbaypackaging.co.uk/ for some boxes but I don't
> think they do biodegradable stuff.  I'll email them to find out.
> 
Just found this while googling for bio bags (which are very expensive by 
the way 8X more than plastic) It made rather interesting reading and goes 
some way to explain why the government are not pushing that hard to 
change things.
www.defra.gov.uk/environment/localenv/litter/plasticbags/index.htm#bio
-- 
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk 
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and 
Lapageria rosea

On Nov 12, 8:14 pm, Des Higgins  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 5:30 pm, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Martin"  wrote after
> >  "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>
> > >>Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> > >>The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> > >>excellent.
> > >>http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> > >>and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>
> > > I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>
> > The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town a
> > re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a small
> > charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers made of corn
> > starch .....this  must be the way to go.
>
> > --
> > Regards
> > Bob Hobden
> > 17mls W. of London.UK
>
> It has been illegal to give free plastic bags in Irish shops for a few
> years now.  You can get them but have to ask and have to pay.  Ireland
> used to have an appalling litter problem; overnight we went from that
> to merely having a bad litter problem.  It needed a simple act of
> government.  Since then, people have gotten used to bringing their own
> bags when going shopping.  One barrier at the time was the amount of
> economic activity that went onto making and distributing the
> disposable bags; it is a big business.  It worked almost immediately
> and the supermarkets surived quite happily despite all the bleating
> they did before hand, moaning about how civilisation would end etc.
>
> Des- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What's really funny now is travelling to other countries, and feeling
majorly imposed upon at being handed a plastic bag for the purchase of
1 small very portable item.

Cat(h)

In reply to Cat(h) (cathy_ie@yahoo.com) who wrote this in 
1194967969.060741.44370@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com, I, Marvo, say :

> On Nov 12, 8:14 pm, Des Higgins  wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 5:30 pm, "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Martin"  wrote after
>>>  "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>
>>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic
>>>>> bags. The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How
>>>>> to" page is excellent.
>>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>
>>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>
>>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>>
>>> The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town
>>> a re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a
>>> small charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers
>>> made of corn starch .....this  must be the way to go.
>>
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>> Bob Hobden
>>> 17mls W. of London.UK
>>
>> It has been illegal to give free plastic bags in Irish shops for a
>> few years now.  You can get them but have to ask and have to pay.
>> Ireland used to have an appalling litter problem; overnight we went
>> from that to merely having a bad litter problem.  It needed a simple
>> act of government.  Since then, people have gotten used to bringing
>> their own bags when going shopping.  One barrier at the time was the
>> amount of economic activity that went onto making and distributing
>> the disposable bags; it is a big business.  It worked almost
>> immediately and the supermarkets surived quite happily despite all
>> the bleating they did before hand, moaning about how civilisation
>> would end etc.
>>
>> Des- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> What's really funny now is travelling to other countries, and feeling
> majorly imposed upon at being handed a plastic bag for the purchase of
> 1 small very portable item.
>
> Cat(h)

I found that in Spain recently. They like their bags. On the other hand, the 
streets are paved with recycling bins, which is great. And they have bins on 
railway stations. In bars, you just lob everything on the floor and it 
magically disappears every night.

In article , 
Granity.1af6cb7@gardenbanter.co.uk says...
> 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden" bobh@invalid.com
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic
> > bags.
> > The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> > excellent.
> > http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
> > 
> > 
> 
> In the old days, supermarkets put out their cardboard boxes for you to
> put stuff in, or charged you 10p for a carrier bag. What do they do
> with all the boxes nowadays?
> 
> Incidentally if it's a plastic bag free town what do people put their
> rubbish in for the dustmen to collect? Putting "naked" food waste in a
> wheelly bin is extremely unhygienic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
They still put boxes out but now everyone is grabbibg them there are 
never enough! We keep the reusable bags in our van so they are always to 
hand.
-- 
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk 
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and 
Lapageria rosea

In reply to Charlie Pridham (charlie@roselandhouse.co.uk) who wrote this in 
MPG.21a3d397a81d3bfe9896d9@News.Individual.NET, I, Marvo, say :

> In article <C35F691E.5ED8B%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>,
> sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
>> On 13/11/07 14:33, in article
>> MPG.21a3c60670653fc9896d8@News.Individual.NET, "Charlie Pridham"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> In article ,
>>> spam@lindsayendell.co.uk says...
>>>> Charlie Pridham wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
>>>>> bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to
>>>>> people that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well!
>>>>> so if anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of
>>>>> plastic, we remain interested to hear about them.
>>>>
>>>> Try Bio bags:
>>>> http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246
>>>>
>>>> I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they
>>>> might be too small for your plants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thanks for that, they look the part, just need to find a stockest
>>> down here (we only use a  thousand per year)
>>
>> Charlie, we use http://torbaypackaging.co.uk/ for some boxes but I
>> don't think they do biodegradable stuff.  I'll email them to find
>> out.
>>
> Just found this while googling for bio bags (which are very expensive
> by the way 8X more than plastic) It made rather interesting reading
> and goes some way to explain why the government are not pushing that
> hard to change things.
> www.defra.gov.uk/environment/localenv/litter/plasticbags/index.htm#bio

Yes, I sometimes wish I could believe some of the misguided twaddle put out 
by DEFRA too. That article is condescending, implying that everybody is 
stupid and doesn't know how to work a bag.

I particularly like "Government is taking steps to help tackle this form of 
littering through a combination of regulatory options, partnership work and 
awareness-raising. " The "form" of littering referred to is cigarette 
litter.

A better option might be an invention called an "ashtray". Most pubs have 
many more than they need now.

On 13/11/07 11:32, in article Granity.1af6cb7@gardenbanter.co.uk, "Granity"
 wrote:

> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:13:21 -0000, "Bob Hobden" bobh@invalid.com
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic
>> bags.
>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>> excellent.
>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>> 
>> 
> 
> In the old days, supermarkets put out their cardboard boxes for you to
> put stuff in, or charged you 10p for a carrier bag. What do they do
> with all the boxes nowadays?

I think they have to squash them flat and either take them to a tip or pay
for them to be taken away as trade waste.  Last time I asked for one, I was
told that the store concerned had been told they couldn't keep them for
customers as they constitute a fire hazard.
> 
> Incidentally if it's a plastic bag free town what do people put their
> rubbish in for the dustmen to collect? Putting "naked" food waste in a
> wheelly bin is extremely unhygienic.
> 
> 
> 
You aren't allowed to use plastic bags for food rubbish in this area anyway.
We buy special paper bags and sacks for the caddy bins that go under the
sink and the wheelie bins outside.  We are only allowed to use plastic bags
- supplied by the South Hams District Council - for cardboard, newspapers,
general paper waste and another for tins and clear plastic bottles.  Modbury
also comes under the SHDC.  Those bags can be ordered online and are free,
the paper sacks or bags have to be bought, or you wrap your food waste in
old newspapers if you can't compost it.

-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 13/11/07 15:31, in article
MPG.21a3d397a81d3bfe9896d9@News.Individual.NET, "Charlie Pridham"
 wrote:

> In article <C35F691E.5ED8B%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk>,
> sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk says...
>> On 13/11/07 14:33, in article MPG.21a3c60670653fc9896d8@News.Individual.NET,
>> "Charlie Pridham"  wrote:
>> 
>>> In article , spam@lindsayendell.co.uk
>>> says...
>>>> Charlie Pridham wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
>>>>> bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people
>>>>> that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if
>>>>> anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic,
>>>>> we remain interested to hear about them.
>>>> 
>>>> Try Bio bags:
>>>> http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246
>>>> 
>>>> I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they might be too
>>>> small for your plants.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Thanks for that, they look the part, just need to find a stockest down
>>> here (we only use a  thousand per year)
>> 
>> Charlie, we use http://torbaypackaging.co.uk/ for some boxes but I don't
>> think they do biodegradable stuff.  I'll email them to find out.
>> 
> Just found this while googling for bio bags (which are very expensive by
> the way 8X more than plastic) It made rather interesting reading and goes
> some way to explain why the government are not pushing that hard to
> change things.
> www.defra.gov.uk/environment/localenv/litter/plasticbags/index.htm#bio

Hm, they're not that interested, are they?  I'm afraid Defra just doesn't do
anything for me.
-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

The message 
from Granity  contains these words:

> In the old days, supermarkets put out their cardboard boxes for you to
> put stuff in, or charged you 10p for a carrier bag. What do they do
> with all the boxes nowadays?

> Incidentally if it's a plastic bag free town what do people put their
> rubbish in for the dustmen to collect? Putting "naked" food waste in a
> wheelly bin is extremely unhygienic.

In Bristol we are *not* allowed to put food waste in plastic bags. 

We are provided with a very small (20/25/12 cm approx) lidded bin for 
waste in the kitchen. When full this is emptied into a 'larger small
bin' with 
a secure -ish lid . This rubbish is collected weekly.

Food waste can be wrapped in newspaper so I don't find the bin gets very
dirty.

Garden rubbish can either be put in green sacks (bought from the council) 
or a green wheelie bin (again bought from the council, so one owns it) then
one has to pay a  25quid (IIRC)  annual collection fee. Flattened
cardboard can
also go in this bin. 

The green bin and black box are also collected weekly. Black wheelie ie all 
other waste only once a fortnight. Plastic bottles can be taken to a 'plastic
bottle bank' or put in the black wheelie bin.

   .... and the bin men do sort the stuff as they go along, ie it is not
all dumped
into one heap in their lorry - so hopefully it really does get recycled.

Jennifer

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:26:08 -0000, "Amethyst Deceiver"
 wrote:

>Charlie Pridham wrote:
>
>> Boxes are fine at the nursery but at shows and plant sales, we use
>> bags, some customers bring their own, but we need to sell to people
>> that did not realise they wanted to buy something as well! so if
>> anyone knows of bags like plastic carriers but not made of plastic,
>> we remain interested to hear about them.
>
>Try Bio bags:
>http://www.biobag.no/default.pl?showPage=246
>
>I was going to suggest compostable nappy bags but thought they might be too 
>small for your plants.

STFU! Ugly bitch.

On 13/11/07 17:52, in article 31303030303835344739E44D73@zetnet.co.uk,
"Jennifer Sparkes"  wrote:

> The message 
> from Granity  contains these words:
> 
>> In the old days, supermarkets put out their cardboard boxes for you to
>> put stuff in, or charged you 10p for a carrier bag. What do they do
>> with all the boxes nowadays?
> 
>> Incidentally if it's a plastic bag free town what do people put their
>> rubbish in for the dustmen to collect? Putting "naked" food waste in a
>> wheelly bin is extremely unhygienic.
> 
> In Bristol we are *not* allowed to put food waste in plastic bags.
> 
> We are provided with a very small (20/25/12 cm approx) lidded bin for
> waste in the kitchen. When full this is emptied into a 'larger small
> bin' with 
> a secure -ish lid . This rubbish is collected weekly.

Lucky you.  Ours is collected every fortnight, which is disgusting.  I
should buy shares in Domestos, Jeyes and Dettol!   Trade waste e.g. the tea
room goes every week but we pay extra for that.

-- 
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

In reply to Sacha (sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk) who wrote this in 
C35F7C91.5EDAE%sacha@gardenweeds506.fsnet.co.uk, I, Marvo, say :

> Hm, they're not that interested, are they?  I'm afraid Defra just
> doesn't do anything for me.

You'd be unique if they did :-)

"Bob Hobden"  wrote in message
news:5prgs7Fpna05U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Martin"  wrote after
> "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>excellent.
>>>http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>
>>>and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>
>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>
> The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town a
> re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a small
> charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers made of corn
> starch .....this  must be the way to go.
>
In some ways it's the way Ireland went a few years back, they put a tax on
disposable carrier bags, the shops handed out "lifetime" bags and it works
extremely well, bag usage down by 95% or so.
Here in Barbados all the carrier bags I have seen have been stamped
biodegradeable with a web site which I see is a UK based company marked on 
them.
www.degradable.net
Why is UK government so far behind?


-- 
Chris, Sugar Hill, Barbados
A little learning is a dangerous thing, but it still beats total ignorance.

In reply to Cerumen (cerumen.chris@gmail.com) who wrote this in 
fhepq1$o4c$1@registered.motzarella.org, I, Marvo, say :

> Why is UK government so far behind?

How long have you got?

:-)

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:41:07 -0000, "Uncle Marvo"
 wrote:

>In reply to Cerumen (cerumen.chris@gmail.com) who wrote this in 
>fhepq1$o4c$1@registered.motzarella.org, I, Marvo, say :
>
>> Why is UK government so far behind?
>
>How long have you got?
>
>:-) 

LOL
-- 

Martin

On Nov 13, 3:48 am, Des Higgins  wrote:
> On Nov 13, 10:01 am, "Miles - Nature"  wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Bob Hobden"  wrote in message
>
> >news:5prfrsFsp7u4U1@mid.individual.net...> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
> > > The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
> > > excellent.
> > >http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>
> > > and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
> > > --
> > > Regards
> > > Bob Hobden
> > > 17mls W. of London.UK
>
> > There is an awful load of rubbish being spread about - about rubbish.
> > First the website spends a long time wailing about all the plastic in the
> > world.
> > Straw man. It's only the plastic bags that are this issue.
> > I wonder if there are any facts available on the effectiveness of projects
> > like
> > this. My suspicion is that they are ways some people try to assuage their
> > guilt about their useage of resources.
> > Take Christmas for example. How many of the people involved in that project
> > will buy more plastic in one set of Christmas presents than a whole years
> > useage
> > of plastic bags?
>
> The average number of plastic bags that one family goes through per
> week is surprisingly high (maybe a dozen; maybe more; I do not have
> the number to hand).
> Multiply it up across a country and it becomes staggering.  In
> Ireland, we had a dreadful litter problem from them and we simply
> banned them (banned giving them away free; you are allowed to sell
> them; it is s small cost; maybe 20cents; I cannot remember as I have
> not bought one in years).  It worked overnight.  It still does not
> cure cancer or fix all the other dreadful things we are doing to the
> environment but it was an easy fix that stopped this particular lot of
> waste.  You are right in saying that it could lead to complacency
> (e.g. "well that's all fixed now" mentality) but it was still worth
> doing.
>
> > How many of them take their kids to school in a car when 15 minutes less
> > sleep
> > would give them time to walk them to school? How many have 4 by 4 vehicles,
> > never used for what they are designed, but to provide a fearful owner the
> > false
> > sense of protection from collision?
> > How many have a place in Europe, and are frequent fliers?
> > When all this is answered, it will still be a useless effort to leave well
> > meaning people
> > to be careful about their carbon footprint and prudence when using
> > materials.
>
> > Only governments have the power to force selfish people to behave sensibly.

I used to get that many (a dozen) every time I shopped. Plus half a
dozen cardboard boxes for frozen foods I grab out of the hands of the
floor-stockers before they can cut them up for compacting / resale
back to the paper industry.

I don't feel guilty, because the store where I turn the plastic bags
in (which also just sold me 4 lifetime-warranty fiber shopping bags,
total cost $2.19) --recycles the returned plastic bags into park-type
benches. The best of both worlds.
(And I still use the occasional plastic grocery-bag to line my food-
waste, aluminum can, paper-recycling, etc, trash cans.)

On 14/11/07 12:30, in article fhepq1$o4c$1@registered.motzarella.org,
"Cerumen"  wrote:

> 
> "Bob Hobden"  wrote in message
> news:5prgs7Fpna05U1@mid.individual.net...
>> 
>> "Martin"  wrote after
>> "Bob Hobden"  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Interesting site about Modbury, the town that has banned plastic bags.
>>>> The video of a speech by Ray Anderson on the "Why and How to" page is
>>>> excellent.
>>>> http://www.plasticbagfree.com/index.php
>>>> 
>>>> and if anyone thinks this is OT for this ng check out the site.
>>> 
>>> I'd be more impressed if they were giving away reuseable bags.
>> 
>> The site says that the local Co-op gave every household in the town a
>> re-usable cotton bag, further re-usable bags are available at a small
>> charge, even the take-always use biodegradable containers made of corn
>> starch .....this  must be the way to go.
>> 
> In some ways it's the way Ireland went a few years back, they put a tax on
> disposable carrier bags