Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
function with or without controller power being present and simply
require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.

Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?

Regards

Sailor wrote:
> 
> Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> function with or without controller power being present and simply
> require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
> 
> Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
> 
> Regards


Yes.
Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)

Detectors come in two broad categories:
- passing a point.
- stock in block detection.

They can also be divided into:
- general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
- specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)

If you use point detection for block occupation then you need several
detectors and additional logic to retain that information.
If you use specific trigger detection such as magnet and reed switch
then your system fails when unfitted stock is used on the layout.


Greg.P.

On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
>
> > Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> > more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> > Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> > just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> > function with or without controller power being present and simply
> > require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> > on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> > was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
>
> > Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> > If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
>
> > Regards
>
> Yes.
> Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
>
> Detectors come in two broad categories:
> - passing a point.
> - stock in block detection.
>
> They can also be divided into:
> - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
> - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)

And further divided:
- Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
- Non-specific (all the rest)

You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
and how the information will be used.

MBQ

On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
wrote:
> On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> > > more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> > > Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> > > just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> > > function with or without controller power being present and simply
> > > require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> > > on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> > > was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
>
> > > Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> > > If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
>
> > > Regards
>
> > Yes.
> > Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
>
> > Detectors come in two broad categories:
> > - passing a point.
> > - stock in block detection.
>
> > They can also be divided into:
> > - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
> > - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)
>
> And further divided:
> - Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
> transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
> - Non-specific (all the rest)
>
> You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
> and how the information will be used.
>
> MBQ

Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
can be routed via diode
isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
rethink he wiring a tad!

Regards

Sailor wrote:
> On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> wrote:
>> On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Sailor wrote:
>>>> Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
>>>> more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
>>>> Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
>>>> just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
>>>> function with or without controller power being present and simply
>>>> require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
>>>> on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
>>>> was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
>>>> Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
>>>> If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
>>>> Regards
>>> Yes.
>>> Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
>>> Detectors come in two broad categories:
>>> - passing a point.
>>> - stock in block detection.
>>> They can also be divided into:
>>> - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
>>> - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)
>> And further divided:
>> - Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
>> transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
>> - Non-specific (all the rest)
>>
>> You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
>> and how the information will be used.
>>
>> MBQ
> 
> Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> can be routed via diode
> isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> rethink he wiring a tad!
> 
> Regards
If you want whole train detection you will need to add resisters across 
the wheels of your wagons and coaches.

Chris

Sailor wrote:
> On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> can be routed via diode
> isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> rethink he wiring a tad!

It might be simpler to glue some strong magnets below stock and use reed 
relays on the relevant track sections.
Small magnets are really really small, well under 1mm cube being readily 
available.
Or a LED based beam-breaking system trackside (or below track with another 
part above train)

Otherwise, I'd head down the DCC route, probably with a Loconet (Digitrax 
based) offering the widest range of options; CML in the UK make a number of 
interesting boards which talk LocoNet.



- Nigel


-- 
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

On Jun 17, 6:49 pm, "Nigel Cliffe"  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
> > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> > can be routed via diode
> > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> > rethink he wiring a tad!
>
> It might be simpler to glue some strong magnets below stock and use reed
> relays on the relevant track sections.
> Small magnets are really really small, well under 1mm cube being readily
> available.
> Or a LED based beam-breaking system trackside (or below track with another
> part above train)
>
> Otherwise, I'd head down the DCC route, probably with a Loconet (Digitrax
> based) offering the widest range of options; CML in the UK make a number of
> interesting boards which talk LocoNet.
>
> - Nigel
>
> --
> Nigel Cliffe,
> Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

I am thinking along the lines of sub dividing each section and using
loco only recognition. The movement into each subsection
( irrespective of main section) would then gate a series of
subsections in sequence ( the direction can be commanded) this will
generate a travelling block which remains open until the tail end sub
section of the next occupied section is encountered and power is run
down to stop.   This should allow two trains to run the same route
without fear of collision  --  mine always manage this in the most
awkward places!   This means that each travelling block covers it's
own butt end.

Regards

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> wrote:
> > On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> > > > more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> > > > Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> > > > just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> > > > function with or without controller power being present and simply
> > > > require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> > > > on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> > > > was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
> >
> > > > Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> > > > If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
> >
> > > > Regards
> >
> > > Yes.
> > > Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
> >
> > > Detectors come in two broad categories:
> > > - passing a point.
> > > - stock in block detection.
> >
> > > They can also be divided into:
> > > - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
> > > - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)
> >
> > And further divided:
> > - Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
> > transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
> > - Non-specific (all the rest)
> >
> > You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
> > and how the information will be used.
> >
> > MBQ
> 
> Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> can be routed via diode
> isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> rethink he wiring a tad!
> 
> Regards

Place a pair of series diodes (plus two reverse polarity) in each block
feed. Measure voltage (1.4v/0v) across the diodes and you have current
detection while the controller is above zero.
Add HF lighting or just a low current AC bias to your controller output
and you have constant current detection.
Add axle resistors or interior lighting to your brake vans and you have
'train' detection.
Add resistors to all rolling stock and you have full rolling stock
detection.
etc etc.

Greg.P.

Chris wrote:
> 
> Sailor wrote:
> > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > wrote:
> >> On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Sailor wrote:
> >>>> Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> >>>> more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> >>>> Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> >>>> just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> >>>> function with or without controller power being present and simply
> >>>> require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> >>>> on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> >>>> was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
> >>>> Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> >>>> If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
> >>>> Regards
> >>> Yes.
> >>> Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
> >>> Detectors come in two broad categories:
> >>> - passing a point.
> >>> - stock in block detection.
> >>> They can also be divided into:
> >>> - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
> >>> - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)
> >> And further divided:
> >> - Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
> >> transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
> >> - Non-specific (all the rest)
> >>
> >> You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
> >> and how the information will be used.
> >>
> >> MBQ
> >
> > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> > can be routed via diode
> > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> > rethink he wiring a tad!
> >
> > Regards
> If you want whole train detection you will need to add resisters across
> the wheels of your wagons and coaches.
> 
> Chris


If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
detect the extent of a given train.
In point of fact, you are detecting occupation of a given block. It is a
reasonable assumption that that occupation is by a train, but it could
be something else like a mouse dragging a coin, or a Matchbox car blown
by a breeze, or (insert your own ...)

Greg.P.

Nigel Cliffe wrote:
> 
> Sailor wrote:
> > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> > can be routed via diode
> > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> > rethink he wiring a tad!
> 
> It might be simpler to glue some strong magnets below stock and use reed
> relays on the relevant track sections.
> Small magnets are really really small, well under 1mm cube being readily
> available.
> Or a LED based beam-breaking system trackside (or below track with another
> part above train)
> 
> Otherwise, I'd head down the DCC route, probably with a Loconet (Digitrax
> based) offering the widest range of options; CML in the UK make a number of
> interesting boards which talk LocoNet.
> 
> - Nigel
> 
> --
> Nigel Cliffe,
> Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Reedswitches require modification to make your detection operate.
The DCC route still needs blocks for any detection to be relevant.

Greg.P.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:45:54 +1200, Greg Procter 
wrote:

>Nigel Cliffe wrote:
>> 
>> Sailor wrote:
>> > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
>> > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
>> > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
>> > can be routed via diode
>> > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
>> > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
>> > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
>> > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
>> > rethink he wiring a tad!
>> 
>> It might be simpler to glue some strong magnets below stock and use reed
>> relays on the relevant track sections.
>> Small magnets are really really small, well under 1mm cube being readily
>> available.
>> Or a LED based beam-breaking system trackside (or below track with another
>> part above train)
>> 
>> Otherwise, I'd head down the DCC route, probably with a Loconet (Digitrax
>> based) offering the widest range of options; CML in the UK make a number of
>> interesting boards which talk LocoNet.
>> 
>> - Nigel
>> 
>> --
>> Nigel Cliffe,
>> Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
>
>Reedswitches require modification to make your detection operate.
>The DCC route still needs blocks for any detection to be relevant.

RFID?

I understand John Burrow of the 7mm yahoo group has been doing some
experimenting.

>Greg.P.

On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
> > Sailor wrote:
> > > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > wrote:
> > >> On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
>
> > >>> Sailor wrote:
> > >>>> Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> > >>>> more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> > >>>> Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> > >>>> just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> > >>>> function with or without controller power being present and simply
> > >>>> require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> > >>>> on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> > >>>> was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
> > >>>> Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> > >>>> If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
> > >>>> Regards
> > >>> Yes.
> > >>> Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
> > >>> Detectors come in two broad categories:
> > >>> - passing a point.
> > >>> - stock in block detection.
> > >>> They can also be divided into:
> > >>> - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
> > >>> - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)
> > >> And further divided:
> > >> - Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
> > >> transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
> > >> - Non-specific (all the rest)
>
> > >> You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
> > >> and how the information will be used.
>
> > >> MBQ
>
> > > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> > > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> > > can be routed via diode
> > > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> > > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> > > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> > > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> > > rethink he wiring a tad!
>
> > > Regards
> > If you want whole train detection you will need to add resisters across
> > the wheels of your wagons and coaches.
>
> > Chris
>
> If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> detect the extent of a given train.
> In point of fact, you are detecting occupation of a given block. It is a
> reasonable assumption that that occupation is by a train, but it could
> be something else like a mouse dragging a coin, or a Matchbox car blown
> by a breeze, or (insert your own ...)
>
> Greg.P.

Yes agreed, this is the double Tee referred to by Roger Amos. He
provides detection under unpowered conditions using a bleed off from
the actual detector power supply in parallel to the Loco Controller
circuit.

I built one yesterday  and it is great on a single length but when
offered to my maze of wiring finds lots of alternative paths!    I
have realised that the only solution
is to double insulate sub sections and isolate using double pole
switches although I still think that a common rail should be possible
but I shall have to ensure that my sub section isolators are on the
same line ( difficult with the number of reverse loops which I
employ).   At the moment our summer is so crap that we still have
resident mice but just to show that it is summer they are sharing with
the odd lizard. So far the only mouse crime has been to steal the dogs
(4 off) special fish jerky treats  -- the whole bag full!    My track
debris usually arises from dead meat flies and spiders.

I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.

Regards

On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
> On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>

Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.

MBQ

On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
wrote:
> On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
>
> > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>
> Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
>
> MBQ

Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
conductors or PCB come to that?

Regards

"Christopher A. Lee" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:45:54 +1200, Greg Procter 
> wrote:
> 
> >Nigel Cliffe wrote:
> >>
> >> Sailor wrote:
> >> > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> >> > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> >> > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> >> > can be routed via diode
> >> > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> >> > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> >> > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> >> > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> >> > rethink he wiring a tad!
> >>
> >> It might be simpler to glue some strong magnets below stock and use reed
> >> relays on the relevant track sections.
> >> Small magnets are really really small, well under 1mm cube being readily
> >> available.
> >> Or a LED based beam-breaking system trackside (or below track with another
> >> part above train)
> >>
> >> Otherwise, I'd head down the DCC route, probably with a Loconet (Digitrax
> >> based) offering the widest range of options; CML in the UK make a number of
> >> interesting boards which talk LocoNet.
> >>
> >> - Nigel
> >>
> >> --
> >> Nigel Cliffe,
> >> Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
> >
> >Reedswitches require modification to make your detection operate.
> >The DCC route still needs blocks for any detection to be relevant.
> 
> RFID?

Is that short for 'triffid'???


> 
> I understand John Burrow of the 7mm yahoo group has been doing some
> experimenting.
> 
> >Greg.P.

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > Chris wrote:
> >
> > > Sailor wrote:
> > > > On Jun 17, 1:55 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> On Jun 16, 9:25 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> >
> > > >>> Sailor wrote:
> > > >>>> Having reached the stage of wishing to indicate TOT to prevent any
> > > >>>> more senior moment accidents I decided to make up one of the Roger
> > > >>>> Amos offerings.   On testing and thinking about it ( as opposed to
> > > >>>> just making it), it became obvious that these little devices will
> > > >>>> function with or without controller power being present and simply
> > > >>>> require to be attached to each rail to provide the circuit through the
> > > >>>> on-track motor.   It does help that when one of our computers died I
> > > >>>> was able to re-use the Power Unit to provide wedges of 12 & 5 volt DC.
> > > >>>> Have any of the fraternity used these Twin Tee units in such a manner?
> > > >>>> If so, have any drawbacks been revealed ?
> > > >>>> Regards
> > > >>> Yes.
> > > >>> Cost. (which can be reduced with modern circuitry)
> > > >>> Detectors come in two broad categories:
> > > >>> - passing a point.
> > > >>> - stock in block detection.
> > > >>> They can also be divided into:
> > > >>> - general detection. (all rolling stock detected)
> > > >>> - specific trigger detection. (eg magnet or trip on rolling stock)
> > > >> And further divided:
> > > >> - Specific item detection, e.g. DCC bi-directional comms (Digitrax
> > > >> transponding or Railcomm), LISSY or RFID
> > > >> - Non-specific (all the rest)
> >
> > > >> You need to think very carefully about what you want from detection
> > > >> and how the information will be used.
> >
> > > >> MBQ
> >
> > > > Well my idea was to indicate the presence of a "train" in a section
> > > > using secondary current flow through the motor. After that the on/off
> > > > can be routed via diode
> > > > isolators to relays/ LED etc for local indication and switching power
> > > > to provide positive isolation  (blocking) between trains.   As I use
> > > > conventional control I am already finding spurious routes (electrical)
> > > > which indicate TOT when there isn't so I shall probably have to
> > > > rethink he wiring a tad!
> >
> > > > Regards
> > > If you want whole train detection you will need to add resisters across
> > > the wheels of your wagons and coaches.
> >
> > > Chris
> >
> > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > detect the extent of a given train.
> > In point of fact, you are detecting occupation of a given block. It is a
> > reasonable assumption that that occupation is by a train, but it could
> > be something else like a mouse dragging a coin, or a Matchbox car blown
> > by a breeze, or (insert your own ...)
> >
> > Greg.P.
> 
> Yes agreed, this is the double Tee referred to by Roger Amos. He
> provides detection under unpowered conditions using a bleed off from
> the actual detector power supply in parallel to the Loco Controller
> circuit.
> 
> I built one yesterday  and it is great on a single length but when
> offered to my maze of wiring finds lots of alternative paths!    I
> have realised that the only solution
> is to double insulate sub sections and isolate using double pole
> switches although I still think that a common rail should be possible
> but I shall have to ensure that my sub section isolators are on the
> same line ( difficult with the number of reverse loops which I
> employ).   At the moment our summer is so crap that we still have
> resident mice but just to show that it is summer they are sharing with
> the odd lizard. So far the only mouse crime has been to steal the dogs
> (4 off) special fish jerky treats  -- the whole bag full!    My track
> debris usually arises from dead meat flies and spiders.
> 
> I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
> 
> Regards


You don't need pickups. Solder a physically small resistor between rim
and axle across the isolating bush. One per coach will do for a start
and add a second later if that isn't 100% reliable.
Best to set up a production line of like wheels and do a good stack at a
time :-)

Alternative paths - I guess this is a problem of trying to add detection
after it's built, rather than building it in first.

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> wrote:
> > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > detect the extent of a given train.
> >
> > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
> >
> > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
> >
> > MBQ
> 
> Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> conductors or PCB come to that?
> 
> Regards


The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.

Greg.P.

On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
>
> > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > wrote:
> > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>
> > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
>
> > > MBQ
>
> > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > conductors or PCB come to that?
>
> > Regards
>
> The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
>
> Greg.P.

I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?

Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
blocks. Which are the surfaces to which one solders?  I assume the
ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
under the SMD.    On an axle therefore it would need insulation
(glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
axle as you describe.       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.

Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.


Regards

On Jun 18, 7:38 am, Sailor  wrote:

>
> I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?

Yes.

>
> Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> blocks. Which are the surfaces to which one solders?

The two ends are metallised.

See also http://www.rr-cirkits.com/wheelsets.html

and google for "resistor wheelsets" and variants thereof. You can
actually buy them ready made.

MBQ

>>
>> The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
>> the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
>> Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
>> plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
>> Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
>>

If you glued the resistor to the axle and use conductive paint to connect 
each end to the wheels you could do away with soldering altogether.

Regards
Jeff

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
> >
> > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
> >
> > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
> >
> > > > MBQ
> >
> > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > conductors or PCB come to that?
> >
> > > Regards
> >
> > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
> >
> > Greg.P.
> 
> I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?


Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.


> 
> Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> blocks. 

Those are they.
Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.


> Which are the surfaces to which one solders? 

The small shiney tabs at each end.

> I assume the
> ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> under the SMD.    

Conductor under the SMD?

> On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> axle as you describe.

That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
plastic/metal dividing line.


>       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.


I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
inside the rail height line.
I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
design is fractionally different and every person has construction
preferences.
I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
British types.

> 
> Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.

We're almost at mid-winter here!

Regards,
Greg.P.

On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
>
> > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>
> > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
>
> > > > > MBQ
>
> > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
>
> > > > Regards
>
> > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
>
> > > Greg.P.
>
> > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
>
> Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
>
>
>
> > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > blocks.
>
> Those are they.
> Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
>
> > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
>
> The small shiney tabs at each end.
>
> > I assume the
> > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > under the SMD.
>
> Conductor under the SMD?
>
> > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > axle as you describe.
>
> That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> plastic/metal dividing line.
>
> >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
>
> I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> inside the rail height line.
> I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> preferences.
> I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> British types.
>
>
>
> > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
>
> We're almost at mid-winter here!
>
> Regards,
> Greg.P.

We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
is that too obvious?

Regards

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
> >
> > > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
> >
> > > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
> >
> > > > > > MBQ
> >
> > > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
> >
> > > > > Regards
> >
> > > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
> >
> > > > Greg.P.
> >
> > > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
> >
> > Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > > blocks.
> >
> > Those are they.
> > Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
> >
> > > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
> >
> > The small shiney tabs at each end.
> >
> > > I assume the
> > > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > > under the SMD.
> >
> > Conductor under the SMD?
> >
> > > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > > axle as you describe.
> >
> > That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> > the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> > A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> > plastic/metal dividing line.
> >
> > >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
> >
> > I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> > inside the rail height line.
> > I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> > design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> > preferences.
> > I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> > British types.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
> >
> > We're almost at mid-winter here!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg.P.
> 
> We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
> rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
> warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
> charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
> is that too obvious?
> 
> Regards

Mid winter - (max) temperatures down in the 20-15'C range and we'll
probably hit a low of 12 degrees tonight!
I might have to find another blanket for the bed - of course we'll be
stoic and not whine about it at all.

The thin ozone layer here has resulted in considerable incidence of skin
cancer. Even the sheep often get cancer on their ears in the last decade
or so.
It's difficult to laugh at such things when it becomes personal.

On Jun 18, 1:20 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
>
> > On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote> > > > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> > > > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>
> > > > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
>
> > > > > > > MBQ
>
> > > > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
>
> > > > > > Regards
>
> > > > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad> > > > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
>
> > > > > Greg.P.
>
> > > > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
>
> > > Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
>
> > > > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > > > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > > > blocks.
>
> > > Those are they.
> > > Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
>
> > > > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
>
> > > The small shiney tabs at each end.
>
> > > > I assume the
> > > > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > > > under the SMD.
>
> > > Conductor under the SMD?
>
> > > > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > > > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > > > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > > > axle as you describe.
>
> > > That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> > > the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> > > A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> > > plastic/metal dividing line.
>
> > > >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > > > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
>
> > > I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> > > inside the rail height line.
> > > I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> > > design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> > > preferences.
> > > I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> > > British types.
>
> > > > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
>
> > > We're almost at mid-winter here!
>
> > > Regards,
> > > Greg.P.
>
> > We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
> > rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
> > warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
> > charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
> > is that too obvious?
>
> > Regards
>
> Mid winter - (max) temperatures down in the 20-15'C range and we'll
> probably hit a low of 12 degrees tonight!
> I might have to find another blanket for the bed - of course we'll be
> stoic and not whine about it at all.
>
> The thin ozone layer here has resulted in considerable incidence of skin
> cancer. Even the sheep often get cancer on their ears in the last decade
> or so.
> It's difficult to laugh at such things when it becomes personal.

 Well I must confess that the habit of mocking stems from having so
much of my life in a submarine  --  if you can't laugh at it then get
out!

I have had another look at these mini SMD's and concluded that the
eyes of anno domini are not compatible!   In any case, having made one
detector work as designed am somewhat peed off that the next two are
giving problems. Hunched up in my little technical corner it is taking
all of my world famous tenacity and determination not to cry!

Regards

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 18, 1:20 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
> >
> > > > > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
> >
> > > > > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
> >
> > > > > > > > MBQ
> >
> > > > > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
> >
> > > > > > > Regards
> >
> > > > > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > > > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > > > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > > > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > > > > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
> >
> > > > > > Greg.P.
> >
> > > > > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
> >
> > > > Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
> >
> > > > > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > > > > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > > > > blocks.
> >
> > > > Those are they.
> > > > Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
> >
> > > > > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
> >
> > > > The small shiney tabs at each end.
> >
> > > > > I assume the
> > > > > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > > > > under the SMD.
> >
> > > > Conductor under the SMD?
> >
> > > > > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > > > > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > > > > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > > > > axle as you describe.
> >
> > > > That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> > > > the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> > > > A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> > > > plastic/metal dividing line.
> >
> > > > >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > > > > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
> >
> > > > I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> > > > inside the rail height line.
> > > > I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> > > > design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> > > > preferences.
> > > > I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> > > > British types.
> >
> > > > > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
> >
> > > > We're almost at mid-winter here!
> >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Greg.P.
> >
> > > We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
> > > rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
> > > warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
> > > charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
> > > is that too obvious?
> >
> > > Regards
> >
> > Mid winter - (max) temperatures down in the 20-15'C range and we'll
> > probably hit a low of 12 degrees tonight!
> > I might have to find another blanket for the bed - of course we'll be
> > stoic and not whine about it at all.
> >
> > The thin ozone layer here has resulted in considerable incidence of skin
> > cancer. Even the sheep often get cancer on their ears in the last decade
> > or so.
> > It's difficult to laugh at such things when it becomes personal.
> 
>  Well I must confess that the habit of mocking stems from having so
> much of my life in a submarine  --  if you can't laugh at it then get
> out!

Yeah, I guess you'd be short of more than just ozone in a submarine.
Industrial nations causing us to get excessive amounts of skin cancer is
a little pissing off though.

> 
> I have had another look at these mini SMD's and concluded that the
> eyes of anno domini are not compatible! 


A system of magnification and lighting is vital.
I'm only 58 and my eyesight is good, but without the visual aids I can't
work with SMDs for more than a few minutes.


>  In any case, having made one
> detector work as designed am somewhat peed off that the next two are
> giving problems. Hunched up in my little technical corner it is taking
> all of my world famous tenacity and determination not to cry!

Been there, done that. Don't you just hate that!!!
I'm happy with my current detector circuits, but my light detectors are
umm, temperamental. 99% reliable operation isn't as good as it sounds.

Regards,
Greg.P.

On Jun 19, 11:15 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
>
> > On Jun 18, 1:20 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> > > > > > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>
> > > > > > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
>
> > > > > > > > > MBQ
>
> > > > > > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > > > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > > > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
>
> > > > > > > > Regards
>
> > > > > > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > > > > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > > > > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > > > > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > > > > > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
>
> > > > > > > Greg.P.
>
> > > > > > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
>
> > > > > Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
>
> > > > > > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > > > > > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > > > > > blocks.
>
> > > > > Those are they.
> > > > > Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
>
> > > > > > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
>
> > > > > The small shiney tabs at each end.
>
> > > > > > I assume the
> > > > > > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > > > > > under the SMD.
>
> > > > > Conductor under the SMD?
>
> > > > > > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > > > > > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > > > > > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > > > > > axle as you describe.
>
> > > > > That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> > > > > the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> > > > > A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> > > > > plastic/metal dividing line.
>
> > > > > >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > > > > > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
>
> > > > > I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> > > > > inside the rail height line.
> > > > > I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> > > > > design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> > > > > preferences.
> > > > > I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> > > > > British types.
>
> > > > > > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
>
> > > > > We're almost at mid-winter here!
>
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Greg.P.
>
> > > > We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
> > > > rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
> > > > warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
> > > > charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
> > > > is that too obvious?
>
> > > > Regards
>
> > > Mid winter - (max) temperatures down in the 20-15'C range and we'll
> > > probably hit a low of 12 degrees tonight!
> > > I might have to find another blanket for the bed - of course we'll be
> > > stoic and not whine about it at all.
>
> > > The thin ozone layer here has resulted in considerable incidence of skin
> > > cancer. Even the sheep often get cancer on their ears in the last decade
> > > or so.
> > > It's difficult to laugh at such things when it becomes personal.
>
> >  Well I must confess that the habit of mocking stems from having so
> > much of my life in a submarine  --  if you can't laugh at it then get
> > out!
>
> Yeah, I guess you'd be short of more than just ozone in a submarine.
> Industrial nations causing us to get excessive amounts of skin cancer is
> a little pissing off though.
>
>
>
> > I have had another look at these mini SMD's and concluded that the
> > eyes of anno domini are not compatible!
>
> A system of magnification and lighting is vital.
> I'm only 58 and my eyesight is good, but without the visual aids I can't
> work with SMDs for more than a few minutes.
>
> >  In any case, having made one
> > detector work as designed am somewhat peed off that the next two are
> > giving problems. Hunched up in my little technical corner it is taking
> > all of my world famous tenacity and determination not to cry!
>
> Been there, done that. Don't you just hate that!!!
> I'm happy with my current detector circuits, but my light detectors are
> umm, temperamental. 99% reliable operation isn't as good as it sounds.
>
> Regards,
> Greg.P.

Well, when I was at sea I could see the dust on a gnats nuts at 10
miles but suddenly one  morning I could not read the paper!     I have
found my first error, to wit, mounting one transistor on each board
the wrong way around ( the drawback of mixes of pnp & npn) All I have
to do now is find the damage done by my error.
We call this a hobby?

Regards

Sailor wrote:
> 
> On Jun 19, 11:15 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 18, 1:20 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > Sailor wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > > > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > MBQ
> >
> > > > > > > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > > > > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > > > > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
> >
> > > > > > > > > Regards
> >
> > > > > > > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > > > > > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > > > > > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > > > > > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > > > > > > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
> >
> > > > > > > > Greg.P.
> >
> > > > > > > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
> >
> > > > > > Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
> >
> > > > > > > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > > > > > > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > > > > > > blocks.
> >
> > > > > > Those are they.
> > > > > > Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
> >
> > > > > > > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
> >
> > > > > > The small shiney tabs at each end.
> >
> > > > > > > I assume the
> > > > > > > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > > > > > > under the SMD.
> >
> > > > > > Conductor under the SMD?
> >
> > > > > > > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > > > > > > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > > > > > > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > > > > > > axle as you describe.
> >
> > > > > > That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> > > > > > the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> > > > > > A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> > > > > > plastic/metal dividing line.
> >
> > > > > > >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > > > > > > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
> >
> > > > > > I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> > > > > > inside the rail height line.
> > > > > > I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> > > > > > design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> > > > > > preferences.
> > > > > > I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> > > > > > British types.
> >
> > > > > > > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
> >
> > > > > > We're almost at mid-winter here!
> >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Greg.P.
> >
> > > > > We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
> > > > > rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
> > > > > warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
> > > > > charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
> > > > > is that too obvious?
> >
> > > > > Regards
> >
> > > > Mid winter - (max) temperatures down in the 20-15'C range and we'll
> > > > probably hit a low of 12 degrees tonight!
> > > > I might have to find another blanket for the bed - of course we'll be
> > > > stoic and not whine about it at all.
> >
> > > > The thin ozone layer here has resulted in considerable incidence of skin
> > > > cancer. Even the sheep often get cancer on their ears in the last decade
> > > > or so.
> > > > It's difficult to laugh at such things when it becomes personal.
> >
> > >  Well I must confess that the habit of mocking stems from having so
> > > much of my life in a submarine  --  if you can't laugh at it then get
> > > out!
> >
> > Yeah, I guess you'd be short of more than just ozone in a submarine.
> > Industrial nations causing us to get excessive amounts of skin cancer is
> > a little pissing off though.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have had another look at these mini SMD's and concluded that the
> > > eyes of anno domini are not compatible!
> >
> > A system of magnification and lighting is vital.
> > I'm only 58 and my eyesight is good, but without the visual aids I can't
> > work with SMDs for more than a few minutes.
> >
> > >  In any case, having made one
> > > detector work as designed am somewhat peed off that the next two are
> > > giving problems. Hunched up in my little technical corner it is taking
> > > all of my world famous tenacity and determination not to cry!
> >
> > Been there, done that. Don't you just hate that!!!
> > I'm happy with my current detector circuits, but my light detectors are
> > umm, temperamental. 99% reliable operation isn't as good as it sounds.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg.P.
> 
> Well, when I was at sea I could see the dust on a gnats nuts at 10
> miles but suddenly one  morning I could not read the paper! 

Either the RN has bigger submarines than I thought or you weren't
studying gnats nuts indoors at sea!


>    I have
> found my first error, to wit, mounting one transistor on each board
> the wrong way around ( the drawback of mixes of pnp & npn) All I have
> to do now is find the damage done by my error.

That's an excellent way to learn about transistor types and orientation!

> We call this a hobby?

Aww, you wouldn't want to put transistors in backwards as a job, would
you?
;-)

On Jun 20, 12:22 am, Greg Procter  wrote:
> Sailor wrote:
>
> > On Jun 19, 11:15 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 18, 1:20 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 18, 12:41 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 10:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Sailor wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 9:29 pm, "manatba...@hotmail.com" 
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, Sailor  wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 8:30 pm, Greg Procter  wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you just add resistors to the last vehicle (assuming the first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > vehicle to be electrically powered/reactive) you have the ability to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > detect the extent of a given train.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am reluctant to load my carriage wheels  with pickups as the two
> > > > > > > > > > > > which I run with lighting really do have a lot of drag.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Use surface mount resistors fixed to the axle and connected to the
> > > > > > > > > > > wheels with conductive paint abd there is no need for extra pickups.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > MBQ
>
> > > > > > > > > > Now that sounds sensible. I do have a load of these little widgers but
> > > > > > > > > > quite honestly have never used them. How do they attach to the
> > > > > > > > > > conductors or PCB come to that?
>
> > > > > > > > > > Regards
>
> > > > > > > > > The "problem" is soldering between the relatively tiny end contacts and
> > > > > > > > > the relatively large mass of axle and tyre/wheel.
> > > > > > > > > Solder the SMD at 45 degrees to the axle with the other pad against the
> > > > > > > > > plastic bush and then solder a single strand from tyre to SMD pad.
> > > > > > > > > Of course, tinning the axle and wheel surfaces first is a must.
>
> > > > > > > > > Greg.P.
>
> > > > > > > > I assume SMD is = surface mounted device?
>
> > > > > > > Sorry, yes, SMD is surface mounted device.
>
> > > > > > > > Those which I have on a card are said to be resistors and there are
> > > > > > > > also capacitors which look the same. That is to say rectangular
> > > > > > > > blocks.
>
> > > > > > > Those are they.
> > > > > > > Normally supplied on tapes so that machines can handle their placement.
>
> > > > > > > > Which are the surfaces to which one solders?
>
> > > > > > > The small shiney tabs at each end.
>
> > > > > > > > I assume the
> > > > > > > > ends would solder onto strip conductors and then break the conductor
> > > > > > > > under the SMD.
>
> > > > > > > Conductor under the SMD?
>
> > > > > > > > On an axle therefore it would need insulation
> > > > > > > > (glue?) from the axle to enable conducting paint to be applied to one
> > > > > > > > end already lying on a wheel hub, the other end could then use the
> > > > > > > > axle as you describe.
>
> > > > > > > That's the point of angling them at 45 degrees so that one end touches
> > > > > > > the axle while the other leans on the insulating bush.
> > > > > > > A possibility is to drill the smallest possible hole on the
> > > > > > > plastic/metal dividing line.
>
> > > > > > > >       I forsee tyre fitted wire strands getting
> > > > > > > > beaten up in points etc so the paint idea is good.
>
> > > > > > > I solder the strand right by the insulation so solder and strand are
> > > > > > > inside the rail height line.
> > > > > > > I haven't had much luck with conducting paint. Obviously each wheel
> > > > > > > design is fractionally different and every person has construction
> > > > > > > preferences.
> > > > > > > I'm into old-time European models so my wheels will be different to
> > > > > > > British types.
>
> > > > > > > > Blue sky and sun have been seen creeping up on us.
>
> > > > > > > We're almost at mid-winter here!
>
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Greg.P.
>
> > > > > > We are suffering  26°C as if it were still May and rain (albeit warm
> > > > > > rain) continues to fall more often than not  --  it's all that global
> > > > > > warming stuff and holes in the ozone ( why shouldn't negatively
> > > > > > charged  atoms be sucked into the positively charged south pole?  or
> > > > > > is that too obvious?
>
> > > > > > Regards
>
> > > > > Mid winter - (max) temperatures down in the 20-15'C range and we'll
> > > > > probably hit a low of 12 degrees tonight!
> > > > > I might have to find another blanket for the bed - of course we'll be
> > > > > stoic and not whine about it at all.
>
> > > > > The thin ozone layer here has resulted in considerable incidence of skin
> > > > > cancer. Even the sheep often get cancer on their ears in the last decade
> > > > > or so.
> > > > > It's difficult to laugh at such things when it becomes personal.
>
> > > >  Well I must confess that the habit of mocking stems from having so
> > > > much of my life in a submarine  --  if you can't laugh at it then get
> > > > out!
>
> > > Yeah, I guess you'd be short of more than just ozone in a submarine.
> > > Industrial nations causing us to get excessive amounts of skin cancer is
> > > a little pissing off though.
>
> > > > I have had another look at these mini SMD's and concluded that the
> > > > eyes of anno domini are not compatible!
>
> > > A system of magnification and lighting is vital.
> > > I'm only 58 and my eyesight is good, but without the visual aids I can't
> > > work with SMDs for more than a few minutes.
>
> > > >  In any case, having made one
> > > > detector work as designed am somewhat peed off that the next two are
> > > > giving problems. Hunched up in my little technical corner it is taking
> > > > all of my world famous tenacity and determination not to cry!
>
> > > Been there, done that. Don't you just hate that!!!
> > > I'm happy with my current detector circuits, but my light detectors are
> > > umm, temperamental. 99% reliable operation isn't as good as it sounds> > > Regards,
> > > Greg.P.
>
> > Well, when I was at sea I could see the dust on a gnats nuts at 10
> > miles but suddenly one  morning I could not read the paper!
>
> Either the RN has bigger submarines than I thought or you weren't
> studying gnats nuts indoors at sea!
>
> >    I have
> > found my first error, to wit, mounting one transistor on each board
> > the wrong way around ( the drawback of mixes of pnp & npn) All I have
> > to do now is find the damage done by my error.
>
> That's an excellent way to learn about transistor types and orientation!
>
> > We call this a hobby?
>
> Aww, you wouldn't want to put transistors in backwards as a job, would
> you?
> ;-)

I was one of the few Engineers who actually used the periscopes for
real and in any case all engineers kept bridge watches on the roof. I
was the proud owner of a digital computer in 1963 and was then
launched into the Polaris boats as the Chief Tech. They were so
cutting edge that I did not meet the same technology in civilian life
for almost 20 years.   To move from thermionic valves to IC's is a
major step function.   Having subsequently to qualify  Nuclear and
then Mechanical I found myself having to fight to stay in the
electronics game as general management demanded my time and
concentration. My railway hobby then was 5" live steam but the fun
evaporated with the rules ( insurance etc) and the po faced attitude
of  many of the well heeled adherents ( talk about rivet counting!) .
About the only thing still working corporally is my brain  and a good
days entertainment can be finding a few mini bits on the deck amidst
the other debris ( it is usually the irreplaceable widger etc which is
playing silly buggers). (And -- yes I have put things in backwards
before --  and got paid for it, but then that was part of my charm).

Regards

In message 
          Sailor  wrote:

<snip>

> I was one of the few Engineers who actually used the periscopes for
> real and in any case all engineers kept bridge watches on the roof. I
> was the proud owner of a digital computer in 1963 and was then
> launched into the Polaris boats as the Chief Tech. They were so
> cutting edge that I did not meet the same technology in civilian life
> for almost 20 years.   To move from thermionic valves to IC's is a
> major step function.   Having subsequently to qualify  Nuclear and
> then Mechanical I found myself having to fight to stay in the
> electronics game as general management demanded my time and
> concentration. My railway hobby then was 5" live steam but the fun
> evaporated with the rules ( insurance etc) and the po faced attitude
> of  many of the well heeled adherents ( talk about rivet counting!) .
> About the only thing still working corporally is my brain  and a good
> days entertainment can be finding a few mini bits on the deck amidst
> the other debris ( it is usually the irreplaceable widger etc which is
> playing silly buggers). (And -- yes I have put things in backwards
> before --  and got paid for it, but then that was part of my charm).
> 
> Regards

You probably worked for my old man then! (WEO). Small world....

Cheers
Richard

-- 
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk       sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
              I have become... comfortably numb

On Jun 20, 11:55 am, beamendsltd  wrote:
> In message 
>           Sailor  wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > I was one of the few Engineers who actually used the periscopes for
> > real and in any case all engineers kept bridge watches on the roof. I
> > was the proud owner of a digital computer in 1963 and was then
> > launched into the Polaris boats as the Chief Tech. They were so
> > cutting edge that I did not meet the same technology in civilian life
> > for almost 20 years.   To move from thermionic valves to IC's is a
> > major step function.   Having subsequently to qualify  Nuclear and
> > then Mechanical I found myself having to fight to stay in the
> > electronics game as general management demanded my time and
> > concentration. My railway hobby then was 5" live steam but the fun
> > evaporated with the rules ( insurance etc) and the po faced attitude
> > of  many of the well heeled adherents ( talk about rivet counting!) .
> > About the only thing still working corporally is my brain  and a good
> > days entertainment can be finding a few mini bits on the deck amidst
> > the other debris ( it is usually the irreplaceable widger etc which is
> > playing silly buggers). (And -- yes I have put things in backwards
> > before --  and got paid for it, but then that was part of my charm).
>
> > Regards
>
> You probably worked for my old man then! (WEO). Small world....
>
> Cheers
> Richard
>
> --www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk      sa...@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
>               I have become... comfortably numb

I was a CREA in Resolution (1966 -70) & Cachalot (1963-5)then WEO in
Courageous (72 - 75) and then Defiance (ends 1976).

Regards

In message 
          Sailor  wrote:

> On Jun 20, 11:55 am, beamendsltd  wrote:
> > In message 
> >           Sailor  wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> >
> > > I was one of the few Engineers who actually used the periscopes for
> > > real and in any case all engineers kept bridge watches on the roof. I
> > > was the proud owner of a digital computer in 1963 and was then
> > > launched into the Polaris boats as the Chief Tech. They were so
> > > cutting edge that I did not meet the same technology in civilian life
> > > for almost 20 years.   To move from thermionic valves to IC's is a
> > > major step function.   Having subsequently to qualify  Nuclear and
> > > then Mechanical I found myself having to fight to stay in the
> > > electronics game as general management demanded my time and
> > > concentration. My railway hobby then was 5" live steam but the fun
> > > evaporated with the rules ( insurance etc) and the po faced attitude
> > > of  many of the well heeled adherents ( talk about rivet counting!) .
> > > About the only thing still working corporally is my brain  and a good
> > > days entertainment can be finding a few mini bits on the deck amidst
> > > the other debris ( it is usually the irreplaceable widger etc which is
> > > playing silly buggers). (And -- yes I have put things in backwards
> > > before --  and got paid for it, but then that was part of my charm).
> >
> > > Regards
> >
> > You probably worked for my old man then! (WEO). Small world....
> >
> > Cheers
> > Richard
> >
> > --www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk      sa...@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
> >               I have become... comfortably numb
> 
> I was a CREA in Resolution (1966 -70) & Cachalot (1963-5)then WEO in
> Courageous (72 - 75) and then Defiance (ends 1976).
> 
> Regards

Right, the old man was Repulse, from standby to about 1976 ish.

Cheers
Richard

-- 
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk       sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
              I have become... comfortably numb

On Jun 20, 12:57 pm, beamendsltd  wrote:
> In message 
>           Sailor  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 11:55 am, beamendsltd  wrote:
> > > In message 
> > >           Sailor  wrote:
>
> > > <snip>
>
> > > > I was one of the few Engineers who actually used the periscopes for
> > > > real and in any case all engineers kept bridge watches on the roof. I
> > > > was the proud owner of a digital computer in 1963 and was then
> > > > launched into the Polaris boats as the Chief Tech. They were so
> > > > cutting edge that I did not meet the same technology in civilian life
> > > > for almost 20 years.   To move from thermionic valves to IC's is a
> > > > major step function.   Having subsequently to qualify  Nuclear and
> > > > then Mechanical I found myself having to fight to stay in the
> > > > electronics game as general management demanded my time and
> > > > concentration. My railway hobby then was 5" live steam but the fun
> > > > evaporated with the rules ( insurance etc) and the po faced attitude
> > > > of  many of the well heeled adherents ( talk about rivet counting!) .
> > > > About the only thing still working corporally is my brain  and a good
> > > > days entertainment can be finding a few mini bits on the deck amidst
> > > > the other debris ( it is usually the irreplaceable widger etc which is
> > > > playing silly buggers). (And -- yes I have put things in backwards
> > > > before --  and got paid for it, but then that was part of my charm).
>
> > > > Regards
>
> > > You probably worked for my old man then! (WEO). Small world....
>
> > > Cheers
> > > Richard
>
> > > --www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk     sa...@beam