Hi folks,

I want to buy a bottle of TetraBoost lead replacement additive. 
Apparently this stuff is real tetra-ethyl lead:

http://tetraboost.com/

The problem is, they only sell it in boxes of 8 x 945 ml bottles. As I'm 
only going to be using it for my stationary engine and lawnmower, it 
would be a silly amount to buy.

Does anyone know of a source which sells single bottles? Or would anyone 
like to split a box four or eight ways? I would be willing to order the 
box and divide it up at no profit, but I suspect this stuff may be 
forbidden to post.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks,

Chris

On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:26:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
 wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>I want to buy a bottle of TetraBoost lead replacement additive. 

Why??

>Apparently this stuff is real tetra-ethyl lead:

If it was, you'd have the Environment Agency after you pretty damm quick!

Smoke and mirrors....

Peter
 
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

Peter A Forbes wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:26:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi folks,
>>
>>I want to buy a bottle of TetraBoost lead replacement additive. 
> 
> 
> Why??

Simply because the real stuff is likely to give good protection and 
performance. I don't know what's in the other stuff. It could be Ribena 
for all I know!

>>Apparently this stuff is real tetra-ethyl lead:
> 
> 
> If it was, you'd have the Environment Agency after you pretty damm quick!

It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.

Chris

Christopher,

I don't see the point in buying it as Stationary Engines we play with never 
ran on leaded fuel and assuming your mower is not that old it would also be 
capable of running on Lead free petrol and it certainly wont cut the grass 
any quicker.

Martin P
"Christopher Tidy"  wrote in message 
news:4895FC60.5090205@cantabgold.net...
> Peter A Forbes wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:26:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi folks,
>>>
>>>I want to buy a bottle of TetraBoost lead replacement additive.
>>
>>
>> Why??
>
> Simply because the real stuff is likely to give good protection and 
> performance. I don't know what's in the other stuff. It could be Ribena 
> for all I know!
>
>>>Apparently this stuff is real tetra-ethyl lead:
>>
>>
>> If it was, you'd have the Environment Agency after you pretty damm quick!
>
> It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.
>
> Chris
>

On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:43:44 +0000, Christopher Tidy
 wrote:

>It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.
>
>Chris

I did, Chris, and I'm very surprised that it is allowed, but having also seen
the claimed no of octane points you can gain, it must be very weak indeed.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

campingstoveman wrote:
> Christopher,
> 
> I don't see the point in buying it as Stationary Engines we play with never 
> ran on leaded fuel and assuming your mower is not that old it would also be 
> capable of running on Lead free petrol and it certainly wont cut the grass 
> any quicker.

I thought there was a time when all petrol had lead added to it, though 
I don't know for sure. It would be before my time. My stationary engines 
are wartime designs and the mower engine was designed around 1920.

It isn't the octane rating I'm concerned about. It's the possibility of 
valve seat erosion. However, I found this document online which suggests 
that leaded petrol increases ring and bore wear:

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Lead-History.htm

Anyone know if it's true?

If so, are there any better additives which protect the valve seats 
without increasing bore wear?

Many thanks,

Chris

Peter A Forbes wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:43:44 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.
>>
>>Chris
> 
> 
> I did, Chris, and I'm very surprised that it is allowed, but having also seen
> the claimed no of octane points you can gain, it must be very weak indeed.

Apparently it enables you to make leaded petrol to BS 4040.

Chris

Christopher Tidy wrote:
> campingstoveman wrote:
> 
>> Christopher,
>>
>> I don't see the point in buying it as Stationary Engines we play with 
>> never ran on leaded fuel and assuming your mower is not that old it 
>> would also be capable of running on Lead free petrol and it certainly 
>> wont cut the grass any quicker.
> 
> 
> I thought there was a time when all petrol had lead added to it, though 
> I don't know for sure. It would be before my time. My stationary engines 
> are wartime designs and the mower engine was designed around 1920.
> 
> It isn't the octane rating I'm concerned about. It's the possibility of 
> valve seat erosion. However, I found this document online which suggests 
> that leaded petrol increases ring and bore wear:
> 
> http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Lead-History.htm

Found a study with much more detail. Will read it tomorrow. Need sleep now:
http://yosemite.epa.gov/ee/epa/eerm.nsf/vwRepNumLookup/EE-0034?OpenDocument

Chris

"Christopher Tidy"  wrote in message 
news:48964965.3090107@cantabgold.net...
> Peter A Forbes wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:43:44 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.
>>>
>>>Chris
>>
>>
>> I did, Chris, and I'm very surprised that it is allowed, but having also 
>> seen
>> the claimed no of octane points you can gain, it must be very weak 
>> indeed.
>
> Apparently it enables you to make leaded petrol to BS 4040.
>
> Chris
>

You can buy leaded petrol, 119 octane if you wish!

http://www.aaoil.co.uk/racing-Racing-fuels-Leaded

But as has previously been pointed out your lawnmower and stationary engine 
do not need it. Both are likely to be so understressed that valve seat 
recession will be of no concern.

Julian.

>
> I thought there was a time when all petrol had lead added to it, though
> I don't know for sure. It would be before my time. My stationary engines
> are wartime designs and the mower engine was designed around 1920.
>
> It isn't the octane rating I'm concerned about. It's the possibility of
> valve seat erosion. However, I found this document online which suggests
> that leaded petrol increases ring and bore wear:
>
> http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Lead-History.htm
>
> Anyone know if it's true?
>
> If so, are there any better additives which protect the valve seats
> without increasing bore wear?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Chris

The advantages of TetraEthyle Lead in petrol were discovered in in US
in1922 so your 1920's lawnmower was designed for lead free fuel.
As a rough rule of thumb, car's built pre WWII were designed for
unleaded fuel. The problem only arises with engines designed and built
in the 50's to 70's. As for our stationary engines, even those from
that era tend to be low compression, low power units that we only run
for a few hours a year. At that, even valve seat regression will take
decades to appear if it ever does.

John

On 4 Aug, 01:10, Christopher Tidy  wrote:

> I thought there was a time when all petrol had lead added to it,

Yes, long after the interesting small engines!

On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 03:04:45 -0700 (PDT), John 
wrote:

>>
>> I thought there was a time when all petrol had lead added to it, though
>> I don't know for sure. It would be before my time. My stationary engines
>> are wartime designs and the mower engine was designed around 1920.
>>
>> It isn't the octane rating I'm concerned about. It's the possibility of
>> valve seat erosion. However, I found this document online which suggests
>> that leaded petrol increases ring and bore wear:
>>
>> http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Lead-History.htm
>>
>> Anyone know if it's true?
>>
>> If so, are there any better additives which protect the valve seats
>> without increasing bore wear?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>
>The advantages of TetraEthyle Lead in petrol were discovered in in US
>in1922 so your 1920's lawnmower was designed for lead free fuel.
>As a rough rule of thumb, car's built pre WWII were designed for
>unleaded fuel. The problem only arises with engines designed and built
>in the 50's to 70's. As for our stationary engines, even those from
>that era tend to be low compression, low power units that we only run
>for a few hours a year. At that, even valve seat regression will take
>decades to appear if it ever does.
>
>John

Look up Ethyl Corporation, S D Heron and Sir Harry Ricardo.

Sam Heron had a couple of good technical books, one which he wrote himself, the
other he co-authored with a guy called Robert Schlaifer and is one of the most
interesting books on aircraft piston engine development that I have read:

Development of Aircraft Engines & Fuels
Schlaifer & Heron
Harvard University 1950

The book is in two parts, engines followed by fuels.

Currently, copies are going at $US 485.00 to $US 595.00 on www.abebooks.com:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=on&ds=30&kn=schlaifer+and+heron&sortby=2&sts=t&x=90&y=11

History of the Aircraft Piston Engine
S D Heron
Ethyl Corporation

Similarly elevated prices I'm afraid.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=S+D+Heron&bi=0&bx=on&ds=30&kn=History&sortby=2&sts=t&x=33&y=5

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

Wont bother with them then :-))

Martin P
"Peter A Forbes"  wrote in message 
news:ivje9450e4girvrk9ed3thdebm6ql898ih@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 03:04:45 -0700 (PDT), John 
> 
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I thought there was a time when all petrol had lead added to it, though
>>> I don't know for sure. It would be before my time. My stationary engines
>>> are wartime designs and the mower engine was designed around 1920.
>>>
>>> It isn't the octane rating I'm concerned about. It's the possibility of
>>> valve seat erosion. However, I found this document online which suggests
>>> that leaded petrol increases ring and bore wear:
>>>
>>> http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Lead-History.htm
>>>
>>> Anyone know if it's true?
>>>
>>> If so, are there any better additives which protect the valve seats
>>> without increasing bore wear?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>>The advantages of TetraEthyle Lead in petrol were discovered in in US
>>in1922 so your 1920's lawnmower was designed for lead free fuel.
>>As a rough rule of thumb, car's built pre WWII were designed for
>>unleaded fuel. The problem only arises with engines designed and built
>>in the 50's to 70's. As for our stationary engines, even those from
>>that era tend to be low compression, low power units that we only run
>>for a few hours a year. At that, even valve seat regression will take
>>decades to appear if it ever does.
>>
>>John
>
> Look up Ethyl Corporation, S D Heron and Sir Harry Ricardo.
>
> Sam Heron had a couple of good technical books, one which he wrote 
> himself, the
> other he co-authored with a guy called Robert Schlaifer and is one of the 
> most
> interesting books on aircraft piston engine development that I have read:
>
> Development of Aircraft Engines & Fuels
> Schlaifer & Heron
> Harvard University 1950
>
> The book is in two parts, engines followed by fuels.
>
> Currently, copies are going at $US 485.00 to $US 595.00 on 
> www.abebooks.com:
>
> http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=on&ds=30&kn=schlaifer+and+heron&sortby=2&sts=t&x=90&y=11
>
> History of the Aircraft Piston Engine
> S D Heron
> Ethyl Corporation
>
> Similarly elevated prices I'm afraid.
>
> http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=S+D+Heron&bi=0&bx=on&ds=30&kn=History&sortby=2&sts=t&x=33&y=5
>
> Peter
> --
> Peter & Rita Forbes
> Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
> http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
> http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
> http://www.oldengine.co.uk

On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 22:09:20 +0100, "campingstoveman"
 wrote:

>Wont bother with them then :-))
>
>Martin P

You can borrow mine if you want to have a read.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

Coming late to the conversation, I'd mildly observe that the intent was to 
raise the pre-ignition point in aviation fuels & that reduced seat erosion 
was only an observed by product. It was only ever important in highly tuned 
engines AND automotive units designed to take advantage of the lubricating 
properties of TEL.

I understand that the "petrol" we run engines on today only bears a passing 
chemical resemblance to the 80-90 octane stuff in use in pre-war years.

I recommend the book " I Kept no Diary" by F.R. Banks. He was a fuel chemist 
& worked on the "R" engined racing sea planes. I got mine a year or two ago 
from a Dutch specialist interest dealer for a tad over a tenner.

regards,

Kim Siddorn

"Kim Siddorn"  wrote in message 
news:6frhvnFcvdhfU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> I understand that the "petrol" we run engines on today only bears a 
> passing chemical resemblance to the 80-90 octane stuff in use in pre-war 
> years.

The petrol we run on today only bears a passing resemblance to the stuff we 
used 10 years ago!

I find modern stuff horrid, If I don't drain the mowers etc dry before 
winter then you have a devil of a job to get 'em going again. I think it's 
the shelf life or something, about two months at best :-(

Julian.

Julian wrote:
> "Christopher Tidy"  wrote in message 
> news:48964965.3090107@cantabgold.net...
> 
>>Peter A Forbes wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:43:44 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.
>>>>
>>>>Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>I did, Chris, and I'm very surprised that it is allowed, but having also 
>>>seen
>>>the claimed no of octane points you can gain, it must be very weak 
>>>indeed.
>>
>>Apparently it enables you to make leaded petrol to BS 4040.
>>
>>Chris
>>
> 
> 
> You can buy leaded petrol, 119 octane if you wish!
> 
> http://www.aaoil.co.uk/racing-Racing-fuels-Leaded
> 
> But as has previously been pointed out your lawnmower and stationary engine 
> do not need it. Both are likely to be so understressed that valve seat 
> recession will be of no concern.

I think it still makes sense to protect the valve seats as best as I 
can. The mower is going to see a lot more use than the stationary 
engine. I will probably be using it for a few hours a week.

Best wishes,

Chris

I only use my bikes occasionally now & it might be months between starts. I 
never have any trouble starting either the Honda XBR500 on the pedal 
commencer or the BMW K1100LT on the button regardless of the age of the 
go-juice in the tank. It is of course possible that these fairly 
sophisticated modern(ish) engines have higher compression ratios than the 
mower etc & a bang is more likely with a higher voltage of spark conjured up 
by electronic ignition.

Just a thought ..........

regards,

Kim Siddorn

"Christopher Tidy"  wrote in message 
news:4898D2FB.2090809@cantabgold.net...
> Julian wrote:
>> "Christopher Tidy"  wrote in message 
>> news:48964965.3090107@cantabgold.net...
>>
>>>Peter A Forbes wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 18:43:44 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It is real tetra-ethyl lead. Check out the link I posted.
>>>>>
>>>>>Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I did, Chris, and I'm very surprised that it is allowed, but having also 
>>>>seen
>>>>the claimed no of octane points you can gain, it must be very weak 
>>>>indeed.
>>>
>>>Apparently it enables you to make leaded petrol to BS 4040.
>>>
>>>Chris
>>>
>>
>>
>> You can buy leaded petrol, 119 octane if you wish!
>>
>> http://www.aaoil.co.uk/racing-Racing-fuels-Leaded
>>
>> But as has previously been pointed out your lawnmower and stationary 
>> engine do not need it. Both are likely to be so understressed that valve 
>> seat recession will be of no concern.
>
> I think it still makes sense to protect the valve seats as best as I can. 
> The mower is going to see a lot more use than the stationary engine. I 
> will probably be using it for a few hours a week.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Chris
>

On 5 Aug, 18:46, "Kim Siddorn"  wrote:

> I recommend the book " I Kept no Diary" by F.R. Banks. He was a fuel chemist
> & worked on the "R" engined racing sea planes. I got mine a year or two ago
> from a Dutch specialist interest dealer for a tad over a tenner.

Cheap!  That book's damned rare.

Also worth reading is the copy of the 1960's Aeronautical Journal
that's on my desk waiting to be scanned and added to the wikipedia
article on the High Speed Flight  (there's some good wiki content
around on the R, the Schneieder et al). It's only a couple of pages
but it's a good overview by Banks of how the 1931 Schneider trophy was
so largely a last-minute re-run of the 1929 entry, unchanged except
for fuel chemistry and the resultant ability to crank the boost up.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 04:18:30 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley 
wrote:

>On 5 Aug, 18:46, "Kim Siddorn"  wrote:
>
>> I recommend the book " I Kept no Diary" by F.R. Banks. He was a fuel chemist
>> & worked on the "R" engined racing sea planes. I got mine a year or two ago
>> from a Dutch specialist interest dealer for a tad over a tenner.
>
>Cheap!  That book's damned rare.
>

Not 'that' rare, I found eight copies starting at just over a fiver plus
postage.....

Full title:

I Kept No Diary : 60 Years with Marine Diesels, Automobile and Aero Engines.(An
Autobiography)

One of which I bought, mainly on Kimbo's recommendation, we share a lot of such
interests :-))

Peter
--
Peter A Forbes
Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK
peterforbes@prepair.co.uk
http://www.prepair.co.uk
http://www.prepair.eu

On 6 Aug, 12:41, Peter A Forbes  wrote:

> >> I recommend the book " I Kept no Diary" by F.R. Banks. He was a fuel chemist
> >> & worked on the "R" engined racing sea planes. I got mine a year or two ago
> >> from a Dutch specialist interest dealer for a tad over a tenner.
>
> >Cheap!  That book's damned rare.
>
> Not 'that' rare, I found eight copies starting at just over a fiver plus
> postage.....

Hmmm.... That's rather less than I paid about 4 years ago, when I was
looking for stuff on the Coastal Motor Boats.  8-(

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 06:01:41 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley 
wrote:

>On 6 Aug, 12:41, Peter A Forbes  wrote:
>
>> >> I recommend the book " I Kept no Diary" by F.R. Banks. He was a fuel chemist
>> >> & worked on the "R" engined racing sea planes. I got mine a year or two ago
>> >> from a Dutch specialist interest dealer for a tad over a tenner.
>>
>> >Cheap!  That book's damned rare.
>>
>> Not 'that' rare, I found eight copies starting at just over a fiver plus
>> postage.....
>
>Hmmm.... That's rather less than I paid about 4 years ago, when I was
>looking for stuff on the Coastal Motor Boats.  8-(

There are surprising variations in books these days, so I wouldn't be too
concerned :-))

One of the reasons we buy the better quality aviation books in the USA is
because the prices are always less than we can get them for in the UK.

Graham White has edited some nice aviation books, the R-4360 book that he did is
one that I am hoping to pick up at Dayton this year. We already have the "Allied
Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II" that we got at Dayton in 2005.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Graham+White&bi=0&bx=on&ds=30&kn=Aircraft+and+engine&sortby=2&sts=t&x=21&y=14

Peter
--
Peter A Forbes
Prepair Ltd, Rushden, UK
peterforbes@prepair.co.uk
http://www.prepair.co.uk
http://www.prepair.eu

On 6 Aug, 14:47, Peter A Forbes  wrote:

> Graham White has edited some nice aviation books, the R-4360 book that he did is
> one that I am hoping to pick up at Dayton this year.

Wouldn't mind that myself.

> We already have the "Allied
> Aircraft Piston Engines of World War II" that we got at Dayton in 2005.

I picked that up for £20 in my local bookshop recently (Staple Hill,
Bristol). Expensive day though - I saw the Sunbeam aero engines book
first (£20), then this one, then we started talking at the till and a
boxful of RRHT's appeared, at a tenner or so each. I walked out rather
heavier, and £100 lighter.

Christopher Tidy wrote:

> 
> I think it still makes sense to protect the valve seats as best as I 
> can. The mower is going to see a lot more use than the stationary 
> engine. I will probably be using it for a few hours a week.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Chris
>

Here are a few articles the first of which might change your mind as to 
the neccesity of any additive at all, while the second identifies some 
rather more widely available alternatives to TEL - I used the Castrol 
one when I had the Marlin kit car (1800 'B' series engine).

  http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgoc&a=&p=emg/emg110201.html

http://www.quillertriumph.co.uk/Quiller/Unleaded/federation%20info.htm

and, if you have the time, this is rather interesting

http://www.mg-tabc.org/techn-up/leadfree.htm

suggesting that leaded fuel can be deleterious to engines with 
inapropriate exhaust valve materials (I have also heared that it can 
knacker older sparing plugs - particularly the mica insulated variety)

Personally I don't think VSR is likely to be an issue in any of 'our' 
sorts of engine.

NHH

"Christopher Tidy"  wrote in message 
news:4898D2FB.2090809@cantabgold.net...
> Julian wrote:

> I think it still makes sense to protect the valve seats as best as I can. 
> The mower is going to see a lot more use than the stationary engine. I 
> will probably be using it for a few hours a week.

Jesus, if you're going to use a 1920's lawnmower for a few hours a week then 
you must be some sort of masochist!

Julian.