Hi

I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I have 
all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a program 
called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also used a program 
called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar results.

I already have built a 150 litre cabinet to use with my speaker. I want to 
tune my bassreflex box to 65Hz. The program says that with my rear baffle 
thickness of 18mm, and 2 flush ends (I'm using a hole in the rear baffle for 
port) I need to make a hole 300mm in diameter, to tune the box to 65Hz.

The port would be larger in diameter than my speaker, which is 279mm. Will 
this kind of design work?
The program says that if I use 4 ports, 100mm each is sufficient, will this 
work either? Is there any difference?

Thanks for answers!

TT

"TT"
>
> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I 
> have all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a 
> program called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also used 
> a program called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar 
> results.
>
> I already have built a 150 litre cabinet to use with my speaker. I want to 
> tune my bassreflex box to 65Hz. The program says that with my rear baffle 
> thickness of 18mm, and 2 flush ends (I'm using a hole in the rear baffle 
> for port) I need to make a hole 300mm in diameter, to tune the box to 
> 65Hz.
>
> The port would be larger in diameter than my speaker, which is 279mm. Will 
> this kind of design work?


** Yes.

I built two such tuned cabinets 30 years ago  -  with 3 x 12 inch, low cost, 
16 ohm guitar speakers in a 250 litre box.

With a horn tweeter on top and driven by a Rotel 1210 amplifier, they were 
used for a " disco'  system by a church social group.

The only complaint I had was there was actually so much bass the tone 
controls were turned back to tame it a bit.


> The program says that if I use 4 ports, 100mm each is sufficient, will 
> this work either? Is there any difference?


**  Yes it also works and there is very little difference.



....  Phil

TT wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I have 
> all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a program 
> called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also used a program 
> called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar results.
> 
> I already have built a 150 litre cabinet to use with my speaker. I want to 
> tune my bassreflex box to 65Hz. The program says that with my rear baffle 
> thickness of 18mm, and 2 flush ends (I'm using a hole in the rear baffle for 
> port) I need to make a hole 300mm in diameter, to tune the box to 65Hz.
> 
> The port would be larger in diameter than my speaker, which is 279mm. Will 
> this kind of design work?
> The program says that if I use 4 ports, 100mm each is sufficient, will this 
> work either? Is there any difference?
> 
> Thanks for answers!
> 
> TT 
> 
> 

This is not how guitar speakers are designed. Reflex speakers are 
generally poor guitar designs, which should be dropping fairly fast from 
about 100Hz, and with some nice hefty peaks up at a few kHz. Go for a 
fully sealed box if it is fairly big, or for a smaller cabinet, have 
about half of the back panel open.

High fidelity and flat response are NOT what you need for this job.

d

"Phil Allison"  wrote in message 
news:6jepomF2rapvU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "TT"
>>
>> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I 
>> have all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a 
>> program called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also 
>> used a program called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar 
>> results.
>>
>> I already have built a 150 litre cabinet to use with my speaker. I want 
>> to tune my bassreflex box to 65Hz. The program says that with my rear 
>> baffle thickness of 18mm, and 2 flush ends (I'm using a hole in the rear 
>> baffle for port) I need to make a hole 300mm in diameter, to tune the box 
>> to 65Hz.
>>
>> The port would be larger in diameter than my speaker, which is 279mm. 
>> Will this kind of design work?
>
>
> ** Yes.
>
> I built two such tuned cabinets 30 years ago  -  with 3 x 12 inch, low 
> cost, 16 ohm guitar speakers in a 250 litre box.
>
> With a horn tweeter on top and driven by a Rotel 1210 amplifier, they were 
> used for a " disco'  system by a church social group.
>
> The only complaint I had was there was actually so much bass the tone 
> controls were turned back to tame it a bit.
>
>
>> The program says that if I use 4 ports, 100mm each is sufficient, will 
>> this work either? Is there any difference?
>
>
> **  Yes it also works and there is very little difference.
>
>
>
> ....  Phil

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for your answer! I'll give my speaker cab a try then.

Cheers!

TT

"TT"  wrote in message news:gatavk$alr$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...

You're using my name :-(  Is it just a coincidence or are you doing it for a 
particular reason?

Cheers TT

Don Pearce wrote:

> 
> This is not how guitar speakers are designed. Reflex speakers are 
> generally poor guitar designs, which should be dropping fairly fast from 
> about 100Hz, and with some nice hefty peaks up at a few kHz. Go for a 
> fully sealed box if it is fairly big, or for a smaller cabinet, have 
> about half of the back panel open.
> 
> High fidelity and flat response are NOT what you need for this job.
> 

This is true. Also, 150 litres is ridiculously large for a 1x 12 guitar speaker. I have a 12" JBL in a 40-litre cabinet for my bass!

The problem with using WinIsd and similar programs is that you must know the target respons of your planned system, i.e. the frequency response you are aiming to achieve. Otherwise, it will often suggest an over-large box that is useless. Which, if I am not very much mistaken, is what you are going to end up with.

Use a speaker designed for guitar and get the manufacturer's cabinet recommendations. Easy.

Stephen

Stephen McLuckie wrote:
> Don Pearce wrote:
> 
>>
>> This is not how guitar speakers are designed. Reflex speakers are 
>> generally poor guitar designs, which should be dropping fairly fast 
>> from about 100Hz, and with some nice hefty peaks up at a few kHz. Go 
>> for a fully sealed box if it is fairly big, or for a smaller cabinet, 
>> have about half of the back panel open.
>>
>> High fidelity and flat response are NOT what you need for this job.
>>
> 
> This is true. Also, 150 litres is ridiculously large for a 1x 12 guitar 
> speaker. I have a 12" JBL in a 40-litre cabinet for my bass!
> 
> The problem with using WinIsd and similar programs is that you must know 
> the target respons of your planned system, i.e. the frequency response 
> you are aiming to achieve. Otherwise, it will often suggest an 
> over-large box that is useless.

WinISD will allow you to tweak the box and port size, and show the 
frequency response graph.
So there's no problem.

-- 
Eiron.

"TT"  wrote in message 
news:IrSdnSZBTLg90k_VnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>
> "TT"  wrote in message news:gatavk$alr$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>
> You're using my name :-(  Is it just a coincidence or are you doing it for 
> a particular reason?
>
> Cheers TT
>
I didn't know there already was a guy named "TT". Coincidence yes, my 
initials are "TT".

TT

"Eiron"
>
> WinISD will allow you to tweak the box and port size, and show the 
> frequency response graph.
> So there's no problem.


** Exactly.

The default (ideal) response curve and box volume / tuning frequency 
supplied by WinISD are only a starting point.

One can usually almost halve the box volume and fiddle with the tuning 
frequency and still get an perfectly acceptable result with most modern LF 
drivers.

Play the same game with 4th order BP boxes and you will have lots of fun.




.....   Phil

"TT"  wrote in message news:gavuo2$n9o$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>
> "TT"  wrote in message 
> news:IrSdnSZBTLg90k_VnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>
>> "TT"  wrote in message news:gatavk$alr$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>>
>> You're using my name :-(  Is it just a coincidence or are you doing it 
>> for a particular reason?
>>
>> Cheers TT
>>
> I didn't know there already was a guy named "TT". Coincidence yes, my 
> initials are "TT".
>
> TT

I have posted here on and off  for a couple of years now so please check. I 
would suggest to you that it may be a little confusing for others, so 
perhaps, it would be in our best interests if you made a slight alteration 
to your posting identity so as to not have any confusion.  BTW as you will 
see from my munged real email address I am quite legitimate in who and what 
I say I am.  If you wish to contact me off group remove the "nospam" from my 
email.

Cheers TT  (the original one)  :-))

Eiron wrote:

> 
> WinISD will allow you to tweak the box and port size, and show the 
> frequency response graph.
> So there's no problem.
> 

It is a problem if you end up putting a 12" driver in a 150 litre cabinet.

TT wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I have 
> all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a program 
> called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also used a program 
> called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar results.

What's the speaker model and what are the basic parameters?

"Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
news:F76dnToNgIOhRU7VnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Eiron wrote:
>
>>
>> WinISD will allow you to tweak the box and port size, and show the 
>> frequency response graph.
>> So there's no problem.
>>
>
> It is a problem if you end up putting a 12" driver in a 150 litre cabinet.

I agree the box is big, but I don't have a problem with the size, 150 litres 
is fine to me. It's all very experimental. If I don't like the big box, I 
can throw it away and make a smaller one.

TTT

"TT"  wrote in message 
news:F6mdnS0699gUU07VRVnyhQA@westnet.com.au...
>
> "TT"  wrote in message news:gavuo2$n9o$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>>
>> "TT"  wrote in message 
>> news:IrSdnSZBTLg90k_VnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> "TT"  wrote in message news:gatavk$alr$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>>>
>>> You're using my name :-(  Is it just a coincidence or are you doing it 
>>> for a particular reason?
>>>
>>> Cheers TT
>>>
>> I didn't know there already was a guy named "TT". Coincidence yes, my 
>> initials are "TT".
>>
>> TT
>
> I have posted here on and off  for a couple of years now so please check. 
> I would suggest to you that it may be a little confusing for others, so 
> perhaps, it would be in our best interests if you made a slight alteration 
> to your posting identity so as to not have any confusion.  BTW as you will 
> see from my munged real email address I am quite legitimate in who and 
> what I say I am.  If you wish to contact me off group remove the "nospam" 
> from my email.
>
> Cheers TT  (the original one)  :-))
All taken care of now.

TTT

"TT"  wrote in message news:gatavk$alr$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> Hi
>
> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I 
> have all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a 
> program called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also used 
> a program called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar 
> results.
>
> I already have built a 150 litre cabinet to use with my speaker. I want to 
> tune my bassreflex box to 65Hz. The program says that with my rear baffle 
> thickness of 18mm, and 2 flush ends (I'm using a hole in the rear baffle 
> for port) I need to make a hole 300mm in diameter, to tune the box to 
> 65Hz.
>
> The port would be larger in diameter than my speaker, which is 279mm. Will 
> this kind of design work?
> The program says that if I use 4 ports, 100mm each is sufficient, will 
> this work either? Is there any difference?
>
> Thanks for answers!

**If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning much below 80Hz. For 
lead/rhythm guitars, there is no need for any signal remotely that low. Use 
a smaller box and tune higher.


-- 
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

TTT wrote:

> 
> I agree the box is big, but I don't have a problem with the size, 150 litres 
> is fine to me. It's all very experimental. If I don't like the big box, I 
> can throw it away and make a smaller one.
> 
> TTT 

The average size of a 12" cabinet built by companies that specialize in guitar cabinets is probably around 25 litres. I would guess that a Marshall 4 x 12 is somewhere around 100 litres.

As Don said, you are not building a hi-fi cabinet here. Companies have been building speakers for the electric guitar for over half a century; they have it pretty well sussed. But if you think you can do better, then go ahead.

Trevor Wilson wrote:

> 
> **If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning much below 80Hz. For 
> lead/rhythm guitars, there is no need for any signal remotely that low. Use 
> a smaller box and tune higher.

I have been following this list for a while - mainly, but not always, as a lurker - and I must say, I am in awe of the knowledge and expertise of the people who post here. It's interesting, however, that there are a few areas in which complete ignorance reigns.

Because the lowest frequency of a bass guitar cab (4-string) is around 40Hz, you should tune a bass guitar cab to around 45Hz. For normal electric guitar, don't use a reflex cab, use a sealed cab or an open-backed cab, depending on the parameters of the speaker.

"Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
news:UuqdnZ4xYZkJlEnVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>
>> **If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning much below 80Hz. For 
>> lead/rhythm guitars, there is no need for any signal remotely that low. 
>> Use a smaller box and tune higher.
>
> I have been following this list for a while - mainly, but not always, as a 
> lurker - and I must say, I am in awe of the knowledge and expertise of the 
> people who post here. It's interesting, however, that there are a few 
> areas in which complete ignorance reigns.
>
> Because the lowest frequency of a bass guitar cab (4-string) is around 
> 40Hz, you should tune a bass guitar cab to around 45Hz. For normal 
> electric guitar, don't use a reflex cab, use a sealed cab or an 
> open-backed cab, depending on the parameters of the speaker.

**Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass guitar is higher than 
80Hz. Almost no fundamental is audible. It's all second harmonic.


-- 
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"TTT"  wrote in message news:gb0q30$flh$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>
> "TT"  wrote in message 
> news:F6mdnS0699gUU07VRVnyhQA@westnet.com.au...
>>
>> "TT"  wrote in message news:gavuo2$n9o$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>>>
>>> "TT"  wrote in message 
>>> news:IrSdnSZBTLg90k_VnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>>>
>>>> "TT"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:gatavk$alr$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
>>>>
>>>> You're using my name :-(  Is it just a coincidence or are you doing it 
>>>> for a particular reason?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers TT
>>>>
>>> I didn't know there already was a guy named "TT". Coincidence yes, my 
>>> initials are "TT".
>>>
>>> TT
>>
>> I have posted here on and off  for a couple of years now so please check. 
>> I would suggest to you that it may be a little confusing for others, so 
>> perhaps, it would be in our best interests if you made a slight 
>> alteration to your posting identity so as to not have any confusion.  BTW 
>> as you will see from my munged real email address I am quite legitimate 
>> in who and what I say I am.  If you wish to contact me off group remove 
>> the "nospam" from my email.
>>
>> Cheers TT  (the original one)  :-))
> All taken care of now.
>
> TTT
Thank you very much :-)  BTW It is a great name :-))

Cheers TT

"Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
news:F76dnTUNgIN_RU7VnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> TT wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I 
>> have all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a 
>> program called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also 
>> used a program called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar 
>> results.
>
> What's the speaker model and what are the basic parameters?

It's Eminence Cannabis Rex

fs: 96Hz
Re: 6.56
Le: 0.44mH
Qms: 9.28
Qes: 0.69
Qts: 0.64
Vas: 50.0 litres
Vd: 45cc
Cms: 0.11mm/N
BL: 11.8 T-M
Mms: 24 grams
EBP: 139
Xmax: 0.8mm
Sd: 558.6cm2

8ohm, 50W, sensitivity 102.

TTT

TTT wrote:
> "Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
> news:F76dnTUNgIN_RU7VnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> TT wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I'm building a 1x12" speaker cabinet to use with my guitar amp head. I 
>>> have all the thiele/small parameters for my speaker, and have used a 
>>> program called BandBox Pro to design the speaker cabinet. I have also 
>>> used a program called WinIsd to check and both programs give me similiar 
>>> results.
>> What's the speaker model and what are the basic parameters?
> 
> It's Eminence Cannabis Rex
> 
> fs: 96Hz
> Re: 6.56
> Le: 0.44mH
> Qms: 9.28
> Qes: 0.69
> Qts: 0.64
> Vas: 50.0 litres
> Vd: 45cc
> Cms: 0.11mm/N
> BL: 11.8 T-M
> Mms: 24 grams
> EBP: 139
> Xmax: 0.8mm
> Sd: 558.6cm2
> 
> 8ohm, 50W, sensitivity 102.
> 
> TTT 
> 
> 

With an Xmax of only 0.8mm, you really do need to keep the bass out of 
this speaker. I haven't come across it before - being from the UK, 
Celestion has always been the first choice.

d

Stephen McLuckie wrote:

> Use a speaker designed for guitar

Typically one with a paper suspension at the edge rather than linen for more overtones.

Graham

Trevor Wilson wrote:


> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass guitar is higher than 
> 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is audible. It's all second harmonic.

Because it's an amplified  instrument, the amount of fundamental present depends purely on how much you dial in. That, of course, depends on a lot of things, but an amplified bass is still quite capable of generating large amounts of 41Hz.

Commercial bass guitar amp manufacturers tune their cabs to between 40 and 50Hz. Some even mention this on their websites. If you can show me a company that tunes to above 80Hz, I'll give you a banana.

TTT wrote:
> "Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
>> What's the speaker model and what are the basic parameters?
> 
> It's Eminence Cannabis Rex

That particular driver has quite a good reputation.

Apart from the fact that virtually nobody builds reflex cabs for electric guitar, a Qts of .64 does not really lend itself to a reflex design. It's too high. Putting this driver in a 150 litre box will give you a flat response down to 60Hz, which you really don't need - or want.

I put the parameters through Eminence's own box design software and it suggests anything between 15 and 50 litres for a sealed cab. 25 litres looked quite good with a Qtc of .82. It's certainly quite forgiving in terms of box size.

Eminence says it is suitable for both sealed and open back cabinets. Here's a guitar amp that uses one: http://www.carramps.com/hammerheadmk2.html#specs.
The site contains a sound sample (which is quite impressive) and the dimensions of their 1 x 12 cabinet using that driver. You could do a lot worse than simply copying that particular box.

"Stephen McLuckie"
 Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>
>> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass guitar is higher than 
>> 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is audible. It's all second harmonic.
>
> Because it's an amplified  instrument, the amount of fundamental present 
> depends purely on how much you dial in.


**  Plus, of course, how and where along its length the player excites the 
string.


> That, of course, depends on a lot of things, but an amplified bass is 
> still
> quite capable of generating large amounts of 41 Hz.


**  Pure sine wave are perfectly possible with many electric basses.


> Commercial bass guitar amp manufacturers tune their cabs to between 40 and 
> 50Hz. Some even mention this on their websites. If you can show
> me a company that tunes to above 80Hz, I'll give you a banana.


** TW would appreciate that  -  being the trumped up Google monkey he is.

Bet he has never examined or tested an electric bass guitar in his life.

Nor any bass amp of any kind.




....   Phil

"Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
news:c9udnREH8rfCi0vVnZ2dnUVZ8qvinZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>
>> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass guitar is higher than 
>> 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is audible. It's all second harmonic.
>
> Because it's an amplified  instrument, the amount of fundamental present 
> depends purely on how much you dial in. That, of course, depends on a lot 
> of things, but an amplified bass is still quite capable of generating 
> large amounts of 41Hz.

**I've measured a few and none (that I've measured) deliver appreciable 
amounts of fundamental. By appreciable, I mean more than 10dB below the 
second harmonic.

>
> Commercial bass guitar amp manufacturers tune their cabs to between 40 and 
> 50Hz. Some even mention this on their websites. If you can show me a 
> company that tunes to above 80Hz, I'll give you a banana.

**Tuning above 80Hz would not be smart. Tuning APPRECIABLY below 80Hz is 
simply wasteful. There is no point in tuning to 50Hz. IF (and I have 
certainly not measured every guitar) a guitar exists that delivers 
appreciable fundamental, then and only then, would there be a point to tune 
at or around 40Hz.


-- 
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Eiron"

> WinISD will allow you to tweak the box and port size, and show the 
> frequency response graph.
> So there's no problem.


** There  IS  one trap though -   you must have an amplifier with low output 
impedance( ie good damping factor) or the response graph model used by 
simulators like WinISD are gonna be hopelessly wrong.

Most SS bass guitar and guitar amps have low output impedance -  but some 
are deliberately made to have a high one.  Which is which is not east to 
tell as makers very rarely spec it.

With valve guitar amps,  the vast majority have high output impedance ( 
anywhere from 5 to 100 ohms) though again exceptions exist there too.



.....   Phil

"Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
news:UuqdnZ4xYZkJlEnVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>>
>> **If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning much below 80Hz. For 
>> lead/rhythm guitars, there is no need for any signal remotely that low. 
>> Use a smaller box and tune higher.
>
> I have been following this list for a while - mainly, but not always, as a 
> lurker - and I must say, I am in awe of the knowledge and expertise of the 
> people who post here. It's interesting, however, that there are a few 
> areas in which complete ignorance reigns.
>
> Because the lowest frequency of a bass guitar cab (4-string) is around 
> 40Hz, you should tune a bass guitar cab to around 45Hz. For normal 
> electric guitar, don't use a reflex cab, use a sealed cab or an 
> open-backed cab, depending on the parameters of the speaker.

5-string bass guitars are not uncommon - particularly
on recording sessions. The lowest string is normally
tuned to B natural, at approx 30Hz.

Iain

"Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message 
news:zICdnR41-oSAvEvVnZ2dnUVZ8qvinZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> TTT wrote:
>> "Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in message
>>> What's the speaker model and what are the basic parameters?
>>
>> It's Eminence Cannabis Rex
>
> That particular driver has quite a good reputation.
>
> Apart from the fact that virtually nobody builds reflex cabs for electric 
> guitar, a Qts of .64 does not really lend itself to a reflex design. It's 
> too high. Putting this driver in a 150 litre box will give you a flat 
> response down to 60Hz, which you really don't need - or want.
>
> I put the parameters through Eminence's own box design software and it 
> suggests anything between 15 and 50 litres for a sealed cab. 25 litres 
> looked quite good with a Qtc of .82. It's certainly quite forgiving in 
> terms of box size.
>
> Eminence says it is suitable for both sealed and open back cabinets. 
> Here's a guitar amp that uses one: 
> http://www.carramps.com/hammerheadmk2.html#specs.
> The site contains a sound sample (which is quite impressive) and the 
> dimensions of their 1 x 12 cabinet using that driver. You could do a lot 
> worse than simply copying that particular box.

So if I put a driver like this in a 150 litre box, what problems do I 
encounter? Why are guitar speakers put into small boxes? To control the 
amount of bass they produce?
How will my 150 litre box sound? It's already nearly finished, what kind of 
results are you predicting I will get? If it is too bassy I will remove the 
bass reflex holes and then I will have a 150 litre sealed cab. How do you 
think it will work that way?

From my experience, normal guitar cabs sound like they lack in bass 
response. They are tight, and clear, I want something with a bit more bass. 
What should I go for?

Many thanks for the good discussion and helpful answers in this group

TTT

"Trevor Wilson"  wrote
in message news:6jig6hF3h8l8U1@mid.individual.net

> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass
> guitar is higher than 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is
> audible. It's all second harmonic.

Written by someone who has obviously never actually analyzed the signal that 
comes out of a pickup from a bass guitar.

The fundamentals can be there if you don't lose them along the way.

I do suspect that few bass guitar amps are actually competent reproducers of 
the region 32 Hz, which is approximately the fundamental of the lowest note 
playable on a 5-string bass guitar.

"Iain Churches"  wrote in message
news:hNHBk.69363$_03.49824@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi
> "Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in
> message
> news:UuqdnZ4xYZkJlEnVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> **If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning
>>> much below 80Hz. For lead/rhythm guitars, there is no
>>> need for any signal remotely that low. Use a smaller
>>> box and tune higher.
>>
>> I have been following this list for a while - mainly,
>> but not always, as a lurker - and I must say, I am in
>> awe of the knowledge and expertise of the people who
>> post here. It's interesting, however, that there are a
>> few areas in which complete ignorance reigns. Because the lowest 
>> frequency of a bass guitar cab
>> (4-string) is around 40Hz, you should tune a bass guitar
>> cab to around 45Hz. For normal electric guitar, don't
>> use a reflex cab, use a sealed cab or an open-backed
>> cab, depending on the parameters of the speaker.
>
> 5-string bass guitars are not uncommon - particularly
> on recording sessions. The lowest string is normally
> tuned to B natural, at approx 30Hz.

Right, and if you do a proper job of transmitting them through an audio 
system, the fundamental is significant.

Most bass guitar amps are not really all that competent of bass reproducers.

TTT wrote:

> 
> So if I put a driver like this in a 150 litre box, what problems do I 
> encounter? 

How's your back? Do you really want to carry something the size of a fridge to gigs? Do you have a house with a lot of space and a big car?
Other guitarists will laugh at you. Some insensitive people will wonder whether you are compensating for the size of your penis.

Why are guitar speakers put into small boxes? To control the 
> amount of bass they produce?

Because they don't need to produce large amounts of low bass.

> How will my 150 litre box sound? 

Just guessing, but your cabinet will probably sound boomy and boxy.

It's already nearly finished, what kind of 
> results are you predicting I will get? If it is too bassy I will remove the 
> bass reflex holes and then I will have a 150 litre sealed cab. How do you 
> think it will work that way?

Boom boom boom boom. Fart.

> From my experience, normal guitar cabs sound like they lack in bass 
> response. They are tight, and clear, I want something with a bit more bass. 
> What should I go for?

You may be confusing excess treble with lack of bass. I think the driver you have will give you the nice, smooth, rounded sound I think you're after. Build a sealed cab, as opened back cabs tend to be brighter (i.e. less bass). What did you think of the sound clip? There was plenty of bass there, wasn't there? And there's always the bass knob on your amp.

"Arny Krueger"  wrote in message
news:T6ydnWmRDcAbGUrVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Iain Churches"  wrote in message
> news:hNHBk.69363$_03.49824@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi
>> "Stephen McLuckie"  wrote in
>> message
>> news:UuqdnZ4xYZkJlEnVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> **If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning
>>>> much below 80Hz. For lead/rhythm guitars, there is no
>>>> need for any signal remotely that low. Use a smaller
>>>> box and tune higher.
>>>
>>> I have been following this list for a while - mainly,
>>> but not always, as a lurker - and I must say, I am in
>>> awe of the knowledge and expertise of the people who
>>> post here. It's interesting, however, that there are a
>>> few areas in which complete ignorance reigns. Because the lowest
>>> frequency of a bass guitar cab
>>> (4-string) is around 40Hz, you should tune a bass guitar
>>> cab to around 45Hz. For normal electric guitar, don't
>>> use a reflex cab, use a sealed cab or an open-backed
>>> cab, depending on the parameters of the speaker.
>>
>> 5-string bass guitars are not uncommon - particularly
>> on recording sessions. The lowest string is normally
>> tuned to B natural, at approx 30Hz.
>
> Right, and if you do a proper job of transmitting them through an audio
> system, the fundamental is significant.

Agreed

>
> Most bass guitar amps are not really all that competent of bass
> reproducers.


For that very reason it is often avantageous to use a DI
(direct injection) box, and split the feed, taking a direct to
the console, with a mic on the speaker to capture the colour
which gives the stage sound its sonic signature.

The fundamental, 30Hz on a 5-string bass guitar,
is indeed significant.

Iain

"Iain Churches"  wrote in message
news:PLMBk.69490$_03.60231@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi
> "Arny Krueger"  wrote in message
> news:T6ydnWmRDcAbGUrVnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "Iain Churches"  wrote in message
>> news:hNHBk.69363$_03.49824@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi
>>> "Stephen McLuckie"  wrote
>>> in message
>>> news:UuqdnZ4xYZkJlEnVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **If you use a bass guitar, then don't bother tuning
>>>>> much below 80Hz. For lead/rhythm guitars, there is no
>>>>> need for any signal remotely that low. Use a smaller
>>>>> box and tune higher.
>>>>
>>>> I have been following this list for a while - mainly,
>>>> but not always, as a lurker - and I must say, I am in
>>>> awe of the knowledge and expertise of the people who
>>>> post here. It's interesting, however, that there are a
>>>> few areas in which complete ignorance reigns. Because
>>>> the lowest frequency of a bass guitar cab
>>>> (4-string) is around 40Hz, you should tune a bass
>>>> guitar cab to around 45Hz. For normal electric guitar, don't
>>>> use a reflex cab, use a sealed cab or an open-backed
>>>> cab, depending on the parameters of the speaker.

>>> 5-string bass guitars are not uncommon - particularly
>>> on recording sessions. The lowest string is normally
>>> tuned to B natural, at approx 30Hz.

>> Right, and if you do a proper job of transmitting them
>> through an audio system, the fundamental is significant.

> Agreed

>> Most bass guitar amps are not really all that competent
>> of bass reproducers.

> For that very reason it is often advantageous to use a DI
> (direct injection) box, and split the feed, taking a
> direct to the console, with a mic on the speaker to
> capture the colour which gives the stage sound its sonic
> signature.

At church we ran with dedicated bass amps for over a year, and then wised up 
and changed over to running a direct box into a heavily-equed input on the 
console.

The music director finds it far easier to direct me with my digital 
console's parametric eq at my fingertips, in order to get the sound he 
wants. This is much better than struggling with a muso  who hobbled is by 
the inflexible simplistic tone controls on most bass amps.

Also, I'm monitoring out in the FOH where the audience sits, and not on 
stage where the sound is considerably different from what the audience 
hears.

Not having a bass amp on stage also makes life easier for the other 
musicians, as it isn't blasting in their ears from the typical back line 
location.

> The fundamental, 30Hz on a 5-string bass guitar,
> is indeed significant.

I've recorded hours and hours of it. Spectrum analysis of it was easy since 
I mix in Audition which has a pretty good spectrum analyzer built in.

BTW, our pipe organ has a 16 foot rank, and sometimes the organist plays a 
bass line along with the band. BTW the organist is a jazz pianist at night.

"Arny Krueger"  wrote in message 
news:Gb-dneeHraahGUrVnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Trevor Wilson"  wrote
> in message news:6jig6hF3h8l8U1@mid.individual.net
>
>> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass
>> guitar is higher than 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is
>> audible. It's all second harmonic.
>
> Written by someone who has obviously never actually analyzed the signal 
> that comes out of a pickup from a bass guitar.

**Wrong, but I have certainly not examined all of them. In fact, I've only 
examined 3 or 4. All were 4 string bass.

>
> The fundamentals can be there if you don't lose them along the way.

**Sure. The fundamental is at such a low level, that few ever hear much of 
it.

>
> I do suspect that few bass guitar amps are actually competent reproducers 
> of the region 32 Hz, which is approximately the fundamental of the lowest 
> note playable on a 5-string bass guitar.

**The AMP may well be a competent reproducer of the lowest frequencies, but 
the speakers rarely are. FWIW, most players filter out the lowest 
frequencies anyway. They tend to prefer a 'faster' more 'articulate' bass. 
This means that frequencies as high 1kHz are often boosted.


-- 
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Trevor Wilson"  wrote
in message news:6jq52iF4h3aiU1@mid.individual.net
> "Arny Krueger"  wrote in message
> news:Gb-dneeHraahGUrVnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "Trevor Wilson" 
>> wrote in message news:6jig6hF3h8l8U1@mid.individual.net
>>
>>> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass
>>> guitar is higher than 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is
>>> audible. It's all second harmonic.
>>
>> Written by someone who has obviously never actually
>> analyzed the signal that comes out of a pickup from a
>> bass guitar.
>
> **Wrong, but I have certainly not examined all of them.
> In fact, I've only examined 3 or 4. All were 4 string
> bass.

>> The fundamentals can be there if you don't lose them
>> along the way.

> **Sure. The fundamental is at such a low level, that few
> ever hear much of it.

I just pulled up the bass track from a multitrack recording that I made at 
church. The most intense harmonic was second, followed by fourth, third, and 
fundamental. The fundamental was only 8 dB below the most intense harmonic, 
the second.

>> I do suspect that few bass guitar amps are actually
>> competent reproducers of the region 32 Hz, which is
>> approximately the fundamental of the lowest note
>> playable on a 5-string bass guitar.

> **The AMP may well be a competent reproducer of the
> lowest frequencies, but the speakers rarely are.

Agreed in that I was speaking of "guitar amp", the common nomenclature for 
an assembly that includes the speaker.

> FWIW, most players filter out the lowest frequencies anyway.

Not the case with the players I record.  We boost the bass end of this 
channel pretty hard, with a pretty steep roll-off.   I don't have the mixer 
at hand, so I don't know the exact frequencies, Qs, and boost. If memory 
serves,  there's a > 10 dB peak in the 40 Hz range, Q on the order 2, plus 
other filters. Everthing above 2 Khz is filtered out very heavily, but 
there's a big, more gentle roll-off starting around 150 Hz.

> They tend to prefer a 'faster' more 'articulate' bass.
> This means that frequencies as high 1kHz are often
> boosted.

That gives you a sort of slappy, twangy sound. Different horses for 
different courses.

"Arny Krueger"  wrote in message 
news:FNydndHVYeVTr0XVnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Trevor Wilson"  wrote
> in message news:6jq52iF4h3aiU1@mid.individual.net
>> "Arny Krueger"  wrote in message
>> news:Gb-dneeHraahGUrVnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> "Trevor Wilson" 
>>> wrote in message news:6jig6hF3h8l8U1@mid.individual.net
>>>
>>>> **Nonsense. The lowest useful frequency from a bass
>>>> guitar is higher than 80Hz. Almost no fundamental is
>>>> audible. It's all second harmonic.
>>>
>>> Written by someone who has obviously never actually
>>> analyzed the signal that comes out of a pickup from a
>>> bass guitar.
>>
>> **Wrong, but I have certainly not examined all of them.
>> In fact, I've only examined 3 or 4. All were 4 string
>> bass.
>
>>> The fundamentals can be there if you don't lose them
>>> along the way.
>
>> **Sure. The fundamental is at such a low level, that few
>> ever hear much of it.
>
> I just pulled up the bass track from a multitrack recording that I made at 
> church. The most intense harmonic was second, followed by fourth, third, 
> and fundamental. The fundamental was only 8 dB below the most intense 
> harmonic, the second.

**Which is not too far from my own measurements.

>
>>> I do suspect that few bass guitar amps are actually
>>> competent reproducers of the region 32 Hz, which is
>>> approximately the fundamental of the lowest note
>>> playable on a 5-string bass guitar.
>
>> **The AMP may well be a competent reproducer of the
>> lowest frequencies, but the speakers rarely are.
>
> Agreed in that I was speaking of "guitar amp", the common nomenclature for 
> an assembly that includes the speaker.
>
>> FWIW, most players filter out the lowest frequencies anyway.
>
> Not the case with the players I record.  We boost the bass end of this 
> channel pretty hard, with a pretty steep roll-off.   I don't have the 
> mixer at hand, so I don't know the exact frequencies, Qs, and boost. If 
> memory serves,  there's a > 10 dB peak in the 40 Hz range, Q on the order 
> 2, plus other filters. Everthing above 2 Khz is filtered out very heavily, 
> but there's a big, more gentle roll-off starting around 150 Hz.
>
>> They tend to prefer a 'faster' more 'articulate' bass.
>> This means that frequencies as high 1kHz are often
>> boosted.
>
> That gives you a sort of slappy, twangy sound. Different horses for 
> different courses.

**Of course.


-- 
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au