Steve wrote:

>On 31 Jul, 14:52, John Russell  wrote:
>
>> But we're not leading guided walks, are we, we're taking Scouts.  The
>> navigation isn't down to the adult leader and his adult assistant, it should
>> be done by the lead Scout and his Scout assistant.
>
>"in extremity" ?

In extremity the adult leader takes over.  So that's the third level of
backup.  On a route that's manageable by Scouts how many levels of backup do
you think you need?  Too many levels of backup and the exercise becomes
meaningless and the kids will start to look for their adventure somewhere
else.  Two adults to five kids is past the point at which the adventure, to
the kids, becomes meaningless.  That's just a walk led by adults and the
chances are that the kids will be barely engaged.


-- 
John Russell
CSL  1st Pinhoe  Exeter  Devon
http://www.pinhoescouts.org.uk/cubs/
Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

Steve wrote:

>On 31 Jul, 17:57, John Russell  wrote:

>> Two adults to five kids is past the point at which the adventure, to
>> the kids, becomes meaningless.
>
>So back to the orginal point I made would you discourage or discourage
>the presence of an extra adult in a hillwalking party ?

I've long ago lost track of the original point you made.  Wasn't it that two
leaders are safer than one?  Of course.  But in a Scout party one of them
should be a Scout.


-- 
John Russell
CSL  1st Pinhoe  Exeter  Devon
http://www.pinhoescouts.org.uk/cubs/
Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

Steve wrote:

>On 1 Aug, 11:35, John Russell  wrote:
>
>> I've long ago lost track of the original point you made.  
>
>It was;
>
>"Having A.N.Other adult present in a hillwalking party is to be
>recommended, not discouraged"
>
>Do you agree or disagree ?

I disagree.


>> Wasn't it that two leaders are safer than one?  Of course.  
>
>No, those are assumptions made by others.

Two leaders - rather, one leader and an assistant, but an assistant who
remains engaged, and prepared to offer advice and take over if necessary -
is obviously safer than one.  Everybody is capable of making mistakes.


>> But in a Scout party one of them should be a Scout.
>
>The adult should be a Scout ?
>
>Whats wrong with an adult helper, who is not a member of the Scout
>Association ?

I'm talking about leaders (as in those who are leading the party) not
Leaders (as in warrant holding adults).  One of the leaders should be a
Scout, not an adult.

Why are you assuming that the leaders of the party should both be adults?
The MLTB may split the party into leaders and followers but there's no
reason we should follow suit - there should be no followers on a Scout hike,
all the party should be engaged.  Kids don't join Scouting to trudge along
all day staring at the heels of the adult in front while he shows off.  Get
out of the way and give the kids an opportunity to grow.

-- 
John Russell
CSL  1st Pinhoe  Exeter  Devon
http://www.pinhoescouts.org.uk/cubs/
Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.