Hi folks,

I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
Northern Ireland. The result is:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_Northern_Ireland

I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales

That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
It is at:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2

I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist. 

So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-

1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?

2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?

3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?

4. Are there camp sites I have missed?

5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
other traditional Scouting group?

6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
wikipedia.

Please e-mail me or add to my draft or let me have information on my
wikipedia talk page or add it here.

Is there anyone from Northern Ireland who would care to answer any of
the above questions for NI?

If the Wales article can be put in place to replace the Welsh Area
articles, which are in a terrible state, I will move on to England and
probably start drafting the article on Scouting in Greater London. I
will need assistnace on that at that time.

I would really appreciate it if anyone can help here. There are far too
few UK Scouting editors on wikipedia. 
i
Best wishes, Brian.

-- 
      Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
    My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
               Use this for reply or followup
Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.

On 16 Jul, 08:34, Brian Salter-Duke <b_d...@bigpond.net.invalid>
wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_Northern_Ireland
>
> I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales
>
> That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
> It is at:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2
>
> I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
> links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
> for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
> sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist.
>
> So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-
>
> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?
>
> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
>
> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?
>
> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?
>
> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
> other traditional Scouting group?
>
> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
> wikipedia.
>
> Please e-mail me or add to my draft or let me have information on my
> wikipedia talk page or add it here.
>
> Is there anyone from Northern Ireland who would care to answer any of
> the above questions for NI?
>
> If the Wales article can be put in place to replace the Welsh Area
> articles, which are in a terrible state, I will move on to England and
> probably start drafting the article on Scouting in Greater London. I
> will need assistnace on that at that time.
>
> I would really appreciate it if anyone can help here. There are far too
> few UK Scouting editors on wikipedia.
> i
> Best wishes, Brian.
>
> --
>       Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
>     My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
>                Use this for reply or followup
> Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.

wow!

sorry i know v little of the workings of wikipedia...

brian... how do you also find the time to make fires, get muddy and do
cool stuff?

"chris.5th"  wrote in message 
news:1486d799-bf11-45a2-bd76-f9b9a0c6ea3b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 16 Jul, 08:34, Brian Salter-Duke <b_d...@bigpond.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_Northern_Ireland
>>
>> I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales
>>
>> That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
>> It is at:-
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2
>>
>> I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
>> links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
>> for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
>> sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist.
>>
>> So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-
>>
>> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?
>>
>> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
>>
>> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?
>>
>> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?
>>
>> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
>> other traditional Scouting group?
>>
>> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
>> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
>> wikipedia.
>>
>> Please e-mail me or add to my draft or let me have information on my
>> wikipedia talk page or add it here.
>>
>> Is there anyone from Northern Ireland who would care to answer any of
>> the above questions for NI?
>>
>> If the Wales article can be put in place to replace the Welsh Area
>> articles, which are in a terrible state, I will move on to England and
>> probably start drafting the article on Scouting in Greater London. I
>> will need assistnace on that at that time.
>>
>> I would really appreciate it if anyone can help here. There are far too
>> few UK Scouting editors on wikipedia.
>> i
>> Best wishes, Brian.
>>
>> --
>>       Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
>>     My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
>>                Use this for reply or followup
>> Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.
>
> wow!
>
> sorry i know v little of the workings of wikipedia...
>
> brian... how do you also find the time to make fires, get muddy and do
> cool stuff?

According to this page 
http://www.salter-duke.bigpondhosting.com/brian/index.htm it doesn't look 
like he does, of course providing this is the same chap.

There appears to be no mention that he is involved in any way in Scouting - 
the nearest being Bushwalking and fell walking.

DaveB
West Yorks

On 16 Jul, 10:34, "Dave"  wrote:
> "chris.5th"  wrote in message
>
> news:1486d799-bf11-45a2-bd76-f9b9a0c6ea3b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 16 Jul, 08:34, Brian Salter-Duke <b_d...@bigpond.net.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi folks,
>
> >> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
> >> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
> >> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
> >> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
> >> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
> >> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_Northern_Ireland
>
> >> I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales
>
> >> That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
> >> It is at:-
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2
>
> >> I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
> >> links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
> >> for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
> >> sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist.
>
> >> So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-
>
> >> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?
>
> >> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
>
> >> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?
>
> >> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?
>
> >> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
> >> other traditional Scouting group?
>
> >> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
> >> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
> >> wikipedia.
>
> >> Please e-mail me or add to my draft or let me have information on my
> >> wikipedia talk page or add it here.
>
> >> Is there anyone from Northern Ireland who would care to answer any of
> >> the above questions for NI?
>
> >> If the Wales article can be put in place to replace the Welsh Area
> >> articles, which are in a terrible state, I will move on to England and
> >> probably start drafting the article on Scouting in Greater London. I
> >> will need assistnace on that at that time.
>
> >> I would really appreciate it if anyone can help here. There are far too
> >> few UK Scouting editors on wikipedia.
> >> i
> >> Best wishes, Brian.
>
> >> --
> >>       Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
> >>     My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
> >>                Use this for reply or followup
> >> Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.
>
> > wow!
>
> > sorry i know v little of the workings of wikipedia...
>
> > brian... how do you also find the time to make fires, get muddy and do
> > cool stuff?
>
> According to this pagehttp://www.salter-duke.bigpondhosting.com/brian/index.htmit doesn't look
> like he does, of course providing this is the same chap.
>
> There appears to be no mention that he is involved in any way in Scouting -
> the nearest being Bushwalking and fell walking.
>
> DaveB
> West Yorks

ah...

i recongnise the name from us scouting usenet groups discussing god,
gays, girls etc

"chris.5th"  wrote in message 
news:edf466e4-f8e0-4d93-830d-c91ea75963e9@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
SNIP
> ah...
>
> i recongnise the name from us scouting usenet groups discussing god,
> gays, girls etc

Yes, I used to read some of these but there were too many people getting far 
too hot headed on those subjects in a less than Scouting and Christian 
manner so I stopped.

I realise that not all those who were so vicious are Scouters nor religious 
at all but stirrers.

DaveB
West Yorks

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:46:03 -0700 (PDT), chris.5th  wrote:
> On 16 Jul, 10:34, "Dave"  wrote:
>> "chris.5th"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1486d799-bf11-45a2-bd76-f9b9a0c6ea3b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 16 Jul, 08:34, Brian Salter-Duke <b_d...@bigpond.net.invalid>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Hi folks,
>>
>> >> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>> >> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>> >> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>> >> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>> >> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>> >> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>>
>> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_Northern_Ireland
>>
>> >> I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-
>>
>> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales
>>
>> >> That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
>> >> It is at:-
>>
>> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2
>>
>> >> I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
>> >> links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
>> >> for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
>> >> sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist.
>>
>> >> So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-
>>
>> >> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?
>>
>> >> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
>>
>> >> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?
>>
>> >> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?
>>
>> >> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
>> >> other traditional Scouting group?
>>
>> >> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
>> >> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
>> >> wikipedia.
>>
>> >> Please e-mail me or add to my draft or let me have information on my
>> >> wikipedia talk page or add it here.
>>
>> >> Is there anyone from Northern Ireland who would care to answer any of
>> >> the above questions for NI?
>>
>> >> If the Wales article can be put in place to replace the Welsh Area
>> >> articles, which are in a terrible state, I will move on to England and
>> >> probably start drafting the article on Scouting in Greater London. I
>> >> will need assistnace on that at that time.
>>
>> >> I would really appreciate it if anyone can help here. There are far too
>> >> few UK Scouting editors on wikipedia.
>> >> i
>> >> Best wishes, Brian.
>>
>> >> --
>> >>       Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
>> >>     My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
>> >>                Use this for reply or followup
>> >> Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.
>>
>> > wow!

OK, let me try to address several points in one go.

>> > sorry i know v little of the workings of wikipedia...
>>
>> > brian... how do you also find the time to make fires, get muddy and do
>> > cool stuff?

I do'nt. I have a great deal of affection for Scouting and I was very
active indeed back in UK in the 1960s. I choose not to be active,
because I can not in honesty make the Scout Promise. I do not believe in
any kind of God and I'm not even sure that spiritual development makes
any sense beyond mental development in the best sense. I just do not
want to fudge it. I do not think "God" is that crucial to Scouting. I
am also 69 and have little inclination to rough it these days. If you
want to know what I did in the 60s, just ask me.

Nevertheless I think my contribution to Scouting articles on wikipedia
is one service I can do to for the Scouting movement and I think the
main editors of Scouting articles in the WikiProjecr Scouting:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting

recognise my contributions. I am the coordinator of Project mediation
there and have been for about two years.

>> According to this page
>> http://www.salter-duke.bigpondhosting.com/brian/index.htm it
>> doesn't look like he does, of course providing this is the same chap.

>> There appears to be no mention that he is involved in any way in Scouting -
>> the nearest being Bushwalking and fell walking.

You have the right web page. That is me. My last involvement was as a
Group Treaurer in Humpty Doo in the Northern Territory of Australia in
the 1990s while my kids were in Scouts and Venturers. My daughter is now
a CSL in Melbourne.

>> DaveB
>> West Yorks
>
> ah...
>
> i recongnise the name from us scouting usenet groups discussing god,
> gays, girls etc

I think you recommended me joining this list some months ago. I find it
quite interesting.

Back to wikipedia - about a year or so ago there were a number of good
editors for UK Scouting articles but they have dropped out. I am one of
the few experienced wikipedia ediors interested in Scouting in UK.
There is actaully more people assisting this in Australia than in UK.
The proposal I looked for help with has been discussed by the
WikiProject Scouting and has support. I just need to put it forward to
see what those who do not follow the Project think. These tend to be
people who pass by an article, add, alter or remove material about their
own Group without giving references or following the policies of
wikipedia. That is why we want a smaller number of good articles rather
than a large number of bad articles.

Please feel free to ask me anything you want to know. This is a serious
request for help. I do think having a good set of encyclopedic articles
on wikipedia that follow their policies is a good idea for the movement.
There are certainly a lot of articles and some are excellent. Soem are
less so.

Cheers, Brian.

-- 
      Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
    My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
               Use this for reply or followup
Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.

> I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales
>
> That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
> It is at:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2

It looks quite a bit better than what's there already.

> I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
> links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
> for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
> sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist.
>
> So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-
>
> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?

http://www.scoutswales.org.uk/communicate/links
...I think I've got them all!

> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?

There's a book, which is out of print, entitled something along the lines of 
"the welsh scout council a concise history".  There was talk of a revised 
edition for 2007, but the content never materialised.

> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?

Botany Bay, Jubile Fields, Miskin Mill, Silver Cross, Parc-le-Breos, St 
Brides, Gwersyll-y-Bryniau, Dolygear, Caddoxton, Islwyn Scout Parc

Also in Wales, but run by English counties/districts: Yr Hen Felin 
(Northants), Coetmore Mill (Herts), Yr Hen Neuadd (GLSW)

> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
> other traditional Scouting group?

There has been recently, but the one I knew of has closed.

> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
> wikipedia.

Cardiff and Newport are both nationally recognised.  I'm not aware of any 
others.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:19:58 +0100, Peter Sheppard  wrote:
>> I am now working on Wales. The proposal for this to happen is:-
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scouting_in_Wales
>>
>> That points to a page in my user space that I am developing as a draft.
>> It is at:-
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bduke/Sandbox2
>
> It looks quite a bit better than what's there already.

That is not a "big ask" as we say in Oz. The Welsh articles were
uniformally poor. The England ones are more of a spread.

>> I need assistance. If you look at that draft, you will see that I have
>> links to some Welsh Area Websites and some District websites, but not
>> for all. It seems that some Areas and some Districts do not have web
>> sites. I need references to confirm which Districts exist.
>>
>> So, is there anyone from Wales who can answer these questions:-
>>
>> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?
>
> http://www.scoutswales.org.uk/communicate/links
> ...I think I've got them all!

I had seen that but had missed some. Indeed I added it under "External
links". It is instructive how poor the coverage is. It lists 7 of the 12
Areas as having websites. I also found Ceredigion. It only covers 6 of
36 Districts, although I think I have a few more. I had certainly missed
some of the camp sites listed there.

>> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
>> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?
>
> There's a book, which is out of print, entitled something along the lines of 
> "the welsh scout council a concise history".  There was talk of a revised 
> edition for 2007, but the content never materialised.

This is most interesting. Is it:-

This is scouting...in Wales =: Dyma fudiad y sgowtiaid...yng Nghymru by
Welsh Scout Council (Unknown Binding - 1994)

which is listed on Amazon UK but not available? It would be really
usefull to have someone add some history to the article using this as a
source. I will add info on it to the talk page when the article is
created.

>> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?
>
> Botany Bay, Jubile Fields, Miskin Mill, Silver Cross, Parc-le-Breos, St 
> Brides, Gwersyll-y-Bryniau, Dolygear, Caddoxton, Islwyn Scout Parc

I few there to search on. Thanks.

> Also in Wales, but run by English counties/districts: Yr Hen Felin 
> (Northants), Coetmore Mill (Herts), Yr Hen Neuadd (GLSW)

These should be mentioned and I'll do that.

>> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
>> other traditional Scouting group?
>
> There has been recently, but the one I knew of has closed.

Did it have a long history? It might be worth mentioning to give some
coverage of the BPSA and some balance to the article.

>> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
>> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
>> wikipedia.
>
> Cardiff and Newport are both nationally recognised.  I'm not aware of any 
> others. 

Neither are given on the wikipedia article:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Show#United_Kingdom

I'll do a search.

All of this was a really great help. Thank you, Peter. It does however
illustrate just how far we are from getting references for much of
Scouting in Wales. I suspect it will be much the same in England. More
info will be most welcome.

Cheers, Brian.

-- 
      Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
    My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
               Use this for reply or followup
Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.

Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
> Northern Ireland. The result is:-

<snip>

What the heck is a region?
i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
information from leaders on the front line?

Pete Edge wrote:
> Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
> 
> <snip>
> 
> What the heck is a region?
> i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
> have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
> information from leaders on the front line?
It's the equivalent of a county in Scotland and Wales.

On 17 Jul, 22:46, Marc  wrote:
> Pete Edge wrote:
> > Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
> >> Hi folks,
>
> >> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
> >> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
> >> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
> >> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
> >> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
> >> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>
> > <snip>
>
> > What the heck is a region?
> > i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
> > have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
> > information from leaders on the front line?
>
> It's the equivalent of a county in Scotland and Wales.

do you mean  counties are extra large in S and W?

Regions in England are lots of counties i think...

so London is a region...

i think...

it is meant to be a way of sharing skills, training, events etc... i
am dubious... we can't even run counties properly... (although they
tell me that is changing in my one... we'll see... i do hope so)

chris.5th wrote:
> On 17 Jul, 22:46, Marc  wrote:
>> Pete Edge wrote:
>>> Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>>>> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>>>> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>>>> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>>>> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>>>> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>>> <snip>
>>> What the heck is a region?
>>> i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
>>> have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
>>> information from leaders on the front line?
>> It's the equivalent of a county in Scotland and Wales.
> 
> do you mean  counties are extra large in S and W?
Bugger !  No I meant somthing completely different and got it totally 
wrong, apologies all round!
>

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:45:11 -0500, Pete Edge  wrote:
> Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>
><snip>
>
> What the heck is a region?
> i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
> have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
> information from leaders on the front line?

Sorry if I was not clear. The purpose is to chose a geographcal area in
the UK which is NOT an area (small 'a') used by the Scout Association.
We had articles like "Scouting in South Yorksire" covering the Scout
Association County of South Yorksire (chosen as an example here cus that
was where I was brung up). After some discussion these were renamed to
"South Yorksire Scout County (The Scout Association)" etc., but that got
the folks from the B-P Scouts annoyed. In Wales and Scotland, we covered
the Areas. Earlier this year, the Scout Association in Scotland altered
31 Areas to about 10 Regions. I wrote one article for a region, merging
in the few Area articles, but nobody joined in to help with the others.
After a lot more discussion, it was clear that the best way forward was
to drastically decrease the number of these articles and cover all Scout
activity, Scout Assocation, B-P Scouts, etc., for larger areas. It was
proposed to use the official regions of the UK. See:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUTS:UK

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are official regions and there are
9 for England. Using these is thus neutral towrds the various
associations.  I know the B-P Scout Associations is small and the other
traditional Scout bodies are even smaller, but we have to cover
everything. In Northern Ireland, the artcile covers the "Scouting
Ireland" activity as well as the "Scout Association" 

Some people want us to cover Guiding too, but they are already have
articles on their regions and those of us with experience in UK know
that the term "Scouting" is not seen as inclusive of "Guiding" as it is
in other countries. Of course we might later include Guiding and change
the name to "Scouting and Guiding in Wales" etc.

I hope this clarifies things.

It does raise one other question. I think the SA Counties in England are
entirely contained with each in a single region. I am not clear about
Lincolnshire as the political entity of Lincolnshire is in both the East
Midlands region and the Yorksire and Humberside region. Is the Scout
County of Lincolnshre all in the East Midlands region? Anyone on the
ground there can clarify this?

Cheers, Brian.

-- 
      Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
    My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
               Use this for reply or followup
Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.

chris.5th wrote:
> On 17 Jul, 22:46, Marc  wrote
>
> do you mean  counties are extra large in S and W?
>
> Regions in England are lots of counties i think...
>
> so London is a region...
>
> i think...
>
> it is meant to be a way of sharing skills, training, events etc... i
> am dubious... we can't even run counties properly... (although they
> tell me that is changing in my one... we'll see... i do hope so)

maybe its me being dense, or maybe its coz its just gone midnight, but i'm
still confused. is this region thing a) new, b) a scout association thing, and
c) going to impact me in any way?

also, what region am i in, and who is in charge of it?

Pete Edge
ASL 24th Middlesbrough Scouts
Middlesbrough District
Cleveland County
TSA
WOSM
presumably

> Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are official regions and there are
> 9 for England.

Actually, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and England, are all 
Countries, and have one or more Chief Commissioners.  England is then 
further sub-divided into Regions.  It is possible that Wales could follow 
suit in the future, but at the moment, is recorded as having one region.

Below Regions, you have Counties, which are known as Areas in Wales, and 
Regions in Scotland!  Confusing?

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:39:26 +0100, Pete Edge  
 wrote:

> maybe its me being dense, or maybe its coz its just gone midnight, but  
> i'm still confused. is this region thinga) new

Relatively

> b) a scout association thing, and

Yes

> c) going to impact me in any way?

No

> also, what region am i in, and who is in charge of it?

No idea.

Just to confuse things, "Regions" in Scotland are not the same as in  
England.

I can give you info on Scottish regions - pages of the stuff if required,  
but basically ...

Scotland moved from 31 Areas to 8 Regions on 1st April 2008.  The  
structure now is ...

Group
District
Region
Scottish Headquarters (SHQ)
UKHQ

Each level is responsible for different things. e.g. District is  
responsible for programme, whereas the Region is a supportive role that  
doesn't duplicate "District" roles.  For instance there is no Assistant  
Regional Commissioner for Scouts.  Region has the team of advisors that  
districts so often don't have the people to fill the posts of.  Any extra  
posts that Gilwell dream up as useful now goes to Regional level!

There are only three main ARCs - for Communication, Development and Adult  
Training.  There are also ARC for Explorers and Network, as these have the  
role to support those doing this at district level, such as DESCs and  
DSNLs.  There is no responsibility to run a "Regional programme".  So  
together with the Regional Commissioner and the Regional Executive  
Committee, that it's 6 uniformed people for some of the largest  
geographical areas of the country.

Some of the previous Areas became districts, some merged, and some ceased  
to exist entirely.

So for me, I'm in Dundee District, part of East Scotland Region, in  
Scotland.

This is how the membership management system lists it.

As for England - you still have Counties, so therefore you have an extra  
layer - but I'm not sure that the responsibility works in the same way -  
is it not more of a way of the getting people to work together?

Tony

-- 
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk

>>> 1. Are there Area or District web sites I have missed?
>>
>> http://www.scoutswales.org.uk/communicate/links
>> ...I think I've got them all!
>
> I had seen that but had missed some. Indeed I added it under "External
> links". It is instructive how poor the coverage is. It lists 7 of the 12
> Areas as having websites. I also found Ceredigion. It only covers 6 of
> 36 Districts, although I think I have a few more. I had certainly missed
> some of the camp sites listed there.

Not sure how Ceredigion had dropped off the list - it's now back.  As is one 
district who's website was only recently launched.  Those which aren't 
listed are because the districts either don't exist any more, or are in the 
process of being merged.  Of those, all the websites aren't working anyway.

>>> 2. Are there any non-web references that we could use?
>>> 3. Is there more about the history of Scouting in Wales?
>>
>> There's a book, which is out of print, entitled something along the lines 
>> of
>> "the welsh scout council a concise history".  There was talk of a revised
>> edition for 2007, but the content never materialised.
>
> This is most interesting. Is it:-
>
> This is scouting...in Wales =: Dyma fudiad y sgowtiaid...yng Nghymru by
> Welsh Scout Council (Unknown Binding - 1994)
>
> which is listed on Amazon UK but not available? It would be really
> usefull to have someone add some history to the article using this as a
> source. I will add info on it to the talk page when the article is
> created.

It's possible.  The WSC office will have details, and may still have some 
copies available - see the website for email address.

>>> 4. Are there camp sites I have missed?
>>
>> Botany Bay, Jubile Fields, Miskin Mill, Silver Cross, Parc-le-Breos, St
>> Brides, Gwersyll-y-Bryniau, Dolygear, Caddoxton, Islwyn Scout Parc
>
> I few there to search on. Thanks.

Tidied up the "ownership" of a few of these.

>> Also in Wales, but run by English counties/districts: Yr Hen Felin
>> (Northants), Coetmore Mill (Herts), Yr Hen Neuadd (GLSW)
>
> These should be mentioned and I'll do that.
>
>>> 5. Is there any presence in Wales of the B-P Scout Association or any
>>> other traditional Scouting group?
>>
>> There has been recently, but the one I knew of has closed.
>
> Did it have a long history? It might be worth mentioning to give some
> coverage of the BPSA and some balance to the article.

About two years; leader dispute with TSA district.

>>> 6. Is there anything else you would like to see in the article. Gang
>>> Shows? There are none in Wales mentioned in the Gang Show article on
>>> wikipedia.
>>
>> Cardiff and Newport are both nationally recognised.  I'm not aware of any
>> others.
>
> Neither are given on the wikipedia article:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Show#United_Kingdom
>
> I'll do a search.
>
> All of this was a really great help. Thank you, Peter. It does however
> illustrate just how far we are from getting references for much of
> Scouting in Wales. I suspect it will be much the same in England. More
> info will be most welcome.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:19:25 +0100, Peter Sheppard  wrote:
>> Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are official regions and there are
>> 9 for England.
>
> Actually, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and England, are all 
> Countries, and have one or more Chief Commissioners.  England is then 
> further sub-divided into Regions.  It is possible that Wales could follow 
> suit in the future, but at the moment, is recorded as having one region.
>
> Below Regions, you have Counties, which are known as Areas in Wales, and 
> Regions in Scotland!  Confusing? 

Not confusing to me really. I understand what is going on. Scotland had
Areas but merged them into Regions in March of these year.

However, you are talking only about the Scout Association (SA).
Wikipedia has something called a neutral point of view. This means we
have to mention other associations like Scouting Ireland in NI and B-PSA
everywere it exists. It does not mean we give them equal space. Are
these English SA regions you mention the same as the official government
regions?  Where can we find out about them? Are there SA regional
Commissioners?

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be countries, but from one
government perspective they are UK regions, just like the 9 English
regions. See the reference I posted earlier.

Cheers, Brian.

-- 
      Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
    My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
               Use this for reply or followup
Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:21:36 +0100, "Tony Mochan" 
wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:39:26 +0100, Pete Edge  
> wrote:
>
>> maybe its me being dense, or maybe its coz its just gone midnight, but  
>> i'm still confused. is this region thinga) new
>
>Relatively
>
How do you define relatively new. Regions were in place when I did my
training 14-15 years ago.  They are as far as I am aware a nominal
administrative area. There is a North East Region and it does hold
regional events from time to time. But I've never been to one.

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

http://www.whitleybeaumont.co.uk

On 18 Jul, 08:30, Ewan Scott  wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:21:36 +0100, "Tony Mochan" 
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:39:26 +0100, Pete Edge
> > wrote:
>
> >> maybe its me being dense, or maybe its coz its just gone midnight, but
> >> i'm still confused. is this region thinga) new
>
> >Relatively
>
> How do you define relatively new. Regions were in place when I did my
> training 14-15 years ago.  They are as far as I am aware a nominal
> administrative area. There is a North East Region and it does hold
> regional events from time to time. But I've never been to one.
>
> Ewan Scotthttp://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk
>
> http://www.whitleybeaumont.co.uk

re Lincolnshire - The ceremonial County covers two "government office"
regions, but the administrative County of Lincoln (and the Scout
County) are in East Midlands and the other bits i.e. the Humberside
Districts south of the Humber are in Yorkshire and Humber Region.
There have also been suggestions to move parts of Lincolnshire into
the East of England GO region, but these aer connected with local
government re-organisation so unlikely to happen soon if ever.

On 18 Jul, 00:39, Pete Edge  wrote:

SNIP

> also, what region am i in, and who is in charge of it?
>
> Pete Edge
> ASL 24th Middlesbrough Scouts
> Middlesbrough District
> Cleveland County
> TSA
> WOSM
> presumably

You are in the North East Region which has a Regional Commissioner
named Mark Tarry.

His role mainly involves him working directly with CCs/DCs and with
the Regional Development Team led by Tony Lyon in the NE.

Mark P
West Yorkshire

"Pete Edge"  wrote in message 
news:PM0004523F275A480C@pedge-macbook.pedgedom.PedgeDom...
> Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>
> <snip>
>
> What the heck is a region?
> i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
> have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
> information from leaders on the front line?

A region is not an area that has the normal things but a collection of 
Counties that HQ have grouped together for certain things.

Like CCs will attend Regional meetings so do not have to travel to Gilwell 
all the time (they do sometimes).

For my county we are the North East Region. As I said there are no 
commissioners etc but the CCs within and the FDOs for those along with HQ 
staff who run the meetings and training events etc.

DaveB
West Yorks

On 18 Jul, 09:30, "Dave"  wrote:
> "Pete Edge"  wrote in message
>
> news:PM0004523F275A480C@pedge-macbook.pedgedom.PedgeDom...
>
>
>
> > Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
> >> Hi folks,
>
> >> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
> >> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
> >> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
> >> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
> >> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
> >> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>
> > <snip>
>
> > What the heck is a region?
> > i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
> > have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
> > information from leaders on the front line?
>
> A region is not an area that has the normal things but a collection of
> Counties that HQ have grouped together for certain things.
>
> Like CCs will attend Regional meetings so do not have to travel to Gilwell
> all the time (they do sometimes).
>
> For my county we are the North East Region. As I said there are no
> commissioners etc but the CCs within and the FDOs for those along with HQ
> staff who run the meetings and training events etc.
>
> DaveB
> West Yorks

The FDOs are no more!

The Regional Commissioner is supported by the Regional Development
Manager and a team of Regional Development Officers (the RDOs have
only been recently appointed in the NE and other regions).

In addition, HQ support the regions with regards to CP issues.

Mark P
West Yorkshire

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:30:39 +0100, Ewan Scott   
wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:21:36 +0100, "Tony Mochan" 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:39:26 +0100, Pete Edge
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> maybe its me being dense, or maybe its coz its just gone midnight, but
>>> i'm still confused. is this region thinga) new
>>
>> Relatively
>>
> How do you define relatively new. Regions were in place when I did my
> training 14-15 years ago.  They are as far as I am aware a nominal
> administrative area. There is a North East Region and it does hold
> regional events from time to time. But I've never been to one.

As far as I'm aware, English regions have had their emphasis changed in  
"relatively" recently.  As in the past 2-3 years, as part of the changes  
to National Commissioners etc...

I may be wrong though.

-- 
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:07:57 +0100, Brian Salter-Duke  
<b_duke@bigpond.net.invalid> wrote:

> Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be countries, but from one
> government perspective they are UK regions, just like the 9 English
> regions. See the reference I posted earlier.
>
> Cheers, Brian.

Wales of course, as I'm surprised Marc hasn't pointed out already, is a  
Principality.


-- 
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk

Tony Mochan wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:07:57 +0100, Brian Salter-Duke 
> <b_duke@bigpond.net.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may be countries, but from one
>> government perspective they are UK regions, just like the 9 English
>> regions. See the reference I posted earlier.
>>
>> Cheers, Brian.
> 
> Wales of course, as I'm surprised Marc hasn't pointed out already, is a 
> Principality.
> 
> 
It's a colony.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:30:08 +0100, 
Dave  wrote:
>
> "Pete Edge"  wrote in message 
> news:PM0004523F275A480C@pedge-macbook.pedgedom.PedgeDom...
>> Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I am in the process of rewriting the articles on wikipedia that cover
>>> Scouting in the UK by county or region. Basically, I am replacing
>>> articles on Scout Counties or Areas (i.e. Scout Association only) by
>>> articles on official regions (9 in England plus Wales, Scotland and
>>> Northern Ireland) covering all Scouting in the region. I have done
>>> Northern Ireland. The result is:-
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> What the heck is a region?
>> i know about sections, groups, districts, counties...
>> have they invented another new level of bureaucracy that will with hold
>> information from leaders on the front line?
>
> A region is not an area that has the normal things but a collection of 
> Counties that HQ have grouped together for certain things.

As I have indicated in other posts, our objective is not to write
articles about the Scout Association regions, but about all Scouting
associations in a govenment (i.e non-Scouting) defined area. However it
does raise the question whether the Scout Association Regions with their
Regional Commissioners are the same regions as the government regions
described at:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUTS:UK

and in:-

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/geography/nuts.asp

and its sub-pages. It looks, from what you have all been saying here
about the Scout Association regions, that they could be identical or at
least very similar. Are they defined on any Scout Association web page?
Can anyone help in clarifying whether they are identical regions?

Cheers, Brian.

> Like CCs will attend Regional meetings so do not have to travel to Gilwell 
> all the time (they do sometimes).
>
> For my county we are the North East Region. As I said there are no 
> commissioners etc but the CCs within and the FDOs for those along with HQ 
> staff who run the meetings and training events etc.
>
> DaveB
> West Yorks 
>
>


-- 
      Brian Salter-Duke          Melbourne, Australia
    My real address is b_duke(AT)bigpond(DOT)net(DOT)au
               Use this for reply or followup
Scouting: Tolerant, Pluralistic and Open to all young people.