POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:

"would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
appointments"

Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?

What consititutes "outstanding service "

"Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "

Waves....... (and Bar, also LSD and Bar)

Although I understand that the Medal has now been superseded by the Award 
for Merit, which is worn on a ribbon around the neck instead of being a 
medal. It is an award which someone else (GSL, DC, CC, etc) nominates you 
for. Forms have to be filled in locally, approved at County level and then 
deliberated on by the Awards Panel/Board at HQ. A lot of boxes have to be 
'ticked'. Just because you have been nominated doesn't mean you'll get it, 
nor is there any guarantee that the award for which you have been put 
forward is the award you get.

As someone who has tried to get this award for a Leader, I know it is not a 
given and I had a serious falling out with a former CC on the subject. Just 
turning up and fulfilling your normal role (ASL etc) does not constitute 
'outstanding'. It has to be shown that the Leader in question has completed 
all relevant training and has performed role/s above and beyond their normal 
appointment.

It also has to be said that there are some DC's out there that don't believe 
in awards of any sort and just will not submit nominations.

That's my understanding in a nutshell - I'm sure someone else will be along 
to put me right or fill in the gaps. :-)

Graham Lucas

"Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>

Yes - got it. It did used to be 15 years although the SA have lowered the 
time limits and did so a while ago which was quite annoying - not because I 
got mine but in a previous appointment I had to apply for awards and I 
applied for one for someone who had 6 years service as a Group Chairman and 
really deserved the CS Commendation - I was told to re-apply when the chap 
had the required amount (I think it was 7 years then), unfortunately he died 
quite suddenly before that happened (he was in early 50s).

There are guidelines avaialble to tells you how to apply and generally what 
constitutes good, outstanding and exceptional service.

Generally they are looking for someone who stands out and puts that extra 
effort in. You have to quantify that on the citation too if you are hoping 
to get higher than Commendation.

DaveB
West Yorks

"An Old Codger"  wrote in message 
news:6dj2haF2rmvsU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
> news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
>> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>>
>> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
>> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
>> appointments"
>>
>> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>>
>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>
> Waves....... (and Bar, also LSD and Bar)
>
> Although I understand that the Medal has now been superseded by the Award 
> for Merit, which is worn on a ribbon around the neck instead of being a 
> medal. It is an award which someone else (GSL, DC, CC, etc) nominates you 
> for. Forms have to be filled in locally, approved at County level and then 
> deliberated on by the Awards Panel/Board at HQ. A lot of boxes have to be 
> 'ticked'. Just because you have been nominated doesn't mean you'll get it, 
> nor is there any guarantee that the award for which you have been put 
> forward is the award you get.
>
> As someone who has tried to get this award for a Leader, I know it is not 
> a given and I had a serious falling out with a former CC on the subject. 
> Just turning up and fulfilling your normal role (ASL etc) does not 
> constitute 'outstanding'. It has to be shown that the Leader in question 
> has completed all relevant training and has performed role/s above and 
> beyond their normal appointment.
>
> It also has to be said that there are some DC's out there that don't 
> believe in awards of any sort and just will not submit nominations.
>
> That's my understanding in a nutshell - I'm sure someone else will be 
> along to put me right or fill in the gaps. :-)
>
> Graham Lucas
>
>

I don't disagree with what you have said BUT there is nothing to stop anyone 
from applying and if it does not get past your DC you can send it to CC for 
consideration. They will then discuss it with DC.

As you say there are some DCs who won't do it and the CC will know that as 
they will never have had one from that DC.

Mine keeps saying he is going to look at it and has discussed the matter 
with me (not names) as I have had experience of completing them but over the 
last 4 or 5 years misses the deadline (September) and then doesn't bother.

DaveB
West Yorks

On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "

I am a recipient of the "medal of merit" which I was presented in
January last year.

Whilst I hope I fulfilled the requirement of any post I've held during
the last 20 years, I wouldn't have used the phrase "outstanding
services" to describe it.

Awards are difficult things in my experience - when I held a district
appointment I was hounded by a CSL who insisted that his wife, the GSL
and BSL, was due recognition. This was even though their group census
showed 5 children over a total of two sections!!!!

I was suprised and honoured to receive the award (which was dated
October 2006), but imagine that 2007 saw a major increase in
applications.

Mark P
West Yorkshire

"Mark P"  wrote in message 
news:6d1226fd-fce0-4cf0-87d4-2300ab024a52@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> POR Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "

I am a recipient of the "medal of merit" which I was presented in
January last year.

Whilst I hope I fulfilled the requirement of any post I've held during
the last 20 years, I wouldn't have used the phrase "outstanding
services" to describe it.


This thing is Mark that whilst giving the service you may not see it - but 
others do. Whatyou consider to be normal may be far more that what is 
normal.


Awards are difficult things in my experience - when I held a district
appointment I was hounded by a CSL who insisted that his wife, the GSL
and BSL, was due recognition. This was even though their group census
showed 5 children over a total of two sections!!!!


Thats the thing - it has be be measurable. It is considered that a nominee 
has to have completed any training that they have to - it is considered that 
you are not in the best position to give outstanding service in many roles 
without the training to do it.

You also need to see some benefit - so a Leader who takes on for instance a 
section role and grows the section from small to large and runs programmes, 
then supports other leaders to run good programmes, possibly runs District 
things etc that are outside the "normal" role of the JD.

A Group Exec member who runs all manner of fundraising things and raises 
1000's pounds and consistently does that over a few years could be 
considered.


I was suprised and honoured to receive the award (which was dated
October 2006), but imagine that 2007 saw a major increase in
applications.

Mark P
West Yorkshire

May have but the cut off date is 1st September and usually the Awards are 
presented etc at St George's Day so yours was either applied for outside the 
normal terms or could have been presented early - I guess the first as the 
St George's ones are usually dated 23rd April.

DaveB
West Yorks

On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> Has anyone here got it?

Yup, about 3 years ago.

> What consititutes "outstanding service "

AFAIK pretty much anything that is "above the norm" of running a
section can be counted, such as being an active DSL, regular organiser
of Group or District events, obviously putting in far more hours to
the role than would be expected. DC's have a guide for what the awards
panel are looking for and putting together the citation.

As Graham has said, it's an assessment of what an individual has put
in and, therefore, unfortunately is subject to local politics rather
than going straight to an independent panel.



Jim

In message 
, Jim 
 writes
>On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
>> Has anyone here got it?
>
>Yup, about 3 years ago.
>
Can't remember how many years ago but more than several followed by bar 
and now Silver Acorn.

>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>
>AFAIK pretty much anything that is "above the norm" of running a
>section can be counted, such as being an active DSL, regular organiser
>of Group or District events, obviously putting in far more hours to
>the role than would be expected. DC's have a guide for what the awards
>panel are looking for and putting together the citation.
>
The other thing is of course that this additional effort has to be 
sustained over a long period, now a days 10-12 years is accepted but it 
used to be a minimum of 15 years above and beyond the normal call of 
duty to even be considered.

>As Graham has said, it's an assessment of what an individual has put
>in and, therefore, unfortunately is subject to local politics rather
>than going straight to an independent panel.
>
It certainly requires careful completion of the application because it 
isn't a forgone conclusion that everyone put forward will get the award 
as there are length of service awards for those who *just* do their duty 
so to speak and only put in x hours a week.
-- 
Paul Harris

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:34:26 +0100, "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking>
wrote:

>POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
>"would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
>exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
>appointments"
>
>Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?

My Dad has it (and the Bar to it) but I'm not entirely sure on exactly
what basis it was awarded other than long and committed service.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Well I ain't got it and thats after nearly 30 years of service
including 20 running the oldest established Scout and Guide newspaper
in the world. Indeed, I would put a case for being the longest running
newspaper of its kind in the world in any youth organisation.

I think however, that one of the Best things that has happened under
Peter Duncan's watch (and I believe he instigated it) is the fact that
we are now saying thank you to people more than we did for the service
they give.

Recent training courses I have been on have all started with the tutor
thanking everyone for giving up more of their time to Scouting and so
on. Its not effusive, but its nice to be appreciated.

I did it too tonight with my DVD report for the AGM. Went down a storm
it did - thank god for the Apple Mac cos it just makes making things
like that so easy.

Hopefully there aren't any DC's left who no longer believe in awards
for service, but you never know.

On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:29:46 +0100, Jim  wrote:

> On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
>> Has anyone here got it?
>
> Yup, about 3 years ago.
>
>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>
> AFAIK pretty much anything that is "above the norm" of running a
> section can be counted, such as being an active DSL, regular organiser
> of Group or District events, obviously putting in far more hours to
> the role than would be expected. DC's have a guide for what the awards
> panel are looking for and putting together the citation.

Which then leads to the question of how some people, especially in groups,  
are ever rewarded/thanked for their efforts, if it is up to the DC, who  
may not know how much effort is put in by individuals.  This then relies  
on the GSL recommending the group level leader ... and for those groups  
without a GSL, who have one person holding the whole thing together, and  
using every hour available for Scouting ...

... that's right ...

... I'd call it a postcode lottery, worthy of the NHS!


> As Graham has said, it's an assessment of what an individual has put
> in and, therefore, unfortunately is subject to local politics rather
> than going straight to an independent panel.

You mentioned the "P" word ... and that is unfortunately, what it normally  
comes down to.  Providing good Scouting at Group level is so often  
neglected, and only those that rise(/sink) through the ranks to District  
level (and above/below) are recognised.

As for the requirement for training ... noble though it may be, it has, at  
least locally in the past been totally unavailable, and should therefore  
not necessarily be a complete bar to an award! IMHO!

Tony

-- 
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk

On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "

odd that.I read the puctuation as being after 12 year. Or in the case
of outstanding service, after 10 years exceptionally.
But who knows?

Whilst not denying that awards have in the past (and probably will be
again in the future) used to boost political favours in districts &
Counties I would just point out that in my District this year we had 2
Silver Acorns & 5 Award of Merit - and only 1 of those was to someone
not involved with a group. (as it should be)

"Tony Mochan"  wrote in message 
news:op.ud1r88re700lht@mochalap...
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:29:46 +0100, Jim  wrote:
>
>> On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
>>> Has anyone here got it?
>>
>> Yup, about 3 years ago.
>>
>>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>>
>> AFAIK pretty much anything that is "above the norm" of running a
>> section can be counted, such as being an active DSL, regular organiser
>> of Group or District events, obviously putting in far more hours to
>> the role than would be expected. DC's have a guide for what the awards
>> panel are looking for and putting together the citation.
>
> Which then leads to the question of how some people, especially in groups, 
> are ever rewarded/thanked for their efforts, if it is up to the DC, who 
> may not know how much effort is put in by individuals.  This then relies 
> on the GSL recommending the group level leader


If a Leader *only* works in a Group then yes it would have to be for the GSL 
to explain to the DC or complete the form themselves as to why this person 
is performing outstanding service to the Group. So yes it is easier for a 
District or county person to be nominated as they are better seen by those 
whose job it is - but as I say it is part of a GSLs job too.

 ... and for those groups
> without a GSL, who have one person holding the whole thing together, and 
> using every hour available for Scouting ...
>
> ... that's right ...
>
> ... I'd call it a postcode lottery, worthy of the NHS!
>

If one person iss holding it all together and doing a GOOD job rather than 
muddling through - as it is not about just putting more hours in it is the 
quality; then this person should be known to the DC as they will know the 
situation in that Group.


SNIP

DaveB
West Yorks

"Shaun Joynson"  wrote in message 
news:8da58061-0985-4752-bed4-4dcf485a222a@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Well I ain't got it and thats after nearly 30 years of service
> including 20 running the oldest established Scout and Guide newspaper
> in the world. Indeed, I would put a case for being the longest running
> newspaper of its kind in the world in any youth organisation.
>
> I think however, that one of the Best things that has happened under
> Peter Duncan's watch (and I believe he instigated it) is the fact that
> we are now saying thank you to people more than we did for the service
> they give.
>

We have always been able to thank people - I think PD has suggested that we 
make more use of the Thanks Badge for those who give short service to 
Scouting.

> Recent training courses I have been on have all started with the tutor
> thanking everyone for giving up more of their time to Scouting and so
> on. Its not effusive, but its nice to be appreciated.
>

That happened here for years & I do hope itwas meant.

> I did it too tonight with my DVD report for the AGM. Went down a storm
> it did - thank god for the Apple Mac cos it just makes making things
> like that so easy.
>
> Hopefully there aren't any DC's left who no longer believe in awards
> for service, but you never know.
>

There are some believe me. The problem possibly with DCs is that some are 
only in position for 5 years, others for the maximum of 10.

If these time scales are kept it may be difficult for somew Districts to 
apply for awards as someone needs to keep a track of things so that a new DC 
with only 2 years service can apply for one for someone who has good service 
going back a long time - they would not know that if they were not around 
for the whole of that time.

Some DCs of course don't believe in them - but have one themselves, others 
believe that there are far more important things to do than applying for 
awards.

DaveB
West Yorks

On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "

I was presented with the Award of Merit recently after a mere 9 years
in Scouting in recognition of the work I have done for the District
over and above my ASL role.  The award was initially refused because
my HQ records had me marked as a District Scout Leader, a role I had
not completed the training for, and which I had done for about 12
months before becoming ASL.

Best bet is to apply, if any level (District, County, HQ) rejects the
nomination then they should provide you with details of why they have
rejected the application.

Dave Sewell
grantham-scouts.org.uk

On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "

'Outstanding Service' in my case was administering the Centenary Camp,
writing and overseeing the administration of the District Website,
supporting the District Team at many events, managing the District
Scout Shop, assisting the admin of Leader Training, co-ordinating the
Sainsburys Volunteer Week.
Ok, to be honest I am currently not working, hence having plenty of
time, but an outstanding service award was still a suprise for me!

Dave
grantham-scouts.org.uk

mundanedave wrote:
> On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
>> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>>
>> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
>> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
>> appointments"
>>
>> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>>
>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
> 
> 'Outstanding Service' in my case 

Am I the only one here not to have one?

That will teach me to keep my mouth shut?

Marc wrote:

> Am I the only one here not to have one?

Nope!  My uniform is one Eddie would be proud of - totaly devoid of all but 
the basic badges!

That said I think I read somewhere badges are now issued for length of 
service, so I should get my 10yr next year ;o)

Pete

-- 
Peter Maley
SL, 3rd Whitstable
ESL, Tombstones ESU

In message , Marc 
 writes
>
>Am I the only one here not to have one?
>
Probably not, but then again some of us have been Warranted Leaders for 
a very, very long time.

>That will teach me to keep my mouth shut?

Oink, oink! (And no that isn't meant to be my attempt at Welsh)
-- 
Paul Harris

"Marc"  wrote in message 
news:3qidnVsGHoKMouvVnZ2dnUVZ8sXinZ2d@bt.com...
>
> Am I the only one here not to have one?

Nope - I have done 24 years of service and often held more than one role - 
sometimes 3 (although one was only very small).  However I did recently get 
a 20 year badge (only after mentioning that we didn't award these in our 
District!).

I'm not saying I deserve one more than other people who have not got one but 
I have seen them awarded purely for long service as opposed to any outward 
demonstration of outstanding service.  Like Tony, I doubt it can ever be 
fair and I would do away with them - bit like the New Year Honours - we can 
all think of people that did who should not have got them and people that 
were missed that might have been a better choice.

In message , Manky Badger 
<you.must@be.joking> writes
>POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
>"would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
>exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
>appointments"
>
>Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
>What consititutes "outstanding service "
>
Looking at what others have written, it's clear that many are getting 
their awards on the basis of sheer hard work over a considerable period, 
and often for taking on arduous roles alongside their home Group 
appointment. I think this is absolutely right and proper, we have an 
awards system and it's great to see it used to give recognition to this 
sort of dedication.
If I look at the odd bit of jewellery I have picked up, it seems to 
demonstrate an alternative way get one's medals. Be in the right place 
at the right time, be part of a good team - and preferably be the oldest 
team member {|8^>, and get 'fingered' to take on high-ish profile roles. 
I'm probably a bit of a lazy s*d, so this worked okay for me with my 
awards really recognising the efforts of others.
Chris A.
-- 
Chris Atkinson
christopher.atkinson43@ntlworld.com
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

In message <5Atdk.24522$E41.11002@text.news.virginmedia.com>, Brian 
 writes
>
>Nope - I have done 24 years of service and often held more than one role -
>sometimes 3 (although one was only very small).

It isn't just the number of hats it is more about what you do whilst 
wearing them, the hours put in, the successes, what you achieved, etc. 
There are quite clear guidelines about it all and a proper procedure to 
follow for recommendations.

>However I did recently get
>a 20 year badge (only after mentioning that we didn't award these in our
>District!).
>
I didn't realise that they did them in any District the long service 
awards were I thought 15, 25, 40,50,60 & 70.  The last three having only 
recently been introduced, just made me realise I am heading for the 40 
soon having started in 1969.  Mind you I didn't get the 15 until about 
18 or 19 years.

>I'm not saying I deserve one more than other people who have not got one but
>I have seen them awarded purely for long service as opposed to any outward
>demonstration of outstanding service.

The whole idea of the long service awards is for long service, the other 
awards are for exceptional service over a long period.  I would think it 
unusual for someone to get an award that they didn't qualify for as the 
system is fairly well managed although I can well imagine some who would 
deserve an award who may not have been put forward for one.

-- 
Paul Harris

Paul Harris wrote:

>> However I did recently get
>> a 20 year badge (only after mentioning that we didn't award these in
>> our District!).
>>
> I didn't realise that they did them in any District the long service
> awards were I thought 15, 25, 40,50,60 & 70.  The last three having
> only recently been introduced, just made me realise I am heading for
> the 40 soon having started in 1969.  Mind you I didn't get the 15
> until about 18 or 19 years.

Ding, ding, all change!

Page 83 of the April & May Scouting Magazine (I knew I read something 
somewhere - just took me a while to locate it!).

Pete


-- 
Peter Maley
SL, 3rd Whitstable
ESL, Tombstones ESU

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:17:30 -0700 (PDT), Shaun Joynson
 wrote:

>I think however, that one of the Best things that has happened under
>Peter Duncan's watch (and I believe he instigated it) is the fact that
>we are now saying thank you to people more than we did for the service
>they give.

Sorry, must have missed that?

What's he instigated?



Jim

"Paul Harris"  wrote in message 
news:XkP6L0IRlmdIFwyR@zen50073.zen.co.uk...

> I would think it unusual for someone to get an award that they didn't 
> qualify for as the system is fairly well managed

Gosh - I thought there were more cynics on this group.  Fairly well managed 
it may well be but the SA has more than its fair share of old farts so no 
guarantees.

"Brian"  wrote in message 
news:lEudk.24555$E41.24442@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> "Paul Harris"  wrote in message 
> news:XkP6L0IRlmdIFwyR@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
>
>> I would think it unusual for someone to get an award that they didn't 
>> qualify for as the system is fairly well managed
>
> Gosh - I thought there were more cynics on this group.  Fairly well 
> managed it may well be but the SA has more than its fair share of old 
> farts so no guarantees.

I'll never receive any award, too willing to open my mouth when i see 
issues.

Oh well, less hassle for the uniform lol. Think your policy is rubbing off 
on me Eddie, at least for leader shirts.

-- 
Amanda Lawrence (Akela)
Dragons & Griffins
2nd/4th Barry Cub Scouts

>

> We have always been able to thank people - I think PD has suggested that we
> make more use of the Thanks Badge for those who give short service to
> Scouting.

Indeed and to his credit, that is what our GSL has done on quite a few
occasions in the last few years. Last night at the AGM he presented
one to the former secretary who has been running our Cubs in a most
excellent manner for the last two years but has now decided to step
down. Shame, because he was a natural with children. He also presented
one to a mum who has given tremendous service over the last ten years
as her three sons have progressed through the group as well.

Having been a DC I know that awards can be a complete elephant trap
and kindle all kinds of rows along the lines of "he got one and I
didn't even though I've done more than him". That's probably why my 2
predecessors made no awards at all leaving me with a bit of a backlog.
However, if you give one to everybody then it defeats the object of
the exercise, but I now regret not doing more.
There is no place on the nomination form where you can ask for a
particular award; you just write a citation and provide details of
service - the powers-that-be decide the rest. An old trick that many
use is to finish your citation with a phrase like "and I believe that
Fred has shown outstanding service to Scouting over 15 years" (a
strong hint that you want a MoM for him).
On the subject of Scouters or other adults who only have a Group role
getting awards, the only Silver Wolf awarded in our old District was
to a GSL who never held a District appointment, but he did his bit
nonetheless. We are looking to reward team players (2nd & 4th Scout
Law and all that), so I believe that doing something to help the
District, even if informally, would be required. Keeping your Group in
splendid isolation or taking from the District without giving-back is
not good Scouting in my book.
There used to be a view that Scouters who only hold District or County
appointments were more deserving of awards than Scouters who work in
Groups, because of the unrewarding nature of their role - lots of
admin and committees without actually meeting many YPs. However, I
think this is well and truly a thing of the past and is reflected in
the people now getting awards in the Counties I am involved with (GLNE
and Herts).
Splodge.

In message <l6adnY26au8S7evVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@posted.metronet>, Pete 
 writes
>Paul Harris wrote:
>
>> I didn't realise that they did them in any District the long service
>> awards were I thought 15, 25, 40,50,60 & 70.  The last three having
>> only recently been introduced, just made me realise I am heading for
>> the 40 soon having started in 1969.  Mind you I didn't get the 15
>> until about 18 or 19 years.
>
>Ding, ding, all change!
>
Except that no one has actually amended POR as yet (nudge)

>Page 83 of the April & May Scouting Magazine (I knew I read something
>somewhere - just took me a while to locate it!).
>
Thanks Pete, I suppose I should read all of it still that means my 30 
should be on the way!
-- 
Paul Harris

In message , Chris Atkinson 
 writes

>If I look at the odd bit of jewellery I have picked up, it seems to 
>demonstrate an alternative way get one's medals. Be in the right place 
>at the right time, be part of a good team - and preferably be the 
>oldest team member {|8^>, and get 'fingered' to take on high-ish 
>profile roles. I'm probably a bit of a lazy s*d, so this worked okay 
>for me with my awards really recognising the efforts of others.


They say that behind every great Man is a Woman, or in some cases may be 
there is a willing team of people pushing the old boy along.  Still just 
so long as the job gets done and results are achieved and I am sure you 
did actually deserve them all if the truth be known.
-- 
Paul Harris

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:36:22 +0100, alansplodge   
wrote:

> On the subject of Scouters or other adults who only have a Group role
> getting awards, the only Silver Wolf awarded in our old District was
> to a GSL who never held a District appointment, but he did his bit
> nonetheless. We are looking to reward team players (2nd & 4th Scout
> Law and all that), so I believe that doing something to help the
> District, even if informally, would be required. Keeping your Group in
> splendid isolation or taking from the District without giving-back is
> not good Scouting in my book.

I would agree with that, but my point was that if you help the District  
out, it may not be obvious or known by the DC, and that I imagine it is  
very difficult for a DC to maintain an accurate idea in their head of what  
every single adult in the district is doing, over and above their normal  
appointment!

For our district there are 150 adults at least, and I can name most of  
them, but certainly can't tell you how much effort each puts in, and I  
probably have more contact with Group Scouters than the DC does.

Saying that, we have a distinct lack of effective GSLs, which may not  
exactly help the problem.

Tony

-- 
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:39:45 +0100, Brian  wrote:

> I have seen them awarded purely for long service as opposed to any  
> outward
> demonstration of outstanding service.  Like Tony, I doubt it can ever be
> fair and I would do away with them - bit like the New Year Honours - we  
> can
> all think of people that did who should not have got them and people that
> were missed that might have been a better choice.

Didn't say that I can never see it being fair ... but certainly, all DCs  
would need to be tuned in to their district to a far greater extent than I  
imagine most are.  There simply isn't the right amount of time in the  
world!

And, imperfect as they are, I would certainly not do away with them.  I  
would perhaps have a little more detail publicised as guidelines, and make  
it easier for GSLs to recommend and write citations directly, so that  
those on the front line stand a higher chance of being remembered.  The  
more a DC has to do, the less they do well.

Having the HQ Awards Board, is still a good moderation step though!

Tony

-- 
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk

"mundanedave"  wrote in message 
news:48e31784-22ee-406f-804b-bb4368d9bb86@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Jul, 23:34, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
>> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>>
>> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but
>> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult
>> appointments"
>>
>> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>>
>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>
> I was presented with the Award of Merit recently after a mere 9 years


Then you were very lucky.


> in Scouting in recognition of the work I have done for the District
> over and above my ASL role.  The award was initially refused because
> my HQ records had me marked as a District Scout Leader, a role I had
> not completed the training for, and which I had done for about 12
> months before becoming ASL.
>

And what is the difference in training?

A DSL is not an ADC so the training technically for DSL is no different to 
that of SL or ASL - you are there to plan and run a Scouting Programme one 
in a Group and one at District. It is not a management role as ADC, GSL etc.

> Best bet is to apply, if any level (District, County, HQ) rejects the
> nomination then they should provide you with details of why they have
> rejected the application.
>

They don't have to.

If they consider that the time specification needs to be longer they may, if 
they believe that the award is justified but the citation needs rewording 
they might (but could do it themselves), but they do not have to give any 
reason why it has been refused.

DaveB
West Yorks

"Paul Harris"  wrote in message 
news:XkP6L0IRlmdIFwyR@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
> In message <5Atdk.24522$E41.11002@text.news.virginmedia.com>, Brian 
>  writes
>>
>>Nope - I have done 24 years of service and often held more than one role -
>>sometimes 3 (although one was only very small).
>
> It isn't just the number of hats it is more about what you do whilst 
> wearing them, the hours put in, the successes, what you achieved, etc. 
> There are quite clear guidelines about it all and a proper procedure to 
> follow for recommendations.
>
>>However I did recently get
>>a 20 year badge (only after mentioning that we didn't award these in our
>>District!).
>>
> I didn't realise that they did them in any District the long service 
> awards were I thought 15, 25, 40,50,60 & 70.  The last three having only 
> recently been introduced, just made me realise I am heading for the 40 
> soon having started in 1969.  Mind you I didn't get the 15 until about 18 
> or 19 years.
>

You are behind the times - they have had certificates for 5 and 10 for a few 
years and last year badges were introduced that have the white knot emblem 
with a number at the side - a 30 was introduced too.

I will get that next year.

SNIP

DaveB
West Yorks

"Brian"  wrote in message 
news:5Atdk.24522$E41.11002@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> "Marc"  wrote in message 
> news:3qidnVsGHoKMouvVnZ2dnUVZ8sXinZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> Am I the only one here not to have one?
>
> Nope - I have done 24 years of service and often held more than one role - 
> sometimes 3 (although one was only very small).  However I did recently 
> get a 20 year badge (only after mentioning that we didn't award these in 
> our District!).
>

So what happens to them - HQ send them out automatically for people that 
they know about. You only have to apply if someone has been involved in an 
unwarranted role and as such were not on the database.

From my point of view my first role started in April 1979 but my warrant 
wasn't until 1980 I think. HQ did not know about the first bit until I told 
them as I was an Instructor. It is listed now.

SNIP

DaveB
West Yorks

"alansplodge"  wrote in message 
news:de7947e3-a43a-42e3-8aae-02e4f390fa96@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> Having been a DC I know that awards can be a complete elephant trap
> and kindle all kinds of rows along the lines of "he got one and I
> didn't even though I've done more than him". That's probably why my 2
> predecessors made no awards at all leaving me with a bit of a backlog.
> However, if you give one to everybody then it defeats the object of
> the exercise, but I now regret not doing more.
> There is no place on the nomination form where you can ask for a
> particular award; you just write a citation and provide details of
> service - the powers-that-be decide the rest. An old trick that many
> use is to finish your citation with a phrase like "and I believe that
> Fred has shown outstanding service to Scouting over 15 years" (a
> strong hint that you want a MoM for him).

As a DC there isn't - I have seen forms signed by the CC and that had Medal 
of Merit please written on it in the area where the CC recommendation box 
is - and that is what was awarded - it had gone through the County Awards 
board too and they possibly recommended that to the CC.

SNIP

DaveB
West Yorks

"Brian"  wrote in message 
news:5Atdk.24522$E41.11002@text.news.virginmedia.com...
SNIP
> Nope - I have done 24 years of service and often held more than one role - 
> sometimes 3 (although one was only very small).  However I did recently 
> get a 20 year badge (only after mentioning that we didn't award these in 
> our District!).
>
> I'm not saying I deserve one more than other people who have not got one 
> but I have seen them awarded purely for long service as opposed to any 
> outward demonstration of outstanding service.


The thing is - no matter what we think, somebody believes that the person 
has done more than length of service as it would have to be shown on the 
form - so unless it was over egged or a blatant lie....

Lets face it we don't know what everyone is doing and how well and over what 
period of time.

> Like Tony, I doubt it can ever be fair and I would do away with them - bit 
> like the New Year Honours - we can all think of people that did who should 
> not have got them and people that were missed that might have been a 
> better choice.
>

There are some that beleive that - until they are offered one then it all 
becomes OK.

If some of the people who felt strongly actually refused the Award as you 
can then they would be putting their money where their mouth is.

I say leave them as they are but try to encourage 'managers' to think about 
it a little more - it is too late thanking somebody when they leave or die - 
it needs to be a regular thing and if it is sustained etc and an award is 
appropriate then go for it.

DaveB
West Yorks

On Jul 8, 11:34 pm, "Manky Badger" <you.m...@be.joking> wrote:
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?

No, but I got the commendation for good service last year.
A bolt out of the blue.

> What consititutes "outstanding service "

Well, my "good service" is...

VSL for 9 years.
AESL for 3 years
ESL for 3 years and DESC for 2 years at the same time.
+ Standing in for the previous DESC when necessary
+ Helping at Network since the switchover (2002)
+ Running a national camp for 3-400 Explorers/Network annually.

YiS,

Ian
Farnham DESC
Theme Park Camp www.summitnetwork.org.uk/tpc
5-7th September 2008 for Explorers/Network/SSAGO

On Jul 11, 1:20 am, "Tony Mochan"  wrote:

>...if you help the District  
> out, it may not be obvious or known by the DC, and that I imagine it is  
> very difficult for a DC to maintain an accurate idea in their head of what  
> every single adult in the district is doing, over and above their normal  
> appointment!

Quite so (although we were only a small District and I knew most of
the kids' names let alone what the adults were doing). It's part of
the Scouting ethos to hide one's light under a bushel a bit. That's
the point of having nominations from Groups or Sections (not
necessarily GSLs or ADCs). Sometimes people need to be reminded that
they can do this.
Splodge.

On Jul 11, 8:26 am, "Dave"  wrote:
> "alansplodge"  wrote in message
> > There is no place on the nomination form where you can ask for a
> > particular award; you just write a citation and provide details of
> > service - the powers-that-be decide the rest.

> As a DC there isn't - I have seen forms signed by the CC and that had Medal
> of Merit please written on it in the area where the CC recommendation box
> is - and that is what was awarded - it had gone through the County Awards
> board too and they possibly recommended that to the CC.

Ok, but the CC is unlikely to know the nominee from Adam, so is likely
to be grateful for any hints from the DC - depending of course on the
relationship between CC and DC.
Splodge.

"alansplodge"  wrote in message 
news:6d6620c7-76fe-4cdc-bee1-52ddc0931ff3@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 11, 8:26 am, "Dave"  wrote:
> "alansplodge"  wrote in message
> > There is no place on the nomination form where you can ask for a
> > particular award; you just write a citation and provide details of
> > service - the powers-that-be decide the rest.

> As a DC there isn't - I have seen forms signed by the CC and that had 
> Medal
> of Merit please written on it in the area where the CC recommendation box
> is - and that is what was awarded - it had gone through the County Awards
> board too and they possibly recommended that to the CC.

Ok, but the CC is unlikely to know the nominee from Adam, so is likely
to be grateful for any hints from the DC - depending of course on the
relationship between CC and DC.
Splodge.

I agree and by using certain words in the citation you are hinting and of 
course you can add a covering letter - but one of the main givaways CAN be 
the length too.

If someone has less than 10 years in it is likely to be Commendation, if 15 
or so years likely to be Medal/Award of Merit. If someone hasn't got either 
of these it may be rare for them to get Silver Acorn even with 25 years - 
not impossible but rare (we had 2 get it a few years ago - both Cub section 
leaders).

Another givaway is low years and no citation - if an award is granted it 
will be commendation. What concerns me here though is how the good service 
is measured if you don't have a citation.

DaveB
West Yorks

"Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>
> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
> appointments"
>
> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>
> What consititutes "outstanding service "


Talking (at the moment) totally hypothetically if one feels such an award 
has been made inappropriately, what does one do?
Is there anything to be achelived by stirring it? (If only to somehow 
improve the system for the future)

"Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
news:XZ-dnZOx6ZMS7ObVnZ2dnUVZ_ovinZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
> news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
>> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>>
>> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
>> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
>> appointments"
>>
>> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>>
>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>
>
> Talking (at the moment) totally hypothetically if one feels such an award 
> has been made inappropriately, what does one do?
> Is there anything to be achelived by stirring it? (If only to somehow 
> improve the system for the future)
>

I would guess that there is absolutely nothing you can do. I would say there 
is nothing to gain by stirring it.

At the end of the day somebody in the District believes that someone is 
worthy and an application is approved by the DC then the CC then who can you 
really appeal to.

If you have an award yourself and felt strongly that someone was awarded who 
should not have been you could always return yours with a covering letter 
why.

I guess that it would have little impact in the larger scheme of things - 
ifyou don't have one with which to protest it could be seen that you are 
making waves because you think you are more worthy and again it is likely to 
have little effect.

It is better to try and be positive and have those nominated that you 
beleive are deserving rather than being negative by stirring it about people 
who you think are not.

DaveB
West Yorks

"Dave"  wrote in message 
news:f9-dnUqFy6Qj6ObVnZ2dnUVZ8sTinZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
> news:XZ-dnZOx6ZMS7ObVnZ2dnUVZ_ovinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
>> news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>>>
>>> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, but 
>>> exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding adult 
>>> appointments"
>>>
>>> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>>>
>>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>>
>>
>> Talking (at the moment) totally hypothetically if one feels such an award 
>> has been made inappropriately, what does one do?
>> Is there anything to be achelived by stirring it? (If only to somehow 
>> improve the system for the future)
>>
>
> I would guess that there is absolutely nothing you can do. I would say 
> there is nothing to gain by stirring it.
>
> At the end of the day somebody in the District believes that someone is 
> worthy and an application is approved by the DC then the CC then who can 
> you really appeal to.
>

And what if (again keeping this hypothetical for the moment) the GSL had 
disapproved of the award and when the DC actually saw who he was giving it 
to admitted he'd made a mistake........

You're right, there's probably nothing to be acheived after the event....

In message , Manky Badger 
<you.must@be.joking> writes
>
>Talking (at the moment) totally hypothetically if one feels such an award
>has been made inappropriately, what does one do?

I would suggest nothing as being the most appropriate action.  You will 
do no good by doing anything else.

>Is there anything to be achelived by stirring it? (If only to somehow
>improve the system for the future)
>
I doubt you will do anything positive, the system works based on the DC 
putting forward a recommendation (obviously others can kick it off but 
the DC has to agree).  The CC then reviews it and agrees to pass it up 
the line and H.Q. also look at it before deciding on the award.  I 
suppose a weak DC might sanction something that a pushy Leader put 
forward where you might feel that the award was not justified.  But I 
would suggest it would do no good making a fuss.  If they haven't really 
earned it they are only fooling themselves and it is best to just leave 
them to it in their false glory.
-- 
Paul Harris

"Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
news:gO2dnThP57Sf6ubVnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "Dave"  wrote in message 
> news:f9-dnUqFy6Qj6ObVnZ2dnUVZ8sTinZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>
>> "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
>> news:XZ-dnZOx6ZMS7ObVnZ2dnUVZ_ovinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Manky Badger" <you.must@be.joking> wrote in message 
>>> news:yM6dnf-pHsTvdu7VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> POR  Rule 11.5 says about the Medal of Merit:
>>>>
>>>> "would normally be awarded after a period of not less than 12 years, 
>>>> but exceptionally after 10 years of outstanding service while holding 
>>>> adult appointments"
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone here got it, or knows of anyone who has it?
>>>>
>>>> What consititutes "outstanding service "
>>>
>>>
>>> Talking (at the moment) totally hypothetically if one feels such an 
>>> award has been made inappropriately, what does one do?
>>> Is there anything to be achelived by stirring it? (If only to somehow 
>>> improve the system for the future)
>>>
>>
>> I would guess that there is absolutely nothing you can do. I would say 
>> there is nothing to gain by stirring it.
>>
>> At the end of the day somebody in the District believes that someone is 
>> worthy and an application is approved by the DC then the CC then who can 
>> you really appeal to.
>>
>
> And what if (again keeping this hypothetical for the moment) the GSL had 
> disapproved of the award and when the DC actually saw who he was giving it 
> to admitted he'd made a mistake........
>

I can only assume here you mean that the DC applied based on their own 
judgement rather than that of the GSL?

I can only also assume that the DC didn't know the person or got the wrong 
person by not knowing them well enough so should have ensured that they did.

How can a DC apply for an award for someone they clearly do not know - I'm 
not suggesting that only people the DC know well but they should be able to 
put a name to the face.

> You're right, there's probably nothing to be acheived after the event....
>
>


Too late - you can barely take it off them saying sorry it was meant for 
someone else. It would have been difficult to not present it either as the 
recipient could well have known about it before hand especially as they 
could have seen it on their online record.

DaveB
West Yorks