On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:34:02 +0100, Julian Bond
 wrote:

>Andrew998  Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:15:22
>>It doesn't make sense to use private transport into a large city with 
>>good public transport
>
>There are no UK cities with good public transport.

What's your definition of good public transport?    

Having visited a number of cities [1] over the last couple of weeks many
of them appeared to have pretty decent looking transport although I
admit I haven't had to sample them day in, day out.

>And anyway we're all rufty tufty bikers here who wouldn't be seen dead 
>on public transport when there's a bike to ride.

I used to bike commute and when you take into account time to start up
the bike, load it up, get changed between bike and work clothes, walking
time from bike bay to office etc I have to say public transport in
London beat the bike hands down.  The other problem was meetings in
other offices which meant a journey back to the usual office in order to
pick up the bike.  No point in riding between offices because there were
no free parking spaces at the destination office and if I needed to go
back to the usual office there's be zero chance of finding a space.  

Although riding the bike was quite a nice way to unwind it was still a
damn slog if the London traffic was particularly snarled up.  It's no
fun to be riding a VFR when it's perpetually at boiling point because
you're at crawling speed filtering through miles of solid traffic.

[1] Newcastle, Newport, Cardiff, Oxford, Reading, Leicester, Nottingham

-- 
Paul C - "the big camp bastard" (tm d.a.r.s.y)
VFR800 | ZX6R | R1150GS 
BOD#5, two#4, BOTAFOT#23, BOTAFOF#4, URMSBC#09, COFF#09
Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield  wrote in 
news:9o05e4pmgcs5hrof71lf0mj1ofkmuvn58m@4ax.com:


> Although riding the bike was quite a nice way to unwind it was still a
> damn slog if the London traffic was particularly snarled up.  It's no
> fun to be riding a VFR when it's perpetually at boiling point because
> you're at crawling speed filtering through miles of solid traffic.
> 

My 750 was horrible in traffic. The fan kicks out the hot air from the 
engine via vents just below your left thigh, causing much discomfort.

> [1] Newcastle, Newport, Cardiff, Oxford, Reading, Leicester, Nottingham
> 

I hope this was work related, rather than your idea of fun...


-- 
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:10:32 +0100, Julian Bond
 wrote:

>Paul Corfield  Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:57:42
>>I used to bike commute and when you take into account time to start up
>>the bike, load it up, get changed between bike and work clothes, walking
>>time from bike bay to office etc I have to say public transport in
>>London beat the bike hands down.
>
>>Although riding the bike was quite a nice way to unwind it was still a
>>damn slog if the London traffic was particularly snarled up.  It's no
>>fun to be riding a VFR when it's perpetually at boiling point because
>>you're at crawling speed filtering through miles of solid traffic.
>
>Then you're using the wrong bike then! I have to say the best bike I've 
>found for a commute into London is a Megascoot like a Burgman 400 with 
>an added top box. It's fast enough to keep up on the dual carriageways 
>outside London while still easy to filter. And the ample luggage space 
>means I can transform from greasy biker into city gent with a laptop bag 
>in under 3 minutes.
>
>>The other problem was meetings in
>>other offices which meant a journey back to the usual office in order to
>>pick up the bike.  No point in riding between offices because there were
>>no free parking spaces at the destination office and if I needed to go
>>back to the usual office there's be zero chance of finding a space.
>
>Yup, this is a problem especially when there's not enough bike parking 
>space. And made worse by Westminster's charging. If we end up with every 
>council having it's own parking scheme its going to be a nightmare if 
>your life involves moving and parking between boroughs during the day.

All those comments are fair enough but I notice there is no definition
from you about what constitutes good public transport which is the whole
basis of your argument that bikes will always be better that such an
option.
-- 
Paul C - "the big camp bastard" (tm d.a.r.s.y)
VFR800 | ZX6R | R1150GS 
BOD#5, two#4, BOTAFOT#23, BOTAFOF#4, URMSBC#09, COFF#09
Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:10:40 +0100, totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk (The
Older Gentleman) wrote:

>Paul Corfield  wrote:
>
>>  I have to say public transport in
>> London beat the bike hands down.  
>
>You don't have to pay for it, though.

True but I very, very much doubt that if I had to pay my conclusion
would be any different.  I know it is fashionable to moan like hell
about public transport but most of the time my journeys are perfectly
reliable and timely.
-- 
Paul C - "the big camp bastard" (tm d.a.r.s.y)
VFR800 | ZX6R | R1150GS 
BOD#5, two#4, BOTAFOT#23, BOTAFOF#4, URMSBC#09, COFF#09
Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:10:40 +0100, totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk (The
> Older Gentleman) wrote:
> 
>> Paul Corfield  wrote:
>>
>>>  I have to say public transport in
>>> London beat the bike hands down.  
>> You don't have to pay for it, though.
> 
> True but I very, very much doubt that if I had to pay my conclusion
> would be any different.  I know it is fashionable to moan like hell
> about public transport but most of the time my journeys are perfectly
> reliable and timely.

Public transport in London is definitely quicker, it just isn't as 
convenient.

-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Julian Bond wrote:
> 
> In my darker moments, I've thought that if I have a M/C with me I'll
> still be able to get out of the city when the axe falls, the reds
> decide to push the button, the Thames barrier breaks down or there's
> an outbreak of Zombies. But that's just ridiculous paranoia from
> watching too many bad SciFi movies.

Or there's a bus or tube strike.

On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:11:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
 squeezed out the following:

>All those comments are fair enough but I notice there is no definition
>from you about what constitutes good public transport which is the whole
>basis of your argument that bikes will always be better that such an
>option.

Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
transport.

-- 
Colin Irvine
ZZR1400 BOF#33 BONY#34 COFF#06 BHaLC#5
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

In article ,
 Colin Irvine  wrote:

> On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:11:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
>  squeezed out the following:
> 
> >All those comments are fair enough but I notice there is no definition
> >from you about what constitutes good public transport which is the whole
> >basis of your argument that bikes will always be better that such an
> >option.
> 
> Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
> Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
> Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
> door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
> transport.

281 miles according to google maps, or an average of 56.2 miles per 
hour, and you call that 'good' ?

By contrast, Paris to Lyon is =~ 290 miles, and it takes one hour and 
fifty-seven minutes by train.  Roughly 145 miles per hour on average.  

_That_ is 'pretty good public transport'.

But don't worry, you 'don't read' me, and so won't see this.  Just slag 
off the Jews a bit more, and pretend that all is well.

D.
-- 
des | 'what does it matter what he posts?'
http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/index.html
end the 'occupation': http://minilien.fr/a0k8xe
ukrm: 'where it's "cool" to be stupid!'

jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 1 Oct, 12:56, Whinging Courier
>  wrote:
>> Paul Corfield wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:10:40 +0100, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The
>>> Older Gentleman) wrote:
>>>> Paul Corfield  wrote:
>>>>>  I have to say public transport in
>>>>> London beat the bike hands down.  
>>>> You don't have to pay for it, though.
>>> True but I very, very much doubt that if I had to pay my conclusion
>>> would be any different.  I know it is fashionable to moan like hell
>>> about public transport but most of the time my journeys are perfectly
>>> reliable and timely.
>> Public transport in London is definitely quicker, it just isn't as
>> convenient.
> 
> I found it overcrowded the last few times I had the misfortune to need
> to use it.

Indeed. I only use it out of hours, i.e. after 9.30am because it's a lot 
less crowded and after 10 it's almost roomy! It's good for places that 
have no parking nearby or want £1 for each ten or fifteen minutes and by 
Oyster it's a lot cheaper but then I do live here so suffer it when I 
have to.

> In the end I started getting a mainline train to the station nearest
> to where I was going for the day, and just walked the rest of the way
> rather than struggling onto an overcrowded tube.
> 
> If you do this, you soon realise the main bits of Central London
> aren't really that far apart at all, and I started to actually quite
> enjoy the walk.

It's normally only about a ten minute walk between tube stations.

Walking's good and has may benefits. I've even bought myself a 
waterproof coat and a brolly so I can go to the local supermarkets 
without driving. It's also a good flashers' mac.


-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

In article ,
 Whinging Courier  wrote:

> > If you do this, you soon realise the main bits of Central London
> > aren't really that far apart at all, and I started to actually quite
> > enjoy the walk.
> 
> It's normally only about a ten minute walk between tube stations.

One of the good things about here (sort of offsetting the instauration 
of a police state and the proliferation of Arabs), is that one is rarely 
more than two hundred metres from a métro stop.  That, plus a yearly 
season ticket (£53.08 per month for 3 zones, half of which is refunded 
by the Ministry of Education) [1] means that one can hop on and off the 
métro, buses whatever, and one just presses the pass onto the top of the 
turnstile.

Thank fuck that all other things considered, we still have a green mayor 
who sticks the occasional spanner in the works of the disgusting pigshit 
in the Élysée Palace.

Y.

[1] http://coughlan.fr/integrale.jpg
-- 
des | 'what does it matter what he posts?'
http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/index.html
end the 'occupation': http://minilien.fr/a0k8xe
ukrm: 'where it's "cool" to be stupid!'

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:08:22 -0700 (PDT), "TOG@Toil"
 squeezed out the following:

>On 1 Oct, 14:09, Colin Irvine  wrote:
>
>>
>> Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
>> Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
>> Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
>> door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
>> transport.
>>
>I'd disagree. That's £270 for a return trip.

For two of us - £135 each.

>OK, it's relatively fast,
>but I've just paid under £100 for a return British Airways flight to
>Barcelona, FFS.

I don't fly if I can help it.

>Or you could have bought a car for £150-200, spent the balance on
>petrol, and sold it for scrap when (if?) you got home...

Big "if"! Plus that process would take a lot longer than 5 hours.

-- 
Colin Irvine
ZZR1400 BOF#33 BONY#34 COFF#06 BHaLC#5
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

"TOG@Toil"  writes:

> On 1 Oct, 14:09, Colin Irvine  wrote:
>
>>
>> Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
>> Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
>> Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
>> door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
>> transport.
>>
> I'd disagree. That's £270 for a return trip. OK, it's relatively fast,
> but I've just paid under £100 for a return British Airways flight to
> Barcelona, FFS.
>
> Or you could have bought a car for £150-200, spent the balance on
> petrol, and sold it for scrap when (if?) you got home...

Depends if they bought the car from me, I guess...

> Trouble is that rail fares vary *hugely* according to time of day,
> dates, phases of the moon, whatever.

Indeed, and when you have to keep stuff in mind that it would be
considerably cheaper if you bought a ticket to X if you're going to Y
and then by another ticket in X that actually gets you from X to Y
because the combined ticket is noticeably more expensive, something's
fucked.

-- 
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD                       BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar

On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:15:11 +0100, Timo Geusch
 squeezed out the following:

>"TOG@Toil"  writes:
>
>> On 1 Oct, 14:09, Colin Irvine  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
>>> Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
>>> Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
>>> door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
>>> transport.
>>>
>> I'd disagree. That's £270 for a return trip. OK, it's relatively fast,
>> but I've just paid under £100 for a return British Airways flight to
>> Barcelona, FFS.
>>
>> Or you could have bought a car for £150-200, spent the balance on
>> petrol, and sold it for scrap when (if?) you got home...
>
>Depends if they bought the car from me, I guess...
>
>> Trouble is that rail fares vary *hugely* according to time of day,
>> dates, phases of the moon, whatever.
>
>Indeed, and when you have to keep stuff in mind that it would be
>considerably cheaper if you bought a ticket to X if you're going to Y
>and then by another ticket in X that actually gets you from X to Y
>because the combined ticket is noticeably more expensive, something's
>fucked.

Yeah, you're both right. And it can take ages to go a short distance
if the services don't match where you want to go. But I have to say we
use public transport quite a lot now, and it's certainly good much of
the time.

-- 
Colin Irvine
ZZR1400 BOF#33 BONY#34 COFF#06 BHaLC#5
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

TOG@Toil wrote:
> > Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
> > Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
> > Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
> > door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
> > transport.
>  ...
> 
>  Trouble is that rail fares vary *hugely* according to time of day,
>  dates, phases of the moon, whatever.

and, as colin already pointed out, he only got such an astoundingly low
price on account of being a gimmer.
-- 
dog
rsv1000rf sl1000 two#5 pwcram#3

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:51:23 -0700 (PDT), "TOG@Toil"
 squeezed out the following:

>On 1 Oct, 15:24, dog  wrote:
>> TOG@Toil wrote:
>> > > Just out of interest we travelled from Greenwich to Washington on
>> > > Sunday. Not that expensive (£135 each way for the two of us) using
>> > > Oyster card, Elderly Rail Card and free Metro and bus up here. Door to
>> > > door took a fraction over 5 hours. I call that pretty good public
>> > > transport.
>> >  ...
>>
>> >  Trouble is that rail fares vary *hugely* according to time of day,
>> >  dates, phases of the moon, whatever.
>>
>> and, as colin already pointed out, he only got such an astoundingly low
>> price on account of being a gimmer.
>
><Smarmy mode>
>
>Of course, Pat is many years away from so qualifying...
>
></sm>

Heh. She qualified a year before me.

-- 
Colin Irvine
ZZR1400 BOF#33 BONY#34 COFF#06 BHaLC#5
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:10:55 +0100, Julian Bond
 wrote:

>In my darker moments, I've thought that if I have a M/C with me I'll 
>still be able to get out of the city when the axe falls, the reds decide 
>to push the button, the Thames barrier breaks down or there's an 
>outbreak of Zombies. But that's just ridiculous paranoia from watching 
>too many bad SciFi movies.

heh.  

When I was first into bikes, the cold war was moderately warm (1980).
As I lived about 5 miles from GCHQ, which would a) be a first strike
target and b) had a dead straight 3 mile dual carriageway leading from
it, I used to say that on the four minute warning I'd get half way
along the cariageway, with my back to GCHQ, and wait for the blast
shock to accelerate me into oblivion.
-- 
Champ

Two standard issue crutches
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

Champ  wrote in message
:

>When I was first into bikes, the cold war was moderately warm (1980).
>As I lived about 5 miles from GCHQ, which would a) be a first strike
>target and b) had a dead straight 3 mile dual carriageway leading from
>it, I used to say that on the four minute warning I'd get half way
>along the cariageway, with my back to GCHQ, and wait for the blast
>shock to accelerate me into oblivion.

Excellent bit of imagery there.  Sort of reminds me of Space Ritual.
-- 
K75RT, K1100LT, ZXR750H1, 5TA, K100/ST2

Z500/Velorex chair for sale shortly...

deadmail wrote:
>
> Champ wrote:
>> 
>>When I was first into bikes, the cold war was moderately warm (1980).
>>As I lived about 5 miles from GCHQ, which would a) be a first strike
>>target and b) had a dead straight 3 mile dual carriageway leading from
>>it, I used to say that on the four minute warning I'd get half way
>>along the cariageway, with my back to GCHQ, and wait for the blast
>>shock to accelerate me into oblivion.
> 
> Excellent bit of imagery there.  Sort of reminds me of Space Ritual.

Darkstar

-- 
Alex
BMW R1150GS
DIAABTCOD#3  MSWF#4  UKRMFBC#6  Ibw#35  BOB#8
Windy's "little soldier"

Alex Ferrier wrote:
> deadmail wrote:
>>
>> Champ wrote:
>>>
>>> When I was first into bikes, the cold war was moderately warm
>>> (1980). As I lived about 5 miles from GCHQ, which would a) be a
>>> first strike target and b) had a dead straight 3 mile dual
>>> carriageway leading from it, I used to say that on the four minute
>>> warning I'd get half way along the cariageway, with my back to
>>> GCHQ, and wait for the blast shock to accelerate me into oblivion.
>>
>> Excellent bit of imagery there.  Sort of reminds me of Space Ritual.
>
> Darkstar

The re-entry scene was nicked from a Ray Bradbury story (Kaleidoscope).  I 
remember the first time I saw the film, going "Hey!  That's from..."

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:26:11 +0100, Julian Bond
 wrote:

>deadmail@burnt.org.uk Wed, 1 Oct 2008 23:19:50
>> Champ  wrote in message
>>:
>>
>>>When I was first into bikes, the cold war was moderately warm (1980).
>>>As I lived about 5 miles from GCHQ, which would a) be a first strike
>>>target and b) had a dead straight 3 mile dual carriageway leading from
>>>it, I used to say that on the four minute warning I'd get half way
>>>along the cariageway, with my back to GCHQ, and wait for the blast
>>>shock to accelerate me into oblivion.
>>
>>Excellent bit of imagery there.  Sort of reminds me of Space Ritual.
>
>So you want to fly Starfighters, huh?

heh
-- 
Champ

Two standard issue crutches
To email me, neal at my domain should work.

des wrote:
> In article ,
>  Whinging Courier  wrote:
> 
> > > If you do this, you soon realise the main bits of Central London
> > > aren't really that far apart at all, and I started to actually quite
> > > enjoy the walk.
> > 
> > It's normally only about a ten minute walk between tube stations.
> 
> One of the good things about here (sort of offsetting the instauration 
> of a police state and the proliferation of Arabs), is that one is rarely 
> more than two hundred metres from a métro stop.  That, plus a yearly 
> season ticket (£53.08 per month for 3 zones, half of which is refunded 
> by the Ministry of Education) [1] means that one can hop on and off the 
> métro, buses whatever, and one just presses the pass onto the top of the 
> turnstile.

My zone 1-3 travelcard sets me back about 95 quid a month (amortised) 
and does pretty much the same thing. I can usually get a seat in the 
morning and always get one in the evening. Delays are pretty rare and 
there are multiple routes I can take in the event of something going 
seriously screwy.

Public transport in London is fine. As to the overcrowding, there are 
10 million people in this town, of course it's bloody overcrowded!

-- 
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22

Julian Bond wrote:
> Paul Corfield  Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:57:42
> >I used to bike commute and when you take into account time to start up
> >the bike, load it up, get changed between bike and work clothes, walking
> >time from bike bay to office etc I have to say public transport in
> >London beat the bike hands down.
> 
> >Although riding the bike was quite a nice way to unwind it was still a
> >damn slog if the London traffic was particularly snarled up.  It's no
> >fun to be riding a VFR when it's perpetually at boiling point because
> >you're at crawling speed filtering through miles of solid traffic.
> 
> Then you're using the wrong bike then! 

Quite. Even my RGV makes a reasonably pleasant commuter. The GSXR runs 
hotter than a thousand suns but if you don't mind the sound of the fan 
it's quite an enjoyable way to pass a commute.

Half the door-to-door journey time compared to taking the tube, and I 
wear pretty much the same clothes whichever method I use so no time 
lost there either.

-- 
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22

In article ,
 ogden  wrote:

> des wrote:
> > In article ,
> >  Whinging Courier  wrote:
> > 
> > > > If you do this, you soon realise the main bits of Central London
> > > > aren't really that far apart at all, and I started to actually quite
> > > > enjoy the walk.
> > > 
> > > It's normally only about a ten minute walk between tube stations.
> > 
> > One of the good things about here (sort of offsetting the instauration 
> > of a police state and the proliferation of Arabs), is that one is rarely 
> > more than two hundred metres from a métro stop.  That, plus a yearly 
> > season ticket (£53.08 per month for 3 zones, half of which is refunded 
> > by the Ministry of Education) [1] means that one can hop on and off the 
> > métro, buses whatever, and one just presses the pass onto the top of the 
> > turnstile.
> 
> My zone 1-3 travelcard sets me back about 95 quid a month (amortised) 
> and does pretty much the same thing. I can usually get a seat in the 
> morning and always get one in the evening. Delays are pretty rare and 
> there are multiple routes I can take in the event of something going 
> seriously screwy.
> 
> Public transport in London is fine. As to the overcrowding, there are 
> 10 million people in this town, of course it's bloody overcrowded!

Oh, I wasn't knocking London.  I really should get up there at some 
point (aside from 'just passing through, as I will be in three weeks, en 
route for Jimmyland).  It's been .. <fx: thinks... >, fuck it's been 
twelve years since my last real visit.  

Fucking hell.  Getting old _sucks_.

D.
-- 
des | 'what does it matter what he posts?'
http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/index.html
end the 'occupation': http://minilien.fr/a0k8xe
ukrm: 'where it's "cool" to be stupid!'

In article ,
 ogden  wrote:

> des wrote:
> > In article ,
> >  Whinging Courier  wrote:
> > 
> > > > If you do this, you soon realise the main bits of Central London
> > > > aren't really that far apart at all, and I started to actually quite
> > > > enjoy the walk.
> > > 
> > > It's normally only about a ten minute walk between tube stations.
> > 
> > One of the good things about here (sort of offsetting the instauration 
> > of a police state and the proliferation of Arabs), is that one is rarely 
> > more than two hundred metres from a métro stop.  That, plus a yearly 
> > season ticket (£53.08 per month for 3 zones, half of which is refunded 
> > by the Ministry of Education) [1] means that one can hop on and off the 
> > métro, buses whatever, and one just presses the pass onto the top of the 
> > turnstile.
> 
> My zone 1-3 travelcard sets me back about 95 quid a month (amortised) 
> and does pretty much the same thing. I can usually get a seat in the 
> morning and always get one in the evening. Delays are pretty rare and 
> there are multiple routes I can take in the event of something going 
> seriously screwy.
> 
> Public transport in London is fine. As to the overcrowding, there are 
> 10 million people in this town, of course it's bloody overcrowded!

Oh, I wasn't knocking London.  I ought to get up there at some point, 
since Eurostar is so (relatively) cheap nowadays.  It's been ... <fx: 
counts...>, fuck me, it's been twelve years since I've been in London 
(other than passing through at Waterloo or Heathrow).

Getting old fucking sucks.

D.
-- 
des | 'what does it matter what he posts?'
http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/index.html
end the 'occupation': http://minilien.fr/a0k8xe
ukrm: 'where it's "cool" to be stupid!'