Greetings,

  I now have occasion to buy shitloads of Alkaline AA Duracell type 
batteries and it's costing a small bleedin' fortune. I could just go out 
and buy a battery charger and a load of Ni-MH but these, although 
cheaper in the long run, only put out 1.2v which is a bit shit when your 
  appliance takes twelve(!) of the fuckers. Now, I know there's chargers 
out there now that claim to recharge non-rechargeable batteries but 
which ones are best an which ones charge to 1.5v or as close as possible 
and how long do they last once charged? I know you can only recharge 
then 10 times or so but I don't mind that if the voltage and amperage is 
ok. I've Googled which is ok but not having used anything like this 
before it's not easy to tell truth from marketing hype and bollocks.

Anyone?
-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Whinging Courier wrote:
> 
>  I now have occasion to buy shitloads of Alkaline AA Duracell type 
> batteries and it's costing a small bleedin' fortune. I could just go out 
> and buy a battery charger and a load of Ni-MH but these, although 
> cheaper in the long run, only put out 1.2v which is a bit shit when your 
>  appliance takes twelve(!) of the fuckers. Now, I know there's chargers 
> out there now that claim to recharge non-rechargeable batteries but 
> which ones are best an which ones charge to 1.5v or as close as possible 
> and how long do they last once charged? I know you can only recharge 
> then 10 times or so but I don't mind that if the voltage and amperage is 
> ok. I've Googled which is ok but not having used anything like this 
> before it's not easy to tell truth from marketing hype and bollocks.
> 
> Anyone?

The fact that NiMH batteries only put out 1.2V shouldn't make a 
difference in most applications. They'll put out close to 1.2V whether 
they're under load or not, and maintain this as they're depleted, as 
they have a very low internal resistance.

Alkaline batteries will show ~1.5V when tested without a load, but their 
higher internal resistance will mean that in use their output is likely 
to be significantly less.

Also, decent rechargeables are likely to have a higher capacity than any 
but the most expensive non-rechargeables, and be able to deliver a 
higher current.

In short: unless you're trying to use something that's particularly 
voltage-sensitive, you'll be better off using decent rechargeables.

-- 
Eddie                                                eddie@deguello.org

His: ZX-9R, Elefant 900                   http://www.last.fm/group/ukrm
Hers: Monster S4R, GSX600F (breaking, everything must go!)

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:22:36 +0100, Whinging Courier
 wrote:
 
>Now, I know there's chargers 
>out there now that claim to recharge non-rechargeable batteries but 
>which ones are best an which ones charge to 1.5v or as close as possible 
>and how long do they last once charged? 

I've used one of these, from the "Innovations" cataloge, for many
years now, with some success. They tend to be called "reconditioners"
rather than chargers, and they certainly don't "recharge" like you
might want.

But wht they do is make batteries more or less re-useable, depending
on drainage patterns, age and god-knows-what else. Typically, a
low-drain AA battery in more-or-less constant use for several months
will regain up to 80% of its original capacity on first recharge, then
perhaps 70, 60 and down. Sometimes they just won't recharge at all,
sometimes they only get a very small amount of their original capacity
back.

There's a display for each cell that tells you all this, so you can
see how good a recharged one's going to be and whgen to throw it away.

>I know you can only recharge 
>then 10 times or so but I don't mind that if the voltage and amperage is 
>ok. 

10 time might be optimistic - certainly two or three is normal but
beyond that a high proportion either won't charge or will only get a
very low capacity. Voltage is fine. 'Amperage' I dunno what you mean,
but they've always seemed to perform just as well as the originals,
barring their state of charge.


IME they're about as good for re-usability as many older NiCads were,
with generally longer charge-life, but since decent-capacity NiMh ones
have become available and affordable I really CBA any more, too much
hassle trying to work out which ones are any good, leaving them on too
long (they take _hours_ to charge) and boiling them, etc. etc. etc.

-- 
  _______
.'_/_|_\_'.  Ace (b.rogers at ifrance.com)
\`\  |  /`/  
 `\\ | //'   BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
   `\|/`
     `

Eddie wrote:
> Whinging Courier wrote:
>>  I now have occasion to buy shitloads of Alkaline AA Duracell type 
>> batteries and it's costing a small bleedin' fortune. I could just go out 
>> and buy a battery charger and a load of Ni-MH but these, although 
>> cheaper in the long run, only put out 1.2v which is a bit shit when your 
>>  appliance takes twelve(!) of the fuckers. Now, I know there's chargers 
>> out there now that claim to recharge non-rechargeable batteries but 
>> which ones are best an which ones charge to 1.5v or as close as possible 
>> and how long do they last once charged? I know you can only recharge 
>> then 10 times or so but I don't mind that if the voltage and amperage is 
>> ok. I've Googled which is ok but not having used anything like this 
>> before it's not easy to tell truth from marketing hype and bollocks.
>>
>> Anyone?
> 
> The fact that NiMH batteries only put out 1.2V shouldn't make a 
> difference in most applications. They'll put out close to 1.2V whether 
> they're under load or not, and maintain this as they're depleted, as 
> they have a very low internal resistance.
> 
> Alkaline batteries will show ~1.5V when tested without a load, but their 
> higher internal resistance will mean that in use their output is likely 
> to be significantly less.
> 
> Also, decent rechargeables are likely to have a higher capacity than any 
> but the most expensive non-rechargeables, and be able to deliver a 
> higher current.
> 
> In short: unless you're trying to use something that's particularly 
> voltage-sensitive, you'll be better off using decent rechargeables.

The latest rash of 2700mAh batts look just the ticket. What you say 
about 1.2v V 1.5v under and not under load is interesting. Ideally what 
I want is full capacity for as long as possible without the batteries 
suddenly crashing, *some* warning would be good.

I'll be using them for R/C radios and receivers and obviously I don't 
want the receiver battery suddenly going kaputski when my car's doing 
50mph+ in the wrong direction[1] and now way to run fast enough to stop 
catastrophic damage[2] but don't want them to run out so slowly that 
they become unresponsive way before they're actually dead, iyswim.

[1] I have a failsafe but this only works if the signal is 
lost/interrupted/interfered with from the transmitter.

[2] Has happened recently. Wrote the front of the car off.



-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Ace wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:22:36 +0100, Whinging Courier
>  wrote:
>  
>> Now, I know there's chargers 
>> out there now that claim to recharge non-rechargeable batteries but 
>> which ones are best an which ones charge to 1.5v or as close as possible 
>> and how long do they last once charged? 
> 
> I've used one of these, from the "Innovations" cataloge, for many
> years now, with some success. They tend to be called "reconditioners"
> rather than chargers, and they certainly don't "recharge" like you
> might want.
> 
> But wht they do is make batteries more or less re-useable, depending
> on drainage patterns, age and god-knows-what else. Typically, a
> low-drain AA battery in more-or-less constant use for several months
> will regain up to 80% of its original capacity on first recharge, then
> perhaps 70, 60 and down. Sometimes they just won't recharge at all,
> sometimes they only get a very small amount of their original capacity
> back.
> 
> There's a display for each cell that tells you all this, so you can
> see how good a recharged one's going to be and whgen to throw it away.
> 
>> I know you can only recharge 
>> then 10 times or so but I don't mind that if the voltage and amperage is 
>> ok. 
> 
> 10 time might be optimistic - certainly two or three is normal but
> beyond that a high proportion either won't charge or will only get a
> very low capacity. Voltage is fine. 'Amperage' I dunno what you mean,
> but they've always seemed to perform just as well as the originals,
> barring their state of charge.
> 
> 
> IME they're about as good for re-usability as many older NiCads were,
> with generally longer charge-life, but since decent-capacity NiMh ones
> have become available and affordable I really CBA any more, too much
> hassle trying to work out which ones are any good, leaving them on too
> long (they take _hours_ to charge) and boiling them, etc. etc. etc.

Right, that's it then. I don't want to re-use alkalines, etc. Proper 
rechargable are in order.

Thnaks :)



-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Whinging Courier wrote:

> I'll be using them for R/C radios and receivers and obviously I don't
> want the receiver battery suddenly going kaputski when my car's doing
> 50mph+ in the wrong direction[1] and now way to run fast enough to
> stop catastrophic damage[2] but don't want them to run out so slowly
> that they become unresponsive way before they're actually dead,
> iyswim.
> 
> [1] I have a failsafe but this only works if the signal is
> lost/interrupted/interfered with from the transmitter.
> 
> [2] Has happened recently. Wrote the front of the car off.

I raced at National level and was Head Referee for the BRCA 1/10th
off-road National Championships for many years ... _Everyone_ including
the World Champion, uses rechargeables.  Simply not worth using
Alkalines, proper rechargeables (decent ones) are absolutely what you
need, and a good charger.

Mind, we only run five minute races ...  but my Transmitter (KO Vantage
Tye R) has had the same batteries in it for a year with only two
recharges.

If you're also using them for the receiver, (Nitro cars mostly) then
their life-span _should_ be about the same or better, for various
values of ... ;)

If (when) you get anal about it, keep a log of times of battery use to
get a pattern so you know to a level; of uncertainty, how long you
should have left in your cellpacks.

-- 
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'
ebay stuff   140263469749

Whinging Courier wrote:
> 
> The latest rash of 2700mAh batts look just the ticket. What you say 
> about 1.2v V 1.5v under and not under load is interesting. Ideally what 
> I want is full capacity for as long as possible without the batteries 
> suddenly crashing, *some* warning would be good.

Given your intended use, I can't imagine what sort of warning you'd be 
likely to get.

Also, NiMH batteries are much more tolerant of repeated partial 
discharge/charge cycles than were older rechargeables, without the 
memory effects and loss of effective capacity. IIRC, the recommendation 
is to cycle them completely (i.e. full charge, full discharge) the first 
few times, after that you should be able to sling them in the charger 
whenever you feel like it (e.g. after every use).

-- 
Eddie                                                eddie@deguello.org

His: ZX-9R, Elefant 900                   http://www.last.fm/group/ukrm
Hers: Monster S4R, GSX600F (breaking, everything must go!)

Paul - xxx wrote:
> Whinging Courier wrote:
> 
>> I'll be using them for R/C radios and receivers and obviously I don't
>> want the receiver battery suddenly going kaputski when my car's doing
>> 50mph+ in the wrong direction[1] and now way to run fast enough to
>> stop catastrophic damage[2] but don't want them to run out so slowly
>> that they become unresponsive way before they're actually dead,
>> iyswim.
>>
>> [1] I have a failsafe but this only works if the signal is
>> lost/interrupted/interfered with from the transmitter.
>>
>> [2] Has happened recently. Wrote the front of the car off.
> 
> I raced at National level and was Head Referee for the BRCA 1/10th
> off-road National Championships for many years ... _Everyone_ including
> the World Champion, uses rechargeables.  Simply not worth using
> Alkalines, proper rechargeables (decent ones) are absolutely what you
> need, and a good charger.

I was in Sainbury's yesterday and saw a Duracell fast (1 hour) charger 
with four 2300mAh batteries. I don't suppose there's much difference 
between these and the 2700mAh pack that were next to it (but no 
charger). Not bad at 6 quid a pack either, I thought.

> Mind, we only run five minute races ...  but my Transmitter (KO Vantage
> Tye R) has had the same batteries in it for a year with only two
> recharges.

Same as that. I just got an Acoms thing secondhand with some cheap 
non-brand batteries in and I've not needed to replace them yet. Been 
using them for a few hours, too.

> If you're also using them for the receiver, (Nitro cars mostly) then
> their life-span _should_ be about the same or better, for various
> values of ... ;)

Well, (and yes, I'm using a .21 Force nitro) I've had to change brand 
new good quality alkaline batteries twice and still have the cheapo ones 
in the radio so I'm not sure how you came by that ;-)

> If (when) you get anal about it, keep a log of times of battery use to
> get a pattern so you know to a level; of uncertainty, how long you
> should have left in your cellpacks.

Who needs to get anal, that's all just part of the fun ;-)

-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Eddie wrote:
> Whinging Courier wrote:
>> The latest rash of 2700mAh batts look just the ticket. What you say 
>> about 1.2v V 1.5v under and not under load is interesting. Ideally what 
>> I want is full capacity for as long as possible without the batteries 
>> suddenly crashing, *some* warning would be good.
> 
> Given your intended use, I can't imagine what sort of warning you'd be 
> likely to get.
> 
> Also, NiMH batteries are much more tolerant of repeated partial 
> discharge/charge cycles than were older rechargeables, without the 
> memory effects and loss of effective capacity. IIRC, the recommendation 
> is to cycle them completely (i.e. full charge, full discharge) the first 
> few times, after that you should be able to sling them in the charger 
> whenever you feel like it (e.g. after every use).

Right, so I need a charger/discharger then because putting them in a 
clock when I've finished with them will take years! ;-)

I'd want t cycle them every now and again anyway, that's just something 
else to look out for (the discharger bit):)



-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Whinging Courier wrote:
> Eddie wrote:
>>
>> Also, NiMH batteries are much more tolerant of repeated partial 
>> discharge/charge cycles than were older rechargeables, without the 
>> memory effects and loss of effective capacity. IIRC, the 
>> recommendation is to cycle them completely (i.e. full charge, full 
>> discharge) the first few times, after that you should be able to sling 
>> them in the charger whenever you feel like it (e.g. after every use).
> 
> Right, so I need a charger/discharger then because putting them in a 
> clock when I've finished with them will take years! ;-)

Stuff 'em in a torch, or a digital camera with a discharge facility. Or 
you could be really pikey and improvise something with some tape, a 
piece of wire, and an appropriately-rated bulb.

-- 
Eddie                                                eddie@deguello.org

His: ZX-9R, Elefant 900                   http://www.last.fm/group/ukrm
Hers: Monster S4R, GSX600F (breaking, everything must go!)

Eddie wrote:
> Whinging Courier wrote:
>> Eddie wrote:
>>> Also, NiMH batteries are much more tolerant of repeated partial 
>>> discharge/charge cycles than were older rechargeables, without the 
>>> memory effects and loss of effective capacity. IIRC, the 
>>> recommendation is to cycle them completely (i.e. full charge, full 
>>> discharge) the first few times, after that you should be able to sling 
>>> them in the charger whenever you feel like it (e.g. after every use).
>> Right, so I need a charger/discharger then because putting them in a 
>> clock when I've finished with them will take years! ;-)
> 
> Stuff 'em in a torch, or a digital camera with a discharge facility.

Good idea.

> Or 
> you could be really pikey and improvise something with some tape, a 
> piece of wire, and an appropriately-rated bulb.

The torch idea was better and as I have one that takes AAs, I'll use that.

Muchas grassy-arse :)


-- 
FZ1-N GS650GT Go-Ped Sport
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3

Eddie wrote:

> Whinging Courier wrote:
> > Eddie wrote:
> > > 
> > > Also, NiMH batteries are much more tolerant of repeated partial
> > > discharge/charge cycles than were older rechargeables, without
> > > the  memory effects and loss of effective capacity. IIRC, the
> > > recommendation is to cycle them completely (i.e. full charge,
> > > full  discharge) the first few times, after that you should be
> > > able to sling  them in the charger whenever you feel like it
> > > (e.g. after every use).
> > 
> > Right, so I need a charger/discharger then because putting them in
> > a  clock when I've finished with them will take years! ;-)
> 
> Stuff 'em in a torch, or a digital camera with a discharge facility.
> Or you could be really pikey and improvise something with some tape,
> a piece of wire, and an appropriately-rated bulb.

The dry cell batteries I used to look after for Danny's RGV race bike
were discharged by plugging them into a 55W halogen headlight bulb in
the workshop, and at the circuit I discharged them by plugging them
into the van's nearside headlight. All I had to do was make a patch
lead with a 3-pin headlight connector block one end and a battery
connector on the other.

-- 
Lozzo
SV650S K5, CBR600F-W, SR250 SpazzTrakka
and a shit load more 2-wheeled junk in the garage
I believe in free speech, but I still have to pay my phone bill

Whinging Courier wrote:

> Paul - xxx wrote:

> > If you're also using them for the receiver, (Nitro cars mostly) then
> > their life-span should be about the same or better, for various
> > values of ... ;)
> 
> Well, (and yes, I'm using a .21 Force nitro) I've had to change brand
> new good quality alkaline batteries twice and still have the cheapo
> ones in the radio so I'm not sure how you came by that ;-)

Dunno either ... ;)  Thinking further, and somewhat aloud, there's
normally eight cells in the tranny and four in the reciever, and the
receiver packs do take more battery drain as they're also powering the
servos on a Nitro.  I'd guess that as we raced we took note, mentally
mostly, of how long we run cellpacks and changed them either when one
set died or when we thought they were about to die, so my statement
that they lasted just as long is probably wrong, it's just that we
would tend to replace/charge them at the same time ... which, being
rechargeable, isn't much of a problem.  I had something like four
receiver cellpacks back when I raced Nitro ...
;)

I'd guess that a properly charged set of receiver cells for a Nitro
should last a racer a full day ... which can be maybe two hours of
full-on racing over the day, and that most packs nowadays can last all
weekend including extra 'testing' overnight, so up to about 6 hours a
cellpack.

Indeed, 8th scale Nitro racing can have 20 minute heats and 45 minute
finals, so cell packs need to last a lot longer than this for safety.

-- 
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'
ebay stuff   140263469749

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:50:08 +0100, Whinging Courier
 wrote:


>I'll be using them for R/C radios and receivers and obviously I don't 
>want the receiver battery suddenly going kaputski when my car's doing 
>50mph+ in the wrong direction[1] and now way to run fast enough to stop 
>catastrophic damage[2] but don't want them to run out so slowly that 
>they become unresponsive way before they're actually dead, iyswim.

What Paul said and once you have some decent cells in place you need
to get to know what constitutes a safe run time.

From a voltage pov you can replace (say) 4 x 1.5V Alkaline's with 5 x
1.2V NiMH. Any decent model shop will sell you tagged (to allow you to
make up your own packs) or untagged *quality* cells (Sanyo etc, often
a very different beast to what you will buy from Argos etc).

When I was racing 10th scale cars that used receiver batteries I would
know a battery pack would last a whole race day, but as Paul mentioned
that was a pretty predictable run time (n x 5 min heats, semi's, final
etc). When racing the RC Lasers (RC sailing boats) we can be on the
water for nearly the whole day so the TX and RX batteries would have
to last the day, or you would carry a duplicate set or rapid charger
(for a top up during the breaks etc).

I used to charge all the batteries overnight with an occasional full
discharge / recharge to keep the cells active.
>
>[2] Has happened recently. Wrote the front of the car off.


Ouch. [1] :-(

All the best ..

T i m

[1] An RC yacht generally just goes round in circles in that instance.
;-)

In article , Eddie
 writes
>
>In short: unless you're trying to use something that's particularly 
>voltage-sensitive, you'll be better off using decent rechargeables.

Not just voltage sensitive.  The technology is improving rapidly but
NiMH are still better as voltage rather than current sources and if you
are driving servos you are doing work which means you need current. 

Having said that the electric RC flyers seem quite happy to use NiMH on
their models.

On the matter of running out then you do have problems as all of the
rechargeable technologies provide a battery which simply crashes when
empty.  So take two sets and change half way through.

Worth noting that in the world of RC pylon racing the very top of the
tree use sets of highly matched batteries and the really top blokes will
dump them after every race, effectively using them as non rechargeables.
Winning it seems is much more important than the cost of the batteries.



-- 
steve auvache
A Bloo one with built in safety features