As was rather obvious from the previous discussion regarding the 
subject, that some drivers who've done this particular module actually 
did not have acceleration sense or did not know which gear to be in.

So, my question is advanced driving only for those who are not up to 
the mark?

Redline wrote:
> As was rather obvious from the previous discussion regarding the
> subject, that some drivers who've done this particular module actually
> did not have acceleration sense or did not know which gear to be in.
>
> So, my question is advanced driving only for those who are not up to
> the mark?

So called advanced driving is for everyone to learn and implement. If they 
did then there would be less aggro on the roads and fewer collisions.

"Redline"  wrote in message 
news:mn.55327d88fd4d23f3.90824@privacy.com...
> As was rather obvious from the previous discussion regarding the subject, 
> that some drivers who've done this particular module actually did not have 
> acceleration sense or did not know which gear to be in.
>
> So, my question is advanced driving only for those who are not up to the 
> mark?

What mark?
-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

MrBitsy brought next idea :

> What mark?

up to scratch..
up to par...
up to speed...

Still feeling clueless? ;-)

On 10 Aug, 22:10, Redline  wrote:

> So, my question is advanced driving only for those who are not up to
> the mark?

It seems to attract two main types:

1) Those who are nervous about driving, probably because they aren't
very good at it, and want more instruction. For the rest of us, this
is a Good Thing.

2) Asperger's sorts, who like to work semi-obsessively within rules
and systems. If they weren't counting wheelie bins they'd probably be
collecing stamps or compiling dictionaries of Klingon. In this case
there is no real benefit to the rest of us, but it doesn't cause any
harm either.

There seems to be a further small category of rather insecure people
who need to do tests to prove themselves - typical Mensan behaviour.
One "advanced" driver here - now departed - boasted that he took
advanced driving tests three or four times a year (iirc).

Ian

The Real Doctor has brought this to us :
> On 10 Aug, 22:10, Redline  wrote:
>
>> So, my question is advanced driving only for those who are not up to
>> the mark?
>
> It seems to attract two main types:
>
> 1) Those who are nervous about driving, probably because they aren't
> very good at it, and want more instruction. For the rest of us, this
> is a Good Thing.

Agreed.

> 2) Asperger's sorts, who like to work semi-obsessively within rules
> and systems. If they weren't counting wheelie bins they'd probably be
> collecing stamps or compiling dictionaries of Klingon. In this case
> there is no real benefit to the rest of us, but it doesn't cause any
> harm either.

LOL

> There seems to be a further small category of rather insecure people
> who need to do tests to prove themselves - typical Mensan behaviour.
> One "advanced" driver here - now departed - boasted that he took
> advanced driving tests three or four times a year (iirc).

I think you've summed it all up perfectly.  Thanks.

"Redline"  wrote in message 
news:mn.5a437d882443784c.90824@privacy.com...
> MrBitsy brought next idea :
>
>> What mark?
>
> up to scratch..
> up to par...
> up to speed...
>
> Still feeling clueless? ;-)

Yes - what 'mark' are you talking about.

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"The Real Doctor"  wrote in message 
news:2b15e32d-d688-4af0-b7ac-e0457118a404@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 10 Aug, 22:10, Redline  wrote:
>
>> So, my question is advanced driving only for those who are not up to
>> the mark?
>
> It seems to attract two main types:
>
> 1) Those who are nervous about driving, probably because they aren't
> very good at it, and want more instruction. For the rest of us, this
> is a Good Thing.

Certainly is.

> 2) Asperger's sorts, who like to work semi-obsessively within rules
> and systems. If they weren't counting wheelie bins they'd probably be
> collecing stamps or compiling dictionaries of Klingon. In this case
> there is no real benefit to the rest of us, but it doesn't cause any
> harm either.

Certainly doesn't.

> There seems to be a further small category of rather insecure people
> who need to do tests to prove themselves - typical Mensan behaviour.
> One "advanced" driver here - now departed - boasted that he took
> advanced driving tests three or four times a year (iirc).

Maybe that person wanted to be the best driver he could be, having to 
'prove' nothing to anyone else?

You forgot 4 ...

4) Insecure or lazy types.  Upon learning other people are trying to improve 
their driving, resort to attack the personality of said person. Any mention 
of a good technique is met by derision from those who think they know best, 
yet have not taken any steps to improve their own driving.


-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  wrote:

> It seems to attract two main types:

How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
everything, and there's always room for improvement?

Steve.


> Ian

"Steve Smith"  wrote in message 
news:bb319142-bd0e-42eb-8ed0-9cbc83e9b1f7@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  
> wrote:
>
>> It seems to attract two main types:
>
> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and 
> think
> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
> everything, and there's always room for improvement?

Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is 
only 'one' right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced' 
drivers would have us believe.
Mike.

Mike G used his keyboard to write :
> "Steve Smith"  wrote in message 
> news:bb319142-bd0e-42eb-8ed0-9cbc83e9b1f7@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>
>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?

For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you 
do not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot 
of common sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need to 
know "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when you're 
 manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...

> Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is only 'one' 
> right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced' drivers would have us 
> believe.
> Mike.

Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and 
how does one identify one?

Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million 
miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's got 
a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're an 'advanced' 
driver?  LOL

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Redline wrote:

> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you do not
> require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot of common
> sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need to know "everything".
> But surely you need to know "everything" when you're manoeuvring a fighter
> plane and in combat...

Some road situations are worse than taking a fighter into combat!

> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million miles,
> accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's got a sticker on
> their windscreen advising the world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL

It's someone who sits under behind a keyboard and makes daft statements 
to get a response.  Oh hang on, that's a Usenet troll, not an advanced 
driver.

-- 
Chris

Chris Lawrence explained on 11/08/2008 :
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Redline wrote:
>
>> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you do not
>> require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot of common
>> sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need to know 
>> "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when you're 
>> manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
>
> Some road situations are worse than taking a fighter into combat!

Rubbish!

>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million miles,
>> accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's got a sticker 
>> on their windscreen advising the world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>
> It's someone who sits under behind a keyboard and makes daft statements 
> to get a response.  Oh hang on, that's a Usenet troll, not an advanced 
> driver.

If that were true, why did you respond?  You must be pretty daft by 
your own standards. LOL

"Redline"  wrote in message 
news:mn.5c3a7d88e9cf7d1f.90824@privacy.com...
> Mike G used his keyboard to write :
>> "Steve Smith"  wrote in message 
>> news:bb319142-bd0e-42eb-8ed0-9cbc83e9b1f7@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>
>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and 
>>> think
>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>
> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic 
> regulations, you do not require any extra or so-called 
> 'advanced' skills. You need a lot of common sense and good 
> hazard perception sense.  You don't need to know "everything". 
> But surely you need to know "everything" when you're 
> manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
>
>> Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is 
>> only 'one' right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced' 
>> drivers would have us believe.
>> Mike.
>
> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced 
> driver' and how does one identify one?
>
> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a 
> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it 
> someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the 
> world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL

An interesting question.
There seems to be an idea that any driver without 'advanced' 
driving qualifications, is by definition a driver who would be a 
better driver if they took an advanced drivers course.

I would argue that your first example indicates a 'good' driver 
just as effectively as another driver who has passed an advanced 
driving test.

Whilst the technical aspects of driving can be relevant, if only 
because of the effect it can have on your pocket, safe driving is 
more important.

Those who have driven many thousands of accident free miles over 
decades, must be doing something right, and don't deserve to be 
lectured by drivers who have only comparitively recently passed 
an advanced driving course.

That is not to say that any driver hasn't any room for 
improvement. We could all be better drivers, but that is not 
necessarily achieved by 'advanced' driving tuition.
Mike.

>
>

After serious thinking Mike G wrote :
> "Redline"  wrote in message 
> news:mn.5c3a7d88e9cf7d1f.90824@privacy.com...
>> Mike G used his keyboard to write :
>>> "Steve Smith"  wrote in message 
>>> news:bb319142-bd0e-42eb-8ed0-9cbc83e9b1f7@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>>
>>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
>>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>>
>> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you do 
>> not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot of 
>> common sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need to know 
>> "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when you're 
>> manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
>>
>>> Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is only 'one' 
>>> right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced' drivers would have us 
>>> believe.
>>> Mike.
>>
>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and how 
>> does one identify one?
>>
>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million 
>> miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's got a 
>> sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're an 'advanced' 
>> driver?  LOL
>
> An interesting question.
> There seems to be an idea that any driver without 'advanced' driving 
> qualifications, is by definition a driver who would be a better driver if 
> they took an advanced drivers course.

http://www.iam.org.uk/aboutus/videooverview.htm

Like the nervous woman in the video?  I guess the advanced driving 
course would improve her confidence level - but I am not convinced that 
she would be a better driver than the driver in the first example.

I wonder if they had some data on the types of drivers who attended 
these courses.  By the looks of it they're obviously targetting nervous 
women...

> I would argue that your first example indicates a 'good' driver just as 
> effectively as another driver who has passed an advanced driving test.
> Whilst the technical aspects of driving can be relevant, if only because of 
> the effect it can have on your pocket, safe driving is more important.
>
> Those who have driven many thousands of accident free miles over decades, 
> must be doing something right, and don't deserve to be lectured by drivers 
> who have only comparitively recently passed an advanced driving course.

> That is not to say that any driver hasn't any room for improvement. We could 
> all be better drivers, but that is not necessarily achieved by 'advanced' 
> driving tuition.

Agreed.

Redline wrote:
> Mike G used his keyboard to write :
>> "Steve Smith"  wrote in message
>> news:bb319142-bd0e-42eb-8ed0-9cbc83e9b1f7@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor 
>>> wrote:
>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>
>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>
> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you
> do not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a
> lot of common sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need
> to know "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when
> you're manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
>
>> Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is only
>> 'one' right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced' drivers
>> would have us believe.
>> Mike.
>
> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and
> how does one identify one?
>
> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million
> miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?

Having a clean licence is merely an indication of undetected crime.

>  Or is it someone that's
> got a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're an
> 'advanced' driver?  LOL

An "advanced driver" is the one that no one else notices.

"Redline"  wrote in message 
news:mn.5c3a7d88e9cf7d1f.90824@privacy.com...
> Mike G used his keyboard to write :
>> "Steve Smith"  wrote in message 
>> news:bb319142-bd0e-42eb-8ed0-9cbc83e9b1f7@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>
>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>
> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you do 
> not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot of 
> common sense and good hazard perception sense.

I hope you realise how daft this statement is :-(

Advanced driving courses are all about increasing hazard perception, using 
techniques refined over many years.  There are plenty of drivers out there 
without good awareness, so anything one can do to increase hazard perception 
can only be good - I hope you would not suggest there is nothing you could 
learn?

> You don't need to know "everything". But surely you need to know 
> "everything" when you're manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...

Surely the aim of both a driver and fighter pilot, is to be aware of as much 
as possible? Let us imagine a fighter pilot that passes basic training, then 
goes on to learn about the avionics and systems found in an aircraft like 
the Typhoon. Give that fighter pilot just enough knowledge to operate those 
systems. Now, let the pilot loose on the enemy.  If however, we sent another 
pilot on several other courses concerned with fighter tactics, ground attack 
mission tactics and emergency procedures, would you say this pilot is no 
more skilled than the first?

We give driver the bare minimum skills to get on the road - they have 
limited understanding of defensive driving and hazard awareness. However, if 
a driver takes an advanced course, they will learn valuable techniques to 
help them drive defensivly, learn better where to look and when to look. 
This will help to develop a much better anticipation.

Do you disagree with this?

>> Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is only 'one' 
>> right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced' drivers would have us 
>> believe.

Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it is a 
system that has been developed for many years.

>
> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and how 
> does one identify one?

They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.

> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million 
> miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's got a 
> sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're an 'advanced' 
> driver?  LOL

One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but completing 
an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to help keep you safe. 
Think about the fighter pilots above - is the pilot with the fighter tactics 
course under his belt 100% more likely to survive an enemy encounter? No, of 
course not, but I think we can agree he will have a better chance of staying 
alive than the pilot who didn't take the course.



-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
> "Redline"  wrote in message

> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - 
> it is a system that has been developed for many years.
>
>>
>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced 
>> driver' and how does one identify one?
>
> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been 
> passed.
>
>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a 
>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it 
>> someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the 
>> world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>
> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but 
> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable 
> techniques to help keep you safe. Think about the fighter 
> pilots above - is the pilot with the fighter tactics course 
> under his belt 100% more likely to survive an enemy encounter? 
> No, of course not, but I think we can agree he will have a 
> better chance of staying alive than the pilot who didn't take 
> the course.

You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a 
driver can have all the virtues that you extoll, without having 
taken an advanced driving course. You're making the assumption 
that only advanced driving tuition can improve their technique.

I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced 
driving tuition.
What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only 
way that improvements can be made.
Mike.

"Mike G"  wrote in message 
news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>
> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>
>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it is a 
>> system that has been developed for many years.
>>
>>>
>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and how 
>>> does one identify one?
>>
>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>
>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million 
>>> miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's got 
>>> a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're an 'advanced' 
>>> driver?  LOL
>>
>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but 
>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to help 
>> keep you safe. Think about the fighter pilots above - is the pilot with 
>> the fighter tactics course under his belt 100% more likely to survive an 
>> enemy encounter? No, of course not, but I think we can agree he will have 
>> a better chance of staying alive than the pilot who didn't take the 
>> course.
>
> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a driver can 
> have all the virtues that you extoll, without having taken an advanced 
> driving course. You're making the assumption that only advanced driving 
> tuition can improve their technique.

Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody with the 
relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they are using good 
techniques?


> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced driving 
> tuition.
> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only way that 
> improvements can be made.

For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

MrBitsy wrote:
> "Mike G"  wrote in message
> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>
>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>
>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it
>>> is a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver'
>>>> and how does one identify one?
>>>
>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>
>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a
>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it
>>>> someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the
>>>> world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>
>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but
>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to
>>> help keep you safe. Think about the fighter pilots above - is the
>>> pilot with the fighter tactics course under his belt 100% more
>>> likely to survive an enemy encounter? No, of course not, but I
>>> think we can agree he will have a better chance of staying alive
>>> than the pilot who didn't take the course.
>>
>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a driver
>> can have all the virtues that you extoll, without having taken an
>> advanced driving course. You're making the assumption that only
>> advanced driving tuition can improve their technique.
>
> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody with the
> relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they are
> using good techniques?
>
>
>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced driving
>> tuition.
>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only
>> way that improvements can be made.
>
> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?

Many people are autodidactic.

"Brimstone"  wrote in message 
news:aYSdnRIj9p5fLD3VnZ2dnUVZ8trinZ2d@bt.com...
> MrBitsy wrote:
>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>
>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it
>>>> is a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver'
>>>>> and how does one identify one?
>>>>
>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>>
>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a
>>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it
>>>>> someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the
>>>>> world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>
>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but
>>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to
>>>> help keep you safe. Think about the fighter pilots above - is the
>>>> pilot with the fighter tactics course under his belt 100% more
>>>> likely to survive an enemy encounter? No, of course not, but I
>>>> think we can agree he will have a better chance of staying alive
>>>> than the pilot who didn't take the course.
>>>
>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a driver
>>> can have all the virtues that you extoll, without having taken an
>>> advanced driving course. You're making the assumption that only
>>> advanced driving tuition can improve their technique.
>>
>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody with the
>> relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they are
>> using good techniques?
>>
>>
>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced driving
>>> tuition.
>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only
>>> way that improvements can be made.
>>
>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>
> Many people are autodidactic.


Very often their understanding is lacking because of it.

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

MrBitsy wrote:
> "Brimstone"  wrote in message
> news:aYSdnRIj9p5fLD3VnZ2dnUVZ8trinZ2d@bt.com...
>> MrBitsy wrote:
>>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>>
>> Many people are autodidactic.
>
>
> Very often their understanding is lacking because of it.

That depends on the quality of the teaching.

"MrBitsy"  wrote in message
news:nR1ok.28340$Z24.356@newsfe19.ams2...
> "Mike G"  wrote in message
> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>
>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>
>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car
>>> control - it is a system that has been developed for many
>>> years.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced
>>>> driver' and how does one identify one?
>>>
>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been
>>> passed.
>>>
>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over
>>>> a million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is
>>>> it someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising
>>>> the world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>
>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver,
>>> but completing an advanced course will teach you valuable
>>> techniques to help keep you safe. Think about the fighter
>>> pilots above - is the pilot with the fighter tactics course
>>> under his belt 100% more likely to survive an enemy
>>> encounter? No, of course not, but I think we can agree he
>>> will have a better chance of staying alive than the pilot who
>>> didn't take the course.
>>
>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a
>> driver can have all the virtues that you extoll, without
>> having taken an advanced driving course. You're making the
>> assumption that only advanced driving tuition can improve
>> their technique.
>
> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody
> with the relevant training - otherwise how would any driver
> know they are using good techniques?

By results and observation.
The idea that advanced driving tuition is the 'only' way to
improve ones driving is simply not true.

>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced
>> driving tuition.
>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the
>> only way that improvements can be made.
>
> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?

Self tuition, using common sense, reading, and experience.
And I think I know how you will reply to that. That many drivers
will have developed bad habits, that need to be pointed out by an
advanced driver. Whilst I've no doubt that that is true in many
cases, it doesn't apply to all.

Not all drivers believe they have nothing to learn. Some will
treat driving as a continuous learning process. Over years of
experience, such a driver can be equally as competent as an
advanced driving instructor. Which is what you fail to recognise.

Passing an IAM test does not mean one is a good driver. IMO that
is more likely to be the case with someone who has driven many
thousands of accident free miles over many years.
Mike.

After serious thinking Mike G wrote :
> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
> news:nR1ok.28340$Z24.356@newsfe19.ams2...
>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>
>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car
>>>> control - it is a system that has been developed for many
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced
>>>>> driver' and how does one identify one?
>>>>
>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been
>>>> passed.

So they've got this certificate pasted on their foreheads?  Surely I 
can spot a crappy driver - but how do I spot an advanced driver who has 
successfully completed the course on a public road?  Hmmmm??

>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over
>>>>> a million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is
>>>>> it someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising
>>>>> the world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>
>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver,
>>>> but completing an advanced course will teach you valuable
>>>> techniques to help keep you safe. Think about the fighter
>>>> pilots above - is the pilot with the fighter tactics course
>>>> under his belt 100% more likely to survive an enemy
>>>> encounter? No, of course not, but I think we can agree he
>>>> will have a better chance of staying alive than the pilot who
>>>> didn't take the course.

You don't need fighter pilot skills to be flying a plane from Stansted 
to Prestwick.

>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a
>>> driver can have all the virtues that you extoll, without
>>> having taken an advanced driving course. You're making the
>>> assumption that only advanced driving tuition can improve
>>> their technique.

Obviously they can't accept that some folks do NOT need advanced 
courses to know which gear to be in at which speed.

I think The Real Doctor summed  up pretty succintly the types of people 
the course generally tend to attract.  And if you go through the IAM 
website you will find that they are targetting people that have lost 
their confidence in driving or are nervous, particularly.

>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody
>> with the relevant training - otherwise how would any driver
>> know they are using good techniques?
>
> By results and observation.
> The idea that advanced driving tuition is the 'only' way to
> improve ones driving is simply not true.
>
>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced
>>> driving tuition.
>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the
>>> only way that improvements can be made.
>>
>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>
> Self tuition, using common sense, reading, and experience.
> And I think I know how you will reply to that. That many drivers
> will have developed bad habits, that need to be pointed out by an
> advanced driver. Whilst I've no doubt that that is true in many
> cases, it doesn't apply to all.

If that were the point he is about to make, then this "advanced" course 
should be aptly named as a "refresher" course.

> Not all drivers believe they have nothing to learn. Some will
> treat driving as a continuous learning process. Over years of
> experience, such a driver can be equally as competent as an
> advanced driving instructor. Which is what you fail to recognise.

Actually some would be better than those so-called advanced driving 
instructors.  Someone who has done hundreds of thousands of miles in 
various conditions would have better knowledge and real-life experience 
than someone driving under simulated conditions.

> Passing an IAM test does not mean one is a good driver. IMO that
> is more likely to be the case with someone who has driven many
> thousands of accident free miles over many years.

Perhaps some folks think that passing an IAM test guarantees a driver  
thousands of accident free miles. Sadly this is not the case.  You need 
more than a silly certificate to prove you're a good driver.

On 11 Aug, 18:02, Redline  wrote:

> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you
> do not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot
> of common sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need to
> know "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when you're
>  manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...

Redline, this interests me, because until fairly recently, I shared
your view.  I hope you won't mind answering a couple of questions?

1) How do you rate your own driving ability?

2) Do you believe that an advanced driving course would help in any
way to improve your driving?

For my own part, I think I'm pretty good but far from perfect, and
yes, I do think that an advanced driving course will help me to be a
better driver (so far I've had just one observed session with ROADAR).

Steve.


Steve.

MrBitsy wrote:
> "Mike G"  wrote in message 
> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>
>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>
>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it is 
>>> a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and 
>>>> how does one identify one?
>>>
>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>
>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a 
>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone 
>>>> that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're 
>>>> an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>
>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but 
>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to 
>>> help keep you safe.

The key components of defensive driving which is now more widely taught. 
How much goes in one ear and out the other is hard to tell.

I have known some proud IAMers who were so concerned with making "good" 
progress they were too often on the wrong side of the road facing 
annoyed oncoming traffic (closing speed ~150mph). One of them ended 
upside down in a field and was done for DWDA, and another in a hedge.

An over confident idiot with an IAM badge of honour is still a hazard on 
the road with or without his additional qualification.
>>
>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a driver 
>> can have all the virtues that you extoll, without having taken an 
>> advanced driving course. You're making the assumption that only 
>> advanced driving tuition can improve their technique.
> 
> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody with the 
> relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they are using 
> good techniques?

Obviously you have to go out with someone experienced (usually a retired 
police driver trainer), but not necessarily with the IAM. Several 
insurers are encouraging major corporates to put their road warriors 
through advanced driver training as part of a health & safety initiative 
these days. eg

http://www.fleet-driver-training-and-driving-lessons-in-rotherham.co.uk/fleet_training.asp
http://www.aadrivertraining.co.uk/gpage1.html
etc.

The programme was also open at a subsidised rate to any spouses who 
wanted to do it too thanks to an enlightened company safety policy.
I suspect they all use Roadcraft as the basis.

You cannot assume these days that all police cars have properly trained 
drivers either. I have seen them brake at exactly the point on a tight 
bend where had they been going too fast loss of control would have been 
inevitable. There are bends round here with flowers on the exit point.

>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced driving 
>> tuition.
>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only way 
>> that improvements can be made.
> 
> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?

Non IAM courses covering the same ground and with access to either 
classical skid pan or electronic servo based brake degrading hardware. 
You cannot sensibly practice skid control on the public highway with 
sufficient margin for error. Same for controlling two wheels on tarmac 
and two on loose gravel. The IAM is not the only game in town, but I 
think most of the reputable trainers still use RoadCraft as a basis.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roadcraft-Essential-Police-Drivers-Handbook/dp/0117021687/ref=ed_oe_p

There is nothing that prevents people from reading the book and acting 
on its good advice whether or not they take the IAM test.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:01:21 +0100, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>MrBitsy wrote:
>> "Mike G"  wrote in message 
>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>
>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it is 
>>>> a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and 
>>>>> how does one identify one?
>>>>
>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>>
>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a 
>>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone 
>>>>> that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're 
>>>>> an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>
>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but 
>>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to 
>>>> help keep you safe.
>
>The key components of defensive driving which is now more widely taught. 
>How much goes in one ear and out the other is hard to tell.
>
>I have known some proud IAMers who were so concerned with making "good" 
>progress they were too often on the wrong side of the road facing 
>annoyed oncoming traffic (closing speed ~150mph). One of them ended 
>upside down in a field and was done for DWDA, and another in a hedge.
>
>An over confident idiot with an IAM badge of honour is still a hazard on 
>the road with or without his additional qualification.

Most people would be better off retaking normal driving lessons rather
than this IAM horseshit, in order to unlearn years of bad habits.

"MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
news:zF2ok.147$rv6.135@newsfe12.ams2...
> "Brimstone"  wrote in message 
> news:aYSdnRIj9p5fLD3VnZ2dnUVZ8trinZ2d@bt.com...
>> MrBitsy wrote:
>>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>>
>>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car 
>>>>> control - it
>>>>> is a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced 
>>>>>> driver'
>>>>>> and how does one identify one?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been 
>>>>> passed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done 
>>>>>> over a
>>>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is 
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, 
>>>>> but
>>>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable 
>>>>> techniques to
>>>>> help keep you safe. Think about the fighter pilots above - 
>>>>> is the
>>>>> pilot with the fighter tactics course under his belt 100% 
>>>>> more
>>>>> likely to survive an enemy encounter? No, of course not, 
>>>>> but I
>>>>> think we can agree he will have a better chance of staying 
>>>>> alive
>>>>> than the pilot who didn't take the course.
>>>>
>>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that 
>>>> a driver
>>>> can have all the virtues that you extoll, without having 
>>>> taken an
>>>> advanced driving course. You're making the assumption that 
>>>> only
>>>> advanced driving tuition can improve their technique.
>>>
>>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody 
>>> with the
>>> relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they 
>>> are
>>> using good techniques?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced 
>>>> driving
>>>> tuition.
>>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the 
>>>> only
>>>> way that improvements can be made.
>>>
>>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>>
>> Many people are autodidactic.
>
>
> Very often their understanding is lacking because of it.

How can it be otherwise?
What you are still failing to recognise, is that a self taught 
driver can be equally as competent as one who has passed an 
advanced driving test.

I'm not saying that 'any' driver who has years of experience is 
necessarily a better driver than one with less experience but who 
has had advanced training. Just that passing a test doesn't 
automatically convert a mediocre driver into a good driver. 
Probably a better one, but maybe still not as good as the one who 
has learned from years of experience.
Mike.

On 11 Aug, 15:07, "MrBitsy"  wrote:
> "The Real Doctor"  wrote in messagenews:2b15e32d-d688-4af0-b7ac-e0457118a404@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> > [Advanced driving] seems to attract two main types:

> You forgot 4 ...

> 4) Insecure or lazy types.  Upon learning other people are trying to improve
> their driving, resort to attack the personality of said person. Any mention
> of a good technique is met by derision from those who think they know best,
> yet have not taken any steps to improve their own driving.

Do you get many of them in the IAM? Anyway, being nervous or a bit
Aspergersy isn't a character defect - just part of the grand scope of
human behaviour.

Ian

On 11 Aug, 15:48, Steve Smith  wrote:
> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  wrote:
>
> > It seems to attract two main types:
>
> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
> everything, and there's always room for improvement?

'spossible that there are some of them around the IAM, but it's not
the impression I get from here.

Ian

On 11 Aug, 16:22, "Mike G"  wrote:

> Or those who believe the same, but don't believe that there is
> only 'one' right way to drive, which seems to what 'advanced'
> drivers would have us believe.

It's not "a system of car control" or even "the system of car control"
- it's "The System" (with capitals) and is infallible. Well, until the
next edition of roadcraft comes out, that is.

Ian

On 11 Aug, 20:22, "MrBitsy"  wrote:

> Surely the aim of both a driver and fighter pilot, is to be aware of as much
> as possible?

Nope. The aim is to be aware of enough of the right things. Trying to
be aware of everything is asking for information overload.


Ian

On 11 Aug, 23:36, "Mike G"  wrote:

> Not all drivers believe they have nothing to learn. Some will
> treat driving as a continuous learning process. Over years of
> experience, such a driver can be equally as competent as an
> advanced driving instructor. Which is what you fail to recognise.
>
> Passing an IAM test does not mean one is a good driver.

I'd go further. I think someone who is capable of self-evaluation,
reflection and improvement is likely to be a hell of a lot better
driver than someone who needs to take a course and pass a test to know
that they have "improved".

Ian

On 12 Aug, 07:15, Redline  wrote:

> Actually some would be better than those so-called advanced driving
> instructors.

I thought the IAM had "observers" rather than" instructors"? I
presumed it was because most of them are unqualified, and therefore
not legally permitted to give instruction, and to avoid insurance
restrictions on using cars for instruction.

Ian

After serious thinking Steve Smith wrote :
> On 11 Aug, 18:02, Redline  wrote:
>
>> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you
>> do not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot
>> of common sense and good hazard perception sense.  You don't need to
>> know "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when you're
>>  manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
>
> Redline, this interests me, because until fairly recently, I shared
> your view.  I hope you won't mind answering a couple of questions?
>
> 1) How do you rate your own driving ability?

To briefly put it, I feel I am confident and can manage myself fairly 
well on a public road, without putting myself, or other participants in 
danger...

Goes without saying that I obey traffic rules and, fully appreciate, 
what the vehicle I'm driving is capable of doing (or not doing!) in  
varying situations ;-)

> 2) Do you believe that an advanced driving course would help in any
> way to improve your driving?

I think an advanced driving course would particularly benefit those 
that  have somehow managed to acquire a licence but are actually NOT 
fit to be driving on public roads.  These drivers come in various 
forms: some lack confidence, nervous, some are over confident, some 
reckless, lack observation, some aggressive, some inconsiderate, some 
don't adhere to rules etc. etc.  You get the picture.  Everyday we come 
across such drivers.  I think these are the folks that particularly 
would derive immense benefit from the course than you or I.

Why?  Because no matter how good you think you are because you have a 
certificate that says so, or how defensively you are trained to drive, 
it still wouldn't guarantee you from being a victim.  Plus, being 
constantly on the lookout for idiots is a total Killjoy!  Driving is 
supposed to be a pleasurable activity (at least for some folks).

Some folks are naturally good at driving, have good judgement, good 
road sense, will obey rules etc. etc. Some folks simply don't have it 
in  them.  That's life.  Good judgement is something that you cannot 
expect to get after a doing an advanced course!

Another way to analyse this is by considering the following: if all the 
nervous, confidence-lacking drivers were to attend these "advanced" 
courses, then that would mean the rest of us could drive at ease, less 
defensively, without perceiving every vehicle on the road as a 
developing hazard!!

> For my own part, I think I'm pretty good but far from perfect, and
> yes, I do think that an advanced driving course will help me to be a
> better driver (so far I've had just one observed session with ROADAR).

As others were suggesting there is always room for fine tuning one's 
skills etc.  Learning doesn't necessarily need to be through a 
certified course. If you've slipped up and have begun to form bad 
habits, then you're the one to blame, and rectifying bad form via a 
course might be beneficial.

However, if you're the kind that's enthusiastic and passionate about 
driving and driving safely - then you surely don't need to attend a 
course or attain a badge of honour to affirm this - there are various 
other ways to build upon your skills you already have.

"The Real Doctor"  wrote in message 
news:cc8c9f06-140e-474b-9080-20468c5c9ab5@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 11 Aug, 15:48, Steve Smith  
> wrote:
>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > It seems to attract two main types:
>>
>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and 
>> think
>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>
> 'spossible that there are some of them around the IAM, but it's 
> not
> the impression I get from here.

The impression I'm being given here by certain individuals, is 
that unless you're an 'advanced driver' you can't be a good 
driver.
As if the two are incompatible.
Mike.

Mike G wrote:
> "The Real Doctor"  wrote in message
> news:cc8c9f06-140e-474b-9080-20468c5c9ab5@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> On 11 Aug, 15:48, Steve Smith 
>> wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>
>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and
>>> think
>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>>
>> 'spossible that there are some of them around the IAM, but it's
>> not
>> the impression I get from here.
>
> The impression I'm being given here by certain individuals, is
> that unless you're an 'advanced driver' you can't be a good
> driver.
> As if the two are incompatible.

Sorry Mike, I need to make a minor correction to your comment. I think it 
should read, 'Advanced Driver' as some of them seem to use it as a title.

I do agree with you though. Sadly there are many people who don't understand 
that some people are capable of learning without being taught hence the 
modern fashion for qualifications over experience.

"Brimstone"  wrote in message 
news:opSdnYeJM8XheDzVnZ2dnUVZ8hydnZ2d@bt.com...
> Mike G wrote:
>> "The Real Doctor"  wrote in 
>> message
>> news:cc8c9f06-140e-474b-9080-20468c5c9ab5@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 11 Aug, 15:48, Steve Smith 
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor 
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>>
>>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, 
>>>> and
>>>> think
>>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't 
>>>> know
>>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>>>
>>> 'spossible that there are some of them around the IAM, but 
>>> it's
>>> not
>>> the impression I get from here.
>>
>> The impression I'm being given here by certain individuals, is
>> that unless you're an 'advanced driver' you can't be a good
>> driver.
>> As if the two are incompatible.
>
> Sorry Mike, I need to make a minor correction to your comment. 
> I think it should read, 'Advanced Driver' as some of them seem 
> to use it as a title.

My use of lower case was actually quite deliberate. I didn't want 
to give the term more importance than it deserves. :-)
Mike.

Mike G wrote:
> "Brimstone"  wrote in message
> news:opSdnYeJM8XheDzVnZ2dnUVZ8hydnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Mike G wrote:
>>> "The Real Doctor"  wrote in
>>> message
>>> news:cc8c9f06-140e-474b-9080-20468c5c9ab5@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On 11 Aug, 15:48, Steve Smith 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to attract two main types:
>>>>>
>>>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers,
>>>>> and
>>>>> think
>>>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>>>>
>>>> 'spossible that there are some of them around the IAM, but
>>>> it's
>>>> not
>>>> the impression I get from here.
>>>
>>> The impression I'm being given here by certain individuals, is
>>> that unless you're an 'advanced driver' you can't be a good
>>> driver.
>>> As if the two are incompatible.
>>
>> Sorry Mike, I need to make a minor correction to your comment.
>> I think it should read, 'Advanced Driver' as some of them seem
>> to use it as a title.
>
> My use of lower case was actually quite deliberate. I didn't want
> to give the term more importance than it deserves. :-)

I see what you're getting at and think it's a question of perspective. 
You've expressed ours, I was trying to put across theirs. :-)

"Mike G"  wrote in message 
news:QPydnQFl6fUD4jzVnZ2dnUVZ8q2dnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>
> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
> news:zF2ok.147$rv6.135@newsfe12.ams2...
>> "Brimstone"  wrote in message 
>> news:aYSdnRIj9p5fLD3VnZ2dnUVZ8trinZ2d@bt.com...
>>> MrBitsy wrote:
>>>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>>>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>>>
>>>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it
>>>>>> is a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver'
>>>>>>> and how does one identify one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a
>>>>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it
>>>>>>> someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the
>>>>>>> world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but
>>>>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to
>>>>>> help keep you safe. Think about the fighter pilots above - is the
>>>>>> pilot with the fighter tactics course under his belt 100% more
>>>>>> likely to survive an enemy encounter? No, of course not, but I
>>>>>> think we can agree he will have a better chance of staying alive
>>>>>> than the pilot who didn't take the course.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a driver
>>>>> can have all the virtues that you extoll, without having taken an
>>>>> advanced driving course. You're making the assumption that only
>>>>> advanced driving tuition can improve their technique.
>>>>
>>>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody with the
>>>> relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they are
>>>> using good techniques?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced driving
>>>>> tuition.
>>>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only
>>>>> way that improvements can be made.
>>>>
>>>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>>>
>>> Many people are autodidactic.
>>
>>
>> Very often their understanding is lacking because of it.
>
> How can it be otherwise?
> What you are still failing to recognise, is that a self taught driver can 
> be equally as competent as one who has passed an advanced driving test.

How would the self taught driver know?

>
> I'm not saying that 'any' driver who has years of experience is 
> necessarily a better driver than one with less experience but who has had 
> advanced training. Just that passing a test doesn't automatically convert 
> a mediocre driver into a good driver. Probably a better one, but maybe 
> still not as good as the one who has learned from years of experience.

One doesn't pass the advanced test without display good driving skills, and 
an understanding of the roadcraft system.

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"Mike G"  wrote in message 
news:hZqdnVMoled2Iz3VnZ2dnUVZ8qGdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>
> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
> news:nR1ok.28340$Z24.356@newsfe19.ams2...
>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>
>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car
>>>> control - it is a system that has been developed for many
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced
>>>>> driver' and how does one identify one?
>>>>
>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been
>>>> passed.
>>>>
>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over
>>>>> a million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is
>>>>> it someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising
>>>>> the world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>
>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver,
>>>> but completing an advanced course will teach you valuable
>>>> techniques to help keep you safe. Think about the fighter
>>>> pilots above - is the pilot with the fighter tactics course
>>>> under his belt 100% more likely to survive an enemy
>>>> encounter? No, of course not, but I think we can agree he
>>>> will have a better chance of staying alive than the pilot who
>>>> didn't take the course.
>>>
>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a
>>> driver can have all the virtues that you extoll, without
>>> having taken an advanced driving course. You're making the
>>> assumption that only advanced driving tuition can improve
>>> their technique.
>>
>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody
>> with the relevant training - otherwise how would any driver
>> know they are using good techniques?
>
> By results and observation.
> The idea that advanced driving tuition is the 'only' way to
> improve ones driving is simply not true.

A driver may decide looking in the mirror is a dangerous practice, because 
that takes his vision away from the front. The logic of that can't be 
faulted, but it is hardly the best way of going about things.

Until a driver is taught from an organisation using a tried and tested 
method of car control, how would a driver know they are doing something the 
best way they could? How could they know they are applying something read 
from a book in the right way?

>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced
>>> driving tuition.
>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the
>>> only way that improvements can be made.
>>
>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>
> Self tuition, using common sense, reading, and experience.
> And I think I know how you will reply to that. That many drivers
> will have developed bad habits, that need to be pointed out by an
> advanced driver. Whilst I've no doubt that that is true in many
> cases, it doesn't apply to all.

Perhaps not, but having ones driving assesed is the only way you will know 
you have enterpreted the book properly. Only by being assessed will you know 
your techniques learnt from experience are the best they could be.

>
> Not all drivers believe they have nothing to learn. Some will
> treat driving as a continuous learning process. Over years of
> experience, such a driver can be equally as competent as an
> advanced driving instructor. Which is what you fail to recognise.
>
> Passing an IAM test does not mean one is a good driver. IMO that
> is more likely to be the case with someone who has driven many
> thousands of accident free miles over many years.

How much of that experience was down to luck - until you get yourself assed 
from an expert, you will never know.


-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

MrBitsy wrote:
> "Redline"  wrote in message 
> news:mn.5c3a7d88e9cf7d1f.90824@privacy.com...
> 
>> You don't need to know "everything". But surely you need to know 
>> "everything" when you're manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
> 
> 
> Surely the aim of both a driver and fighter pilot, is to be aware of as 
> much as possible?

  No, there is absolutely no need to spend time working out how recently 
the car in front was washed/waxed/polished/detailed nor what materials 
were used. Far better to look for things which affect its performance.

"Redline"  wrote in message 
news:mn.61b37d88c9b6d66a.90824@privacy.com...
> After serious thinking Mike G wrote :
>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>> news:nR1ok.28340$Z24.356@newsfe19.ams2...
>>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>>
>>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car
>>>>> control - it is a system that has been developed for many
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced
>>>>>> driver' and how does one identify one?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been
>>>>> passed.
>
> So they've got this certificate pasted on their foreheads?  Surely I can 
> spot a crappy driver - but how do I spot an advanced driver who has 
> successfully completed the course on a public road?  Hmmmm??

You will not notice them.

>>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over
>>>>>> a million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is
>>>>>> it someone that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising
>>>>>> the world they're an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver,
>>>>> but completing an advanced course will teach you valuable
>>>>> techniques to help keep you safe. Think about the fighter
>>>>> pilots above - is the pilot with the fighter tactics course
>>>>> under his belt 100% more likely to survive an enemy
>>>>> encounter? No, of course not, but I think we can agree he
>>>>> will have a better chance of staying alive than the pilot who
>>>>> didn't take the course.
>
> You don't need fighter pilot skills to be flying a plane from Stansted to 
> Prestwick.

>>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a
>>>> driver can have all the virtues that you extoll, without
>>>> having taken an advanced driving course. You're making the
>>>> assumption that only advanced driving tuition can improve
>>>> their technique.
>
> Obviously they can't accept that some folks do NOT need advanced courses 
> to know which gear to be in at which speed.

The basic L test covers that.

> I think The Real Doctor summed  up pretty succintly the types of people 
> the course generally tend to attract.  And if you go through the IAM 
> website you will find that they are targetting people that have lost their 
> confidence in driving or are nervous, particularly.

Most of the people I taught (observed) with the IAM just wanted to be as 
safe as they could be.

>>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody
>>> with the relevant training - otherwise how would any driver
>>> know they are using good techniques?
>>
>> By results and observation.
>> The idea that advanced driving tuition is the 'only' way to
>> improve ones driving is simply not true.
>>
>>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced
>>>> driving tuition.
>>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the
>>>> only way that improvements can be made.
>>>
>>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>>
>> Self tuition, using common sense, reading, and experience.
>> And I think I know how you will reply to that. That many drivers
>> will have developed bad habits, that need to be pointed out by an
>> advanced driver. Whilst I've no doubt that that is true in many
>> cases, it doesn't apply to all.
>
> If that were the point he is about to make, then this "advanced" course 
> should be aptly named as a "refresher" course.

The advanced course will refresh those things forgotten by many people, but 
an advanced course is far more than that.

>> Not all drivers believe they have nothing to learn. Some will
>> treat driving as a continuous learning process. Over years of
>> experience, such a driver can be equally as competent as an
>> advanced driving instructor. Which is what you fail to recognise.
>
> Actually some would be better than those so-called advanced driving 
> instructors.  Someone who has done hundreds of thousands of miles in 
> various conditions would have better knowledge and real-life experience 
> than someone driving under simulated conditions.

Simulated conditions?

>> Passing an IAM test does not mean one is a good driver. IMO that
>> is more likely to be the case with someone who has driven many
>> thousands of accident free miles over many years.
>
> Perhaps some folks think that passing an IAM test guarantees a driver 
> thousands of accident free miles. Sadly this is not the case.  You need 
> more than a silly certificate to prove you're a good driver.

You will not get the certificate without proving you have understood the 
course. I myself went to the IAM with 1.4 million miles under my belt - I 
understand there is always something to learn, rather than your attitude of 
knowing it all.  In fact, after the IAM I went to RoSPA to 'keep my hand 
in'.

It isn't about passing a test and you're an instant driving god, it is about 
continued training and assessment to make sure the standard is kept up.


-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"The Real Doctor"  wrote in message 
news:d78af0fe-19aa-476b-8c2f-a193693bd625@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 11 Aug, 23:36, "Mike G"  wrote:
>
>> Not all drivers believe they have nothing to learn. Some will
>> treat driving as a continuous learning process. Over years of
>> experience, such a driver can be equally as competent as an
>> advanced driving instructor. Which is what you fail to recognise.
>>
>> Passing an IAM test does not mean one is a good driver.
>
> I'd go further. I think someone who is capable of self-evaluation,
> reflection and improvement is likely to be a hell of a lot better
> driver than someone who needs to take a course and pass a test to know
> that they have "improved".


Without the course and test, how would one know?


-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:d0e42$48a15f6f$13124@news.teranews.com...
> MrBitsy wrote:
>> "Mike G"  wrote in message 
>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>
>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message 
>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it is a 
>>>> system that has been developed for many years.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and 
>>>>> how does one identify one?
>>>>
>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>>
>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a million 
>>>>> miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone that's 
>>>>> got a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're an 
>>>>> 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>
>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but 
>>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to 
>>>> help keep you safe.
>
> The key components of defensive driving which is now more widely taught. 
> How much goes in one ear and out the other is hard to tell.

It isn't hard to tell - a test pass shows you have understood - the regular 
re-tests show you have understood.

> I have known some proud IAMers who were so concerned with making "good" 
> progress they were too often on the wrong side of the road facing annoyed 
> oncoming traffic (closing speed ~150mph). One of them ended upside down in 
> a field and was done for DWDA, and another in a hedge.

A great description of being human - airline pilots fly into hills or land 
with the wheels up. Fighter pilots blow up the wrong buildinds, train 
drivers pass red signals - is their training really not required?

Perhaps we can just try and be sensible - on the whole, a person taking a 
course and passing a test is going to be more competent than someone not 
doing so.


> An over confident idiot with an IAM badge of honour is still a hazard on 
> the road with or without his additional qualification.

Yep - but the IAM test pass driver on the whole is less likely to be 
involved in an accident than the average driver.

>>> You're ignoring the points others are making, which is that a driver can 
>>> have all the virtues that you extoll, without having taken an advanced 
>>> driving course. You're making the assumption that only advanced driving 
>>> tuition can improve their technique.
>>
>> Driving can only be improved by taking a course with somebody with the 
>> relevant training - otherwise how would any driver know they are using 
>> good techniques?
>
> Obviously you have to go out with someone experienced (usually a retired 
> police driver trainer), but not necessarily with the IAM. Several insurers 
> are encouraging major corporates to put their road warriors through 
> advanced driver training as part of a health & safety initiative these 
> days. eg
>
> http://www.fleet-driver-training-and-driving-lessons-in-rotherham.co.uk/fleet_training.asp
> http://www.aadrivertraining.co.uk/gpage1.html
> etc.
>
> The programme was also open at a subsidised rate to any spouses who wanted 
> to do it too thanks to an enlightened company safety policy.
> I suspect they all use Roadcraft as the basis.
>
> You cannot assume these days that all police cars have properly trained 
> drivers either. I have seen them brake at exactly the point on a tight 
> bend where had they been going too fast loss of control would have been 
> inevitable. There are bends round here with flowers on the exit point.
>
>>> I don't deny that many drivers 'could' benefit from advanced driving 
>>> tuition.
>>> What I don't believe is that advanced driving tuition is the only way 
>>> that improvements can be made.
>>
>> For clarity, perhaps you could tell us the alternatives?
>
> Non IAM courses covering the same ground and with access to either 
> classical skid pan or electronic servo based brake degrading hardware. You 
> cannot sensibly practice skid control on the public highway with 
> sufficient margin for error. Same for controlling two wheels on tarmac and 
> two on loose gravel. The IAM is not the only game in town, but I think 
> most of the reputable trainers still use RoadCraft as a basis.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roadcraft-Essential-Police-Drivers-Handbook/dp/0117021687/ref=ed_oe_p
>
> There is nothing that prevents people from reading the book and acting on 
> its good advice whether or not they take the IAM test.

They would not know if they have interpreted the book properly without being 
assessed. Interesting that Roadcraft is used by so many organisations - 
maybe there are enough non crazy humans left to use it to the full!


-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"Graz"  wrote in message 
news:48a173dc.94783421@news.motzarella.org...
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:01:21 +0100, Martin Brown
> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>MrBitsy wrote:
>>> "Mike G"  wrote in message
>>> news:otCdnW9GtLo1OT3VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>>>>
>>>> "MrBitsy"  wrote in message
>>>> news:wk0ok.1502$iQ2.63@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>>> "Redline"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> Many organisations use the 'Roadcraft' system of car control - it is
>>>>> a system that has been developed for many years.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed.  All this begs the question: who is an 'advanced driver' and
>>>>>> how does one identify one?
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a certificate to show the advanced test has been passed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it someone that has 0 points on their license, done over a
>>>>>> million miles, accident free, confident etc. etc.?  Or is it someone
>>>>>> that's got a sticker on their windscreen advising the world they're
>>>>>> an 'advanced' driver?  LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> One doesn't need an advanced test pass to be a good driver, but
>>>>> completing an advanced course will teach you valuable techniques to
>>>>> help keep you safe.
>>
>>The key components of defensive driving which is now more widely taught.
>>How much goes in one ear and out the other is hard to tell.
>>
>>I have known some proud IAMers who were so concerned with making "good"
>>progress they were too often on the wrong side of the road facing
>>annoyed oncoming traffic (closing speed ~150mph). One of them ended
>>upside down in a field and was done for DWDA, and another in a hedge.
>>
>>An over confident idiot with an IAM badge of honour is still a hazard on
>>the road with or without his additional qualification.
>
> Most people would be better off retaking normal driving lessons rather
> than this IAM horseshit, in order to unlearn years of bad habits.


Get your facts straight - Roadcraft is not 'IAM horsehit'. It is a system of 
car control that has been used by many companies and police forces over many 
years.

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"The Real Doctor"  wrote in message 
news:10b19c5d-683a-4c91-be9f-33c32debe3ab@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 11 Aug, 20:22, "MrBitsy"  wrote:
>
>> Surely the aim of both a driver and fighter pilot, is to be aware of as 
>> much
>> as possible?
>
> Nope. The aim is to be aware of enough of the right things.

How does a driver not assessed by an expert, know if the things he knows are 
the 'right things'? You will no doubt agree airline pilots, fighter pilots, 
air traffic controllers, ship captains, submarine commanders and astronauts 
all know the right things because of the training received.

Why should it be any different for a driver?

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"Redline"  wrote in message 
news:mn.63787d88bd6abb41.90824@privacy.com...
> After serious thinking Steve Smith wrote :
>> On 11 Aug, 18:02, Redline  wrote:
>>
>>> For driving a vehicle on public roads, under traffic regulations, you
>>> do not require any extra or so-called 'advanced' skills. You need a lot
>>> of common sense and good hazard perception sense. You don't need to
>>> know "everything". But surely you need to know "everything" when you're
>>> manoeuvring a fighter plane and in combat...
>>
>> Redline, this interests me, because until fairly recently, I shared
>> your view.  I hope you won't mind answering a couple of questions?
>>
>> 1) How do you rate your own driving ability?
>
> To briefly put it, I feel I am confident and can manage myself fairly well 
> on a public road, without putting myself, or other participants in 
> danger...
>
> Goes without saying that I obey traffic rules and, fully appreciate, what 
> the vehicle I'm driving is capable of doing (or not doing!) in  varying 
> situations ;-)
>
>> 2) Do you believe that an advanced driving course would help in any
>> way to improve your driving?
>
> I think an advanced driving course would particularly benefit those that 
> have somehow managed to acquire a licence but are actually NOT fit to be 
> driving on public roads.  These drivers come in various forms: some lack 
> confidence, nervous, some are over confident, some reckless, lack 
> observation, some aggressive, some inconsiderate, some don't adhere to 
> rules etc. etc.  You get the picture.  Everyday we come across such 
> drivers.  I think these are the folks that particularly would derive 
> immense benefit from the course than you or I.
>
> Why?  Because no matter how good you think you are because you have a 
> certificate that says so, or how defensively you are trained to drive, it 
> still wouldn't guarantee you from being a victim.  Plus, being constantly 
> on the lookout for idiots is a total Killjoy!  Driving is supposed to be a 
> pleasurable activity (at least for some folks).
>
> Some folks are naturally good at driving, have good judgement, good road 
> sense, will obey rules etc. etc. Some folks simply don't have it in  them. 
> That's life.  Good judgement is something that you cannot expect to get 
> after a doing an advanced course!
>
> Another way to analyse this is by considering the following: if all the 
> nervous, confidence-lacking drivers were to attend these "advanced" 
> courses, then that would mean the rest of us could drive at ease, less 
> defensively, without perceiving every vehicle on the road as a developing 
> hazard!!
>
>> For my own part, I think I'm pretty good but far from perfect, and
>> yes, I do think that an advanced driving course will help me to be a
>> better driver (so far I've had just one observed session with ROADAR).
>
> As others were suggesting there is always room for fine tuning one's 
> skills etc.  Learning doesn't necessarily need to be through a certified 
> course. If you've slipped up and have begun to form bad habits, then 
> you're the one to blame, and rectifying bad form via a course might be 
> beneficial.
>
> However, if you're the kind that's enthusiastic and passionate about 
> driving and driving safely - then you surely don't need to attend a course 
> or attain a badge of honour to affirm this - there are various other ways 
> to build upon your skills you already have.

You could have shortened that quite a bit ...

'I know it all'

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi

"Mike G"  wrote in message 
news:qtidnREuppOwQDzVnZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>
> "The Real Doctor"  wrote in message 
> news:cc8c9f06-140e-474b-9080-20468c5c9ab5@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> On 11 Aug, 15:48, Steve Smith  wrote:
>>> On 11 Aug, 09:55, The Real Doctor  wrote:
>>>
>>> > It seems to attract two main types:
>>>
>>> How about those who, like me, are very confident drivers, and think
>>> that we are reasonably good, but recognise that we don't know
>>> everything, and there's always room for improvement?
>>
>> 'spossible that there are some of them around the IAM, but it's not
>> the impression I get from here.
>
> The impression I'm being given here by certain individuals, is that unless 
> you're an 'advanced driver' you can't be a good driver.
> As if the two are incompatible.


I certainly have NOT said that.  However, taking an advanced course will 
either show you techniques you would benefit from, or at the very least will 
confirm you are a good driver.

I went to the IAM with well over a million miles accident free driving, yet 
learnt some really fantastic techniques.

-- 
MrBitsy
Rover 75 CDTi