Hi

A while ago I started getting knocking sounds with each rev of the
pedals, coming from the left side of the bike. I gave a good squirt of
grease, and that seemed to fix for a while.

The noise has come back and I'm wondering if I should be doing more?

have to admit that over 2 yrs and doing a lot of cycling, whilst I did
clean and re-lube the chain and gears etc, I didn't think to do any
cleaning of the bits where the pedal cranks go into the spindle -
there doesn't seem to be much to get access to.

Should I be washing this area as best as possible, degreasing and
regreasing? Or might 2yrs and 4000miles of neglect have done longer
term damage?

Found one online tutorial for cleaning the spindle bearing etc, but
looks like you need any number of special tools!

M

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:12:52 +0100, mr w wrote:

> Found one online tutorial for cleaning the spindle bearing etc, but
> looks like you need any number of special tools!

Mine need a special tool that nobody sells.  I found an old 8mm socket
though and shoved an allen key in it and it worked ok!

My pedal bearings were a bit beyond repair though by the time I got around
to it.  They have bush bearings and I'm not sure if they're supposed to be
'serviced' or just replaced when they wear out.

peter

mr w wrote:
> Hi
>
> A while ago I started getting knocking sounds with each rev of the
> pedals, coming from the left side of the bike. I gave a good squirt of
> grease, and that seemed to fix for a while.
>
> The noise has come back and I'm wondering if I should be doing more?
>
> have to admit that over 2 yrs and doing a lot of cycling, whilst I did
> clean and re-lube the chain and gears etc, I didn't think to do any
> cleaning of the bits where the pedal cranks go into the spindle -
> there doesn't seem to be much to get access to.
>
> Should I be washing this area as best as possible, degreasing and
> regreasing?

Greasing from the outside won't fix a bottom bracket, and too much liquid of 
any sort squirted around that area could flush grease from the insides.

> Or might 2yrs and 4000miles of neglect have done longer
> term damage?
>
> Found one online tutorial for cleaning the spindle bearing etc, but
> looks like you need any number of special tools!

You need to work out what it *isn't*, first of all.  Pedal?  Test with 
another pair of pedals if you have one.

Could be the crank.  Try tightening the crank.  If it comes loose again, by 
the way, then it should be replaced.

Quite sure it's on the left side?  Have you tried pedalling with one leg: 
left then right?

The bottom bracket may need servicing or replacing.  You can get tools for 
most cranks and BBs without having to pay big money.

Look up Sheldon Brown, Park Tools and manufacturer websites for 
instructions.

~PB

> Found one online tutorial for cleaning the spindle bearing etc, but
> looks like you need any number of special tools!
(1) - Crank puller to remove pedals.  When you've discovered how to use it 
without stripping threads etc. THEN comes the problem.  In the book it might say 
: "Now pull off the cranks using your special tool".  Unless you've taken them 
off before you'll probably find they won't budge no matter how hard you hit 
them.  For first time off I would leave the struggle to LBS.

(2) - The clunk /may possibly be/ fixable with adjustment of the retaining 
rings.  Grease is just a sort of painkiller for bearings, it doesn't get rid of 
the problem.  You won't be able to get at the beast until you've achieved (1). 
The bearings are probably sealed and you throw them away after 10,000ish miles. 
  They are easy to remove (with the tool) *provided* you know that one of the 
threads is left handed.  ISTR (but may be completely wrong) that they screw up 
in the direction the pedals rotate.  There are two lengths of crank as standard, 
make sure you get the right replacement.

PS If you say where you live, the Real World might just have somebody a couple 
of miles away with the tools and advice you need.



-- 
Peter (Prof) Fox
Multitude of things for beer, cycling, Morris and curiosities at 
<http://vulpeculox.net>

Peter Fox wrote:
>> Found one online tutorial for cleaning the spindle bearing etc, but
>> looks like you need any number of special tools!
> (1) - Crank puller to remove pedals.  When you've discovered how to
> use it without stripping threads etc. THEN comes the problem.  In the
> book it might say
>> "Now pull off the cranks using your special tool".  Unless you've
>> taken them
> off before you'll probably find they won't budge no matter how hard
> you hit them.  For first time off I would leave the struggle to LBS.

You should not have this problem when using a decent-length spanner or 
wrench with the crank remover.  Hitting the spanner with a club hammer will 
make it easier, but nothing mad should be required.

If the cranks are much easier to remove in future, you did not tighten them 
enough.

~PB

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:41:59 +0200
"Pete Biggs"  wrote:

> You should not have this problem when using a decent-length spanner
> or wrench with the crank remover.

Assuming that both crank and puller are of decent quality i.e. not made
of cheese and a good fit.  There's not really any point using a spanner
that's longer than the crank.

>  Hitting the spanner with a club
> hammer will make it easier, but nothing mad should be required.

Just stepping on the spanner should be enough - I don't think I've ever
had to do more than turn it /really hard/ by hand.  It's not a good
idea to hit anything that isn't designed for it.

Rob Morley  writes:

> Just stepping on the spanner should be enough - I don't think I've ever
> had to do more than turn it /really hard/ by hand.  It's not a good
> idea to hit anything that isn't designed for it.

Ask me again why I don't like fitting star-fangled nuts :-(


-dan

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:18:12 +0100
Daniel Barlow  wrote:

> Rob Morley  writes:
> 
> > Just stepping on the spanner should be enough - I don't think I've
> > ever had to do more than turn it /really hard/ by hand.  It's not a
> > good idea to hit anything that isn't designed for it.
> 
> Ask me again why I don't like fitting star-fangled nuts :-(
> 
They're easy.  Put the bolt through the plug and nut and turn it to
the end of the thread or just clear of the plug. Place the assembly on
the end of the steerer and gently tap the bolt until the plug is just
fully seated in the steerer.  Remove bolt and plug, fit stem.  Done.

Rob Morley  writes:

> They're easy.  Put the bolt through the plug and nut and turn it to
> the end of the thread or just clear of the plug. Place the assembly on
> the end of the steerer and gently tap the bolt until the plug is just
> fully seated in the steerer.  Remove bolt and plug, fit stem.  Done.

I can only conclude that the SFN I have is oversized, or that both the
steerers I've tried to fit it in have thicker than average walls,
because this totally doesn't describe my experience.  "Gently tap the
bolt until the plug is just fully seated in the steerer" was in those
cases not unlike an instruction to "gently tap the road surface with
your foot until the hole is deep enough to bury a rabbit".

Yes, both were 1 1/8" steerers.  I put an expander bung in instead, it
seemed a much less barbaric way of doing things.


-dan

Daniel Barlow wrote:
> Rob Morley  writes:
>
>> They're easy.  Put the bolt through the plug and nut and turn it to
>> the end of the thread or just clear of the plug. Place the assembly
>> on the end of the steerer and gently tap the bolt until the plug is
>> just fully seated in the steerer.  Remove bolt and plug, fit stem.
>> Done.
>
> I can only conclude that the SFN I have is oversized, or that both the
> steerers I've tried to fit it in have thicker than average walls,
> because this totally doesn't describe my experience.

Nor mine.  I much prefer to fit a bung.  SFNs are nasty little things used 
by bike manufacturers to pinch a few pennies.

~PB

Rob Morley wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:41:59 +0200
> "Pete Biggs" 
> wrote:
>
>> You should not have this problem when using a decent-length spanner
>> or wrench with the crank remover.
>
> Assuming that both crank and puller are of decent quality i.e. not
> made of cheese and a good fit.  There's not really any point using a
> spanner that's longer than the crank.
>
>>  Hitting the spanner with a club
>> hammer will make it easier, but nothing mad should be required.
>
> Just stepping on the spanner should be enough - I don't think I've
> ever had to do more than turn it /really hard/ by hand.  It's not a
> good idea to hit anything that isn't designed for it.

It don't believe it will do any harm in this case, as long as everything 
fits well.

~PB

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:43:18 +0200
"Pete Biggs"  wrote:

> Daniel Barlow wrote:

> > I can only conclude that the SFN I have is oversized, or that both
> > the steerers I've tried to fit it in have thicker than average
> > walls, because this totally doesn't describe my experience.
> 
> Nor mine.  I much prefer to fit a bung.  SFNs are nasty little things
> used by bike manufacturers to pinch a few pennies.
> 
They work fine IME,  I don't see the case to over-engineer them.  At a
pinch you can get away without using one (except with carbon, where the
expanding plug type is required anyway).

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:33:45 +0100
Daniel Barlow  wrote:

> I can only conclude that the SFN I have is oversized, or that both the
> steerers I've tried to fit it in have thicker than average walls,
> because this totally doesn't describe my experience.  "Gently tap the
> bolt until the plug is just fully seated in the steerer" was in those
> cases not unlike an instruction to "gently tap the road surface with
> your foot until the hole is deep enough to bury a rabbit".
> 
Did you fit the bolt and tap that, rather than trying to press the SFN
in unattached?

Rob Morley wrote:

> They work fine IME,  I don't see the case to over-engineer them.  At a
> pinch you can get away without using one (except with carbon, where
> the expanding plug type is required anyway).

An SFN will only work fine if you have one that fits properly.  The trouble 
is that steerer internal diameters are not standardised.

~PB

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:06:17 +0200
"Pete Biggs"  wrote:

> Rob Morley wrote:
> 
> > They work fine IME,  I don't see the case to over-engineer them.
> > At a pinch you can get away without using one (except with carbon,
> > where the expanding plug type is required anyway).
> 
> An SFN will only work fine if you have one that fits properly.  The
> trouble is that steerer internal diameters are not standardised.
> 
There should be enough flex in the nut that it will conform to a
thicker-walled steerer, unless it squashes up so far that the petals
touch each other in which case a bit of judicious grinding is
required.

Rob Morley wrote:

>> An SFN will only work fine if you have one that fits properly.  The
>> trouble is that steerer internal diameters are not standardised.
>>
> There should be enough flex in the nut that it will conform to a
> thicker-walled steerer, unless it squashes up so far that the petals
> touch each other in which case a bit of judicious grinding is
> required.

That's what I thought as well.  There should be enough flex.  But there 
wasn't.

~PB

>
>You need to work out what it *isn't*, first of all.  Pedal?  Test with 
>another pair of pedals if you have one.
>
>Could be the crank.  Try tightening the crank.  If it comes loose again, by 
>the way, then it should be replaced.
>
>Quite sure it's on the left side?  Have you tried pedalling with one leg: 
>left then right?
>
>The bottom bracket may need servicing or replacing.  You can get tools for 
>most cranks and BBs without having to pay big money.
>
>Look up Sheldon Brown, Park Tools and manufacturer websites for 
>instructions.

Thanks for all the help peeps. I decided that as time is in short
supply, I'd drop it off to one of the good LBS in Colchester, esp
after having a close look at the chain and seeing that even to my
novice eye that some of the links were looking a little loose.

The guy at the LBS was helpful and reckoned teh bottom bracket
certainly needed looking at, a new chain, and he reckoned a new
chainset (he pointed out how many of the teeth etc were out of true).

Given that time is in short suply, a choice of spending time servicing
the bike, or getting it done at the LBS and spending my time riding
the bike, I'll go for the latter until I reach retirement age, when
saving money will be moer important!

M

Rob Morley wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:06:17 +0200
> "Pete Biggs" 
> wrote:
>
>> Rob Morley wrote:
>>
>>> They work fine IME,  I don't see the case to over-engineer them.
>>> At a pinch you can get away without using one (except with carbon,
>>> where the expanding plug type is required anyway).
>>
>> An SFN will only work fine if you have one that fits properly.  The
>> trouble is that steerer internal diameters are not standardised.
>>
> There should be enough flex in the nut that it will conform to a
> thicker-walled steerer, unless it squashes up so far that the petals
> touch each other in which case a bit of judicious grinding is
> required.

This thread has inspired me to have another go at fitting a SFN in a 1" 
alloy steerer.  I tried with my new forks, and succeeded - but only after 
some outrageous bashing.  I really hope the shock hasn't done any harm.  I 
don't like the idea of hitting anything on a bike that hard.

It saved all of 8 grams (compared to the expander I was going to use).

~PB

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:05:02 +0200
"Pete Biggs"  wrote:

> This thread has inspired me to have another go at fitting a SFN in a
> 1" alloy steerer.  I tried with my new forks, and succeeded - but
> only after some outrageous bashing.  I really hope the shock hasn't
> done any harm.  I don't like the idea of hitting anything on a bike
> that hard.
> 
I wouldn't worry about the shock so much as the scoring of the steerer
- although it's not highly stressed at that point, deep scratches act
as stress raisers that could eventually result in fatigue failure.
Steel steerers are traditionally 16 gauge / 1/16" / 1.6mm (funny how it
all comes together at that particular size) thick, alloy will be
considerably thicker and also quite a lot softer. As I said, you really
need to grind the SFN if you can't get one the right size.

Rob Morley wrote:
> I wouldn't worry about the shock so much as the scoring of the steerer
> - although it's not highly stressed at that point, deep scratches act
> as stress raisers that could eventually result in fatigue failure.
> Steel steerers are traditionally 16 gauge / 1/16" / 1.6mm (funny how
> it all comes together at that particular size) thick, alloy will be
> considerably thicker and also quite a lot softer. As I said, you
> really need to grind the SFN if you can't get one the right size.

I didn't fit the nut deeply enough for the scoring to be a problem, 
hopefully.

Could shock damage the bonding between the alloy steerer and the rest of the 
forks?

~PB

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:17:30 +0200
"Pete Biggs"  wrote:

> I didn't fit the nut deeply enough for the scoring to be a problem, 
> hopefully.

The most highly stressed bit of the top of the steerer is where the
stem meets the headset - if you didn't go that far it should be fine.
> 
> Could shock damage the bonding between the alloy steerer and the rest
> of the forks?
> 
Not easily, I think.