On my early morning ride on Monday morning I had a minor accident. I was off 
road but on a well known track which has a few very minor problem patches.

So I wasn't really concentrating -- just "enjoying" the morning fine 
drizzle -- when I suddenly realised I was into a skidding slide (I am on semi 
slick M+'s). I actually can't tell anyone about it in reality.

But here is what I remember and what are the after effects.

So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at all. --  
my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off and I picked them 
up.

I imagine that I was very near the end of the track cos I think I walked to 
the road and then cycled on with my bits and pieces from my helmet draped over 
an arm. It is not far to a level crossing where I had to stop for the 
customary 5 minutes and as I stood there I realised that I couldn't remember 
anything about the "spill" at all --- other than I had had one!

As I waited for the crossing to open, I reattached the various bits and pieces 
to my hat and rode on home -- another couple of miles. It was quite funny 'cos 
I just couldn't think what had actually happened. ( I still can't). I got home 
ok and had no reason to suspect my safety on road.

By lunch time I was feeling decidedly off colour and I had a thumping 
headache. I persevered but it was after 8 pm that I was stirring reasonably 
normally. Then I happened to check my helmet.

Now this is not a pro or anti helmet diatribe  ( so don't let it develop that 
way)    but

I found that the  right hand side of the helmet fabric had been broken in four 
places -- right through several of the ribs to nearly the top of it.
It was only then  -- and indeed now at the very late hour of 2 am that I 
realised that I had been quite heavily concussed, (probably for the first time 
in my life at 71).

Looking back at the last several hours I realise that my headache  and my 
lack of awareness and a sort of "state of none worry -- can't remember what 
happened 5 minutes ago in the skid."  are probably indicative of quite a 
severe blow to the right side of my head.

What is worrying,  is that I cycled home in a concussed condition without 
being aware of it -- without any worries -- on a fairly busy road. I have a 
sort of vague memory of doing that -- but it is a section of road that I ride 
on daily. Right now I have no real memory of that short journey. -- but I 
normally wouldn't -- it is a daily route  ----

But I have this hazy gap from some time before I skidded ( I.e. where I can 
actually remember this mornings ride to about a couple of hours after getting 
home. it isn't really a "gap"  -- just a period of time when I know I was 
functioning but just can't be specific about it.

 I have a nice bruise developing on my right thigh and a heavily grazed right 
elbow!

It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can remember "knowing 
that I was going to come off the bike"


Hmmmm!



-- 
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

On Sep 23, 10:57 am, "Trevor A Panther" 
wrote:
> On my early morning ride on Monday morning I had a minor accident. I was off
> road but on a well known track which has a few very minor problem patches.

[...]

> It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can remember "knowing
> that I was going to come off the bike"

Sounds like a bog-standard mild concussion to me, and a rather similar
experience to my own crash some time ago. I guess you will get the
standard "go and see a doctor" advice, and it is probably sound. They
won't actually do anything though. They didn't even realise anything
was wrong with me at all, and that was in the USA where I would have
expected a reasonably high standard of care (given that I was
insured).

James

Trevor A Panther wrote:

> It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can remember
> "knowing that I was going to come off the bike"

Heheheh, welcome to the world of crashing ... ;)

What you describe is how many people react to a mild concussion, knock
to the head, level of shock etc.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it, just get on.  Take a couple of
headache pills if you think they might help, but relax as much as you
can.

It's when you also start to feel dizzy and nauseous that you need to
worry a little.  ;)

-- 
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'
ebay stuff   http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/paul-xxx

Trevor A Panther wrote:

> What is worrying,  is that I cycled home in a concussed condition
> without being aware of it -- without any worries -- on a fairly busy
> road. 

Shock & concussion can be strange things with the time effects.  When I
was taken out a few years ago (by a car spinning out from its own
accident) I ended up badly concussed.  I am reliably told that in the
ambulance on the way to hospital I was having a spirited argument with
one of the paramedics about the merits of recumbents (sounds like me!
;-)).  Next day I could remember /nothing/ from beyond a little before
the accident, and I was a complete blob for the next week and could
hardly get out of bed.
Back at uni a friend had had a few drinks at lunchtime and hopped over a
wall... to find a 20 foot drop on the other side.  He picked himself up
and laughed it off and seemed to be completely normal.  Remained okay
the next day, went back to look at the fall,,, went into shock /after/
looking at it, bedridden for 2 days.

So it is indeed worrying that you cycled home, but not actually as
worrying as you might initially think.  The body seems to have a "pick
up and carry on" mode it can use in the short term, and live to regret
it all later.

Pete.
-- 
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 GMT, Trevor A Panther wrote:

> On my early morning ride on Monday morning I had a minor accident. I was off 
> road but on a well known track which has a few very minor problem patches.
> 
> So I wasn't really concentrating -- just "enjoying" the morning fine 
> drizzle -- when I suddenly realised I was into a skidding slide (I am on semi 
> slick M+'s). I actually can't tell anyone about it in reality.
> 
> But here is what I remember and what are the after effects.
> 
> So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at all. --  
> my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off and I picked them 
> up.
> 

Sounds like a rotational injury - you, apart from forward motion, just fell
over, right?  Head hit the track from standing height or less (if you fell
on the "up" side)? 

Is the other side of the helmet unmarked?  Were the straps on good and
tight?  Any marks or damage on the forward edge of the visor?

"Trevor A Panther"  wrote in message 
news:f2YBk.61608$E41.14154@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> On my early morning ride on Monday morning I had a minor accident. I was 
> off road but on a well known track which has a few very minor problem 
> patches.
>
> So I wasn't really concentrating -- just "enjoying" the morning fine 
> drizzle -- when I suddenly realised I was into a skidding slide (I am on 
> semi slick M+'s). I actually can't tell anyone about it in reality.




> It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can remember 
> "knowing that I was going to come off the bike"
>
>
> Hmmmm!
>


An exact parallel of my experience a few years ago coming off in autumn 
leaves in Richmond park, complete with broken helmet but minus my 24 hours 
in hospital under observation after my GP friend took one look at me and got 
worried.

the memory of the actual accident came back over several years .

pk

_ wrote:

> Sounds like a rotational injury 

Which in turn sounds like rather dubious conjecture TBH, given the lack
of facts that even the man it happened to can supply.

Could just as well be a straight bounce from what we know, and since
what we know is limited I don't see much point in trying to read any
more into it.

Pete.
-- 
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

> the memory of the actual accident came back over several years .
> 
> pk

that is the bit I was waiting for someone else to add.
I had a smash  in a car . The memory of the few seconds leading up to 
the crash took about 3 months to come back.  At first I could recall 
only a series of flashes, like photographs, of the most shocking images.
It surprises me that although I was out cold for 25mins I did eventually 
recover the memory of the whole event, although other people who would 
seem to have less trauma get more permanent loss. My wife says I behaved 
oddly for several months after the event.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:41:05 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:

> _ wrote:
> 
>> Sounds like a rotational injury 
> 
> Which in turn sounds like rather dubious conjecture TBH, given the lack
> of facts that even the man it happened to can supply.
> 

He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
wish to forestall this inquiry?

_ wrote:

> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
> wish to forestall this inquiry?

Given the information supplied abut the specifics being /remarkably/
woolly, what are you going to learn that's actually *hard* data?

Even if Trevor could remember it well you'd be in the realms of
arm-waving speculation.  So what are you actually going to come to
that's any sort of conclusion?

Pete.
-- 
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:02:00 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:

> _ wrote:
> 
>> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
>> wish to forestall this inquiry?
> 
> Given the information supplied abut the specifics being /remarkably/
> woolly, what are you going to learn that's actually *hard* data?
> 
> Even if Trevor could remember it well you'd be in the realms of
> arm-waving speculation.  

Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either

a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or

b) be answered by memory from well before the event.

So the issue of memory being obscured by the incident probably a red
herring.

As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
gathering such evidence.

_ wrote:

> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
> 
> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
> 
> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.

"you, apart from forward motion, just fell over, right?"

So how does looking at the helmet resolve that?  How does memory well
before the event resolve that?

"Is the other side of the helmet unmarked?"

Sure, you can find out by looking at the helmet, but all that tells you
is there was only an impact on one side.  Not actually enough to draw
anything useful from.

"Were the straps on good and tight?"

So how does looking at the helmet resolve that?  How does memory well
before the event resolve that in any way conclusively?

> As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
> gathering such evidence.

because as illustrated above, it isn't actually much use.  What you can
conclude is that his helmet struck something on one side, and /that's
about it/.  So I'm taking issue partly because it's a waste of time, and
more to the point I suspect (not 101% sure, but strongly suspect with
your opening gambit of rotational injuries) you're building up to a bit
of a witch-hunting side show against helmets.

I have no love for helmets as is a matter of public record.  But since
Trevor states "Now this is not a pro or anti helmet diatribe  ( so don't
let it develop that way)" it doesn't appear to be doing anyone much a
service.

Pete.
-- 
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Sep 23, 2:57 am, "Trevor A Panther" 
wrote:

>
> Hmmmm!
>
> --
> Trevor A Panther
> In South Yorkshire,
> England, United Kingdom.www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

A chilling story
Get well soon Trevor.
Hope you don't need them but, NHS direct is your friend. 08454647

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:47:57 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:

> _ wrote:
> 
>> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
>> 
>> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
>> 
>> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.
> 
> "you, apart from forward motion, just fell over, right?"
> 
> So how does looking at the helmet resolve that?  

Don't play silly buggers, of course it is not a question that looking at
the helmet can resolve.  

> How does memory well
> before the event resolve that?
> 

He's remembered well enough that he knew he was going to come off, and that
it was a sliding fall.  I was asking in case there was any possibility it
was anythiong OTHER than a just-falling-over event; perhaps there was
someone else on the track that he ran into, or that he had a fork collapse,
etcetera.

> "Is the other side of the helmet unmarked?"
> 
> Sure, you can find out by looking at the helmet, but all that tells you
> is there was only an impact on one side.  Not actually enough to draw
> anything useful from.
> 

*Nothing* useful?  Such confidence before you even see the data -
remarkable.


> "Were the straps on good and tight?"
> 
> So how does looking at the helmet resolve that?  

Don't play silly buggers, of course it is not a question that looking at
the helmet can resolve.  


> How does memory well
> before the event resolve that in any way conclusively?
>

It is possible that the time when he put his helmet on, and his usual
method and degree of tightness are something that he can remember.  If he
can't, so be it; I see no harm in asking.

> As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
>> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
>> gathering such evidence.
> 
> because as illustrated above, it isn't actually much use.  

You "illustration" seems in part to be based on deliberate mis-reading
and/or mis-understanding the questions.  I find it questionable at best.

> What you can
> conclude is that his helmet struck something on one side, and /that's
> about it/.  So I'm taking issue partly because it's a waste of time, 

Whose time - yours?  

> and
> more to the point I suspect (not 101% sure, but strongly suspect with
> your opening gambit of rotational injuries) you're building up to a bit
> of a witch-hunting side show against helmets.
> 

Well, there's no pejorative pre-judgement there, is there.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 GMT, "Trevor A Panther"
 said in
<f2YBk.61608$E41.14154@text.news.virginmedia.com>:

- 8< ---------------------

Heh! Like the others have said, you suffered a Traumatic Brain
Injury (TM), aka concussion.  I recommend paracetamol, water and a
bath.

Me, I got lost today and ended up on sodding Oxford Street.  I'd not
quite offer to swap, but not far off.

Guy
-- 
May contain traces of irony.  Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Paul - xxx wrote:
> Trevor A Panther wrote:
> 
>> It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can remember
>> "knowing that I was going to come off the bike"
> 
> Heheheh, welcome to the world of crashing ... ;)
> 
> What you describe is how many people react to a mild concussion, knock
> to the head, level of shock etc.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't worry about it, just get on.  Take a couple of
> headache pills if you think they might help, but relax as much as you
> can.
> 
> It's when you also start to feel dizzy and nauseous that you need to
> worry a little.  ;)

Yeah, thats when they x-ray your noggin and find the crack.  Trust me on 
this...

terryj wrote:
> 
>> the memory of the actual accident came back over several years .
>>
>> pk
> 
> that is the bit I was waiting for someone else to add.
> I had a smash  in a car . The memory of the few seconds leading up to 
> the crash took about 3 months to come back.  At first I could recall 
> only a series of flashes, like photographs, of the most shocking images.
> It surprises me that although I was out cold for 25mins I did eventually 
> recover the memory of the whole event, although other people who would 
> seem to have less trauma get more permanent loss. My wife says I behaved 
> oddly for several months after the event.

<puzzled> How did she notice?

Tosspot wrote:

> Paul - xxx wrote:
> > Trevor A Panther wrote:
> > 
> > > It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can
> > > remember "knowing that I was going to come off the bike"
> > 
> > It's when you also start to feel dizzy and nauseous that you need to
> > worry a little.  ;)
> 
> Yeah, thats when they x-ray your noggin and find the crack.  Trust me
> on this...

LOL, BTDTGTTS ... ;)

-- 
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'
ebay stuff   http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/paul-xxx

On Sep 23, 2:18 pm, _ 
wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:41:05 퍝, Peter Clinch wrote:
> > _ wrote:
>
> >> Sounds like a rotational injury
>
> > Which in turn sounds like rather dubious conjecture TBH, given the lack
> > of facts that even the man it happened to can supply.
>
> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
> wish to forestall this inquiry?

You're a cunt.

On Sep 23, 3:08 pm, _ 
wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:02:00 퍝, Peter Clinch wrote:
> > _ wrote:
>
> >> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
> >> wish to forestall this inquiry?
>
> > Given the information supplied abut the specifics being /remarkably/
> > woolly, what are you going to learn that's actually *hard* data?
>
> > Even if Trevor could remember it well you'd be in the realms of
> > arm-waving speculation.  
>
> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
>
> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
>
> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.
>
> So the issue of memory being obscured by the incident probably a red
> herring.
>
> As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
> gathering such evidence.

You're a cunt.

On Sep 23, 4:41 pm, _ 
wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:47:57 퍝, Peter Clinch wrote:
> > _ wrote:
>
> >> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
>
> >> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
>
> >> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.
>
> > "you, apart from forward motion, just fell over, right?"
>
> > So how does looking at the helmet resolve that?  
>
> Don't play silly buggers, of course it is not a question that looking at
> the helmet can resolve.  
>
> > How does memory well
> > before the event resolve that?
>
> He's remembered well enough that he knew he was going to come off, and that
> it was a sliding fall.  I was asking in case there was any possibility it
> was anythiong OTHER than a just-falling-over event; perhaps there was
> someone else on the track that he ran into, or that he had a fork collapse,
> etcetera.
>
> > "Is the other side of the helmet unmarked?"
>
> > Sure, you can find out by looking at the helmet, but all that tells you
> > is there was only an impact on one side.  Not actually enough to draw
> > anything useful from.
>
> *Nothing* useful?  Such confidence before you even see the data -
> remarkable.
>
> > "Were the straps on good and tight?"
>
> > So how does looking at the helmet resolve that?  
>
> Don't play silly buggers, of course it is not a question that looking at
> the helmet can resolve.  
>
> > How does memory well
> > before the event resolve that in any way conclusively?
>
> It is possible that the time when he put his helmet on, and his usual
> method and degree of tightness are something that he can remember.  If he
> can't, so be it; I see no harm in asking.
>
> > As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
> >> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
> >> gathering such evidence.
>
> > because as illustrated above, it isn't actually much use.  
>
> You "illustration" seems in part to be based on deliberate mis-reading
> and/or mis-understanding the questions.  I find it questionable at best> > What you can
> > conclude is that his helmet struck something on one side, and /that's
> > about it/.  So I'm taking issue partly because it's a waste of time,
>
> Whose time - yours?  
>
> > and
> > more to the point I suspect (not 101% sure, but strongly suspect with
> > your opening gambit of rotational injuries) you're building up to a bit
> > of a witch-hunting side show against helmets.
>
> Well, there's no pejorative pre-judgement there, is there.

You're a cunt.

On Sep 23, 12:14 pm, _ 
wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 GMT, Trevor A Panther wrote:
> > On my early morning ride on Monday morning I had a minor accident. I was off
> > road but on a well known track which has a few very minor problem patches.
>
> > So I wasn't really concentrating -- just "enjoying" the morning fine
> > drizzle -- when I suddenly realised I was into a skidding slide (I am on semi
> > slick M's). I actually can't tell anyone about it in reality.
>
> > But here is what I remember and what are the after effects.
>
> > So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at all. --  
> > my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off and I picked them
> > up.
>
> Sounds like a rotational injury - you, apart from forward motion, just fell
> over, right?  Head hit the track from standing height or less (if you fell
> on the "up" side)?
>
> Is the other side of the helmet unmarked?  Were the straps on good and
> tight?  Any marks or damage on the forward edge of the visor?

You're a cunt.

On Sep 23, 5:25 pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
 wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 GMT, "Trevor A Panther"
>  said in
> <f2YBk.61608$E41.14...@text.news.virginmedia.com>:
>
> - 8< ---------------------
>
> Heh! Like the others have said, you suffered a Traumatic Brain
> Injury (TM), aka concussion.  I recommend paracetamol, water and a
> bath.
>
> Me, I got lost today and ended up on sodding Oxford Street.  I'd not
> quite offer to swap, but not far off.
>
> Guy
> --
> May contain traces of irony.  Contents liable to settle after posting.http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
>
> 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

You're a pompous, lying, murdering, motorist-hating cunt.

"_"  wrote in message 
news:1x6cc52hthjl$.1x7lhff0nn21n$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:02:00 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>> _ wrote:
>>
>>> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
>>> wish to forestall this inquiry?
>>
>> Given the information supplied abut the specifics being /remarkably/
>> woolly, what are you going to learn that's actually *hard* data?
>>
>> Even if Trevor could remember it well you'd be in the realms of
>> arm-waving speculation.
>
> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
>
> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
>
> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.
>
> So the issue of memory being obscured by the incident probably a red
> herring.
>
> As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
> gathering such evidence.
>
>
ooops   ---- your mailing is all conjecture. My helmet was on tight! It always 
is - otherwise no point in wearing it!

The damage is all on one side and is indeed fairly localised.

As I look at the helmet in my hands at this very moment the damage is on the 
right side with 2 huge cracks in the main fabric (there are 2 other smaller 
ones) located in a position on my head which is just above and the to rear of 
my right ear.

To my understanding there was absolutely no "rotational" injury -- my neck and 
upper body around my shoulders seem to be totally injury free.  my right hip 
is hurting a bit today and I suspect that it and my head ( encased in a 
helmet) were the only parts of me to be in real impact.

Although I cannot remember the incident in any detail. I was not going fast, 
on a narrowish 2 stripe path. I think the skid occurred as I traversed the 
grass strip between the two. As I said previously my memory tells me that I 
knew that I was going to come off!
Hopefully that made the event less harmful..

Anyway more experience today has been such that I didn't ride. Well I did but 
turned right around after about 200 metres and when back home. My balance was 
all to c*ck and I felt distinctly "woozy". Walking at a normal pace is Ok but 
any sudden  action seems to have an immediate and opposite reaction!

Like I said I believe that this is the first time I have been concussed and it 
has been, is an new experience and my brain was surely effected both in the 
short term ( to get up and get home) and in the longer term to a slower 
recovery phase. I am distinctly very ready for bed now at 9.30 pm and 
hopefully I will be more normal in the morning.



-- 
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Nuxx Bar wrote:

8<...

                                _____________________
                    /|  /| |   |                     |
                    ||__|| |   |  Please don't feed  |
                   /   O O\__  |   the trolls...     |
                  /          \ |         thank you.  |
                 /      \     \|_____________________|
                /   _    \     \      ||
               /    |\____\     \     ||
              /     | | | |\____/     ||
             /       \|_|_|/   |     _||
            /  /  \            |____| ||
           /   |   |           |      --|
           |   |   |           |____  --|
    * _    |  |_|_|_|          |     \-/
*-- _--\ _ \                  |      ||
   /  _     \\        |        /      `
*  /   \_ /- |       |       |
   *      ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________



-- 
My hearts numbered beat            |       Greetings from Birmingham, UK
Still echoes in this empty room    |All about me: www.nervouscyclist.org
Fear wells in me, but nothing seems|      Is your ISP pimping your data?
Enough to defend      Dave Matthews|                  www.badphorm.co.uk

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Nuxx Bar wrote:

> On Sep 23, 12:14 pm, _ 
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 GMT, Trevor A Panther wrote:
>>> On my early morning ride on Monday morning I had a minor accident. I was off
>>> road but on a well known track which has a few very minor problem patches.
>>
>>> So I wasn't really concentrating -- just "enjoying" the morning fine
>>> drizzle -- when I suddenly realised I was into a skidding slide (I am on semi
>>> slick M+'s). I actually can't tell anyone about it in reality.
>>
>>> But here is what I remember and what are the after effects.
>>
>>> So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at all. --  
>>> my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off and I picked them
>>> up.
>>
>> Sounds like a rotational injury - you, apart from forward motion, just fell
>> over, right?  Head hit the track from standing height or less (if you fell
>> on the "up" side)?
>>
>> Is the other side of the helmet unmarked?  Were the straps on good and
>> tight?  Any marks or damage on the forward edge of the visor?
>
> You're a cunt.

DAMN THIS GUY IS GOOD.

tom

-- 
Know who said that? Fucking Terrorvision, that's who. -- D

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 GMT
"Trevor A Panther"  wrote:

> So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at
> all. -- my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off
> and I picked them up.
> 
What are these various bits and pieces?

I got a similar concussion last year.

On my second ride after recovering from an accident in which I was
struck by a car and suffered a serious hand injury, I came to grief on
freshly painted road-lines on the wet. About 9 months or so ago. I can
clearly remember falling and so on. A van-driver brought me home. My
helmet was shattered on one side but I was not aware of any head
impact. I became confused for about 2 hours and was seen in casualty.

This was discussed ad nauseam on this newsgroup, but the helmet damage
pattern made it clear that my helmet had been dragged on the road,
jerked my head and concussed me.

Anyway I'm fine.

I doubt that the helmet stopped any big bang.

I've looked into all the evidence etc. and before I start getting
medical lectures from anyone, I'm a pathologist.

My hand is fine for cycling though I can't make a proper full fist. I
have a knackered joint in one finger but it functions perfectly for
practical purposes and I cannot fully straighten my index finger, nor
fully flex it due to a tendon repair, but for practical purposes it
too is fine.

The rehab was not fun however.

Quoting  Rob Morley  :
>"Trevor A Panther"  wrote:
>>So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at
>>all. -- my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off
>>and I picked them up.
>What are these various bits and pieces?

Headlight? Mirror? Sheldon Brown Eagle?
-- 
David Damerell  Kill the tomato!
Today is Friday, September.

On 24 Sep 2008 18:22:45 +0100 (BST)
David Damerell  wrote:

> Quoting  Rob Morley  :
> >"Trevor A Panther"  wrote:
> >>So I slid out on my side  and picked myself up -- not really hurt at
> >>all. -- my visor and various attachments to my helmet had come off
> >>and I picked them up.
> >What are these various bits and pieces?
> 
> Headlight? Mirror? Sheldon Brown Eagle?

I know the sort of thing that people attach to helmets - I was after
specifics.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:57:31 +0000, Trevor A Panther wrote:

> It is strange  --  I can't remember the incident but I can remember "knowing 
> that I was going to come off the bike"

I remember 'knowing' I was going to fall after being hit by a bus but have
no idea what actually happened. 
Rode on and did half a days work with a broken scaphoid.  I only went to
hospital because my shoulder was hurting!

About 3 months later I slid on a muddy corner (on slicks!) and had the "I
know this is going to end up with me off the bike" feeling but no
recollection of the actual fall - maybe my mind blanks out these things.

It is an awful feeling though, even when it only results in you ending up
upright in some grass off the track.

peter

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:53:07 GMT, Trevor A Panther wrote:

> "_"  wrote in message 
> news:1x6cc52hthjl$.1x7lhff0nn21n$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:02:00 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:
>>
>>> _ wrote:
>>>
>>>> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
>>>> wish to forestall this inquiry?
>>>
>>> Given the information supplied abut the specifics being /remarkably/
>>> woolly, what are you going to learn that's actually *hard* data?
>>>
>>> Even if Trevor could remember it well you'd be in the realms of
>>> arm-waving speculation.
>>
>> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
>>
>> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
>>
>> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.
>>
>> So the issue of memory being obscured by the incident probably a red
>> herring.
>>
>> As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
>> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
>> gathering such evidence.
>>
>>
> ooops   ---- your mailing is all conjecture. My helmet was on tight! It always 
> is - otherwise no point in wearing it!
> 
> The damage is all on one side and is indeed fairly localised.
> 
> As I look at the helmet in my hands at this very moment the damage is on the 
> right side with 2 huge cracks in the main fabric (there are 2 other smaller 
> ones) located in a position on my head which is just above and the to rear of 
> my right ear.
> 
> To my understanding there was absolutely no "rotational" injury -- my neck and 
> upper body around my shoulders seem to be totally injury free.  my right hip 
> is hurting a bit today and I suspect that it and my head ( encased in a 
> helmet) were the only parts of me to be in real impact.

The rotational injury is not to your trunk/arm/shoulder, but to your brain;
it takes far less energy to have brain damage (a concussion is a mild,
hopefully temporary type of brain damage) due to rotation than due to
direct impact.

> 
> Although I cannot remember the incident in any detail. I was not going fast, 
> on a narrowish 2 stripe path. I think the skid occurred as I traversed the 
> grass strip between the two. As I said previously my memory tells me that I 
> knew that I was going to come off!
> Hopefully that made the event less harmful..

Well, less speed probably did; were you to have fallen from
sitting-on-a-cycle height at a speed of zero the impact energy would have
been quite small - more or less the same as if you tripped and fell from
standing.  If there was an injury due to rotation from the helmet grabbing
the surface you hit that the faster you were going the greater that energy
would be.

"Knowing you were going to come off" - some have claimed that given
warining they can affect the way they fall and thus reduce injury, but I
have no confidence in this either way.

Of course, this is modified by the friction between the helmet and the
surface.  You say you were wearing a visor, which is why I asked if it
showed signs of dmage - any pointy bits might have dug in and made the
rotation worse.  The grassy bit may have had a higher friction that the
other bits of the path - hard to say; is there a mark where you hit?

You also say it was on tight - if you were hit by a brick dropped directly
on top of your head (a direct impact; fortunately uncommon) this could be
good, but if the helmet wants to twist suddenly and your head does not,
tight straps mean your head looses.

"_"  wrote in message 
news:y3ykuteipq3e$.cxxm9z6v1o4g.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:53:07 GMT, Trevor A Panther wrote:
>
>> "_"  wrote in message
>> news:1x6cc52hthjl$.1x7lhff0nn21n$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:02:00 +0100, Peter Clinch wrote:
>>>
>>>> _ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> He was asked to supply more which would tend to confirm or deny - do you
>>>>> wish to forestall this inquiry?
>>>>
>>>> Given the information supplied abut the specifics being /remarkably/
>>>> woolly, what are you going to learn that's actually *hard* data?
>>>>
>>>> Even if Trevor could remember it well you'd be in the realms of
>>>> arm-waving speculation.
>>>
>>> Well, the questions asked were of the sort that can either
>>>
>>> a) be answered by looking at the helmet now; or
>>>
>>> b) be answered by memory from well before the event.
>>>
>>> So the issue of memory being obscured by the incident probably a red
>>> herring.
>>>
>>> As for the conclusion, well, that would rather depend on the evidence -
>>> some of which we haven't got.  I fail to see why you are taking issue with
>>> gathering such evidence.
>>>
>>>
>> ooops   ---- your mailing is all conjecture. My helmet was on tight! It 
>> always
>> is - otherwise no point in wearing it!
>>
>> The damage is all on one side and is indeed fairly localised.
>>
>> As I look at the helmet in my hands at this very moment the damage is on 
>> the
>> right side with 2 huge cracks in the main fabric (there are 2 other smaller
>> ones) located in a position on my head which is just above and the to rear 
>> of
>> my right ear.
>>
>> To my understanding there was absolutely no "rotational" injury -- my neck 
>> and
>> upper body around my shoulders seem to be totally injury free.  my right 
>> hip
>> is hurting a bit today and I suspect that it and my head ( encased in a
>> helmet) were the only parts of me to be in real impact.
>
> The rotational injury is not to your trunk/arm/shoulder, but to your brain;
> it takes far less energy to have brain damage (a concussion is a mild,
> hopefully temporary type of brain damage) due to rotation than due to
> direct impact.
>
>>
>> Although I cannot remember the incident in any detail. I was not going 
>> fast,
>> on a narrowish 2 stripe path. I think the skid occurred as I traversed the
>> grass strip between the two. As I said previously my memory tells me that I
>> knew that I was going to come off!
>> Hopefully that made the event less harmful..
>
> Well, less speed probably did; were you to have fallen from
> sitting-on-a-cycle height at a speed of zero the impact energy would have
> been quite small - more or less the same as if you tripped and fell from
> standing.  If there was an injury due to rotation from the helmet grabbing
> the surface you hit that the faster you were going the greater that energy
> would be.
>
> "Knowing you were going to come off" - some have claimed that given
> warining they can affect the way they fall and thus reduce injury, but I
> have no confidence in this either way.
>
> Of course, this is modified by the friction between the helmet and the
> surface.  You say you were wearing a visor, which is why I asked if it
> showed signs of dmage - any pointy bits might have dug in and made the
> rotation worse.  The grassy bit may have had a higher friction that the
> other bits of the path - hard to say; is there a mark where you hit?
>
> You also say it was on tight - if you were hit by a brick dropped directly
> on top of your head (a direct impact; fortunately uncommon) this could be
> good, but if the helmet wants to twist suddenly and your head does not,
> tight straps mean your head looses.

I am stopping this -- the visor is a flip down transparent visor  --a smoked 
one in the summer and yellow one in the winter. It has no pointy bits  at 
ll  --  and is a smooth  surfaced, curved  screen that flips down to cover the 
upper part of my face, bridging my nose and providing a wind and fly 
protection.  Surprisingly in heavy fly areas, in European touring, wearing the 
visor flipped down diverts flies from entering my open mouth!

Now stop trying to be a "helmet freak " and shut up!

My original post was to introduce the topic of concussion ( which I personally 
had never experienced before) and I thought my experience was a strange one --  
it was certainly  was to me.

Helmets  -- pros and cons are utterly boring on here and have been done to 
death.

So stop being a helmet bore!

-- 
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk