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date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 04:02:24 -0700 (PDT),
group: uk.rec.cycling
back
Crap policing in London
The increased danger to other road users by drivers who use handheld
mobile phones is well known:
Research shows that reactions times are about 50 per cent slower and
that people are four times more at risk of being involved in a
collision, when driving and on the 'phone.
In spite of the growing numbers of cyclists, pedestrians and others
killed by those who make the conscious choice to drive while
chattering into a handheld mobile, it is an activity tacitly
encouraged by both the government and the police. Three penalty points
and a £60 fine is absolutely no deterrent for a lethal activity where
the chances of being caught are negligible. And the police do not
regard enforcement of this law as a priority. That might change if the
government introduced legislation which meant that offenders
automatically lost their license but no such legislation is on the
horizon. Hundreds more cyclists and pedestrians will die at the hands
of mobile phone drivers before a future government grudgingly changes
the law. The current legislation is a spectacular failure but no
politician or senior police officer appears at all concerned.
This situation was brought home to me last Friday afternoon as I
watched the female driver of OV55 YWJ steering her car along Hoe
Street (2.20 pm) with one hand, while with the other she was engrossed
in a conversation on her handheld mobile phone. The car behind her was
a marked police car, with two officers inside. And what did they do?
You guessed: nothing at all. Incredibly, two cars behind the police
car was another driver chatting into a handheld mobile phone. London
drivers have certainly got the message: the police don't care.
On Monday at 3.30 pm the male driver of a lorry reg. MX51 GYF turned
out of Church Hill E17 into Hoe Street, with the driver steering with
one hand while chatting into his handheld mobile on the other. This
prospective mass killer was utterly indifferent to the scores of
pedestrians including children at this location.
When it comes to Londons crap traffic policing Jenny Jones of the
London Assembly has described the difficulties: The Met Police halved
the number of traffic police and regarded road safety as a very low
priority. Drivers have spent the last decade or more thinking that
they can break the law in London and get away with it. The result is
that in some parts of London, a quarter of all people injured in
traffic collisions are victims of hit and run drivers.
At its worst
Each week in London 80 people are the victims of hit-and-run drivers.
This figure has doubled in the last two decades. By contrast the
number of traffic police has fallen steeply over the same period.
(pdf)
Jenny Jones produced an excellent report (pdf) noting that
The Metropolitan Police has failed to treat road crime with the
seriousness it deserves. Londons roads are becoming increasingly
lawless in several dangerous ways. This report describes the rise in
hit-and-run incidents, the widespread evasion of vehicle tax and
insurance, and the declining enforcement of traffic offences not
detected by electronic devices, such as speed cameras. Cuts in the
number of traffic police have lead a minority of drivers to believe
that they can break the law with impunity. Yet, an increase of 8,000
in the total number of police officers in London over the last six
years provided the Met Police with ample opportunity to make road
safety a priority . More people die on Londons roads than are
murdered. Most road deaths are preventable, yet several times more
resources are devoted to murder investigations than to road death
investigations. The lack of priority given to road crime is
demonstrated by the current reluctance of the police to prosecute
drivers who injure cyclists or pedestrians, in the absence of
independent witnesses . This dismissive approach is not adopted
towards the victims of car theft, burglary, assault and other crimes.
The latest example of this state of affairs occurred this weekend:
A driver ran off leaving a man and a woman dead on the pavement after
hitting them in his top-of-the-range £84,000 BMW yesterday. The
victims a man aged 47 and a woman aged 21 were walking home after
a night out when they were struck by the car, which also hit a parked
Mercedes.Witnesses saw the driver get out of his 155mph black BMW M6,
look at the couple lying on the pavement and then run away from the
scene, in Perivale, West London.
There was a fascinating case recently in which three men won their
appeal against conviction for the crime that they had
supplied equipment to cannabis growers, reasonably foreseeing that the
items would be used illegally.
The convictions were quashed, but only because
it was not proved that anyone had used the equipment to grow cannabis.
By the same logic the police should be raiding every car manufacturer
and car sales outlet in Britain. They are all involved in supplying
equipment namely cars designed to be driven at speeds in excess of
70 mph reasonably foreseeing that these cars will be used illegally.
Obtaining convictions shouldnt be a problem, with the evidence
available every day of the week.
But though the Met turns a blind eye to killers on the road, it is
enforcing some aspects of road traffic law:
A CRACKDOWN on cyclists who flout the law by riding on pavements
netted one rider every four minutes. Police officers caught the
offenders during a 90-minute purge in Stoke Newington High Street on
Thursday morning last week. The cyclists were using the stretch of
pavement to avoid going through the Stoke Newington one-way system.
Twenty-one cyclists were hit by £30 fines for flouting the law.
Officers issued 19 fines for cyclists on the pavement and a further
two for going through red lights.
Of course if the Met chose to enforce the law supposed to deter
drivers from stopping in Advanced Stop Lines for cyclists they would
'net' rather more than one offender every four minutes.
http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.com/2008/09/crap-policing.html
date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 04:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
author: spindrift
|
Re: Crap policing in London
spindrift writes:
> netted one rider every four minutes. Police officers caught the
> offenders during a 90-minute purge in Stoke Newington High Street on
> Thursday morning last week. The cyclists were using the stretch of
> pavement to avoid going through the Stoke Newington one-way system.
Is this the bit of the A10 where the southbound carriageway becomes a
fast three-lane road in which anyone going southbound is expected to
use the right-hand lane?
If so, I'd have thought that was a prime example of a site where
Boateng's "the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who
sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of the traffic,
and who show consideration to other pavement users" advice applies in
spades. It's not an easy junction and the cars often go at a hell of
a clip.
But I wasn't there. Perhaps they were not showing consideration to
other pavement users (it would be nice to see this reported if it was
the case).
> Of course if the Met chose to enforce the law supposed to deter
> drivers from stopping in Advanced Stop Lines for cyclists they would
> 'net' rather more than one offender every four minutes.
My (conservative) estimate is one offender every light phase, and more
if the ASL box is big enough to get more than one vehicle in. Not
that, honestly, I care that much about ASL enforcement - I'd rather
that our limited traffic police resources were deployed towards
enforcing the laws about driving like a twat. Stopping on the green
bits is not really a big deal when there are other drivers killing and
injuring people through inattention.
-dan
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:30:32 +0100
author: Daniel Barlow
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:30:32 +0100, Daniel Barlow
wrote:
<snip>
>Is this the bit of the A10 where the southbound carriageway becomes a
>fast three-lane road in which anyone going southbound is expected to
>use the right-hand lane?
>
>If so, I'd have thought that was a prime example of a site where
>Boateng's "the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who
>sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of the traffic,
>and who show consideration to other pavement users" advice applies in
>spades.
Ho, ho ho, - yet another who thinks that a throw-away line in a letter
to another MP has some rule of law.
Do you think that this in anyway gives you authority to break the law
and cycle on the pavement (unless defined as dual purpose).
Here's a clue - it doesn't.
--
There is plenty of evidence that motorists feel a need to portray
cyclists as an "out group" and thus exclude themselves from the class
(Guy Chapman)
And that evidence is where? (Judith Smith)
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:18:30 +0100
author: judith
|
Re: Crap policing in London
"And that evidence is where? (Judith Smith) "
Here:
The TRL research found that when cyclists do feature in drivers'
thoughts, attitudes were largely negative. HGV and bus driver
attitudes were especially negative, related to the perception of being
held up by cyclists. Unpredictability and just 'different' behaviour
were seen to be particular sources of irritation to motorists when
their own convenience is compromised.
http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/53/article11.html
A key finding which should be noted was that, when commenting on the
scenarios it was usually the behaviour of the cyclist that was
criticised no matter how small the misdemeanour. Few links were made
between the cyclists behaviour and any external influences that could
be affecting their choice of behaviour; i.e. the respondents comments
indicated that they thought the cyclists actions were inherent and
dispositional behaviours. In contrast, the motorists misdemeanours
were excused or justified in terms of the situational influences. As
this tendency seemed to continue across the groups and the individual
depth interviews and was unprompted, it is unlikely that group
dynamics had any significant effect on this finding. [...] This aligns
with the psychological prediction of targeting of members of an out
group..
Transport Research Laboratory research report 549, 2003
date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
author: spindrift
|
Re: Crap policing in London
spindrift wrote:
> In spite of the growing numbers of cyclists, pedestrians and others
> killed by those who make the conscious choice to drive while
> chattering into a handheld mobile, it is an activity tacitly
> encouraged by both the government and the police.
Well, there's nothing like a balanced view, eh?
> Three penalty points
> and a £60 fine is absolutely no deterrent for a lethal activity where
> the chances of being caught are negligible.
Garrartofit!
It certainly deters me.
I bought one of those Bluetooth things because of the change in the law. I
would never have bought one otherwise.
JN (clean licence and intending that it should stay that way.
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:30:56 +0100
author: JNugent
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sep 6, 12:02 pm, spindrift wrote:
it is an activity tacitly
> encouraged by both the government and the police.
It's nice tp see a high profile given to drivers using handheld
mobiles by my local force.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.2435836.0.0.php?act=complaint&cid=1867199
Though I agree that higher penalties are needed combined with more
enforcement to stamp the practice out.
Drink driving gets an automatic ban. Was there not a study which
showed mobile use was as dangerous as driving with just over the legal
alcohol limit?
Iain
date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 05:50:44 -0700 (PDT)
author: iarocu
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:18:51 -0700 (PDT), spindrift
said in
:
>"And that evidence is where? (Judith Smith) "
>Here:
>http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/53/article11.html
>Transport Research Laboratory research report 549, 2003
It's almost as if judith had not bothered to do any basic
fact-checking before opening her mouth, isn't it? But we all know
that could not /possibly/ be the case.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:24:45 +0100
author: Just zis Guy, you know?
|
Re: Crap policing in London
iarocu wrote:
> On Sep 6, 12:02 pm, spindrift wrote:
> it is an activity tacitly
>> encouraged by both the government and the police.
> Though I agree that higher penalties are needed combined with more
> enforcement to stamp the practice out.
Disagree about higher penalties. A real chance of getting caught would
be enough. And it's easy - the police don't even need cars. Foot patrols
could just pause for a few minutes near junctions, and talk to anyone
who rolls up to a give way or stop line with a phone clasped to their ear.
AIUI, anyone who didn't stop would be subject to a bigger penalty.
Colin McKenzie
--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the
population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:07:29 +0100
author: Colin McKenzie
|
Re: Crap policing in London
Colin McKenzie wrote:
> iarocu wrote:
>> On Sep 6, 12:02 pm, spindrift wrote:
>> it is an activity tacitly
>>> encouraged by both the government and the police.
>
>> Though I agree that higher penalties are needed combined with more
>> enforcement to stamp the practice out.
>
> Disagree about higher penalties. A real chance of getting caught would
> be enough. And it's easy - the police don't even need cars. Foot patrols
> could just pause for a few minutes near junctions, and talk to anyone
> who rolls up to a give way or stop line with a phone clasped to their ear.
>
> AIUI, anyone who didn't stop would be subject to a bigger penalty.
>
> Colin McKenzie
>
When I raised this question at a Local Consultation Meeting the police
rep quoted a respectable number of convictions but seemed to be of the
opinion that " you won't stop it". She also said that Community Officers
could not enforce this law ( does anyone know if that is the legal
situation ?) and that proper police only get out of the station on
urgent calls.
--
CTC Right to Ride Rep. for Richmond upon Thames
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:01:38 +0100
author: Paul Luton
|
Re: Crap policing in London
Paul Luton wrote:
> Colin McKenzie wrote:
>> iarocu wrote:
>>> On Sep 6, 12:02 pm, spindrift wrote:
>>> it is an activity tacitly
>>>> encouraged by both the government and the police.
>>
>>> Though I agree that higher penalties are needed combined with more
>>> enforcement to stamp the practice out.
>>
>> Disagree about higher penalties. A real chance of getting caught would
>> be enough. And it's easy - the police don't even need cars. Foot
>> patrols could just pause for a few minutes near junctions, and talk to
>> anyone
>> who rolls up to a give way or stop line with a phone clasped to their
>> ear.
>>
>> AIUI, anyone who didn't stop would be subject to a bigger penalty.
>>
>> Colin McKenzie
>>
>
> When I raised this question at a Local Consultation Meeting the police
> rep quoted a respectable number of convictions but seemed to be of the
> opinion that " you won't stop it". She also said that Community Officers
> could not enforce this law ( does anyone know if that is the legal
> situation ?)
I haven't checked the RTA since the faux bobbies arrived on the scene,
but I seem to remember that a driver is only obliged to stop for a
uniformed police officer. That's why there was always one at a censcus
point , he/she was needed to stop the taffic because the staff asking
questions weren't empowered to stop...
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:45:42 +0100
author: Marc
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:18:51 -0700 (PDT), spindrift
wrote:
>"And that evidence is where? (Judith Smith) "
>
>Here:
<snip - pretence at being evidence from TRL report>
>Transport Research Laboratory research report 549, 2003
>
Thanks - you have actually quoted that well known neutral body the
Cambridge Cycle Campaign's view of the TRL report - rather than what
the report said.
What the report actually says is:
It is important to note that although some level of
negativity appears to exist, there does not appear to be any
over-riding hostility shown by drivers towards cyclists.
--
If you're going to make snide insinuations about the author,
as you undoubtedly did, then you can fuck right off. (Guy Chapman)
If you are going to make accusations about someone, then you need to
be able to substantiate when asked to. (Judith Smith)
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:56:56 +0100
author: judith
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:24:45 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:
>On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:18:51 -0700 (PDT), spindrift
> said in
>:
>
>>"And that evidence is where? (Judith Smith) "
>>Here:
>>http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/53/article11.html
>>Transport Research Laboratory research report 549, 2003
>
>It's almost as if judith had not bothered to do any basic
>fact-checking before opening her mouth, isn't it? But we all know
>that could not /possibly/ be the case.
>
>Guy
(See quote from TRL on previous post)
By the way talking of fact-checking - have you found those snide
comments you say that I made?
There taking a long time to track down.
As I said - provide them and I look stupid - fail to provide to , and
you do.
--
I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman)
Some evidence shows that helmeted cyclists are more likely to hit
their heads. (Guy Chapman)
I have never said that I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy
Chapman) - proven to be an outright lie.
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:01:26 +0100
author: judith
|
Re: Crap policing in London
judith wrote:
>
> As I said - provide them and I look stupid - fail to provide to , and
> you do.
TBH whatever anyone provides ( or doesn't) you manage to make yourself
look stupid.
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:10:39 +0100
author: Marc
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:10:39 +0100, Marc
wrote:
>judith wrote:
>
>>
>> As I said - provide them and I look stupid - fail to provide to , and
>> you do.
>
>
>TBH whatever anyone provides ( or doesn't) you manage to make yourself
>look stupid.
Ho, ho, ho, - you're very funny.
Why thank you Round - (you don't mind me calling you that do you? - I
understand that you treat it as a term of endearment)
Why don't you share that "funny" camping story with more of us -
you're not embarrassed are you?
--
I believe the driver is also responsible for the use of seat belts <of
passengers>. (Guy Chapman)
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:19:59 +0100
author: judith
|
Re: Crap policing in London
judith wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:10:39 +0100, Marc
> wrote:
>
>> judith wrote:
>>
>>> As I said - provide them and I look stupid - fail to provide to , and
>>> you do.
>>
>> TBH whatever anyone provides ( or doesn't) you manage to make yourself
>> look stupid.
>
>
> Ho, ho, ho, - you're very funny.
It wasn't meant to be funny.
>
>
> Why thank you Round - (you don't mind me calling you that do you?
You can call me whatever you like, I have no way of stopping you,
although it makes little difference to me either way, and no difference
whatsoever to the rest of the world.
- I
> understand that you treat it as a term of endearment)
I had never heard it until you invented it.
>
> Why don't you share that "funny" camping story with more of us -
> you're not embarrassed are you?
I really don't know what on earth you are blathering about.
I'm not sure what you think I should be embarrased about, I'm not
embarrased about camping or naturism, in fact on more than one occasion
here I think I have mentioned one or the other, or both.If you think
that either would be embarring I think it says more about you than me (
or the others here) and makes you look stupid, again, which is where
were we started.
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:27:09 +0100
author: Marc
|
Re: Crap policing in London
iarocu considered Sat, 6 Sep 2008 05:50:44 -0700
(PDT) the perfect time to write:
>On Sep 6, 12:02 pm, spindrift wrote:
> it is an activity tacitly
>> encouraged by both the government and the police.
>
>It's nice tp see a high profile given to drivers using handheld
>mobiles by my local force.
>
>http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.2435836.0.0.php?act=complaint&cid=1867199
>
>Though I agree that higher penalties are needed combined with more
>enforcement to stamp the practice out.
>Drink driving gets an automatic ban. Was there not a study which
>showed mobile use was as dangerous as driving with just over the legal
>alcohol limit?
>
As well as being dealt with under the fixed penalty system, use of a
handheld phone while driving should be modified to automatically
forfeit the phone, including sim.
--
There are 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't!
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:35:12 +0100
author: Phil W Lee phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk
|
Re: Crap policing in London
Marc wrote:
> Paul Luton wrote:
>> Colin McKenzie wrote:
>>> iarocu wrote:
>>>> On Sep 6, 12:02 pm, spindrift wrote:
>>>> it is an activity tacitly
>>>>> encouraged by both the government and the police.
>>>
>>>> Though I agree that higher penalties are needed combined with more
>>>> enforcement to stamp the practice out.
>>>
>>> Disagree about higher penalties. A real chance of getting caught
>>> would be enough. And it's easy - the police don't even need cars.
>>> Foot patrols could just pause for a few minutes near junctions, and
>>> talk to anyone
>>> who rolls up to a give way or stop line with a phone clasped to their
>>> ear.
>>>
>>> AIUI, anyone who didn't stop would be subject to a bigger penalty.
>>>
>>> Colin McKenzie
>>>
>>
>> When I raised this question at a Local Consultation Meeting the police
>> rep quoted a respectable number of convictions but seemed to be of the
>> opinion that " you won't stop it". She also said that Community
>> Officers could not enforce this law ( does anyone know if that is the
>> legal situation ?)
>
> I haven't checked the RTA since the faux bobbies arrived on the scene,
> but I seem to remember that a driver is only obliged to stop for a
> uniformed police officer. That's why there was always one at a censcus
> point , he/she was needed to stop the taffic because the staff asking
> questions weren't empowered to stop...
Thanks - I have since done a bit of googleing and found that Surrey have
"Roads Policing Community Support Officers" (RPCSOs)who can amongst
other things "Tackle anti-social driving, including speeding,
obstruction, mobile phone use." Looks like something that should be
encouraged elsewhere.
Paul
--
CTC Right to Ride Rep. for Richmond upon Thames
date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:13:08 +0100
author: Paul Luton
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sep 6, 1:50 pm, iarocu wrote:
Was there not a study which
> showed mobile use was as dangerous as driving with just over the legal
> alcohol limit?
Yes. There it is.
http://www.trl.co.uk/store/report_detail.asp?srid=2698&pid=108
"Driving performance under the influence of alcohol was significantly
worse than normal driving, yet better than driving while using a
phone. Drivers also reported that it was easier to drive drunk than to
drive while using a phone. It is concluded that driving behaviour is
impaired more during a phone conversation than by having a blood
alcohol level at the UK legal limit (80mg / 100ml). (A)"
Iain
date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT)
author: iarocu
|
Re: Crap policing in London
"judith" wrote in message
news:9ss4c49ia75kq9adk6cr3p46i7c5mffm66@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:30:32 +0100, Daniel Barlow
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Is this the bit of the A10 where the southbound carriageway becomes a
>>fast three-lane road in which anyone going southbound is expected to
>>use the right-hand lane?
>>
>>If so, I'd have thought that was a prime example of a site where
>>Boateng's "the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who
>>sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of the traffic,
>>and who show consideration to other pavement users" advice applies in
>>spades.
>
> Ho, ho ho, - yet another who thinks that a throw-away line in a letter
> to another MP has some rule of law.
>
>
> Do you think that this in anyway gives you authority to break the law
> and cycle on the pavement (unless defined as dual purpose).
>
> Here's a clue - it doesn't.
>
>
> --
> There is plenty of evidence that motorists feel a need to portray
> cyclists as an "out group" and thus exclude themselves from the class
> (Guy Chapman)
> And that evidence is where? (Judith Smith)
>
> Far too many cyclists on pavements, its time police clamped down on this,
> if you say anything to them, either they ignore you or look as if you are
> off another planet, CSOs have power to fine them, I wonder how many have
> been fined for this offence, alot do not seem to know it is illegal
>
>
date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 11:45:56 +0100
author: greyprimer
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:35:12 +0100
Phil W Lee <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
> As well as being dealt with under the fixed penalty system, use of a
> handheld phone while driving should be modified to automatically
> forfeit the phone, including sim.
Nonsense. What danger is the phone to anyone?
If anything is to be forfeited, it must be the dangerous thing.
Namely, the car.
--
not me guv
date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 23:11:59 +0100
author: Nick Kew
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 23:11:59 +0100
Nick Kew wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:35:12 +0100
> Phil W Lee <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
>
>
> > As well as being dealt with under the fixed penalty system, use of a
> > handheld phone while driving should be modified to automatically
> > forfeit the phone, including sim.
>
> Nonsense. What danger is the phone to anyone?
>
> If anything is to be forfeited, it must be the dangerous thing.
> Namely, the car.
>
Cars aren't dangerous, any more than guns are - it's the user that's
the problem ...
date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 13:42:08 +0100
author: Rob Morley
|
Re: Crap policing in London
spindrift wrote:
> By the same logic the police should be raiding every car manufacturer
> and car sales outlet in Britain. They are all involved in supplying
> equipment - namely cars designed to be driven at speeds in excess of
> 70 mph - reasonably foreseeing that these cars will be used illegally.
> Obtaining convictions shouldn't be a problem, with the evidence
> available every day of the week.
A couple of colleagues of mine own cars designed to be driven at speeds
in excess of 100 mph. They regularly do drive at such speeds. They also
happen to be exceedingly careful users of public roads, almost certainly
more skilled and more capable than most other road users. They have
spotless driving records.
Cheers,
Luke
--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 14:10:07 +0100
author: (Ekul Namsob)
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On 7 Sep, 13:42, Rob Morley wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 23:11:59 퍝
>
> Nick Kew wrote:
> > On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:35:12 퍝
> > Phil W Lee <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
>
> > > As well as being dealt with under the fixed penalty system, use of a
> > > handheld phone while driving should be modified to automatically
> > > forfeit the phone, including sim.
>
> > Nonsense. What danger is the phone to anyone?
>
> > If anything is to be forfeited, it must be the dangerous thing.
> > Namely, the car.
>
> Cars aren't dangerous, any more than guns are - it's the user that's
> the problem ...
OK, so take cars away from people who have shown themselves to use
them in a way that creates unnecessary danger.
--
Dave...
date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:08:12 -0700 (PDT)
author: dkahn400
|
Re: Crap policing in London
On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:08:12 -0700 (PDT)
dkahn400 wrote:
> OK, so take cars away from people who have shown themselves to use
> them in a way that creates unnecessary danger.
>
Not really any more use than taking their licenses - they can easily get
another car.
date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 20:07:43 +0100
author: Rob Morley
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