Just a quick post to put on record my daughter's appreciation of Ribble
Valley Juniors, where she has been for the last two Saturday mornings.
They do insist on the wearing of plastic lids (which I imagine is
probably a requirement of insurance companies) but they have been very
friendly and I do believe Small has finally decided that perhaps ballet
isn't for her.

She really doesn't understand the concept of the slow bicycle race
though.

Cheers,
Luke

-- 
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

Ekul Namsob wrote:
> Just a quick post to put on record my daughter's appreciation of Ribble
> Valley Juniors, where she has been for the last two Saturday mornings.
> They do insist on the wearing of plastic lids (which I imagine is
> probably a requirement of insurance companies)

Other insurers don't. Why not ask them if they've looked for one?

Though if they're affiliated with British Cycling the rule is probably 
from them.

Colin McKenzie

-- 
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the 
population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

On Aug 26, 8:47 am, Colin McKenzie  wrote:
> Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > Just a quick post to put on record my daughter's appreciation of Ribble
> > Valley Juniors, where she has been for the last two Saturday mornings.
> > They do insist on the wearing of plastic lids (which I imagine is
> > probably a requirement of insurance companies)
>
> Other insurers don't. Why not ask them if they've looked for one?
>
> Though if they're affiliated with British Cycling the rule is probably
> from them.
>

It'll be a Go-Ride type club and the rule will be a BC rule. Quite
sensible given the likely scale of injuries (minor bumps and bruises)
and the activities (pushing the boundaries of the skills envelope in
close proximity to hard objects.)

Same rule at our club, but no-one bats an eyelid when the kids ride to
and from the club sans casque.

Helmets are not evil, inappropriate mandation is.

..d

On 26 Aug, 09:54, David Martin  wrote:
> On Aug 26, 8:47 am, Colin McKenzie  wrote:
>
> > Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > > Just a quick post to put on record my daughter's appreciation of Ribble
> > > Valley Juniors, where she has been for the last two Saturday mornings.
> > > They do insist on the wearing of plastic lids (which I imagine is
> > > probably a requirement of insurance companies)
>
> > Other insurers don't. Why not ask them if they've looked for one?
>
> > Though if they're affiliated with British Cycling the rule is probably
> > from them.
>
> It'll be a Go-Ride type club and the rule will be a BC rule. Quite
> sensible given the likely scale of injuries (minor bumps and bruises)
> and the activities (pushing the boundaries of the skills envelope in
> close proximity to hard objects.)
>
> Same rule at our club, but no-one bats an eyelid when the kids ride to
> and from the club sans casque.
>
> Helmets are not evil, inappropriate mandation is.
>
> ..d

With the prominence of the efforts of the British Cycling Team's
efforts on the track and road, I doubt that many youngsters will
regard the wearing of a helmet as an unusual activity.  I insist that
kids wear helmets for Go Ride activities and they kids do come into
contact with each other and the ground when they go outside of their
skills envelope or, heaven forbid, when they choose to do their own
versions of balance exercises or close proximity riding.  What they do
with their helmets outside of the club activities/hours is not my
business.  The pupils are aware that I don't wear a helmet for day to
day riding but wear one when leading Go Ride activities.

I am constantly surprised by the vitriol that helmets attract.  So far
I've not had any parents objecting to the wearing of helmets.  I've
had some of the girls objecting on the grounds that it means that they
have to bring their GHDs to school to sort out their hair afterwards
and they'd rather do without the hassle of fighting for access to a
mains supply.

vernon wrote:
> With the prominence of the efforts of the British Cycling Team's
> efforts on the track and road, I doubt that many youngsters will
> regard the wearing of a helmet as an unusual activity.  I insist that
> kids wear helmets for Go Ride activities and they kids do come into
> contact with each other and the ground when they go outside of their
> skills envelope or, heaven forbid, when they choose to do their own
> versions of balance exercises or close proximity riding. 

I'm sorry, but I don't accept that compulsion is ever the right approach 
with cycle helmets.

There are circumstances where recommendation is appropriate, and I also 
have no problem with forcing children to comply with their parents' 
choices rather than letting them decide for themselves.

Compulsion says two things I have a real problem with:
- this activity is too dangerous to do without protective equipment
- with this protective equipment, it becomes safe enough.

The injuries helmets might protect against are worth avoiding, 
especially if you plan to 'go outside of your skills envelope'. But 
they're not so severe that you should be compelled to protect against them.

> I've not had any parents objecting to the wearing of helmets.

I bet most of them would be surprised if you said that the helmets 
cannot be relied on to give any protection in serious impacts.

Note for trolls: I support anyone's choice to wear a cycle helmet. What 
I am against is compulsion by 3rd parties. Clear enough?

Colin McKenzie

-- 
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the 
population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:21:52 -0700 (PDT), vernon
 wrote:

>On 26 Aug, 09:54, David Martin  wrote:
>> On Aug 26, 8:47 am, Colin McKenzie  wrote:
>>
>> > Ekul Namsob wrote:
>> > > Just a quick post to put on record my daughter's appreciation of Ribble
>> > > Valley Juniors, where she has been for the last two Saturday mornings.
>> > > They do insist on the wearing of plastic lids (which I imagine is
>> > > probably a requirement of insurance companies)
>>
>> > Other insurers don't. Why not ask them if they've looked for one?
>>
>> > Though if they're affiliated with British Cycling the rule is probably
>> > from them.
>>
>> It'll be a Go-Ride type club and the rule will be a BC rule. Quite
>> sensible given the likely scale of injuries (minor bumps and bruises)
>> and the activities (pushing the boundaries of the skills envelope in
>> close proximity to hard objects.)
>>
>> Same rule at our club, but no-one bats an eyelid when the kids ride to
>> and from the club sans casque.
>>
>> Helmets are not evil, inappropriate mandation is.
>>
>> ..d
>
>With the prominence of the efforts of the British Cycling Team's
>efforts on the track and road, I doubt that many youngsters will
>regard the wearing of a helmet as an unusual activity.  I insist that
>kids wear helmets for Go Ride activities and they kids do come into
>contact with each other and the ground when they go outside of their
>skills envelope or, heaven forbid, when they choose to do their own
>versions of balance exercises or close proximity riding.  What they do
>with their helmets outside of the club activities/hours is not my
>business.  The pupils are aware that I don't wear a helmet for day to
>day riding but wear one when leading Go Ride activities.


Why do you wear them for Go Ride activity and not at other times?

If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
risk of injury to the head - what would you say?


--   
you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
incompatible. (Guy Chapman)

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:02:51 +0100, Colin McKenzie
 wrote:

>vernon wrote:
>> With the prominence of the efforts of the British Cycling Team's
>> efforts on the track and road, I doubt that many youngsters will
>> regard the wearing of a helmet as an unusual activity.  I insist that
>> kids wear helmets for Go Ride activities and they kids do come into
>> contact with each other and the ground when they go outside of their
>> skills envelope or, heaven forbid, when they choose to do their own
>> versions of balance exercises or close proximity riding. 
>
>I'm sorry, but I don't accept that compulsion is ever the right approach 
>with cycle helmets.


forget about compulsion for a minute:

Can you answer the question I have just asked in this same thread re
advice to a junior please.

--   
you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
incompatible. (Guy Chapman)

On Aug 28, 9:19 am, judith  wrote:

> If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
> experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
> risk of injury to the head - what would you say?

In some circumstances yes, in others it may increase the risk. It is
less effective the more severe the impact.
Wearing a helmet is no substitute for sensible riding. If you wear
one, wear it properly.
Treat it as only reducing minor scratches and bruises, anything over
that is a lottery.

..d

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT), David Martin
 wrote:

>On Aug 28, 9:19 am, judith  wrote:
>
>> If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
>> experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
>> risk of injury to the head - what would you say?
>
>In some circumstances yes, in others it may increase the risk. It is
>less effective the more severe the impact.
>Wearing a helmet is no substitute for sensible riding. If you wear
>one, wear it properly.
>Treat it as only reducing minor scratches and bruises, anything over
>that is a lottery.
>
>..d

Would you say that to a "junior member" of a cycling club?

And what would your actual advice to this junior member be  as to
whether they should wear a helmet or not?

--   
you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
incompatible. (Guy Chapman)

On 28 Aug, 12:00, judith  wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT), David Martin
>
>  wrote:
> >On Aug 28, 9:19 am, judith  wrote:
>
> >> If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
> >> experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
> >> risk of injury to the head - what would you say?
>
> >In some circumstances yes, in others it may increase the risk. It is
> >less effective the more severe the impact.
> >Wearing a helmet is no substitute for sensible riding. If you wear
> >one, wear it properly.
> >Treat it as only reducing minor scratches and bruises, anything over
> >that is a lottery.
>
> >..d
>
> Would you say that to a "junior member" of a cycling club?
>
> And what would your actual advice to this junior member be  as to
> whether they should wear a helmet or not?
>
> --
> you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
> incompatible. (Guy Chapman)

My advice would be read UK Rec Cycling, specifically the posts in the
thread 'Cycle h*lm*t saved my life (again)' Paying particular
attention to the replies given in response to Judith Smith's enquiries
on this subject, you will then have a superfluity of information on
which to base your decisions.

Sniper8052

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:57:27 -0700 (PDT), "Sniper8052@yahoo.co.uk"
 wrote:

>On 28 Aug, 12:00, judith  wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT), David Martin
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Aug 28, 9:19 am, judith  wrote:
>>
>> >> If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
>> >> experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
>> >> risk of injury to the head - what would you say?
>>
>> >In some circumstances yes, in others it may increase the risk. It is
>> >less effective the more severe the impact.
>> >Wearing a helmet is no substitute for sensible riding. If you wear
>> >one, wear it properly.
>> >Treat it as only reducing minor scratches and bruises, anything over
>> >that is a lottery.
>>
>> >..d
>>
>> Would you say that to a "junior member" of a cycling club?
>>
>> And what would your actual advice to this junior member be  as to
>> whether they should wear a helmet or not?
>>
>> --
>> you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
>> incompatible. (Guy Chapman)
>
>My advice would be read UK Rec Cycling, specifically the posts in the
>thread 'Cycle h*lm*t saved my life (again)' Paying particular
>attention to the replies given in response to Judith Smith's enquiries
>on this subject, you will then have a superfluity of information on
>which to base your decisions.
>
>Sniper8052

Thanks for the lack of contribution: 
still dodging I see

Why can you not just answer a simple question?

--   
you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
incompatible. (Guy Chapman)

On 28 Aug, 13:28, judith  wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:57:27 -0700 (PDT), "Sniper8...@yahoo.co.uk"
>
>
>
>  wrote:
> >On 28 Aug, 12:00, judith  wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT), David Martin
>
> >>  wrote:
> >> >On Aug 28, 9:19 am, judith  wrote:
>
> >> >> If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
> >> >> experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
> >> >> risk of injury to the head - what would you say?
>
> >> >In some circumstances yes, in others it may increase the risk. It is
> >> >less effective the more severe the impact.
> >> >Wearing a helmet is no substitute for sensible riding. If you wear
> >> >one, wear it properly.
> >> >Treat it as only reducing minor scratches and bruises, anything over
> >> >that is a lottery.
>
> >> >..d
>
> >> Would you say that to a "junior member" of a cycling club?
>
> >> And what would your actual advice to this junior member be  as to
> >> whether they should wear a helmet or not?
>
> >> --
> >> you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
> >> incompatible. (Guy Chapman)
>
> >My advice would be read UK Rec Cycling, specifically the posts in the
> >thread 'Cycle h*lm*t saved my life (again)' Paying particular
> >attention to the replies given in response to Judith Smith's enquiries
> >on this subject, you will then have a superfluity of information on
> >which to base your decisions.
>
> >Sniper8052
>
> Thanks for the lack of contribution:
> still dodging I see
>
> Why can you not just answer a simple question?
>
> --
> you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
> incompatible. (Guy Chapman)

I was pointing out that your repeated requests for information in that
thread from those better informed and/or better able to use the
internet to conduct research than yourself had created a valuable
resource of material and references, in an accessible and singular
location, in response to one who had sought similar answers to her
questions.

Is that not then the case?

Sniper8052

On Aug 28, 12:00 pm, judith  wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT), David Martin
>
>  wrote:
> >On Aug 28, 9:19 am, judith  wrote:
>
> >> If a junior member of the club was to ask your advice as an
> >> experienced cyclist - does wearing a cycle helmet overall reduce the
> >> risk of injury to the head - what would you say?
>
> >In some circumstances yes, in others it may increase the risk. It is
> >less effective the more severe the impact.
> >Wearing a helmet is no substitute for sensible riding. If you wear
> >one, wear it properly.
> >Treat it as only reducing minor scratches and bruises, anything over
> >that is a lottery.
>
> >..d
>
> Would you say that to a "junior member" of a cycling club?

Yes. I presume you don't mean junior (16-17 yo) but youth (under 16).
Obviously that is a potted version of the position. Typically the
answer is the abbreviated version "If you want to. Ride sensibly and
don't believe the helmet will do you any good". Excetions apply if
they are wanting to participate in a club event where helmets are
mandatory.

> And what would your actual advice to this junior member be  as to
> whether they should wear a helmet or not?

For them to make up their own mind and think about what they are
doing.

..d

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:48:35 -0700 (PDT), David Martin
 wrote:

<snip>

>Yes. I presume you don't mean junior (16-17 yo) but youth (under 16).
>Obviously that is a potted version of the position. Typically the
>answer is the abbreviated version "If you want to. Ride sensibly and
>don't believe the helmet will do you any good". Excetions apply if
>they are wanting to participate in a club event where helmets are
>mandatory.
>
>> And what would your actual advice to this junior member be  as to
>> whether they should wear a helmet or not?
>
>For them to make up their own mind and think about what they are
>doing.
>
>..d


Ah - I see - a cop out - I think that is frankly pathetic

You are unwilling to offer a (say) 12 year old who has asked you
(perhaps as an instructor ) whether they should wear a helmet or not -
to make up their own mind.

I bet that goes down well with the parents.



--   
you can either promote cycling or promote helmets,the two are
incompatible. (Guy Chapman)