I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on 
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the rescuers 
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which 
had caught in the caribineer

"barry makepeace"  wrote in message
news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
> Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
rescuers
> did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which
> had caught in the caribineer

Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
above him from which it could be lowered.  (You can't just "send a rope
up" - it has to be taken by a climber).

It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss rescuers
(and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.

It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
story first-hand.  However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety.  I've
always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to see
why Joe Simpson feels the same way.

Steve P

"Steve Pardoe"  wrote in message
news:X4ydnTKVzq3SxrXaRVnyjAA@pipex.net...
> "barry makepeace"  wrote in message
> news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> > I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
> > Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
> rescuers
> > did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot
which
> > had caught in the caribineer
>
> Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
> which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
> above him from which it could be lowered.  (You can't just "send a rope
> up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
>
> It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss
rescuers
> (and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
> able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.

Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.

> It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
> based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
> story first-hand.  However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
> individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety.  I've
> always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to
see
> why Joe Simpson feels the same way.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's own
website, haven't time to read it just now...

http://www.noordinaryjoe.co.uk/article_12.asp

The Indie at http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article13737.ece gives a
fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.

HTH,

> Steve P

The television show said he pulled himself up the rope he was hanging from 
and cut the rope on both of his companions. They said he still had not 
enough rope so he had to unplait the rope to reach the rescuers. It was not 
strong enough to take his weight so they attached a new rope to it which he 
pulled up. This rope was still not long enough so they knotted another rope 
to it which caught in the caribineer. Surely you would knot another rope to 
the bottom of this rope making sure he was able to undo the knot and attach 
above him.


eveSP@AMpardoes.com> wrote in message 
news:gKWdnV5In5pq67XanZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@pipex.net...
> "Steve Pardoe"  wrote in message
> news:X4ydnTKVzq3SxrXaRVnyjAA@pipex.net...
>> "barry makepeace"  wrote in message
>> news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>> > I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
>> > Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
>> rescuers
>> > did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot
> which
>> > had caught in the caribineer
>>
>> Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
>> which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
>> above him from which it could be lowered.  (You can't just "send a rope
>> up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
>>
>> It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss
> rescuers
>> (and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and 
>> were
>> able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.
>
> Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.
>
>> It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was 
>> inevitably
>> based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
>> story first-hand.  However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an 
>> exceptional
>> individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety.  I've
>> always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to
> see
>> why Joe Simpson feels the same way.
>
> Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's 
> own
> website, haven't time to read it just now...
>
> http://www.noordinaryjoe.co.uk/article_12.asp
>
> The Indie at http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article13737.ece gives a
> fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
>
> HTH,
>
>> Steve P
>
>

Having read the article I think maybe the part about him unravelling the 
rope to make it longer may have been fiction. It was a very moving story. I 
am not a mountaineer myself  but this part of the story i could not 
understand.
"Steve Pardoe"  wrote in message 
news:gKWdnV5In5pq67XanZ2dnUVZ8qKvnZ2d@pipex.net...
> "Steve Pardoe"  wrote in message
> news:X4ydnTKVzq3SxrXaRVnyjAA@pipex.net...
>> "barry makepeace"  wrote in message
>> news:%xMVi.20260$uH.5661@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>> > I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
>> > Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the
>> rescuers
>> > did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot
> which
>> > had caught in the caribineer
>>
>> Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
>> which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
>> above him from which it could be lowered.  (You can't just "send a rope
>> up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
>>
>> It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss
> rescuers
>> (and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and 
>> were
>> able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.
>
> Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.
>
>> It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was 
>> inevitably
>> based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
>> story first-hand.  However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an 
>> exceptional
>> individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety.  I've
>> always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to
> see
>> why Joe Simpson feels the same way.
>
> Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's 
> own
> website, haven't time to read it just now...
>
> http://www.noordinaryjoe.co.uk/article_12.asp
>
> The Indie at http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article13737.ece gives a
> fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
>
> HTH,
>
>> Steve P
>
>

In message <Y93Wi.11499$6v.735@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
          "barry makepeace"  wrote:

> The television show said he pulled himself up the rope he was hanging
> from  and cut the rope on both of his companions. They said he still
> had not  enough rope so he had to unplait the rope to reach the
> rescuers. It was not  strong enough to take his weight so they
> attached a new rope to it which he  pulled up. This rope was still not
> long enough so they knotted another rope  to it which caught in the
> caribineer. Surely you would knot another rope to  the bottom of this
> rope making sure he was able to undo the knot and attach  above him.
> 

But to tie yet another rope to the end they have to be able to reach the
bottom of the rope. If it is hanging out from the face by some distance
they would not be able to reach it at all.

Presumably you've never put yourself in such a position? i.e. trying to
pass a knot on an abseil rope with for example an abseil device?

Now contemplate doing it after an arduous descent in very cold weather,
followed by a major traumatic event. Then add in that you're weak and
suffering from frostbite, so have only limited use of your hands and no
feeling in your fingers.

Having personally been in positions that were not as extreme whilst
pot-holing using Single Rope Technique, or whilst mountaineering in good
weather, I can assure you that even with all the right equipment and in
good physical shape it can take most of your remaining energy to
overcome such obstacles in cold and wet conditions.

What amazes me and probably most other mountaineers is what he actually
did achieve before he finally died.

Mike
-- 
 o/ \\    //        |\   ,_ o      Mike Clark
<\__,\\  //   __o   | \ /  /\,   "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
 ">    ||   _`\<,_  |__\  \> |  reader in immunology, antibody engineer and
  `    ||  (_)/ (_) |   \corn computer user"

Hi Steve,

I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil 
without threading the rope through a carabiner.

If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an 
extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't trust 
his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.

The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the 
rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with 
one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one 
handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of 
hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.

Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that he 
would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the rope 
to continue abseiling!

Carol Haynes

That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I suspect 
the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will never know 
exactly what  happened.  I have watched so much tv lately where the program 
has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
 I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i 
could find out exactly what did happen.
many thanks
barry makepeace
"Carol Haynes"  wrote in message 
news:68mdnTGIoPhVuLTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
> Hi Steve,
>
> I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil 
> without threading the rope through a carabiner.
>
> If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an 
> extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't 
> trust his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
>
> The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the 
> rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with 
> one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one 
> handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of 
> hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
>
> Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that 
> he would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the 
> rope to continue abseiling!
>
> Carol Haynes
>

barry makepeace wrote:
> That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I suspect 
> the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will never know 
> exactly what  happened.  I have watched so much tv lately where the program 
> has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
>  I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
> It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
> I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i 
> could find out exactly what did happen.
> many thanks
> barry makepeace
> "Carol Haynes"  wrote in message 
> news:68mdnTGIoPhVuLTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com...
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil 
>> without threading the rope through a carabiner.
>>
>> If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an 
>> extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't 
>> trust his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
>>
>> The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the 
>> rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with 
>> one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one 
>> handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of 
>> hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
>>
>> Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that 
>> he would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the 
>> rope to continue abseiling!
>>
>> Carol Haynes
>>
> 
> 


I think the rescuers were expecting Kurz to use the classic abseil 
method - rope between the legs, up across the chest and shoulder, free 
end held in one hand and used to control friction and the descent speed. 
  It is possible to abseil over a knot in the rope using this method. 
But Kurz only had one hand working, and it's relatively easy to fall out 
of the classic abseil if you can't steady yourself with the other hand. 
  So he used the karabiner on his waist-length (not a modern sit sling, 
just a length of rope wrapped round the waist several times and tied) - 
that way he was always hanging from the krab.  But the knot was too 
bulky to fit through, and jammed.

In message <4moWi.47$iA.13@newsfe7-win.ntli.net>
          "barry makepeace"  wrote:

> That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I
> suspect  the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will
> never know  exactly what  happened.  I have watched so much tv lately
> where the program  has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
>  I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
> It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
> I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i 
> could find out exactly what did happen.
> many thanks
> barry makepeace

There have been several books that describe the events of this tragedy
including the account of the first successful climb of the North
Face of the Eiger written by Heinrich Harrer called "The White Spider".

Modern equipment and techniques are greatly improved such that it is
more likely to be able to deal with such a situation. Nevertheless
mountaineering is inherently dangerous and deaths are not infrequent on
serious routes such as north facing ice climbs of major alpine peaks.

Mike
-- 
 o/ \\    //        |\   ,_ o      Mike Clark
<\__,\\  //   __o   | \ /  /\,   "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
 ">    ||   _`\<,_  |__\  \> |  reader in immunology, antibody engineer and
  `    ||  (_)/ (_) |   \corn computer user"