Conventional wisdom is that a heavier car makes a better tug (which is
obviously true) - but, given two vehicles of the same weight, what
else matters?

As an example, I have towed my current caravan (1450kg MTPLM) with a
Galaxy 1.9 TD (115PS) - kerbweight 1724kg, and then with a Terrano 2.7
TDi - kerbweight 1745kg.
In other words, they were close enough in weight that what was in the
car would be making more difference than the vehicle weight.
Yet the Terrano feels a much better tow than the Galaxy - and I'm not
talking about the one that's best at getting up hills, racing lorries
(joke!) etc., I'm talking about the one that feels a more 'secure'
combination - the Galaxy always felt slightly unsure as to whether it
or the van was in charge, whereas the Terrano doesn't leave you with
that same feeling of doubt.
Of course it could all be in my head...

Tim

Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
> Conventional wisdom is that a heavier car makes a better tug (which is
> obviously true) - but, given two vehicles of the same weight, what
> else matters?
> 
> As an example, I have towed my current caravan (1450kg MTPLM) with a
> Galaxy 1.9 TD (115PS) - kerbweight 1724kg, and then with a Terrano 2.7
> TDi - kerbweight 1745kg.
> In other words, they were close enough in weight that what was in the
> car would be making more difference than the vehicle weight.
> Yet the Terrano feels a much better tow than the Galaxy - and I'm not
> talking about the one that's best at getting up hills, racing lorries
> (joke!) etc., I'm talking about the one that feels a more 'secure'
> combination - the Galaxy always felt slightly unsure as to whether it
> or the van was in charge, whereas the Terrano doesn't leave you with
> that same feeling of doubt.
> Of course it could all be in my head...
> 
> Tim

1. Vehicle's centre of gravity (lower = better)
2. Distance from tow point to rear axle (shorter = better)
3. Rear suspension (firmer = better)

and many more, I'm sure.

-- 
Rich B
Ducati GT1000
Take out the obvious to email me.

On 22 Nov, 19:50, "Rich B"
 wrote:
> Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
>
>
>
> > Conventional wisdom is that a heavier car makes a better tug (which is
> > obviously true) - but, given two vehicles of the same weight, what
> > else matters?
>
> > As an example, I have towed my current caravan (1450kg MTPLM) with a
> > Galaxy 1.9 TD (115PS) - kerbweight 1724kg, and then with a Terrano 2.7
> > TDi - kerbweight 1745kg.
> > In other words, they were close enough in weight that what was in the
> > car would be making more difference than the vehicle weight.
> > Yet the Terrano feels a much better tow than the Galaxy - and I'm not
> > talking about the one that's best at getting up hills, racing lorries
> > (joke!) etc., I'm talking about the one that feels a more 'secure'
> > combination - the Galaxy always felt slightly unsure as to whether it
> > or the van was in charge, whereas the Terrano doesn't leave you with
> > that same feeling of doubt.
> > Of course it could all be in my head...
>
> > Tim
>
> 1. Vehicle's centre of gravity (lower = better)
> 2. Distance from tow point to rear axle (shorter = better)
> 3. Rear suspension (firmer = better)
>
> and many more, I'm sure.
>
> --
> Rich B
> Ducati GT1000
> Take out the obvious to email me.

Thanks Rich.
Without any specific measurements to back this up, I would expect the
Galaxy to be better than the Terrano though in all 3 of the above
respects.  But it doesn't 'feel' as though it is...

Tim

Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
> On 22 Nov, 19:50, "Rich B"
>  wrote:
>> Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Conventional wisdom is that a heavier car makes a better tug (which
>>> is obviously true) - but, given two vehicles of the same weight,
>>> what else matters?
>>
>>> As an example, I have towed my current caravan (1450kg MTPLM) with a
>>> Galaxy 1.9 TD (115PS) - kerbweight 1724kg, and then with a Terrano
>>> 2.7 TDi - kerbweight 1745kg.
>>> In other words, they were close enough in weight that what was in
>>> the car would be making more difference than the vehicle weight.
>>> Yet the Terrano feels a much better tow than the Galaxy - and I'm
>>> not talking about the one that's best at getting up hills, racing
>>> lorries (joke!) etc., I'm talking about the one that feels a more
>>> 'secure' combination - the Galaxy always felt slightly unsure as to
>>> whether it or the van was in charge, whereas the Terrano doesn't
>>> leave you with that same feeling of doubt.
>>> Of course it could all be in my head...
>>
>>> Tim
>>
>> 1. Vehicle's centre of gravity (lower = better)
>> 2. Distance from tow point to rear axle (shorter = better)
>> 3. Rear suspension (firmer = better)
>>
>> and many more, I'm sure.
>>
>> --
>> Rich B
>> Ducati GT1000
>> Take out the obvious to email me.
>
> Thanks Rich.
> Without any specific measurements to back this up, I would expect the
> Galaxy to be better than the Terrano though in all 3 of the above
> respects.  But it doesn't 'feel' as though it is...
>
> Tim

I would expect the 4x4 to have a lower CoG (assuming it has a separate 
chassis - not sure) and almost certainly firmer springs all round.  The 
towbar/axle measurement you could only get by measurement, as you say. 
Without ANY firm observations other than a hunch, I would think the Galaxy 
would move around a lot more even without a trailer, owing to its high and 
heavy body structure, and passenger-friendly (ie soft) suspension.  The 
Terrano should have heavy-duty suspension and a solid structure at a low 
level.  That's assuming the Terrano is a "proper" 4x4, which it may well not 
be - I have no experience of them.  These comments would certainly apply to 
any pre-lifestyle Land Rover (Defender, Disco 1 and 2, and Range Rover 
Classic and P38a).  If the Terrano is a toy, I take it all back :-)

-- 
Rich B
Ducati GT1000
Take out the obvious to email me.

On 22 Nov, 21:23, "Rich B"
 wrote:
> Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
>
>
>
> > On 22 Nov, 19:50, "Rich B"
> >  wrote:
> >> Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
>
> >>> Conventional wisdom is that a heavier car makes a better tug (which
> >>> is obviously true) - but, given two vehicles of the same weight,
> >>> what else matters?
>
> >>> As an example, I have towed my current caravan (1450kg MTPLM) with a
> >>> Galaxy 1.9 TD (115PS) - kerbweight 1724kg, and then with a Terrano
> >>> 2.7 TDi - kerbweight 1745kg.
> >>> In other words, they were close enough in weight that what was in
> >>> the car would be making more difference than the vehicle weight.
> >>> Yet the Terrano feels a much better tow than the Galaxy - and I'm
> >>> not talking about the one that's best at getting up hills, racing
> >>> lorries (joke!) etc., I'm talking about the one that feels a more
> >>> 'secure' combination - the Galaxy always felt slightly unsure as to
> >>> whether it or the van was in charge, whereas the Terrano doesn't
> >>> leave you with that same feeling of doubt.
> >>> Of course it could all be in my head...
>
> >>> Tim
>
> >> 1. Vehicle's centre of gravity (lower = better)
> >> 2. Distance from tow point to rear axle (shorter = better)
> >> 3. Rear suspension (firmer = better)
>
> >> and many more, I'm sure.
>
> >> --
> >> Rich B
> >> Ducati GT1000
> >> Take out the obvious to email me.
>
> > Thanks Rich.
> > Without any specific measurements to back this up, I would expect the
> > Galaxy to be better than the Terrano though in all 3 of the above
> > respects.  But it doesn't 'feel' as though it is...
>
> > Tim
>
> I would expect the 4x4 to have a lower CoG (assuming it has a separate
> chassis - not sure) and almost certainly firmer springs all round.  The
> towbar/axle measurement you could only get by measurement, as you say.
> Without ANY firm observations other than a hunch, I would think the Galaxy
> would move around a lot more even without a trailer, owing to its high and
> heavy body structure, and passenger-friendly (ie soft) suspension.  The
> Terrano should have heavy-duty suspension and a solid structure at a low
> level.  That's assuming the Terrano is a "proper" 4x4, which it may well not
> be - I have no experience of them.  These comments would certainly apply to
> any pre-lifestyle Land Rover (Defender, Disco 1 and 2, and Range Rover
> Classic and P38a).  If the Terrano is a toy, I take it all back :-)
>
> --
> Rich B
> Ducati GT1000
> Take out the obvious to email me.

Things are beginning to make more sense...!
I would have guesed the Terrano CoG would be higher, simply because
it's taller (by 10cm) and overall sits higher off the ground, but I'm
quite prepared to be wrong about that.
The point about the suspension is more interesting - the Terrano has
been around since 93 and is I think a fairly old-fashioned 4x4, it's
certainly supposed to be fairly capable off-road (closer to an old
Disco than a Rav4) so I suspect got a lot do with it...
Just looking at a picture, the rear wheels of the Galaxy are closer to
the back than on the Terrano, so the suspension seems to be the key
difference.

My next question is therefore, is there any way of knowing (before
it's too late!) how good a vehicle is going to be?
I'm considering the Suzuki Grand Vitara XL-7 as a replacement for the
Terrano (on the basis that it will be cheaper to run the rest of the
time when I'm not towing, and slightly less agricultural, more
pleasant and modern - and bearing in mind that it might know be quite
as good at tugging a big van up hill, according to www.whattowcar.com
at least) but one of the reasons I changed from the Galaxy to the
Terrano 2 or 3 years ago was because of the slightly doubtful feeling
that towing with the Galaxy gave.
I've heard that the Vitara is supposed to be reasonably capable off-
road, so maybe it's got decent suspension too, but on the other
hand...

Unless of course I can find one with a tow bar fitted and persuade the
dealer to let me take it out for a decent run with the caravan on the
back...!!!

"Rich B"  wrote in
news:5qmabaF10nppoU1@mid.individual.net: 

> Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
>> On 22 Nov, 19:50, "Rich B"
>>  wrote:
>>> Sucking his keyboard for inspiration, trogit typed:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Conventional wisdom is that a heavier car makes a better tug (which
>>>> is obviously true) - but, given two vehicles of the same weight,
>>>> what else matters?
>>>
>>>> As an example, I have towed my current caravan (1450kg MTPLM) with
>>>> a Galaxy 1.9 TD (115PS) - kerbweight 1724kg, and then with a
>>>> Terrano 2.7 TDi - kerbweight 1745kg.
>>>> In other words, they were close enough in weight that what was in
>>>> the car would be making more difference than the vehicle weight.
>>>> Yet the Terrano feels a much better tow than the Galaxy - and I'm
>>>> not talking about the one that's best at getting up hills, racing
>>>> lorries (joke!) etc., I'm talking about the one that feels a more
>>>> 'secure' combination - the Galaxy always felt slightly unsure as to
>>>> whether it or the van was in charge, whereas the Terrano doesn't
>>>> leave you with that same feeling of doubt.
>>>> Of course it could all be in my head...
>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>
>>> 1. Vehicle's centre of gravity (lower = better)
>>> 2. Distance from tow point to rear axle (shorter = better)
>>> 3. Rear suspension (firmer = better)
>>>
>>> and many more, I'm sure.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rich B
>>> Ducati GT1000
>>> Take out the obvious to email me.
>>
>> Thanks Rich.
>> Without any specific measurements to back this up, I would expect the
>> Galaxy to be better than the Terrano though in all 3 of the above
>> respects.  But it doesn't 'feel' as though it is...
>>
>> Tim
> 
> I would expect the 4x4 to have a lower CoG (assuming it has a separate
> chassis - not sure) and almost certainly firmer springs all round. 


Wrong.
-- 

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