Like it or not guys, most women ACTUALLY desire rape.

Why deny them their desires?

I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
and keep a battery charged while camping.
Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than 
this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical 
supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one 
point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but 
now it looks as though it may sense.

On 2008-07-27 11:49:57 +0100, "R D S"  said:

> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
> and keep a battery charged while camping.
> Has anyone any experience/opinions?
> 
> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than
> this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical
> supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one
> point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but
> now it looks as though it may sense.

It would do if it actually delivered on its promises.       In fact it 
falls way short and so is not viable at the scale and budget suggested.

"R D S"  wrote in message 
news:6f3277F9kealU1@mid.individual.net...
>I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
>and keep a battery charged while camping.
> Has anyone any experience/opinions?

We have a solar panel in the caravan which keeps the leisure battery topped 
up. We're very happy with it, got it from Maplins, about £10. We got another 
to keep the scooter battery topped up because it's only used for very short 
journeys.
>
> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
> than this and installed solar in the home?

We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a solar 
dhw panel which is brilliant.

> Likewise with wind, a local electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 
> 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one point I would have thought 
> alternative power was prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though 
> it may sense.

We looked into that but all the suppliers have told us that there are too 
many buildings and trees around us for it to be efficient. Spouse would 
still like one!

Yes, people have mocked us about our investments but we're having the last 
laugh :-)

They also mocked us about signing up to keeping our gas prices at the (then) 
current level. I bet they're eating their cynical words now!

Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial 
return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one aware 
of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our resources.

Mary
>
>

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 퍝, R D S wrote:

> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge 
> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge even under bright sunlight conditions. Battery top up is practical against 
self discharge and light use.

> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further> than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local> electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx > £1500. 

Does that include the control gear, grid connect, invertor, etc etc. Bear 
in mind that even well sited turbines struggle to produce more than 1/3 of 
their rated capacity over a year, so think of that 2kW as more like 600Wif your lucky.

> At one point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively > expensive but now it looks as though it may sense. 

£1500 buys 18750kWhr of mains lecky at 8p/unit.

18750 / 0.6 = 31250 hrs, 1300 days, 3.5 years assuming a good site with 
wind strong enough (and not too strong) to have the turbine generating 
it's rated output for at least some of the time. You'll still be buying mains power when the wind doesn't blow as well, you might be able to sell 
a bit to the grid but not much.

Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message 
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k4obba1.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:

> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.

It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
even under bright sunlight conditions.

Not a caravan fridge!

Mary

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:
> 
>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge 
>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
> 
> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge 
> even under bright sunlight conditions. Battery top up is practical against 
> self discharge and light use.
> 
>> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
>> than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local 
>> electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx 
>> £1500. 
> 
> Does that include the control gear, grid connect, invertor, etc etc. Bear 
> in mind that even well sited turbines struggle to produce more than 1/3 of 
> their rated capacity over a year, so think of that 2kW as more like 600W, 
> if your lucky.
> 
>> At one point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively 
>> expensive but now it looks as though it may sense. 
> 
> £1500 buys 18750kWhr of mains lecky at 8p/unit.
> 
> 18750 / 0.6 = 31250 hrs, 1300 days, 3.5 years assuming a good site with 
> wind strong enough (and not too strong) to have the turbine generating 
> it's rated output for at least some of the time. You'll still be buying 
> mains power when the wind doesn't blow as well, you might be able to sell 
> a bit to the grid but not much.
> 
> Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies 
> for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.
> 
Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?
Will it need planning permission?
I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have today.

In article <488c68c9$0$761$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
	"Mary Fisher"  writes:
> 
> "Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message 
> news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k4obba1.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:
> 
>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
> 
> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
> even under bright sunlight conditions.
> 
> Not a caravan fridge!

Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
(for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"R D S"  wrote in message 
news:6f3277F9kealU1@mid.individual.net...
>I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
>and keep a battery charged while camping.
> Has anyone any experience/opinions?
>
> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
> than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local 
> electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx 
> £1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was 
> prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.

Is that 2kw per year?

Doesn't look like a good deal to me for £1500!

Seriously though, 2*24*365 seems like it should return 17,520kw with a 
payback of around a year.

Empirical evidence suggests you will be lucky if you get 1,750kw.

tim

"Mary Fisher"  wrote in message 
news:488c58f3$0$18031$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
> We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a solar 
> dhw panel which is brilliant.
>
Which type do you have?

"R D S"  wrote in message 
news:6f3gluF9i9p2U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Mary Fisher"  wrote in message 
> news:488c58f3$0$18031$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
>> We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a 
>> solar dhw panel which is brilliant.
>>
> Which type do you have?

Solartwin
>
>

R D S  wrote:

> "Mary Fisher"  wrote in message 
> news:488c58f3$0$18031$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
> > We haven't a pv array although we're considering it but we do have a solar
> > dhw panel which is brilliant.
> >
> Which type do you have? 

The pointless cheapskate stupid version.

On Jul 27, 1:49 pm, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
> In article <488c68c9$0$761$4c56b...@master.news.zetnet.net>,
>         "Mary Fisher"  writes:
>
>
>
> > "Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message
> >news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k4obba1.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
> > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 퍝, R D S wrote:
>
> >> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
> >> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
>
> > It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
> > even under bright sunlight conditions.
>
> > Not a caravan fridge!
>
> Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
> (for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
> as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.

If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Ammonia absorption fridges may be a better bet, as despite being
horribly inefficient they can be run off a thermal panel instead of
electrical, giving you a working system at a fraction the price. Flat
panel plus reflectors. Coldness storage is achieved by packing the
icebox with tetrapak cartons of milk, which being sealed and
sterilised won't spoil, and the freeze/thaw cycle gives good latent
heat (cold) storage. Means you cant use the frozen bit for anything of
course - and best label the cartons clearly in case some silly thinks
they're drinkable.


NT

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:41:59 +0100, Invisible Man wrote:

> Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
> I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?

Nothing runs maintenance free for ever and fossil fuels are used in the 
manufacture/transport of everything as well.

> Will it need planning permission?

Probably, at least one capable of producing any useful power.

> I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
> If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have 
> today.

Heat bank or thermal store, ie a large tank of water heated by what ever 
means to >80C.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On 27 Jul 2008 12:49:56 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

>>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
>>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
>>> 
>>> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a 
>>> fridge even under bright sunlight conditions.
>> 
>> Not a caravan fridge!
> 
> Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
> (for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
> as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.

And the cooler boxes that you plug into your ciggy lighter socket pull 
about 10A @ 12v, 120W that's a big, expensive, photovoltaic panel.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ModuleNo=97380&doy=27m7

"only £699.99   - on sale until 29/07/2008
SAVE £130.00 was £829.99"

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

R D S said...
> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than 
> this and installed solar in the home?
> 
Yes. At our last house (SE Wales) we had solar panels in the roof for 
heating water, and they were fabulous. It didn't need to be hot; it just 
needed to be sunny for a couple of hours. The water was piping hot and 
we rarely had to supplement the panels with the immersion heater.

Installation was expensive, and it would probably have taken us 5 to 10 
years to recoup our outlay. We moved before that happened, and the solar 
panels were a major selling point.

If I had the money now I'd do it again.

-- 
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the 
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.

In article ,
	"Dave Liquorice"  writes:
> On 27 Jul 2008 12:49:56 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>>>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
>>>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
>>>>
>>>> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a
>>>> fridge even under bright sunlight conditions.
>>>
>>> Not a caravan fridge!
>>
>> Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
>> (for dual fuel or dual voltage operation), neither of which are
>> as efficient as a conventional compressor fridge.
> And the cooler boxes that you plug into your ciggy lighter socket pull
> about 10A @ 12v, 120W

I have a couple and have serviced several for other people.
They all contain the same peltier device, which is rated
5.5A at car battery charging voltage.  There maybe some
larger cool boxes with two devices in them.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:41:59 +0100, Invisible Man wrote:
> 
>> Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.
>> I wonder how much fossil fuel is used making a turbine?
> 
> Nothing runs maintenance free for ever and fossil fuels are used in the 
> manufacture/transport of everything as well.
> 
>> Will it need planning permission?
> 
> Probably, at least one capable of producing any useful power.
> 
>> I believe solar panels might have a bit more going for them.
>> If only there were a cheap way of storing some of the heat we have 
>> today.
> 
> Heat bank or thermal store, ie a large tank of water heated by what ever 
> means to >80C.
> 
Might have got cold by February. I believe I did hear somewhere they 
were pumping heat into the ground and recovering is later

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, "R D S"  wrote:

>I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
>and keep a battery charged while camping.
>Has anyone any experience/opinions?

How many solar panels would you need in addition to the deep cycle
batteries to run it and how much would it cost?

>Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than 
>this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical 
>supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one 
>point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but 
>now it looks as though it may sense. 

Some bloke down south spent an absolute fortune installing a wind
turbine for his house and he doesn't generate enough electricity to
power a shaver.

You would have to calculate where you live, how much wind you're
likely to get (realistically) and whether that would generate enough
electricity to repay the costs of the turbine within a reasonable
timespace.

I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.

Have listened to the advice of another bloke regarding a solar
photovoltaic system and he said you may as well just burn £50 notes.

Maybe if energy prices go sky high a solar thermal system may become
an option for a lot of people. But you'd have to hope that the climate
isn't going into a cooling period and we start getting less sunshine,
and that it pays itself back a bit quicker.

If you're staying put for a long time in the same home I'd say to go
for it (solar thermal) if you have the money. In seven to ten years
though we may have more Nuclear power stations and prices will start
to fall again.

My personal opinion is that it's not worth it and the costs are just
too much at the moment for what you'll get back and how long it will
take to recoup the money.

John

>Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial 
>return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one aware 
>of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our resources.

Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

John

>Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies 
>for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.

There will be a big shift in the next ten years to power stations that
don't damage the environment are clean and generate enough electricity
for everyone i.e. Nuclear Power.

At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
electric and gas consumption in the next few years until more Nuclear
Power stations are built and prices come down.

John

"John"  wrote in message 
news:usfp84h34vj2ecu29nlsr6ggbn5ko4uc87@4ax.com...
>
>>Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
>>return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one 
>>aware
>>of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our 
>>resources.
>
> Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
> not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
> how they are made and if that's good for the environment?
>
> John

Well you could same about power stations.

And for the pro nuclear brigade apparently it is going to cost about £76 
billion to decomission all the old ones.

There is never going to be energy production without envionmental impact.

"John"  wrote in message 
news:usfp84h34vj2ecu29nlsr6ggbn5ko4uc87@4ax.com...
>
>>Installing any alternative energy gadgets doesn't just give a financial
>>return (which isn't the reason most people do it anyway), it makes one 
>>aware
>>of helping the environment in other ways - by not squandering our 
>>resources.
>
> Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
> not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
> how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

Would be interesting to know the same about a conventional boiler  ...

"Andrew Gabriel"  wrote in message 
news:488c6ef4$0$755$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> In article <488c68c9$0$761$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net>,
> "Mary Fisher"  writes:
>>
>> "Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message
>> news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k4obba1.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:
>>
>>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
>>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
>>
>> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
>> even under bright sunlight conditions.
>>
>> Not a caravan fridge!
>
> Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism

And usually can be run of gas as well as electricity.

Mary

"John"  wrote in message 
news:o2gp84pm2chooe3u6nu5qd116hd5vf2hbg@4ax.com...
>
> At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
> stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
> electric and gas consumption in the next few years

I think that's the way to go.

Do we NEED all the power we use?? (as opposed to WANT)

Mary

"John"  wrote in message 
news:ojep84d4ngho73i5kv11145s56cp8b710f@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, "R D S"  wrote:
>
>>I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
>>and keep a battery charged while camping.
>>Has anyone any experience/opinions?
>
> How many solar panels would you need in addition to the deep cycle
> batteries to run it and how much would it cost?

I reckon I could do it (suitable for camping) for about 200 quid at Maplin.

> Some bloke down south spent an absolute fortune installing a wind
> turbine for his house and he doesn't generate enough electricity to
> power a shaver.
>
> You would have to calculate where you live, how much wind you're
> likely to get (realistically) and whether that would generate enough
> electricity to repay the costs of the turbine within a reasonable
> timespace.

It is rather windy where I live, slates regularly shifting about on the 
roof.

> Maybe if energy prices go sky high a solar thermal system may become
> an option for a lot of people. But you'd have to hope that the climate
> isn't going into a cooling period and we start getting less sunshine,
> and that it pays itself back a bit quicker.

Surely if we have a cooling period there will still be the same amount of 
sunshine.

I'm toying with a DIY version.
http://www.iwilltry.org/w/index.php?title=How_to_build_a_simple_solar_water_heater

"John"  wrote in message 
news:ojep84d4ngho73i5kv11145s56cp8b710f@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, "R D S"  wrote:
>
>>I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning
>>and keep a battery charged while camping.
>>Has anyone any experience/opinions?
>
> How many solar panels would you need in addition to the deep cycle
> batteries to run it and how much would it cost?
>
>>Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
>>than
>>this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local 
>>electrical
>>supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one
>>point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive 
>>but
>>now it looks as though it may sense.
>
> Some bloke down south spent an absolute fortune installing a wind
> turbine for his house and he doesn't generate enough electricity to
> power a shaver.

Evidence?
>
> You would have to calculate where you live, how much wind you're
> likely to get (realistically) and whether that would generate enough
> electricity to repay the costs of the turbine within a reasonable
> timespace.
>
> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.

Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>
> Have listened to the advice of another bloke regarding a solar
> photovoltaic system and he said you may as well just burn £50 notes.

Which people do every time they switch on lights or the tv of whatever.
>

"R D S"  wrote in message 
news:6f413bF9l131U1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> Maybe if energy prices go sky high a solar thermal system may become
>> an option for a lot of people. But you'd have to hope that the climate
>> isn't going into a cooling period and we start getting less sunshine,
>> and that it pays itself back a bit quicker.
>
> Surely if we have a cooling period there will still be the same amount of 
> sunshine.

That's right. The temperature isn't all that important. when we connected 
ours up the air temperature was 4C and we got a large cylinder full of water 
at over 30C in a few hours.

Mary

In message , John 
 writes
>
>>Recovery of capital takes a long time, but not paying utility companies
>>for their (mainly) fossil based energy should not be ignored.
>
>There will be a big shift in the next ten years to power stations that
>don't damage the environment are clean and generate enough electricity
>for everyone i.e. Nuclear Power.
>
>At the moment with rising prices for utilities and fuel people are
>stuck between a rock and a hard place. We might have to cut our
>electric and gas consumption in the next few years until more Nuclear
>Power stations are built and prices come down.


and the award for stating the bleedin' obvious goes to ...

>
>John
>
>

-- 
geoff

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:35:14 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
 wrote:

>> Some bloke down south spent an absolute fortune installing a wind
>> turbine for his house and he doesn't generate enough electricity to
>> power a shaver.
>
>Evidence?

A very great deal. David Cameron for one. 
Grand Designs several times.

We have been down this one many times as you well know.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:35:14 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
 wrote:

>> Some bloke down south spent an absolute fortune installing a wind
>> turbine for his house and he doesn't generate enough electricity to
>> power a shaver.
>
>Evidence?

http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/8.html

http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/resources/Interim+Report+May+2008.pdf

The average energy produced per day is "lower than predicted".  Across
all sites it amounts to 200Wh per day but 100Wh per day are consumed
by the controller.  On many urban sites the controller consumed more
power than the windmill produced.

The NOABL predicted wind speed was optimistic by up to 64%.

There have been noise issues on some sites and quite a number of
equipment replacements

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:36:20 +0100, John wrote:

> Would be interesting to know the total costs for making a solar panel
> not just for its useful life but from start to scrapping, as well as
> how they are made and if that's good for the environment?

What sort of "solar panel" are we talking about? Thermal or photvoltaic, 
the latter I suspect has a massive enviromental production cost to make 
the silicon wafers and the process required to turn them into photovoltaic 
cells. End of life disposal may have toruble with the chemicals/elements 
that make the cells.

A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and 
there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube 
based panel won't be so good.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On 27 Jul 2008 18:14:10 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> I have a couple and have serviced several for other people. They all 
> contain the same peltier device, which is rated 5.5A at car battery 
> charging voltage.  There maybe some larger cool boxes with two devices 
> in them.

Fairy Nuff, I was going from memory of reading the rating plates... Still 
5.5A @ 14v is still the best part of 80W and bear in mind that 120W panel 
will only do that in bright, full, sunshine... You'll probably still need 
one that size to ensure that you have enough power when it's not full 
bright sushine. And what about night time...

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

on a hot day there's a lot of work for a fridge to do,
a hippy friend of mine had his solar power fridge on all day
and got a few ice-cubes for gin at sunset

-- [george]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:01:40 UTC, "Dave Liquorice" 
 wrote:

> On 27 Jul 2008 18:14:10 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> 
> > I have a couple and have serviced several for other people. They all 
> > contain the same peltier device, which is rated 5.5A at car battery 
> > charging voltage.  There maybe some larger cool boxes with two devices 
> > in them.
> 
> Fairy Nuff, I was going from memory of reading the rating plates... Still 
> 5.5A @ 14v is still the best part of 80W and bear in mind that 120W panel 
> will only do that in bright, full, sunshine... You'll probably still need 
> one that size to ensure that you have enough power when it's not full 
> bright sushine. And what about night time...

Not much extra, but there's usually a fan as well.

-- 
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
   http://www.diybanter.com

Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:01:40 UTC, "Dave Liquorice" 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 27 Jul 2008 18:14:10 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>>
>>> I have a couple and have serviced several for other people. They all 
>>> contain the same peltier device, which is rated 5.5A at car battery 
>>> charging voltage.  There maybe some larger cool boxes with two devices 
>>> in them.
>> Fairy Nuff, I was going from memory of reading the rating plates... Still 
>> 5.5A @ 14v is still the best part of 80W and bear in mind that 120W panel 
>> will only do that in bright, full, sunshine... You'll probably still need 
>> one that size to ensure that you have enough power when it's not full 
>> bright sushine. And what about night time...
> 
> Not much extra, but there's usually a fan as well.

I have a small wine fridge that uses this type of cooler and fan. Rated 
about 75W IIRC. The main limitation is it can only drop about 15 degrees 
below ambient - which means it is only going down to 10 or 11 degrees at 
the moment.

-- 
Cheers,

John.

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|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

R D S wrote:

> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
> and keep a battery charged while camping.
> Has anyone any experience/opinions?

Perhaps, but will need a fairly serious panel...

> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further than 
> this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local electrical 
> supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500. At one 
> point I would have thought alternative power was prohibitively expensive but 
> now it looks as though it may sense. 

That is far less likely to pay off alas. The 2kW will be the maximum 
output of the turbine - probably at a wind speed of 12 m/sec. There are 
few places in the uk that average half that. Remember also that the 
power you can recover will be proportional to the *cube* of the wind 
speed. So halving the wind speed on a 2kW turbine will reduce the output 
to 500W or so. Note also that they work best with smooth air flow with 
little gusting and turbulence - which rules them out in most urban 
environments.

Solar thermal is usually your best bet in the UK if you DIY and build 
mostly from scrap. You need to chose carefully what to do with the 
energy though. Charging a heat bank or heating a swimming pool are 
probably the most useful. Lots of people go for domestic hot water 
systems, but unless you spend vast amounts on hot water it seems 
unlikely you will make any return. (most people spend less than 30% of 
their total heating costs on hot water).



-- 
Cheers,

John.

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Mary Fisher wrote:

>> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
>> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
>> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
>> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
>> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
>> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
> 
> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.

Says who? If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair 
chance it will never pay back in environment ones either.

At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about 
£100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year 
- it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700. 
Many of the commercial systems cost more than double that.

A system put together from scrap radiators etc may work out ok if you 
can keep the capital costs low and can afford to donate the time etc.


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
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"Mary Fisher"  wrote in message 
news:488c68c9$0$761$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
>
> "Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message 
> news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k4obba1.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:
>
>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
>
> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
> even under bright sunlight conditions.
>
> Not a caravan fridge!
>
That depends if it's a peltier type which uses a lot of power or the more 
expensive but lower consumption compressor type.


-- 
Chris, (on tour)
Intellect is invisible to the man who has none.
Schopenhauer

"R D S"  wrote in message 
news:6f3277F9kealU1@mid.individual.net...
>I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
>and keep a battery charged while camping.
> Has anyone any experience/opinions?
>
> Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
> than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local 
> electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx 
> £1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was 
> prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.
>

I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology Centre 
in Wales.
I first went in 1982 and have been every few years to watch the latest 
developments.
from what I saw I would go for solar power as the size of wind turbines is 
silly if
you want to power a house or charge batteries.  Why not get a diesel 
generator and
run it on old chip fat and vegetable oil - there is no law about it.
See some working demonstrations and years worth of research and data for 
yourself.
The staff will also give more info and you get the latest info on 
insulation.

Also watch out for the latest LED lightbulbs!  They look the same as a 
frosted one
but have a coating inside that is similar to what is inside a fluorescent 
tube.  A small
1watt UV LED causes it to light up a brilliant white.  So you can imagine 
what damage
this and other low energy devices are causing to power companies - that's 
why they
are putting the price up.  It's to reach the amount of profit they promised 
customers now
that demand has fallen with people becoming more energy aware.

Philips make the bulb and I have tried some of them out.  The 3watt one was 
best!

"Paul P"  wrote in message 
news:g6iigq$r0n$1@news.schnuerpel.eu...
>
> ...Why not get a diesel generator and
> run it on old chip fat and vegetable oil - there is no law 
> about it.

Oh, but there are laws that cover how you obtain such fuel. I 
very much doubt that even a large family would generate enough of 
its own waste oil to run a generator - so we are into the realms 
of collecting waste from commercial users, such as chip shops. In 
order to do that legally, in the UK, you need a waste transfer 
licence from the Environment Agency. The supplier commits an 
offence if they allow you to carry the waste oil without a 
licence, and you commit an offence if you take it without said 
licence.

-- 
MatSav

On 2008-07-28 07:13:35 +0100, "MatSav" <matthew | dot | savage | at | 
dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com> said:

> "Paul P"  wrote in message
> news:g6iigq$r0n$1@news.schnuerpel.eu...
>> 
>> ...Why not get a diesel generator and
>> run it on old chip fat and vegetable oil - there is no law
>> about it.
> 
> Oh, but there are laws that cover how you obtain such fuel. I
> very much doubt that even a large family would generate enough of
> its own waste oil to run a generator - so we are into the realms
> of collecting waste from commercial users, such as chip shops. In
> order to do that legally, in the UK, you need a waste transfer
> licence from the Environment Agency. The supplier commits an
> offence if they allow you to carry the waste oil without a
> licence, and you commit an offence if you take it without said
> licence.

Do you 'ave a leesonce for that minkey?

"Andy Hall" <andyh@hall.nospam> wrote in message 
news:488d64ff@qaanaaq...
>
> Do you 'ave a leesonce for that minkey?

No! I vas pissing by your door, ven I saw your general's outfart! 
;-)

-- 
MatSav

"John Rumm"  wrote in message 
news:vvOdnVAmX7euthDVnZ2dnUVZ8tSdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>>> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
>>> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
>>> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
>>> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
>>> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
>>> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
>>
>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>
> Says who?

Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

> If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair chance it will 
> never pay back in environment ones either.
>
> At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about 
> £100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year - 
> it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700. Many 
> of the commercial systems cost more than double that.

And power prices are more than double :-)

"Paul P"  wrote in message 
news:g6iigq$r0n$1@news.schnuerpel.eu...
>
...
>
> Also watch out for the latest LED lightbulbs!  They look the same as a 
> frosted one
> but have a coating inside that is similar to what is inside a fluorescent 
> tube.  A small
> 1watt UV LED causes it to light up a brilliant white.  So you can imagine 
> what damage
> this and other low energy devices are causing to power companies - that's 
> why they
> are putting the price up.

Oh come on!

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:38:05 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
 wrote this:-

>>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>>
>> Says who?
>
>Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.
>
>Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

Indeed. People who would probably never consider the simple payback
period on other items, double glazing, car, kitchen and so on do
claim to be interested in the simple payback period for renewable
energy "generating" items. In my view many have an emotional
opposition to renewables, or at least some forms of renewables, but
try and disguise this by bringing in other arguments.

That is certainly the case on a large scale. For example when all
the other arguments have been countered opponents of large scale
wind farms generally resort to their real objection, an emotional
argument about appearance.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:43:24 UTC, David Hansen 
 wrote:

In my view many have emotional support for renewables, or at least some 
forms of renewables, but try and disguise this by bringing in other 
arguments.

-- 
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
   http://www.diybanter.com

"Mary Fisher"  wrote in message 
news:488d85f7$0$761$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
>
> "John Rumm"  wrote in message 
> news:vvOdnVAmX7euthDVnZ2dnUVZ8tSdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>
>>>> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
>>>> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
>>>> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
>>>> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
>>>> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
>>>> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
>>>
>>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>>
>> Says who?
>
> Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

But they are green mugs who think they are helping and want to feel smug 
whatever the cost.
The reality is that cost and environmental damage tend to be related..
if its expensive it probably damages the environment.
So a long payback period means its probably not going to save any CO2 but 
may save money if fuel continues to go up.

>
> Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

Yes.

>
>> If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair chance it will 
>> never pay back in environment ones either.
>>
>> At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about 
>> £100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year - 
>> it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700. 
>> Many of the commercial systems cost more than double that.
>
> And power prices are more than double :-)

The cost to the environment hasn't doubled though.. you may save money at a 
cost to the environment.. this is the opposite of what you appear to think.
>
>

On 2008-07-28, Bob Eager  wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:43:24 UTC, David Hansen 
> wrote:
>
> In my view many have emotional support for renewables, or at least some 
> forms of renewables, but try and disguise this by bringing in other 
> arguments.

Was that Bob or David?

Whatever ... 

Hell, even I have emotional support for renewables, but they have to *work*. In
the cruel hard light of economics and physics. If they don't, there's no point
ot them, no matter how nice the idea might seem.


-- 
          "Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain
                 and presumptuous desire for a second one."
               [email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk]

Cerumen wrote:
> "Mary Fisher"  wrote in message 
> news:488c68c9$0$761$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
>> "Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message 
>> news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k4obba1.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:49:57 +0100, R D S wrote:
>>
>>> I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge
>>> runnning and keep a battery charged while camping.
>> It'll have to be a *big* (expensive) photovoltaic panel to run a fridge
>> even under bright sunlight conditions.
>>
>> Not a caravan fridge!
>>
> That depends if it's a peltier type which uses a lot of power or the more 
> expensive but lower consumption compressor type.

Other way round I would have thought? I would not have expected many 
compressors to run on 75W or less...

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

On 2008-07-28 10:43:24 +0100, David Hansen 
 said:

> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:38:05 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
>  wrote this:-
> 
>>>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>>> 
>>> Says who?
>> 
>> Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.
>> 
>> Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?
> 
> Indeed. People who would probably never consider the simple payback
> period on other items, double glazing, car, kitchen and so on do
> claim to be interested in the simple payback period for renewable
> energy "generating" items.

That's because the industry around these uses payback period as a major 
selling point, so it's their own fault.   One of the first rules of 
selling is to show the virtues of the product but not highlight the 
deficiencies.    This doesn't mean lying about the product.



>  In my view many have an emotional
> opposition to renewables, or at least some forms of renewables, but
> try and disguise this by bringing in other arguments.

Generally this is the companies selling these things.   If their 
arguments actually are weak on things like payback period, then they 
are rather stupid if they raise them.

If the argument for buying this stuff is not an economic one, but a 
feel good one, then the suppliers should emphasise that as the benefit. 
    There are people around who will buy on that basis.



> 
> That is certainly the case on a large scale. For example when all
> the other arguments have been countered opponents of large scale
> wind farms generally resort to their real objection, an emotional
> argument about appearance.

Well.....    since the arguments for having these things are emotional 
rather than practical in the first place, it seems reasonable that the 
counter arguments can, in part be emotional as well.

Mary Fisher wrote:
> "John Rumm"  wrote in message 
> news:vvOdnVAmX7euthDVnZ2dnUVZ8tSdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>
>>>> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
>>>> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
>>>> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
>>>> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
>>>> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
>>>> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
>>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>> Says who?
> 
> Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.

That being one of the problems really. Lack of any hard numbers, but 
plenty of anecdotes and testimonials from people either selling the kit, 
or from those seeking to justify their investment in it.

> Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?

No, but for something like hot water production, then yes - it is a 
significant factor. Probably secondary only to performance and suitability.

Hot water is hot water, so its difficult to have many other selling 
points.

>> If it never pays back in financial terms, there is a fair chance it will 
>> never pay back in environment ones either.
>>
>> At my previous house, I estimate my annual hot water costs were about 
>> £100. Say a solar system could save me 70% of those costs over the year - 
>> it would take ten years to recover the costs if the system cost £700. Many 
>> of the commercial systems cost more than double that.
> 
> And power prices are more than double :-)

And even then we are still looking at more than 10 years payback...

What did your Solartwin system cost including installation etc?

Once solar thermal becomes economically worthwhile, then would be the 
time to use it - volumes will have brought the prices of the hardware 
down as well. Meanwhile there is no harm in leaving the option open of 
using solar thermal if making other changes.

For something like pool heating, it is well worth doing already if you 
can DIY.



-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

On 27 Jul, 11:49, "R D S"  wrote:

> a local electrical
> supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx £1500.

I'll be amazed if anyone here can get a 2kW turbine sited anywhere
near their house (except The Natural Philosopher, who lives in a vast
ivory tower that needs 10kW of continuous heating to be habitable).

The £1500 turbines in the sheds won't produce anything like this much.
You can self-build a maximally-sized turbine (for a generous domestic-
sized plot) for a few hundred (Tim Piggott's books). You won't get
this much power though, as you just won't have (unless you're lucky)
space for a big enough blade disc.

Self-build turbines work because the generators don't have to be
unusually efficient. It's not too difficult to make one that extracts
nearly as much electrical energy from a given-sized set of blades as a
"state of the art" generator. It's only a bit harder to contrive blade
controls that let you use the blades effectively across a wide range
of windspeeds, to at least as well as commercial small-turbine
practice. With decent electronics you can certainly beat the CAT and
the large turbine they have that's still using a load bank! The hard
part, and what hurts the effective use of wind turbines on domestic
plots, is the fundamental limit of what's extractable by a given blade
diameter.

If anyone has a Welsh hillside, then go for it. But a backyard in
downtown Milton Keynes isn't going to put much of a dent in your power
bills, even if you can get permission for it.

On 27 Jul, 21:55, "Dave Liquorice" 
wrote:

> A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
> there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
> based panel won't be so good.

Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
long before your solar panels.

On 27 Jul, 16:28, meow2...@care2.com wrote:

> If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
> compressors can't be run off variable output panels.

Yes they can!  Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
the 3rd world vaccine fridges.

Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.

On 27 Jul, 13:41, Invisible Man <Invisi...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Do not assume a wind turbine will run maintenance free forever.

Domestic-sized ones (and Rutlands) do. Given their replacement cost /
access cost, thhe only practical option is a "sealed for life"
approach. When it finally goes, then you're looking at _replacing_ the
entire generator / hub / swivel package. As the blades will usually
have a shorter life, they'd be replaced too - and probably had been
beforehand.

The important factor here is to allow for blade replacement, and
ideally blade replacement up-tower. Sealed-for-life design does at
least mean an opportunity for decent weather sealing.

On 28 Jul, 03:00, John Rumm  wrote:
> Remember also that the
> power you can recover will be proportional to the *cube* of the wind
> speed. So halving the wind speed on a 2kW turbine will reduce the output
> to 500W or so.

You should be able to do better than that, with decent blade design.

The _maximum_ power you can hope to extract varies with the cube of
wind speed. Now the extractable power is a proportion of that,
depending on the efficiency of your blades. This efficiency isn't
constant. If you design the blades for best efficiency at lower speeds
then you can reduce this falloff to much better than a cube law.
They're less efficient at higher speeds, but then you have power to
waste.

This only applies for small turbines, not for commercial generators.
But for blade lengths under 1m (or 2m if you have an autoclave and can
use composites) you can throw a "flimsy" low-speed blade up in a high
wind and it will still survive it, just thanks to the scaling laws.

Paul P said...
> >I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
> >and keep a battery charged while camping.
> > Has anyone any experience/opinions?
> >
> > Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
> > than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local 
> > electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx 
> > £1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was 
> > prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.
> >
> 
> I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology Centre 
> in Wales.

Marvellous place. 
http://www.cat.org.uk/

-- 
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the 
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.

Andy Dingley said...
> If anyone has a Welsh hillside, then go for it. But a backyard in
> downtown Milton Keynes isn't going to put much of a dent in your power
> bills, even if you can get permission for it.
> 
Why? What have Welsh hills done to you?

-- 
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the 
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.

Andy Dingley  wrote:

>On 27 Jul, 16:28, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
>
>> If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
>> compressors can't be run off variable output panels.
>
>Yes they can!  Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
>the 3rd world vaccine fridges.
>
>Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
>only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.


My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor.  It is a very low noise
compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down.  It cost
me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
conventional 3-way fridge.  But it will run for many hours off a
leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce  wrote:

>Andy Dingley  wrote:
>
>>On 27 Jul, 16:28, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
>>
>>> If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
>>> compressors can't be run off variable output panels.
>>
>>Yes they can!  Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
>>the 3rd world vaccine fridges.
>>
>>Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
>>only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.
>
>
>My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor.  It is a very low noise
>compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down.  It cost
>me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
>conventional 3-way fridge.  But it will run for many hours off a
>leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
>hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.
>
> 
Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?

You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
penny.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:19:23 +0100, EricP 
wrote:

Sorry, forgot the breathing mask and scrubber to wear whilst pedaling
to absorb the CO2 you were breathing out.

"John Rumm"  wrote in message 
news:PZWdna9AfKMzaxDVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>> "John Rumm"  wrote in message 
>> news:vvOdnVAmX7euthDVnZ2dnUVZ8tSdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
>>>>> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
>>>>> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
>>>>> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
>>>>> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
>>>>> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
>>>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>>> Says who?
>>
>> Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.
>
> That being one of the problems really. Lack of any hard numbers, but 
> plenty of anecdotes and testimonials from people either selling the kit, 
> or from those seeking to justify their investment in it.

The same applies to the protagonists.
>
>> Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?
>
> No, but for something like hot water production, then yes - it is a 
> significant factor. Probably secondary only to performance and 
> suitability.

But why not everything else you pay for?
>
...
>
> What did your Solartwin system cost including installation etc?

<sigh.

We've been through this. Just over £2,000. We installed it ourselves.
>
> Once solar thermal becomes economically worthwhile,

We think it is/has been already.

>
> For something like pool heating, it is well worth doing already if you can 
> DIY.

POOL heating???

Now I know you're not thinking environmentally :-)

Mary

"Fran"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.22f829a1ac78738398e675@news.individual.net...
>>
>> I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology 
>> Centre
>> in Wales.
>
> Marvellous place.
> http://www.cat.org.uk/

I'm not too sure about that (yes I've been) but an interest in alternative 
technology is a good sign.

Mary

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:

>> A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
>> there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
>> based panel won't be so good.
> 
> Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
> tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
> long before your solar panels.

I was thinking of the chemical used in the internal heat pipe. I don't 
know what it is though...

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:15:12 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:28:12 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>>> A simple thermal solar panel probably isn't to bad dfor production and
>>> there isn't a "nasty chemicals" problem at end of life. A vacuum tube
>>> based panel won't be so good.
>> 
>> Why not? They're only a very soft vacuum. If you're worried about the
>> tiny pollution problem from the getters, then take a look at your TV
>> long before your solar panels.
>
>I was thinking of the chemical used in the internal heat pipe. I don't 
>know what it is though...

But you'll post an accusation that it's a disposal hazard without
bothering to find out?

I obviously can't speak for all of them, but most are simply acetone.

"EricP"  wrote in message 
news:tk6s841pf93d4o5t1q1ldom4rf0a60n5o1@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce  wrote:
>
>>Andy Dingley  wrote:
>>
>>>On 27 Jul, 16:28, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
>>>> compressors can't be run off variable output panels.
>>>
>>>Yes they can!  Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
>>>the 3rd world vaccine fridges.
>>>
>>>Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
>>>only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.
>>
>>
>>My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor.  It is a very low noise
>>compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down.  It cost
>>me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
>>conventional 3-way fridge.  But it will run for many hours off a
>>leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
>>hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.
>>
>>
> Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?
>
> You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
> buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
> disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
> to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
> camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
> having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
> penny.

How very childish.>

"Mary Fisher"  wrote:

>
>"EricP"  wrote in message 
>news:tk6s841pf93d4o5t1q1ldom4rf0a60n5o1@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce  wrote:
>>
>>>Andy Dingley  wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 27 Jul, 16:28, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
>>>>> compressors can't be run off variable output panels.
>>>>
>>>>Yes they can!  Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
>>>>the 3rd world vaccine fridges.
>>>>
>>>>Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
>>>>only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.
>>>
>>>
>>>My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor.  It is a very low noise
>>>compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down.  It cost
>>>me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
>>>conventional 3-way fridge.  But it will run for many hours off a
>>>leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
>>>hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.
>>>
>>>
>> Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?
>>
>> You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
>> buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
>> disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
>> to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
>> camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
>> having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
>> penny.
>
>How very childish. 



Only "very"?  It's no wonder he resides in my kill file.  ;-)

Fran  wrote:

>Paul P said...
>> >I have been thinking about getting a solar panel to keep a fridge runnning 
>> >and keep a battery charged while camping.
>> > Has anyone any experience/opinions?
>> >
>> > Also with energy prices being the way they are has anyone gone further 
>> > than this and installed solar in the home? Likewise with wind, a local 
>> > electrical supplier reckoned he could get me a 2kw turbine for approx 
>> > £1500. At one point I would have thought alternative power was 
>> > prohibitively expensive but now it looks as though it may sense.
>> >
>> 
>> I would suggest a trip to a place called the Alternative Technology Centre 
>> in Wales.
>
>Marvellous place. 
>http://www.cat.org.uk/


I found it a disappointment.  I had high hopes for it, and at first,
it seemed to be developing into an extremely useful resource.  

However, it has since been developed (should that be "diverted"?) into
a tourist attraction with a green theme.  Nice organic food, lots of
eco-friendly people, but far too dependent on the revenue from mass
tourism (itself hardly a green activity) to make a real and lasting
difference to society.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:47:41 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
 wrote:

>
>"EricP"  wrote in message 
>news:tk6s841pf93d4o5t1q1ldom4rf0a60n5o1@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:51:34 +0100, Bruce  wrote:
>>
>>>Andy Dingley  wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 27 Jul, 16:28, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you're running this batteryless it'll have to be a peltier type, as
>>>>> compressors can't be run off variable output panels.
>>>>
>>>>Yes they can!  Getting that to work was the innovation that allowed
>>>>the 3rd world vaccine fridges.
>>>>
>>>>Do caravans (ie. cheap retail mass market) use compressors (yet)? My
>>>>only experience with them even pre-dates the Peltiers.
>>>
>>>
>>>My camper van's 12V fridge uses a compressor.  It is a very low noise
>>>compressor and you cannot hear it start up, run or shut down.  It cost
>>>me a fortune, well over twice the cost of a larger Electrolux
>>>conventional 3-way fridge.  But it will run for many hours off a
>>>leisure battery when the engine isn't running and there's no 230V
>>>hook-up, which is why I thought it was worth it.
>>>
>>>
>> Are you sure you should have posted that in a thread like this?
>>
>> You should have said something along the lines that you spent £3000
>> buying a bicycle and cut it up, keeping the pedals and chain,
>> disposing of the scrap in the appropriate bin/bag, then got a mortgage
>> to fund a generator, to go with the pedals, to sit in the back of your
>> camper, pedaling for eighteen hours a day, to power the fridge, and
>> having a warm green eco-friendly feeling, and it was worth every
>> penny.
>
>How very childish.> 
>
Oh Mary!

I promise I will buy a windmill to make it up to you.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:00:30 +0100, Bruce  wrote:

>I found it a disappointment.  I had high hopes for it, and at first,
>it seemed to be developing into an extremely useful resource.  

I went there shortly after it started.  At the time they were deeply
(in more ways than one) into pig manure.  Unfortunately it was staffed
by people high on ecocentricity (and I suspect interesting plants) and
short on practical ability.  They also didn't understand it rains in
Wales.  The combination of a hot wet summer and complete lack of
practical ability (they held lots of meetings to reach consensus)
meant you could navigate the last 10 miles by sense of smell and
following the brown stream along the road.

Mary Fisher wrote:
> "John Rumm"  wrote in message 
> news:PZWdna9AfKMzaxDVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>> "John Rumm"  wrote in message 
>>> news:vvOdnVAmX7euthDVnZ2dnUVZ8tSdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I read a post from a bloke however who did install a solar thermal
>>>>>> system, where its only used to heat water. He said he noticed a big
>>>>>> drop in his bills, maybe as much as a third. It did cost a heck of a
>>>>>> lot to install though and that's when he still did a lot of the work
>>>>>> himself and got a grant. Plus he will have to stay put for 20 odd
>>>>>> years for it to repay itself and have been worth it.
>>>>> Not true. But payback isn't an issue.
>>>> Says who?
>>> Says me and all the people I know who have invested in such devices.
>> That being one of the problems really. Lack of any hard numbers, but 
>> plenty of anecdotes and testimonials from people either selling the kit, 
>> or from those seeking to justify their investment in it.
> 
> The same applies to the protagonists.

Perhaps, but I see no shortage of hard numbers from them (us).

>>> Do you consider the payback time on everything you buy?
>> No, but for something like hot water production, then yes - it is a 
>> significant factor. Probably secondary only to performance and 
>> suitability.
> 
> But why not everything else you pay for?

For many things the payback is a more complex package of benefits and 
returns. Ultimately though, if they return is not worth it, then why do it?

I don't expect a direct financial return from buying and running a car. 
However it allows me to do my job and I get pleasure from driving it.

>> What did your Solartwin system cost including installation etc?
> 
> <sigh.
> 
> We've been through this. Just over £2,000. We installed it ourselves.

I recall discussing it, I could not remember if you had said how much it 
had cost though.

I presume it would be a fair bit more if it were installed as well. IIRC 
us southerners with liquid chalk for water, also need to provide 
softening for it as well (not that does not in itself have financial 
paybacks - but it ups the capital costs a bit more)

>> Once solar thermal becomes economically worthwhile,
> 
> We think it is/has been already.

You mean it has saved you more than £2000 already, or you mean that it 
was worth it for other reasons?

>> For something like pool heating, it is well worth doing already if you can 
>> DIY.
> 
> POOL heating???
> 
> Now I know you're not thinking environmentally :-)

Well depends on how you look at it. If you want a heated pool, and solar 
makes good environmental and financial sense then you may as well take 
advantage of it.  Not only that, saves petrol driving to a pool! ;-)


-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:31:45 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
 wrote:

>> Also, caravan fridges are often adsorption or peltier mechanism
>
>And usually can be run of gas as well as electricity.

Less so these days. The Peltiers can't. 

Even though a Peltier is generally thought of as inefficient, it's
better (and much cheaper) than an electrically-heated gas fridge, so
Peltiers are coming to dominate.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:00:30 +0100, Bruce wrote:

> I found it a disappointment.  I had high hopes for it, and at first,
> it seemed to be developing into an extremely useful resource.  

I wasn't impressed about 30 years ago, a few old radiators producing luke 
warm water, a compost heap and a hydralic ram summed it up. 

Also many of the alternatives where effectively new build rather than 
retro fit. Until the likes of Barrat and Wimpy are forced to fit solar 
systems to their new housing and for those with more than a pocket 
handkerchief garden groudsource underfloor heating nothing much is going 
to change.

> However, it has since been developed (should that be "diverted"?) into
> a tourist attraction with a green theme.  Nice organic food, lots of
> eco-friendly people, but far too dependent on the revenue from mass
> tourism (itself hardly a green activity) to make a real and lasting
> difference to society.

It rasies the profile of what can be done but these days most people 
aren't capable of changing a tap washer let alone designing and installing 
a solar heating system. They have money though and may be willing to part 
with that fopr someone to come and do it for them, the brighter ones want 
impartial advice on the variations that are out there. CAT may well be 
able to fullfill that need.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.