On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:34:44 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:

>Tom Crispin wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:40:21 +0100, JNugent  wrote:
>> 
>>> You would never expect all of the parked cars in a row next to the kerb 
>>> to sprout drivers, have their engines turned on and to move off one 
>>> after the other, all within a few seconds.
>>>
>>> Well, no-one normal would.
>> 
>> 20% of deaths and serious injuries among London's cyclists are by a
>> driver or passenger opening their car door into the path of a cyclist.
>
>Perhaps, bearing in mind the substantial difference between "deaths" and 
>   "serious injuries", you could tell us the number of deaths and the 
>number of serious injuries sustained by cyclists riding into car doors.

Given that the number of cyclists killed on London's roads is small I
expect the number killed by drivers or their passengers opening their
door into the path of a cyclist is nil or single digits.

The biggest cause of death alone is from lorry drivers pulling
alongside cyclists at red lights and then turning left - just one
reason why passing the stop line on red is common among London's
cyclists, and something, though illegal, I would strongly recommend to
cyclists who find a truck alongside at red lights.

Even better still would be for the cyclist to be in primary position
at lights, but that does little good at multi-lanes roads where lorry
drivers may well be in the outer lane.

Here are examples of good and bad positioning.
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/position/bad
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/position/good
(apologies for the poor quality of the pictures)

Tom Crispin wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:34:44 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:
> 
>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:40:21 +0100, JNugent  wrote:
>>>
>>>> You would never expect all of the parked cars in a row next to the kerb 
>>>> to sprout drivers, have their engines turned on and to move off one 
>>>> after the other, all within a few seconds.
>>>>
>>>> Well, no-one normal would.
>>> 20% of deaths and serious injuries among London's cyclists are by a
>>> driver or passenger opening their car door into the path of a cyclist.
>> Perhaps, bearing in mind the substantial difference between "deaths" and 
>>   "serious injuries", you could tell us the number of deaths and the 
>> number of serious injuries sustained by cyclists riding into car doors.
> 
> Given that the number of cyclists killed on London's roads is small I
> expect the number killed by drivers or their passengers opening their
> door into the path of a cyclist is nil or single digits.
> 

Snips bits not even remotely related to the opening of car doors.


So the emotive "20% of deaths..." is just a load of crap, then? Surely 
someone has accurate figures for something as important as the number of 
avoidable deaths in the situation described, given the prominence that 
you afford it? Perhaps they also have figures for the number of such 
accidents where death does not occur?

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:22:43 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:

>Tom Crispin wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:34:44 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:
>> 
>>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:40:21 +0100, JNugent  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You would never expect all of the parked cars in a row next to the kerb 
>>>>> to sprout drivers, have their engines turned on and to move off one 
>>>>> after the other, all within a few seconds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, no-one normal would.
>>>> 20% of deaths and serious injuries among London's cyclists are by a
>>>> driver or passenger opening their car door into the path of a cyclist.
>>> Perhaps, bearing in mind the substantial difference between "deaths" and 
>>>   "serious injuries", you could tell us the number of deaths and the 
>>> number of serious injuries sustained by cyclists riding into car doors.
>> 
>> Given that the number of cyclists killed on London's roads is small I
>> expect the number killed by drivers or their passengers opening their
>> door into the path of a cyclist is nil or single digits.
>> 
>
>Snips bits not even remotely related to the opening of car doors.
>
>
>So the emotive "20% of deaths..." is just a load of crap, then? Surely 
>someone has accurate figures for something as important as the number of 
>avoidable deaths in the situation described, given the prominence that 
>you afford it? Perhaps they also have figures for the number of such 
>accidents where death does not occur?

So you'd prefer that I quote the percentage of serious injuries caused
by drivers or their passengers opening their door into the path of
cyclists and ignore the small number of deaths?

Tom Crispin wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:22:43 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:
> 
>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:34:44 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:40:21 +0100, JNugent  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You would never expect all of the parked cars in a row next to the kerb 
>>>>>> to sprout drivers, have their engines turned on and to move off one 
>>>>>> after the other, all within a few seconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, no-one normal would.
>>>>> 20% of deaths and serious injuries among London's cyclists are by a
>>>>> driver or passenger opening their car door into the path of a cyclist.
>>>> Perhaps, bearing in mind the substantial difference between "deaths" and 
>>>>   "serious injuries", you could tell us the number of deaths and the 
>>>> number of serious injuries sustained by cyclists riding into car doors.
>>> Given that the number of cyclists killed on London's roads is small I
>>> expect the number killed by drivers or their passengers opening their
>>> door into the path of a cyclist is nil or single digits.
>>>
>> Snips bits not even remotely related to the opening of car doors.
>>
>>
>> So the emotive "20% of deaths..." is just a load of crap, then? Surely 
>> someone has accurate figures for something as important as the number of 
>> avoidable deaths in the situation described, given the prominence that 
>> you afford it? Perhaps they also have figures for the number of such 
>> accidents where death does not occur?
> 
> So you'd prefer that I quote the percentage of serious injuries caused
> by drivers or their passengers opening their door into the path of
> cyclists and ignore the small number of deaths?

Not at all, but there is an inherent dishonesty in combining the two 
groups for statistical purposes. Someone has, however, been good enough 
to post the relevant figures, stressing the dangers of cyclists riding 
into open car doors!

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!