The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
Alistair Darling has admitted.

Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
of the bag" about the state of the economy.

He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/uk-facing-worst-economic-crisis-518391.html

"St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
message 
news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>
> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>
> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.

I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio this 
morning.

Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.

The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers who 
aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

We could do with those gold reserves Gordon the Brown-nose sold off at
a massive loss(a loss for us Brits at least).The rotten edifice is
crumbling nicely.I can`t see how call-me-Dave will be able to pull off
another Thatcherite economic "miracle", seeing as everything`s already
been sold off to foreigners. Let the "bad" times roll!

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...

>
> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
> this morning.
>
> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>
> The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers 
> who aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.
>
> -- 
> William Black
>
Wrong its a basket case because of socialist policies, they always fail 
because socialism relies on the ever declining numbers of tax payers bailing 
out ever more scroungers. We need to cut the social benefits handouts by 
90%, Stop JCS, Stop Housing benefit, Stop Council tax benefit,  only help 
the elderly who have worked and paid taxes, not the scum who blew their 
money in the pub for the last 60 years like most left wing scum.

On Sep 1, 3:47 pm, "\"The Rifleman\""  wrote:
> "William Black"  wrote in message
>
> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>
>
> > I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio
> > this morning.
>
> > Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>
> > The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers
> > who aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> Wrong its a basket case because of socialist policies, they always fail
> because socialism relies on the ever declining numbers of tax payers bailing
> out ever more scroungers. We need to cut the social benefits handouts by
> 90%, Stop JCS, Stop Housing benefit, Stop Council tax benefit,  only help
> the elderly who have worked and paid taxes, not the scum who blew their
> money in the pub for the last 60 years like most left wing scum.

There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending up
to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
on……………..Sheer madness.  They have only done so because  by showing
huge growth, the execs. could claim handsome bonuses running into
millions.  The government  (the Lib/Lab/Con Party)  have allowed this
to carry on because it has helped build up a thriving economy which is
in fact……………Totally false. This is why service industries, retailers,
builders, pubs, restaurants  etc etc,  are going to go belly-up by the
score.

I personally believe that their should be an enquiry into the way some
building societies and banks  have behaved in the past few years.
Northern rock is a good example of a company  growing to big for its
financial boots.  In a properly organised society, some big names
would be heading for a spell behind bars for what they have allowed
and encouraged to happen.

Houses are now in a steep decline and will continue this way for a
long time yet. They are far to expensive. They have only reached the
ridiculous prices that they are now because lenders have been lending
foolishly, even criminally some may think. This has allowed prices to
rise inexorably to the levels they are at now.

You can “betcha-life” that The Lib/Lab/Con Party will try to cover
this steep decline by allowing inflation to rip. If houses drop by
say, just 10%  annually   for the next three years, that will be a
much larger drop then  it seems. Inflation is a governments way of
stealing from the people, to a visible fall of say around 30% you will
have to add the inflation rate, therefore over three years that could
be around  60% or even more. The banks will be saved this way and the
Lib/Lab/Con Party can spin, spin and spin its way out of the
situation . Only the folks who were silly enough to vote for these
trollops will suffer.

We are in for a decade of financial depression, reality will clear the
air though, we will begin to see the world as it really is.

Hm!………..Quarter of a million pound a week footballers, semi-detached
ordinary properties selling for hundreds of thousands of pounds,
media personalities reaping in billions for doing nothing. And the
rest of the make-believe Disney land world that we have been living in
will go “phut”.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 09:41:41 -0700 (PDT), Jon° 
wrote:

>On Sep 1, 3:47 pm, "\"The Rifleman\""  wrote:
>> "William Black"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>>
>>
>> > I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio
>> > this morning.
>>
>> > Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>
>> > The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers
>> > who aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.
>>
>> > --
>> > William Black
>>
>> Wrong its a basket case because of socialist policies, they always fail
>> because socialism relies on the ever declining numbers of tax payers bailing
>> out ever more scroungers. We need to cut the social benefits handouts by
>> 90%, Stop JCS, Stop Housing benefit, Stop Council tax benefit,  only help
>> the elderly who have worked and paid taxes, not the scum who blew their
>> money in the pub for the last 60 years like most left wing scum.
>
>There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending up
>to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>on……………..Sheer madness.  They have only done so because  by showing
>huge growth, the execs. could claim handsome bonuses running into
>millions.  The government  (the Lib/Lab/Con Party)  have allowed this
>to carry on because it has helped build up a thriving economy which is
>in fact……………Totally false. This is why service industries, retailers,
>builders, pubs, restaurants  etc etc,  are going to go belly-up by the
>score.
>
>I personally believe that their should be an enquiry into the way some
>building societies and banks  have behaved in the past few years.
>Northern rock is a good example of a company  growing to big for its
>financial boots.  In a properly organised society, some big names
>would be heading for a spell behind bars for what they have allowed
>and encouraged to happen.

the clown put in place a regime that was bound to achieve
    such results....

the banks have now gotten their 'customers'/mugs heavily over
     committed...the great majority of those will struggle for years
     to keep paying the banks....

if banks do get into difficulty the clown will seek to bail them
     out with taxes...every large scale banker knows that....

>Houses are now in a steep decline and will continue this way for a
>long time yet. They are far to expensive. They have only reached the
>ridiculous prices that they are now because lenders have been lending
>foolishly, even criminally some may think. This has allowed prices to
>rise inexorably to the levels they are at now.

trying to shift government responsibility onto banks is
     economic illiteracy and political tripe served up to the
     ignorant....

>You can “betcha-life” that The Lib/Lab/Con Party will try to cover
>this steep decline by allowing inflation to rip.

the clown has been running a heavily inflationary policy as
     i have been warning you for many years....

the clown was bequeathed controlled inflation....he has pissed
     it away as socialists always do...
inflation is just another word for 'tax'

> If houses drop by
>say, just 10%  annually   for the next three years, that will be a
>much larger drop then  it seems. Inflation is a governments way of
>stealing from the people, to a visible fall of say around 30% you will
>have to add the inflation rate, therefore over three years that could
>be around  60% or even more. The banks will be saved this way and the
>Lib/Lab/Con Party can spin, spin and spin its way out of the
>situation . Only the folks who were silly enough to vote for these
>trollops will suffer.
>
>We are in for a decade of financial depression, reality will clear the
>air though, we will begin to see the world as it really is.

you don't understand money or politics...
or the intimate relationships between them...

you don't understand the modern world....

you are sheep...the place of a leftist government place is to sheer
    you regularly and fatten you up for christmas....
leftist governments believe you are cattle...often they are not
    disappointed...
treat people as cattle and they end up mooing...just as you are
    doing right now....

>Hm!………..Quarter of a million pound a week footballers, semi-detached
>ordinary properties selling for hundreds of thousands of pounds,
>media personalities reaping in billions for doing nothing. And the
>rest of the make-believe Disney land world that we have been living in
>will go “phut”.

this last is absolute irrelevancy......just more dumb socialist class
     envy

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
> message 
> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>
>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>
>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>
> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
> this morning.
>
> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.

Which programme was this?

> The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers 
> who aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.

That's a fact?

Churchill had the labour party summed up perfectly when he said " The lefts 
idea of creating wealth is through high taxation and high public spending, 
thats exactly the same as standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself 
up".

Capitalism is sadly the unequal sharing of wealth, but socialism is the 
equal sharing of misery, as all those parasites, scroungers and fools who 
voted for Blair and Brown are now finding out.   Wilson / Callaghan / Healy 
were exactly the same and just as disasterous.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:19:04 +0100, "\"The Rifleman\""
 wrote:

>Churchill had the labour party summed up perfectly when he said " The lefts 
>idea of creating wealth is through high taxation and high public spending, 
>thats exactly the same as standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself 
>up".
>
>Capitalism is sadly the unequal sharing of wealth, but socialism is the 
>equal sharing of misery, as all those parasites, scroungers and fools who 
>voted for Blair and Brown are now finding out.   Wilson / Callaghan / Healy 
>were exactly the same and just as disasterous. 

it is unfair to ignore the great blame that must attach to the leftist
    coup in the tory party, which has left the country leaderless for
    ten years, until cameron (with a short intermission with ids)...

the tory party is guilty of great dereliction of duty thereby allowing
    the ten years of (habitually) destructive socialism...
imv there is greater blame for that tory failure than any failure
    of 'new' labour....anyone sane expects socialists to behave as
    they have....
tories know a great deal better and are therefore more culpable


-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the Government spent cash saving Jaguar instead of Northern Rock
and didn't give so much away in overseas aid and too welfare
scroungers who they reward with a free council house then UK would be
in much better state.

"count zero"  wrote in message 
news:8c4abfe8-9f7c-4ba9-a906-00d79276d9b7@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> If the Government spent cash saving Jaguar instead of Northern Rock
> and didn't give so much away in overseas aid and too welfare
> scroungers who they reward with a free council house then UK would be
> in much better state.

Note how the companies that fail badly are the ones with a long history of 
trade unionism ?, British steel, rover/ BL, British shipyards,. NCB etc etc 
we should only support companies that ban trade unions.

"Jon°"  wrote in message 
news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>on……………..Sheer madness.


Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some kind 
of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's lurking 
out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a little bit 
of schadenfreude.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:20:57 +0100, "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>"Jon°"  wrote in message 
>news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...

>>There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>>away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>>concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>>to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>>on……………..Sheer madness.

>Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
>'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some kind 
>of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's lurking 
>out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a little bit 
>of schadenfreude.

may i bring to your attention
1)as yet there is nothing that can be reasonably described as a
    'crash'...
2)that if your 'forecast' a crash in every market year after year,
    eventually you'll be able to claim to be correct...it is the
    stopped clock fallacy....
3)if people had gone out of the market at the point of the first
    posters babbling about 'crashes'...they would have missed a
    great deal of the rise...

more to the point...
hindsight is a wondrous thing....the fact remains that nobody can
    predict the future...nobody...
as confucius says, 'people who follow tipsters tend to lose shirts'

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Black wrote:
> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
> message 
> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>
>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>
>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
> 
> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio this 
> morning.
> 
> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
> 
> The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers who 
> aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.
> 

Ah, so it's absolutely nothing to do with this bankrupt government then?

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:19:04 +0100, "\"The Rifleman\""
>  wrote:
> 
>> Churchill had the labour party summed up perfectly when he said " The lefts 
>> idea of creating wealth is through high taxation and high public spending, 
>> thats exactly the same as standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself 
>> up".
>>
>> Capitalism is sadly the unequal sharing of wealth, but socialism is the 
>> equal sharing of misery, as all those parasites, scroungers and fools who 
>> voted for Blair and Brown are now finding out.   Wilson / Callaghan / Healy 
>> were exactly the same and just as disasterous. 
> 
> it is unfair to ignore the great blame that must attach to the leftist
>     coup in the tory party, which has left the country leaderless for
>     ten years, until cameron (with a short intermission with ids)...
> 
> the tory party is guilty of great dereliction of duty thereby allowing
>     the ten years of (habitually) destructive socialism...
> imv there is greater blame for that tory failure than any failure
>     of 'new' labour....anyone sane expects socialists to behave as
>     they have....
> tories know a great deal better and are therefore more culpable
> 
> 

Ah, nothing to do with the voters at all, then?

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

Ivan wrote:
> 
> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>> on……………..Sheer madness.
> 
> 
> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some 
> kind of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's 
> lurking out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a 
> little bit of schadenfreude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
It's good to have a little bit schadenfreude to wallow in, oh yes.

:-)

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:11:23 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:19:04 +0100, "\"The Rifleman\""
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Churchill had the labour party summed up perfectly when he said " The lefts 
>>> idea of creating wealth is through high taxation and high public spending, 
>>> thats exactly the same as standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself 
>>> up".
>>>
>>> Capitalism is sadly the unequal sharing of wealth, but socialism is the 
>>> equal sharing of misery, as all those parasites, scroungers and fools who 
>>> voted for Blair and Brown are now finding out.   Wilson / Callaghan / Healy 
>>> were exactly the same and just as disasterous. 
>> 
>> it is unfair to ignore the great blame that must attach to the leftist
>>     coup in the tory party, which has left the country leaderless for
>>     ten years, until cameron (with a short intermission with ids)...
>> 
>> the tory party is guilty of great dereliction of duty thereby allowing
>>     the ten years of (habitually) destructive socialism...
>> imv there is greater blame for that tory failure than any failure
>>     of 'new' labour....anyone sane expects socialists to behave as
>>     they have....
>> tories know a great deal better and are therefore more culpable

>Ah, nothing to do with the voters at all, then?

when the voters have no real choice....
when most people get very little useful social education...
    http://www.abelard.org/civil/civil.htm

do you wish to 'blame' a chav who lives in a dysfunctional
     (very likely work free) family and attended a sink state school 
     and has managed to leave at 16 (probably after some truancy)
     in a semi-literate state....
     to be able to make useful political decisions, let alone
     to act effectively in a political context....?

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>
> "William Black"  wrote in message 
> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>> message 
>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>
>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>
>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>
>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>> this morning.
>>
>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>
> Which programme was this?

Today,  BBC Radio 4.


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"®i©ardo"  wrote in message 
news:BXYuk.65137$Ff2.12379@newsfe13.ams2...
> Ivan wrote:
>>
>> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
>> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>>> on……………..Sheer madness.
>>
>>
>> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
>> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some 
>> kind of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's 
>> lurking out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a 
>> little bit of schadenfreude.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> It's good to have a little bit schadenfreude to wallow in, oh yes.
>
> :-)

As I frequently do, I'm pretty sure that I must have a slightly masochistic 
streak in me somewhere!. Let me see now, where be that blackbird too, I know 
where he be ;)

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:4coob4tohpl1q745vbs83p666caerv3cpl@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:11:23 +0100, ®i©ardo  wrote:
>
>>abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:19:04 +0100, "\"The Rifleman\""
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Churchill had the labour party summed up perfectly when he said " The 
>>>> lefts
>>>> idea of creating wealth is through high taxation and high public 
>>>> spending,
>>>> thats exactly the same as standing in a bucket and trying to lift 
>>>> yourself
>>>> up".
>>>>
>>>> Capitalism is sadly the unequal sharing of wealth, but socialism is the
>>>> equal sharing of misery, as all those parasites, scroungers and fools 
>>>> who
>>>> voted for Blair and Brown are now finding out.   Wilson / Callaghan / 
>>>> Healy
>>>> were exactly the same and just as disasterous.
>>>
>>> it is unfair to ignore the great blame that must attach to the leftist
>>>     coup in the tory party, which has left the country leaderless for
>>>     ten years, until cameron (with a short intermission with ids)...
>>>
>>> the tory party is guilty of great dereliction of duty thereby allowing
>>>     the ten years of (habitually) destructive socialism...
>>> imv there is greater blame for that tory failure than any failure
>>>     of 'new' labour....anyone sane expects socialists to behave as
>>>     they have....
>>> tories know a great deal better and are therefore more culpable
>
>>Ah, nothing to do with the voters at all, then?
>
> when the voters have no real choice....

And even if we accept that the parties are "different", many voters don't 
get to choose.  A vote for the Tories in Sheffield would be wasted, as would 
a vote for Labour in Guildford.

tim

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:g9ho7u$oqf$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
> news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>
>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>>> message 
>>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>>
>>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>>
>>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>>
>>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>>> this morning.
>>>
>>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>
>> Which programme was this?
>
> Today,  BBC Radio 4.

Oh, OK. I heard some of that too. I don't remember the Tories arguing 
Darling should have lied to help rich businessmen.

Inflation caused, directly or indirectly, by a shortage of oil is 
unavoidable. This was even predicted by a TV programme more that 10 years 
ago by comparing the expected rise in demand with shortfall in supply.

House price inflation was caused by Banks being allowed into the housing 
market - previously dominated by numerous Building Societies. The 
Societies were basicly only allowed to lend what their customers/owners 
deposited with them. This restricted the amount lent out for mortgages to 
roughly what the economy could stand. But the Banks used international 
credit to finance mortgages, apparently mostly funny money. This allowed 
them to lend money they didn't have, to many people who could barely 
afford to repay the debt. A side effect being the loss of most Building 
Societies.

The long term solution is obvious. Restore the situation to before the 
Banks became involved in mortgages. Make Building Societies compeditive 
again and restrict Bank lending for homes using the tax system.
-- 
gbh
gbh04 is a spamtrap - all post is deleted at server

In uk.finance Ivan <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some kind 
> of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's lurking 
> out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a little bit 
> of schadenfreude.

The question is: will Property Porn Television supply it?

FoFP







-- 
"They say there are no atheists in a foxhole. Well, there
are no libertarians in a financial crisis, either."

                                 --Harvard economist Jeffrey Frankel

GBH  wrote:

> The long term solution is obvious. Restore the situation to before the 
> Banks became involved in mortgages. Make Building Societies compeditive 
> again and restrict Bank lending for homes using the tax system.

Seems to me that the markets are doing a reasonable job of fixing
themselves. People need to save a reasonable deposit to get a loan. The
banks won't lend recklessly. Borrowers won't borrow stupidly. 

Really, it's all good and they should leave well alone.

FoFP

Ivan wrote:
> 
> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>> on……………..Sheer madness.
> 
> 
> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some 
> kind of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's 
> lurking out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a 
> little bit of schadenfreude.
> 

I remember him.
People seem to have two modes - denial and hysteria and not much 
inbetween. The house price crash was completely forseeable and I cannot 
understand why some people just denied it. Some are still denying it, 
saying that property is going to go through the roof - maybe they are 
trying to prevent panic selling.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:20:57 +0100, "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
> 
>> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
>> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>>> on……………..Sheer madness.
> 
>> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
>> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some kind 
>> of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's lurking 
>> out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a little bit 
>> of schadenfreude.
> 
> may i bring to your attention
> 1)as yet there is nothing that can be reasonably described as a
>     'crash'...

Please define a 'crash', which I take to mean a sudden and 
disproportionate fall in prices/sales. This has certainly happened.

> 2)that if your 'forecast' a crash in every market year after year,
>     eventually you'll be able to claim to be correct...it is the
>     stopped clock fallacy....
> 3)if people had gone out of the market at the point of the first
>     posters babbling about 'crashes'...they would have missed a
>     great deal of the rise...

Houses have been getting harder to sell for nearly two years. The crash 
talk didn't start until the last year.

> more to the point...
> hindsight is a wondrous thing....the fact remains that nobody can
>     predict the future...nobody...

Well I did, and so did house price crash man.

> as confucius says, 'people who follow tipsters tend to lose shirts'
> 

Or as I say, read all the available information and make your own tips 
and you can't go far wrong.

In uk.finance Maria  wrote:

> I remember him.
> People seem to have two modes - denial and hysteria and not much 
> inbetween. The house price crash was completely forseeable and I cannot 
> understand why some people just denied it. Some are still denying it, 
> saying that property is going to go through the roof - maybe they are 
> trying to prevent panic selling.

Panic selling would be a good thing. Do we want this over in a couple of
years or do we want a two-decade slow-motion house price crash like
Japan's?

There must be a few people out there who'd like to see something
approaching a sound economy again some time before they retire?

FoFP

-- 
"They say there are no atheists in a foxhole. Well, there
are no libertarians in a financial crisis, either."

                                 --Harvard economist Jeffrey Frankel

M Holmes wrote:
> In uk.finance Maria  wrote:
> 
>> I remember him.
>> People seem to have two modes - denial and hysteria and not much 
>> inbetween. The house price crash was completely forseeable and I cannot 
>> understand why some people just denied it. Some are still denying it, 
>> saying that property is going to go through the roof - maybe they are 
>> trying to prevent panic selling.
> 
> Panic selling would be a good thing.

Not if you are the government and don't want people getting angry 
because they have 'lost' money or a positive feedback effect from 
flooding the market with property.

> Do we want this over in a couple of
> years or do we want a two-decade slow-motion house price crash like
> Japan's?
> 
> There must be a few people out there who'd like to see something
> approaching a sound economy again some time before they retire?
> 

I've not seen one in my life. Maybe a couple of years in the later 
1990's (but before Blair came to power)?

I'm totally fed up. 1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment, 1990's 
of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting problems.

"Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
news:48bce361$0$565$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>
> "William Black"  wrote in message 
> news:g9ho7u$oqf$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>> news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>
>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>
>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>>>> message 
>>>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>>>
>>>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>>>> this morning.
>>>>
>>>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>>
>>> Which programme was this?
>>
>> Today,  BBC Radio 4.
>
> Oh, OK. I heard some of that too. I don't remember the Tories arguing 
> Darling should have lied to help rich businessmen.

They didn't put it like that.

They said that the Chancellor's views may not be helpful to business in the 
country.

What they meant is that they wanted him to lie so rich people would stay 
rich.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:48:58 +0100, Maria  wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:20:57 +0100, "Ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
>>> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>> 
>>>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>>>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>>>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>>>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>>>> on……………..Sheer madness.
>> 
>>> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
>>> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some kind 
>>> of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's lurking 
>>> out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a little bit 
>>> of schadenfreude.
>> 
>> may i bring to your attention
>> 1)as yet there is nothing that can be reasonably described as a
>>     'crash'...
>
>Please define a 'crash', which I take to mean a sudden and 
>disproportionate fall in prices/sales. This has certainly happened.

what is 'disproportionate'?
what is 'sudden'?

would you describe the rises over several years as 'disproportionate'
     or 'sudden'?

>> 2)that if your 'forecast' a crash in every market year after year,
>>     eventually you'll be able to claim to be correct...it is the
>>     stopped clock fallacy....
>> 3)if people had gone out of the market at the point of the first
>>     posters babbling about 'crashes'...they would have missed a
>>     great deal of the rise...
>
>Houses have been getting harder to sell for nearly two years. 

not if you 'suddenly' dropped your price by 10%...instead of
    waiting and hoping...

and by the time you ran out of hope...adjusting the price down by
     10%.......instead of 20%....and waiting and hoping some more...
etc...

>The crash 
>talk didn't start until the last year.

talk...is talk...
monkeys gabble...and sheep bleat....it is in their nature

>> more to the point...
>> hindsight is a wondrous thing....the fact remains that nobody can
>>     predict the future...nobody...
>
>Well I did, and so did house price crash man.

markets go up...and then markets go down...and then they
     go up again...
i can now 'predict' that house prices will rise....

if i do it long enough i'll be correct....

the clown is rapidly devaluing the currency....declining currency
    value (rising prices) will meet declining house prices...in due
   course those lines will cross....

the herds run hither and thither...driven by fear and greed...

>> as confucius says, 'people who follow tipsters tend to lose shirts'

>Or as I say, read all the available information and make your own tips 
>and you can't go far wrong.

oh yes you can....
every gambler believes they have a foolproof system...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Black wrote:
> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
> news:48bce361$0$565$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>> news:g9ho7u$oqf$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>>> news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>>>>> message 
>>>>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>>>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>>>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>>>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>>>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>>>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>>>>> this morning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>>> Which programme was this?
>>> Today,  BBC Radio 4.
>> Oh, OK. I heard some of that too. I don't remember the Tories arguing 
>> Darling should have lied to help rich businessmen.
> 
> They didn't put it like that.
> 
> They said that the Chancellor's views may not be helpful to business in the 
> country.

It isn't. How many people will now not spend what they were going to 
spend had he kept his trap shut?

> What they meant is that they wanted him to lie so rich people would stay 
> rich.

1) I want evidence that the '60 years' thing is true so I can tell if he 
is lying
2) Not just rich people, but millions of small businesses like mine that 
have sprung up over the past 10 years due to hidden unemployment. Most 
businesses in Britain are small, and are therefore more sensitive to 
spendind changes than big businesses that can go to banks for massive 
overdrafts or sell some assets to stay liquidated.

I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother now.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:46:32 +0100, Maria  wrote:

>Ivan wrote:
>> 
>> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
>> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...

>>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>>> on……………..Sheer madness.

>> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something like 
>> 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being some 
>> kind of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but if he's 
>> lurking out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's wallowing in a 
>> little bit of schadenfreude.

>I remember him.
>People seem to have two modes - denial and hysteria and not much 
>inbetween. The house price crash was completely forseeable and I cannot 
>understand why some people just denied it. Some are still denying it, 
>saying that property is going to go through the roof - maybe they are 
>trying to prevent panic selling.

and others are trying to promote 'panic' selling....
it depends which side of which fence their interests lie....

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:04:56 +0100, Maria  wrote:

>I've not seen one in my life. Maybe a couple of years in the later 
>1990's (but before Blair came to power)?
>
>I'm totally fed up. 1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment, 1990's 
>of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting problems.

you are being farmed....only when you realise that can you
    break out of the pasture...if you actually prefer that to enjoying
the 'security' of the  farmer's provisions and altruism...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:04:56 +0100, Maria  wrote:
> 
>> I've not seen one in my life. Maybe a couple of years in the later 
>> 1990's (but before Blair came to power)?
>>
>> I'm totally fed up. 1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment, 1990's 
>> of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting problems.
> 
> you are being farmed....only when you realise that can you
>     break out of the pasture...

I wish I knew how.

>if you actually prefer that to enjoying
> the 'security' of the  farmer's provisions and altruism...
> 
> regards
>

In uk.finance Maria  wrote:
> M Holmes wrote:

>> Panic selling would be a good thing.

> Not if you are the government and don't want people getting angry 
> because they have 'lost' money or a positive feedback effect from 
> flooding the market with property.

Maybe for once they really are spinning it wrongly. They should just get
up and say "We said we'd help first time buyers and there is no better
help than cheaper properties and a banking system that makes only
prudential loans. Things are headed that way and so we'll leave well
alone."

>> Do we want this over in a couple of years or do we want a two-decade
>> slow-motion house price crash like Japan's?

>> There must be a few people out there who'd like to see something
>> approaching a sound economy again some time before they retire?

> I've not seen one in my life.  Maybe a couple of years in the later
> 1990's (but before Blair came to power)?

> I'm totally fed up.  1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment,
> 1990's of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting
> problems. 

Yeah well. I've heard the 60's were good. The cycle should take us back
there in 30 years or so...

FoFP

--
"They say there are no atheists in a foxhole.  Well, there are no
libertarians in a financial crisis, either."

                                 --Harvard economist Jeffrey Frankel

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:35:09 +0100, Maria  wrote:

>William Black wrote:
>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>> news:48bce361$0$565$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>> news:g9ho7u$oqf$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>>>>>> message 
>>>>>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>>>>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>>>>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>>>>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>>>>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>>>>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>>>>>> this morning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>>>> Which programme was this?
>>>> Today,  BBC Radio 4.
>>> Oh, OK. I heard some of that too. I don't remember the Tories arguing 
>>> Darling should have lied to help rich businessmen.
>> 
>> They didn't put it like that.
>> 
>> They said that the Chancellor's views may not be helpful to business in the 
>> country.
>
>It isn't. How many people will now not spend what they were going to 
>spend had he kept his trap shut?

so what?

>> What they meant is that they wanted him to lie so rich people would stay 
>> rich.
>
>1) I want evidence that the '60 years' thing is true so I can tell if he 
>is lying

you won't be able to tell until the direction of markets change again.
ie, you'll be able to tell in hindsight...as always....

>2) Not just rich people, but millions of small businesses like mine that 
>have sprung up over the past 10 years due to hidden unemployment. Most 
>businesses in Britain are small, and are therefore more sensitive to 
>spendind changes than big businesses that can go to banks for massive 
>overdrafts or sell some assets to stay liquidated.
>
>I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother now.

it is vital to build and keep reserves...
the very thing the clown has failed to do....

increasingly it looks like a real fall in the standard of living....in
     the uk
how do you measure your standard of living?
cheaper bling?
more expensive food?
cheaper houses?
more free time?

fixed pensions are falling rapidly...exactly as has been planned
    because socialist government 'promises' are unsustainable....

what does luvvy darling mean?
it's mostly bullshit and waffle....

keep your head while all around are losing their's

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Maria"  wrote in message 
news:KpCdnWiZftV_uSDVnZ2dnUVZ8qPinZ2d@bt.com...

> I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother 
> now.
>

It's certainly no time to go into retailing,  the rows of empty shops in 
every town in the UK should have told you that.

I thought you were off to Bulgaria,  what ever happened to that idea?

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

M Holmes wrote:
> In uk.finance Maria  wrote:
>> M Holmes wrote:
> 
>>> Panic selling would be a good thing.
> 
>> Not if you are the government and don't want people getting angry 
>> because they have 'lost' money or a positive feedback effect from 
>> flooding the market with property.
> 
> Maybe for once they really are spinning it wrongly. They should just get
> up and say "We said we'd help first time buyers and there is no better
> help than cheaper properties and a banking system that makes only
> prudential loans. Things are headed that way and so we'll leave well
> alone."

They should, but I guess they don't want an army of the repossessed 
voting Tory...

> 
>>> Do we want this over in a couple of years or do we want a two-decade
>>> slow-motion house price crash like Japan's?
> 
>>> There must be a few people out there who'd like to see something
>>> approaching a sound economy again some time before they retire?
> 
>> I've not seen one in my life.  Maybe a couple of years in the later
>> 1990's (but before Blair came to power)?
> 
>> I'm totally fed up.  1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment,
>> 1990's of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting
>> problems. 
> 
> Yeah well. I've heard the 60's were good. The cycle should take us back
> there in 30 years or so...
> 

I'll be dead by then. Maybe there is some hope for my kids.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:40:16 +0100, Maria  wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:04:56 +0100, Maria  wrote:
>> 
>>> I've not seen one in my life. Maybe a couple of years in the later 
>>> 1990's (but before Blair came to power)?
>>>
>>> I'm totally fed up. 1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment, 1990's 
>>> of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting problems.
>> 
>> you are being farmed....only when you realise that can you
>>     break out of the pasture...
>
>I wish I knew how.

there are many ways....lower your outgoings and increase your income
sell your children! or send them out to pick the crops....
eat scraps....

you survived the last downturn....
what is happening to bulgaria?

regards...

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:35:09 +0100, Maria  wrote:
> 
>> William Black wrote:
>>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>>> news:48bce361$0$565$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:g9ho7u$oqf$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>>>>>>> message 
>>>>>>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>>>>>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>>>>>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>>>>>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>>>>>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>>>>>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>>>>>>> this morning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>>>>> Which programme was this?
>>>>> Today,  BBC Radio 4.
>>>> Oh, OK. I heard some of that too. I don't remember the Tories arguing 
>>>> Darling should have lied to help rich businessmen.
>>> They didn't put it like that.
>>>
>>> They said that the Chancellor's views may not be helpful to business in the 
>>> country.
>> It isn't. How many people will now not spend what they were going to 
>> spend had he kept his trap shut?
> 
> so what?

Because sadly, the wellbeing of our economy depends on people spending.
Europe seems better placed in that regard, even if their growth was a 
lot slower than ours in the past. They just don't spend at the rate of 
knots that we do, and so they will not suffer the same damage that we will.

> 
>>> What they meant is that they wanted him to lie so rich people would stay 
>>> rich.
>> 1) I want evidence that the '60 years' thing is true so I can tell if he 
>> is lying
> 
> you won't be able to tell until the direction of markets change again.
> ie, you'll be able to tell in hindsight...as always....

He is stating it as fact as far as I can tell.

> 
>> 2) Not just rich people, but millions of small businesses like mine that 
>> have sprung up over the past 10 years due to hidden unemployment. Most 
>> businesses in Britain are small, and are therefore more sensitive to 
>> spendind changes than big businesses that can go to banks for massive 
>> overdrafts or sell some assets to stay liquidated.
>>
>> I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother now.
> 
> it is vital to build and keep reserves...
> the very thing the clown has failed to do....
> 
> increasingly it looks like a real fall in the standard of living....in
>      the uk
> how do you measure your standard of living?
> cheaper bling?
> more expensive food?
> cheaper houses?
> more free time?

As a frugal person, how I measure mine is, can I pay my subsistence 
bills? The answer to that is now no. I am having my gas disconnected and 
buying thick quilts.
I never thought it would come to that (again).

> fixed pensions are falling rapidly...exactly as has been planned
>     because socialist government 'promises' are unsustainable....

Means nothing to me - I have never been able to have a pension.

> 
> what does luvvy darling mean?
> it's mostly bullshit and waffle....
> 
> keep your head while all around are losing their's

I've kept my head - it just feels as if it is full of lead.

William Black wrote:
> "Maria"  wrote in message 
> news:KpCdnWiZftV_uSDVnZ2dnUVZ8qPinZ2d@bt.com...
> 
>> I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother 
>> now.
>>
> 
> It's certainly no time to go into retailing,  the rows of empty shops in 
> every town in the UK should have told you that.

And yet when I rang agents last week they told me they were nearly all 
under offer in our town. I don't know what is going on.

> 
> I thought you were off to Bulgaria,  what ever happened to that idea?
> 

Erosion of the £ means I can't buy a house big enough - I don't have 
enough savings, not to buy big, or buy small and extend. It's not ruled 
out - just shelved. The idea of the shop was to expand a little and 
increase the Bulgaria fund.

abelard wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:40:16 +0100, Maria  wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:04:56 +0100, Maria  wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've not seen one in my life. Maybe a couple of years in the later 
>>>> 1990's (but before Blair came to power)?
>>>>
>>>> I'm totally fed up. 1970's of discontent, 1980's of unemployment, 1990's 
>>>> of negative equity, 2000's of fake credit and resulting problems.
>>> you are being farmed....only when you realise that can you
>>>     break out of the pasture...
>> I wish I knew how.
> 
> there are many ways....lower your outgoings 

Can't. Given that I was brought up by war people and a homeowner by the 
age of 18, I've never spent more than I needed to. I don't buy baubles.

>and increase your income

lol

> sell your children! 

That would probably work.

>or send them out to pick the crops....

What crops? Working is not allowed under the age of 16 in this country.
2 hours a day at age 14 as long as you don't start before 7am, IIRC.

> eat scraps....

Already do.

> 
> you survived the last downturn....

I have never had an upturn Abelard. I started out in poverty, and still 
am. I am used to it - just fed up that I can't break out of it.

> what is happening to bulgaria?

Please see my reply to William Black.

In uk.finance Maria  wrote:

>>> Not if you are the government and don't want people getting angry 
>>> because they have 'lost' money or a positive feedback effect from 
>>> flooding the market with property.
>> 
>> Maybe for once they really are spinning it wrongly. They should just get
>> up and say "We said we'd help first time buyers and there is no better
>> help than cheaper properties and a banking system that makes only
>> prudential loans. Things are headed that way and so we'll leave well
>> alone."

> They should, but I guess they don't want an army of the repossessed 
> voting Tory...

There we come back to the most basic issue in politics: why do parties
want ti be elected if not to do the country some good? If parties start
harming the country just to get elected, it really is time to throw in
the towel.

Unfortunately I think Labour have now crossed that rubicon. Brown's
desperation not to go down as an unelected and useless Prime Minister,
and Labour's avarice for the trappings of power, have made them a threat
to the country.

>> Yeah well. I've heard the 60's were good. The cycle should take us back
>> there in 30 years or so...

> I'll be dead by then. Maybe there is some hope for my kids.

True, but we know that by the 2060's, they'll be knee deep in debt to
buy AI futures or whatever.

FoFP

-- 
"They say there are no atheists in a foxhole. Well, there
are no libertarians in a financial crisis, either."

                                 --Harvard economist Jeffrey Frankel

"Maria"  wrote in message 
news:Uo-dnUKrtfSatyDVnZ2dnUVZ8qbinZ2d@bt.com...
> William Black wrote:
>> "Maria"  wrote in message 
>> news:KpCdnWiZftV_uSDVnZ2dnUVZ8qPinZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>>> I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother 
>>> now.
>>>
>>
>> It's certainly no time to go into retailing,  the rows of empty shops in 
>> every town in the UK should have told you that.
>
> And yet when I rang agents last week they told me they were nearly all 
> under offer in our town. I don't know what is going on.

They're trying to talk up the price.

It's like house prices.

Nothing over the stamp duty limit is selling,  so the estate agents are 
advertizing them at inflated prices in a desperate attempt to 'talk up the 
price' for when things get better.

With shops for rent the landlords are always getting silly offers from 
charity shop people,  who offer to pay next to nothing but to maintain the 
premisses.  This allows the estate agents to pretend that someone else wants 
it and try and charge a premium rent.

Turn up with a proper deal rather than 'how much is that one' and they'll 
almost certainly be prepared to do a deal,  but you've got to look as if 
you're serious...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:54:54 +0100, Maria  wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:35:09 +0100, Maria  wrote:
>> 
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:48bce361$0$565$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:g9ho7u$oqf$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>> "Dr Quite"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:48bc2130$0$568$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
>>>>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:g9gsdm$6kp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd"  wrote in 
>>>>>>>> message 
>>>>>>>> news:79c82224-2784-49e5-844a-c4d74211ec3c@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>> The UK is facing its worst economic crisis in 60 years, Chancellor
>>>>>>>>> Alistair Darling has admitted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said Mr Darling had "let the cat out
>>>>>>>>> of the bag" about the state of the economy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He said that voters were "pissed off" with Labour's handling of the
>>>>>>>>> economy, a key issue at the next election, and said it was "absolutely
>>>>>>>>> imperative" that ministers communicated their intentions better.
>>>>>>>> I listened to the Tories trying to make something of this on the radio 
>>>>>>>> this morning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Their only argument is 'He should have lied to help rich businessmen'.
>>>>>>> Which programme was this?
>>>>>> Today,  BBC Radio 4.
>>>>> Oh, OK. I heard some of that too. I don't remember the Tories arguing 
>>>>> Darling should have lied to help rich businessmen.
>>>> They didn't put it like that.
>>>>
>>>> They said that the Chancellor's views may not be helpful to business in the 
>>>> country.
>>> It isn't. How many people will now not spend what they were going to 
>>> spend had he kept his trap shut?
>> 
>> so what?
>
>Because sadly, the wellbeing of our economy depends on people spending.
>Europe seems better placed in that regard, even if their growth was a 
>lot slower than ours in the past. They just don't spend at the rate of 
>knots that we do, and so they will not suffer the same damage that we will.

there's also inflation in europe...it's just not so bad as in the uk..
but i have been warning of this for years.....

the uk(esp south) is heavily overpopulated....
it is also very badly governed....

>>>> What they meant is that they wanted him to lie so rich people would stay 
>>>> rich.
>>> 1) I want evidence that the '60 years' thing is true so I can tell if he 
>>> is lying
>> 
>> you won't be able to tell until the direction of markets change again.
>> ie, you'll be able to tell in hindsight...as always....
>
>He is stating it as fact as far as I can tell.

he's talking tripe...he knows no more than you do....
the clown and 'new' labour have gone a long way to destroying
    the uk economy....
unless you fancy living in hong kong....

>>> 2) Not just rich people, but millions of small businesses like mine that 
>>> have sprung up over the past 10 years due to hidden unemployment. Most 
>>> businesses in Britain are small, and are therefore more sensitive to 
>>> spendind changes than big businesses that can go to banks for massive 
>>> overdrafts or sell some assets to stay liquidated.
>>>
>>> I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother now.
>> 
>> it is vital to build and keep reserves...
>> the very thing the clown has failed to do....
>> 
>> increasingly it looks like a real fall in the standard of living....in
>>      the uk
>> how do you measure your standard of living?
>> cheaper bling?
>> more expensive food?
>> cheaper houses?
>> more free time?
>
>As a frugal person, how I measure mine is, can I pay my subsistence 
>bills? The answer to that is now no. I am having my gas disconnected and 
>buying thick quilts.
>I never thought it would come to that (again).

you have the experience of getting through before...

>> fixed pensions are falling rapidly...exactly as has been planned
>>     because socialist government 'promises' are unsustainable....
>
>Means nothing to me - I have never been able to have a pension.

currently the equity in your house is a pension...
your children may help.....and that is a form of pension....
you are trying to grow a business...that also is a potential pension..

meanwhile comes a time when the spawn are more independent...
    their education and yours is a form of bank account...

the market will probably turn in due course....

the clown can't afford the mess he's caused...so now he's trying to
    borrow and steal more so's he can give it to those who are most
   damaged by his foolishness....

try to concentrate very hard on the realities....
that could well include falling standards of living....

what is necessity...and what is bonus....

there's still a vast mass of the british living on the dole in one
    form or another...pensions...children...wasters....
they're not starving....

work is disappearing rapidly....society is going to have to adjust....
meanwhile energy (and food) is getting squeezed....and the socialist
     idiots have planned nothing....
just the usual tax and spend.....

they're thieves...with dreams....not managers or sound government

>> what does luvvy darling mean?
>> it's mostly bullshit and waffle....
>> 
>> keep your head while all around are losing their's
>
>I've kept my head - it just feels as if it is full of lead.

you may as well enjoy the ride....a stoical soh is better than
    fussing...

regards...

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that      []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Black wrote:
> "Maria"  wrote in message 
> news:Uo-dnUKrtfSatyDVnZ2dnUVZ8qbinZ2d@bt.com...
>> William Black wrote:
>>> "Maria"  wrote in message 
>>> news:KpCdnWiZftV_uSDVnZ2dnUVZ8qPinZ2d@bt.com...
>>>
>>>> I haven't yet signed the contract for my new shop - I might not bother 
>>>> now.
>>>>
>>> It's certainly no time to go into retailing,  the rows of empty shops in 
>>> every town in the UK should have told you that.
>> And yet when I rang agents last week they told me they were nearly all 
>> under offer in our town. I don't know what is going on.
> 
> They're trying to talk up the price.

Not really, if they are saying that I can't make an offer because it's 
already under offer!

> 
> It's like house prices.
> 
> Nothing over the stamp duty limit is selling,  so the estate agents are 
> advertizing them at inflated prices in a desperate attempt to 'talk up the 
> price' for when things get better.

Nothing under the stamp duty limit is selling here.

> 
> With shops for rent the landlords are always getting silly offers from 
> charity shop people,  who offer to pay next to nothing but to maintain the 
> premisses.  This allows the estate agents to pretend that someone else wants 
> it and try and charge a premium rent.
> 
> Turn up with a proper deal rather than 'how much is that one' and they'll 
> almost certainly be prepared to do a deal,  but you've got to look as if 
> you're serious...


It helps if you know what the passing rent actually is. 6 months ago, 
the prices were visible. Now they are not. I am just told that the 
property is already taken and cannot offer on it. Certainly there is 
lots of refurbishing activity going on.
Things have changed because as of April business rates are payable on 
empty properties.

Ivan wrote:
> 
> "®i©ardo"  wrote in message 
> news:BXYuk.65137$Ff2.12379@newsfe13.ams2...
>> Ivan wrote:
>>>
>>> "Jon°"  wrote in message 
>>> news:64e322bc-3f90-4785-9424-0006e1e6bd45@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is an old axiom which states  that “You cannot give money
>>>> away”.  It is certainly a truism as far as the British mortgagees  are
>>>> concerned. In their mad rush for business they have been  lending Up
>>>> to 125% of the value of properties that they have given mortgages
>>>> on……………..Sheer madness.
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember the guy who used to post here under the name of something 
>>> like 'House Price Crash', irc he was frequently shouted down as being 
>>> some kind of crank, I haven't seen him about for quite a while, but 
>>> if he's lurking out there somewhere I'm willing to bet that he's 
>>> wallowing in a little bit of schadenfreude.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> It's good to have a little bit schadenfreude to wallow in, oh yes.
>>
>> :-)
> 
> As I frequently do, I'm pretty sure that I must have a slightly 
> masochistic streak in me somewhere!. Let me see now, where be that 
> blackbird too, I know where he be ;)
> 
> 

Arr, 'e be in the cornfield and I be after 'e!

That's one for the morning glory, eh?

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

M Holmes  wrote in news:g9j5fh$m80$5
@scotsman.ed.ac.uk:

> GBH  wrote:
> 
>> The long term solution is obvious. Restore the situation to before the 
>> Banks became involved in mortgages. Make Building Societies 
compeditive 
>> again and restrict Bank lending for homes using the tax system.
> 
> Seems to me that the markets are doing a reasonable job of fixing
> themselves. People need to save a reasonable deposit to get a loan. The
> banks won't lend recklessly. Borrowers won't borrow stupidly. 
> 
> Really, it's all good and they should leave well alone.
> 
> FoFP
> 

Thats fine for the Banks!

It will be years before a lot of people recover from being miss-sold 
mortgages by the Banks - some will never recover what they've lost. Did 
the Banks tell lenders that they "needed a resonable deposit to get a 
loan"? Of course they didn't. The Banks were overflowing with money - or 
thought they were - and behaved like back-street moneylenders.

Only when the amount of money lent for house buying is roughly equal to 
what the economy can lend will we return to house price stability.

-- 
gbh
gbh04 is a spamtrap - all post is deleted at server

GBH  wrote:
> M Holmes  wrote in news:g9j5fh$m80$5

>> Seems to me that the markets are doing a reasonable job of fixing
>> themselves.  People need to save a reasonable deposit to get a loan. 
>> The banks won't lend recklessly.  Borrowers won't borrow stupidly. 

>> Really, it's all good and they should leave well alone. 

> Thats fine for the Banks!

Well, they're not happy at the moment, but it is *good* for the
banks to be unable to re-involve themselves in reckless lending.

> It will be years before a lot of people recover from being miss-sold
> mortgages by the Banks - some will never recover what they've lost. 

That's also true of anyone with a bad investment in the stockmarkets or
a bad punt on the geegees. The thing with investments is either to be
aware of all the implications and ready to take the risk of losing, or
to stay away from them.

> Did the Banks tell lenders that they "needed a resonable deposit to
> get a loan"? Of course they didn't.

The borrowers knew that banks make their money by making loans. It was u
to the borrowers to calculate whether the risks and rewards were in
their own interest or not.

> The Banks were overflowing with
> money - or thought they were - and behaved like back-street
> moneylenders. 

Exactly, and due to this, many people stayed well away from them.

> Only when the amount of money lent for house buying is roughly equal
> to what the economy can lend will we return to house price stability. 

I don't even hope for house price stability. I hope after this madness
is over and the fog clears, that buying a house will be like buying a
car. People will have to save for a large part of it and won't be able
to go into debt for their whole lives as an alternative. Also that
housing, like cars, will lose value unless money is put into
maintenance.

That way there'd be some sanity. If people want to risk their life
savings in the hope of speculative gains, the stockmarkets are a better
place for taking such risks. At least they funnel money to productive
use, and people don't need shares to live their lives.

FoFP

--
"They say there are no atheists in a foxhole.  Well, there are no
libertarians in a financial crisis, either."

                                 --Harvard economist Jeffrey Frankel

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:58:17 +0100, William Black wrote:

> The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers
> who aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.

The economy is a basket case for a number of reasons.

1. New Liebour used taxpayers money to buy the votes of the New Liebour 
voting scum via the benefits system. The benefits bill has skyrocketed.

2. Mass uncontrolled "Open Borders (tm)" immigration (added to point 1).

3. What little production the UK had has gone to China and India.. seen a 
UK made Dyson recently?

4. Gordon Brown sold the TAXPAYERS assets that are kept for "a rainy 
day" (gold in particular) to buy votes. Now the rainy day is here, 
there's nothing to sell to keep the country ticking over.

5. Gordon Brown stole (£105bn+ so far) from the private pension funds, 
but protects the public sector pension fund because they can go on strike.

6. Because of uncontrolled hiring of public sector, esp. jobsworths, 
point 5 now costs the productive economy MUCH more to upkeep.

7. New Liebour allowed our industries to be bought by foreigners, so all 
profits flow out of the UK (this is NOT the same argument as why did the 
Toris allow privitisation - something the moronic Left always try to 
blame).

8. The PFI scam, so huge is the scam that our children will be paying 
that off into their old age.

9. IT projects that are so over budget it's a scandal, but who cares the 
taxpayer is good for it. This includes MoD computers, the NHS national 
computer system (which despite £20bn STILL doesn't work), and the "Final 
Solution (tm)" ID database (now linked with the paedo friendly searchable 
Children's Database).

10. The consumer failed to learn ANYTHING from the previous recessions 
that THEY caused, going on an uncontrolled credit binge, buying crap they 
didn't need. Now they think savers should pay for their free spending 
credit binge.

11. The Bank of England DELIBERATELY keeping interest rates low to please 
Gordon Brown and push the fake boom in house prices.

12. New Liebour bought a failed bank to buy votes, £110bn down the drain, 
and even recently gave the bank another £1bn.

Sorry, but bankers causing the current mess just does not figure nowhere 
in any argument. What I put above feature FAR more in why the UK is a 
basket case.

"GBH"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9B0E586DCDCB5gbh04tiscalicouk@212.74.114.194...
>M Holmes  wrote in news:g9j5fh$m80$5
> @scotsman.ed.ac.uk:
>
>> GBH  wrote:
>>
>>> The long term solution is obvious. Restore the situation to before the
>>> Banks became involved in mortgages. Make Building Societies
> compeditive
>>> again and restrict Bank lending for homes using the tax system.
>>
>> Seems to me that the markets are doing a reasonable job of fixing
>> themselves. People need to save a reasonable deposit to get a loan. The
>> banks won't lend recklessly. Borrowers won't borrow stupidly.
>>
>> Really, it's all good and they should leave well alone.
>>
>> FoFP
>>
>
> Thats fine for the Banks!
>
> It will be years before a lot of people recover from being miss-sold
> mortgages by the Banks - some will never recover what they've lost. Did
> the Banks tell lenders that they "needed a resonable deposit to get a
> loan"? Of course they didn't. The Banks were overflowing with money - or
> thought they were - and behaved like back-street moneylenders.
>
> Only when the amount of money lent for house buying is roughly equal to
> what the economy can lend will we return to house price stability.

I agree.

I have been saying for a long time that houses were overpriced because of 
"fundamental" factors.

And even I thought that those fundament factors were based upon ROI.

But now that we are here, it is clear that a more compelling fundamental is 
that there simply isn't enough "available" money in the system to support 
the current price level.  Trying to print it will just end in disaster.

tim



>
> -- 
> gbh
> gbh04 is a spamtrap - all post is deleted at server

"Ar"  wrote in message 
news:48bec44f$0$26076$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:58:17 +0100, William Black wrote:
>
>> The fact is that the economy is a basket case because of greedy bankers
>> who aren't regulated in any meaningful manner.
>
> The economy is a basket case for a number of reasons.
>
> 1. New Liebour used taxpayers money to buy the votes of the New Liebour
> voting scum via the benefits system. The benefits bill has skyrocketed.

I'm inclined to disagree with this.  ISTM that the benefits system is not 
taking any more of the national budget than it did for much of the last 20 
years.  The benefit system has skyrocketed I agree, but not on Labour's 
watch.  Th