Hi All

We are using a IT support firm to support our computers. We have a
clear 4 hour fix service level agreement (SLA).


I've just joined the firm and noticed that they take on average over
16 hours to fix equipment. And its rare that they fix within 4 hours.
I've made various comments to them which just get ignored or "whats
the problem?" from people that are not too bright even though I spell
the problem out quite clearly & in simple words I feel.


I do know that if we went for a 8 hour fix we would get a 20%
discount
- so assume it would be 40% for a 16 hour fix. Time is obviously
central to the contract.


The contract does not state what credits would be given for none
performance. They just want the money in advance - and then don't
provide the service.


Do other have experience in this area? Is it reasonable to expect a 4
hour fix (on average)?


(also small point - but doesn't a vat invoice over £100 have to have
a
'tax point' - it just has a date - and they 'backdate' the invoice to
try to get the 'due date' before the state of the service - even
though the contract is badly worded by them and doesn't say they can
do this).

On 5 Jun, 21:07, "borobo...@googlemail.com" 
wrote:
> Hi All
>
> We are using a IT support firm to support our computers. We have a
> clear 4 hour fix service level agreement (SLA).
>
> I've just joined the firm and noticed that they take on average over
> 16 hours to fix equipment. And its rare that they fix within 4 hours.
> I've made various comments to them which just get ignored or "whats
> the problem?" from people that are not too bright even though I spell
> the problem out quite clearly & in simple words I feel.
>
> I do know that if we went for a 8 hour fix we would get a 20%
> discount
> - so assume it would be 40% for a 16 hour fix. Time is obviously
> central to the contract.
>
> The contract does not state what credits would be given for none
> performance. They just want the money in advance - and then don't
> provide the service.
>
> Do other have experience in this area? Is it reasonable to expect a 4
> hour fix (on average)?
>
If they are charging you for a 4 hour fix then they should provide it
or give you a refund.

They seem to be trying it on.

> (also small point - but doesn't a vat invoice over £100 have to have
> a
> 'tax point' - it just has a date - and they 'backdate' the invoice to
> try to get the 'due date' before the state of the service - even
> though the contract is badly worded by them and doesn't say they can
> do this).

What where the payment terms agreed? It is madness agreeing a contract
for services without including payment terms.

> What where the payment terms agreed? It is madness agreeing a contract
> for services without including payment terms.

Its says "billing: monthly in advance" of the service being provided -
so to me the June service should be dated 30 May. It doesn't contain
payment terms - but I use 30 net (effectively 30 days) - which is
better than average per their accounts. They have always stated
various payment terms over time - including 30 net in writing - but
nothing stated in the contract. The issue is minor - real issue is not
providing the service - but they want the money before NOT providing
the service - which I won't do. The fact that they have not provided a
sales invoice with a vat tax point as required - means they haven't
invoice me in effect - and so what are they chasing for payment? (I'm
happy to pay it 30 net though).

On 6 Jun, 18:23, "borobo...@googlemail.com" 
wrote:
> > What where the payment terms agreed? It is madness agreeing a contract
> > for services without including payment terms.
>
> Its says "billing: monthly in advance" of the service being provided -
> so to me the June service should be dated 30 May. It doesn't contain
> payment terms - but I use 30 net (effectively 30 days) - which is
> better than average per their accounts. They have always stated
> various payment terms over time - including 30 net in writing - but
> nothing stated in the contract. The issue is minor - real issue is not
> providing the service - but they want the money before NOT providing
> the service - which I won't do. The fact that they have not provided a
> sales invoice with a vat tax point as required - means they haven't
> invoice me in effect - and so what are they chasing for payment? (I'm
> happy to pay it 30 net though).

The date on the invoice is the tax point.

>
> The date on the invoice is the tax point.

Yes - generally I would agree with you - but in this particular case
they are raising an invoice before the contract allows them to in
order to get payment earlier and that is the only reason for the date
they are using.

Only if its the same date as the date of supply - if they 'backdate'
the invoice to get payment earlier it should be a 'pro-forma' invoice.

"Not creating a tax point before it is necessary to do so.

If you need to issue a sales document for goods or services you
haven't supplied yet, you can issue a 'pro forma' invoice or a similar
request for payment to offer goods or services to customers.

If you use pro forma invoices you should clearly mark them with the
words 'This is not a VAT invoice'.

If your would-be customer accepts the goods or services you're
offering them and if you actually supply them a tax point arises and
you'll need to issue a VAT invoice the sooner of 14 days after
delivery or when payment is received.

You mustn't try to use pro forma invoices to avoid paying VAT."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/reclaim-vat-returns.htm

On 7 Jun, 10:00, "borobo...@googlemail.com" 
wrote:
> > The date on the invoice is the tax point.
>
> Yes - generally I would agree with you - but in this particular case
> they are raising an invoice before the contract allows them to in
> order to get payment earlier and that is the only reason for the date
> they are using.
>
> Only if its the same date as the date of supply - if they 'backdate'
> the invoice to get payment earlier it should be a 'pro-forma' invoice.
>
> "Not creating a tax point before it is necessary to do so.
>
> If you need to issue a sales document for goods or services you
> haven't supplied yet, you can issue a 'pro forma' invoice or a similar
> request for payment to offer goods or services to customers.
>
> If you use pro forma invoices you should clearly mark them with the
> words 'This is not a VAT invoice'.
>
> If your would-be customer accepts the goods or services you're
> offering them and if you actually supply them a tax point arises and
> you'll need to issue a VAT invoice the sooner of 14 days after
> delivery or when payment is received.
>
> You mustn't try to use pro forma invoices to avoid paying VAT."
>
> http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/reclaim-vat-returns.htm

"14.3 Continuous supplies of goods and services
If you supply services on a continuous basis and receive payments
regularly or from time to time, there is a tax point every time you:

issue a VAT invoice; or
receive a payment, whichever happens first.
If payments are due to be made at regular intervals (for example, by
banker’s order or direct debit), you can issue a VAT invoice at the
start of any period of up to one year (provided that more than one
payment is due in the period) to cover all the payments due in that
period.

For each payment you should set out the:

VAT-exclusive amount;
date on which the payment is due;
rate of VAT; and
VAT payable."

This would seem to say that you can complain about the invoice because
they should date the invoice the first day of the period.

On 8 Jun, 08:11, PeterSaxton  wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 10:00, "borobo...@googlemail.com" 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > The date on the invoice is the tax point.
>
> > Yes - generally I would agree with you - but in this particular case
> > they are raising an invoice before the contract allows them to in
> > order to get payment earlier and that is the only reason for the date
> > they are using.
>
> > Only if its the same date as the date of supply - if they 'backdate'
> > the invoice to get payment earlier it should be a 'pro-forma' invoice.
>
> > "Not creating a tax point before it is necessary to do so.
>
> > If you need to issue a sales document for goods or services you
> > haven't supplied yet, you can issue a 'pro forma' invoice or a similar
> > request for payment to offer goods or services to customers.
>
> > If you use pro forma invoices you should clearly mark them with the
> > words 'This is not a VAT invoice'.
>
> > If your would-be customer accepts the goods or services you're
> > offering them and if you actually supply them a tax point arises and
> > you'll need to issue a VAT invoice the sooner of 14 days after
> > delivery or when payment is received.
>
> > You mustn't try to use pro forma invoices to avoid paying VAT."
>
> >http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/reclaim-vat-returns.htm
>
> "14.3 Continuous supplies of goods and services
> If you supply services on a continuous basis and receive payments
> regularly or from time to time, there is a tax point every time you:
>
> issue a VAT invoice; or
> receive a payment, whichever happens first.
> If payments are due to be made at regular intervals (for example, by
> banker’s order or direct debit), you can issue a VAT invoice at the
> start of any period of up to one year (provided that more than one
> payment is due in the period) to cover all the payments due in that
> period.
>
> For each payment you should set out the:
>
> VAT-exclusive amount;
> date on which the payment is due;
> rate of VAT; and
> VAT payable."
>
> This would seem to say that you can complain about the invoice because
> they should date the invoice the first day of the period.

I can see where the above doesn't apply to the HMRC case - the regular
payments - but I think the principle is the same.