My one man band Co has been hit with a fine for failing to make it's 
employer annual return on time, currently £800 and rising, long story..

As said company has not traded for a few years, and no wages have been 
drawn, is the company still liable as there is no tax to pay ?


Tia,

Steve.

On 27 Apr, 11:48, SteveN  wrote:
> My one man band Co has been hit with a fine for failing to make it's
> employer annual return on time, currently £800 and rising, long story..
>
> As said company has not traded for a few years, and no wages have been
> drawn, is the company still liable as there is no tax to pay ?
>
> Tia,
>
> Steve.

It doesn't make any difference if there was no tax to pay.

Were you asked to submit a P35?

Had you told HMRC that you had no employees?

<snip good advice>

Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder is 
an employee, and a company's director is an office-holder. 
So if your company has even one director then HMRC can 
argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE 
purposes.


-- 
Robin

On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
> <snip good advice>
>
> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder is
> an employee, and a company's director is an office-holder.
> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
> purposes.
>
> --
> Robin

If there are no payments or benefits then there is no PAYE.

"PeterSaxton"  wrote in message 
news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
>> <snip good advice>
>>
>> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder 
>> is
>> an employee, and a company's director is an 
>> office-holder.
>> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
>> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
>> purposes.
>>
>> --
>> Robin
>
> If there are no payments or benefits then there is no 
> PAYE.

Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account 
for if there are no payments.

But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35 
from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or 
"if you have made payments".  So there used to be an 
expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make 
them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And 
there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See eg 
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm

That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect 
there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil 
return involved.

-- 
Robin

On 28 Apr, 23:23, "neverwas"  wrote:
> "PeterSaxton"  wrote in message
>
> news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
> >> <snip good advice>
>
> >> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder
> >> is
> >> an employee, and a company's director is an
> >> office-holder.
> >> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
> >> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
> >> purposes.
>
> >> --
> >> Robin
>
> > If there are no payments or benefits then there is no
> > PAYE.
>
> Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account
> for if there are no payments.
>
> But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35
> from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or
> "if you have made payments".  So there used to be an
> expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make
> them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And
> there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See eghttp://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm
>
> That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect
> there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil
> return involved.
>
> --
> Robin

If you tell HMRC that the company has stopped employing anyone and
HMRC doesn't send a P35 then you shouldn't have to submit one. I have
an ex-client who died and he was the sole employee of the company
which has been wound up. Despite telling HMRC on phone and in writing
several times a few years later HMRC are still sending P35s.

PeterSaxton  wrote in
news:629a2ec5-08ee-4386-8abb-31b3b054bd1e@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: 

> On 28 Apr, 23:23, "neverwas"  wrote:
>> "PeterSaxton"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com
>> ... 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
>> >> <snip good advice>
>>
>> >> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder
>> >> is
>> >> an employee, and a company's director is an
>> >> office-holder.
>> >> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
>> >> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
>> >> purposes.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Robin
>>
>> > If there are no payments or benefits then there is no
>> > PAYE.
>>
>> Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account
>> for if there are no payments.
>>
>> But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35
>> from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or
>> "if you have made payments".  So there used to be an
>> expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make
>> them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And
>> there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See
>> eghttp://www.hmrc 
> .gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm
>>
>> That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect
>> there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil
>> return involved.
>>
>> --
>> Robin
> 
> If you tell HMRC that the company has stopped employing anyone and
> HMRC doesn't send a P35 then you shouldn't have to submit one. I have
> an ex-client who died and he was the sole employee of the company
> which has been wound up. Despite telling HMRC on phone and in writing
> several times a few years later HMRC are still sending P35s.
> 

Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.

The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest, I 
just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in return.

I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that no-
one draws a salary.

I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the 
fine.

My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me close on 
£1000 ?

Tia,

Steve..

In article , SteveN 
 writes
>PeterSaxton  wrote in
>news:629a2ec5-08ee-4386-8abb-31b3b054bd1e@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On 28 Apr, 23:23, "neverwas"  wrote:
>>> "PeterSaxton"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
>>> >> <snip good advice>
>>>
>>> >> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder
>>> >> is
>>> >> an employee, and a company's director is an
>>> >> office-holder.
>>> >> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
>>> >> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
>>> >> purposes.
>>>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Robin
>>>
>>> > If there are no payments or benefits then there is no
>>> > PAYE.
>>>
>>> Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account
>>> for if there are no payments.
>>>
>>> But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35
>>> from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or
>>> "if you have made payments".  So there used to be an
>>> expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make
>>> them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And
>>> there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See
>>> eghttp://www.hmrc
>> .gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm
>>>
>>> That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect
>>> there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil
>>> return involved.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robin
>>
>> If you tell HMRC that the company has stopped employing anyone and
>> HMRC doesn't send a P35 then you shouldn't have to submit one. I have
>> an ex-client who died and he was the sole employee of the company
>> which has been wound up. Despite telling HMRC on phone and in writing
>> several times a few years later HMRC are still sending P35s.
>>
>
>Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.
>
>The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest, I
>just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in return.
>
>I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that no-
>one draws a salary.
>
>I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the
>fine.
>
>My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me close on
>£1000 ?
>
>Tia,
>
>Steve..


Try appealing formally on the grounds that no payroll was operated 
during the year in question and as such no P35 was due.  You could also 
refer to the fact that HMRC were told previously, and enclose copies of 
the correspondence.

FWIW I have succeeded with this approach a number of times.

Give it a try, and if successful you can buy me a nice cold beer.

Good luck!
-- 
Jon Griffey FCCA CTA
Hackett Griffey
Chartered Certified Accountants & Registered Auditors
2 Mill Road, Haverhill, Suffolk, CB9 8BD

Tel (01440) 762024

www.hackettgriffey.com

See www.hackettgriffey.com/pages/legal.html for disclaimers

"SteveN"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9A9199DB3D226stevehomecouk@80.5.182.99...

< snip >

>
> Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.
>
> The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest, I
> just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in return.
>
> I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that no-
> one draws a salary.
>
> I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the
> fine.
>
> My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me close on
> £1000 ?
>
> Tia,
>
> Steve..

You are only req'd to submit a P35 if you have also been req'd to complete 
at least one P11 in the year.  Assuming you had no employees in 06-07, hence 
no P11, you do not need to submit a P35.

HMRC advice is to notify them if a P35 is requested but no P35 is being 
submitted.  This you have done, hence no penalty is due.

If you did have to submit a P35, but did so late (or not at all) the 
penalties are not reduced just because there is no (or little) tax unpaid 
(or paid late).  This is in contrast to SATR, where the penalty is min of 
unpaid tax (or tax paid late) and £100.

So I would write and tell them you have had no employees since the last time 
you told them ... and that they should withdraw the penalty notice.

Incidentally, AIUI the penalty is £100 a month - so your initial comment 
about "£800 and rising" is probably now "£1100 and rising"... :-))

HTH

-- 
Martin

On 1 May, 15:05, SteveN  wrote:
> PeterSaxton  wrote innews:629a2ec5-08ee-4386-8abb-31b3b054bd1e@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 28 Apr, 23:23, "neverwas"  wrote:
> >> "PeterSaxton"  wrote in message
>
> >>news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com
> >> ...
>
> >> > On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
> >> >> <snip good advice>
>
> >> >> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder
> >> >> is
> >> >> an employee, and a company's director is an
> >> >> office-holder.
> >> >> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
> >> >> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
> >> >> purposes.
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Robin
>
> >> > If there are no payments or benefits then there is no
> >> > PAYE.
>
> >> Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account
> >> for if there are no payments.
>
> >> But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35
> >> from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or
> >> "if you have made payments".  So there used to be an
> >> expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make
> >> them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And
> >> there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See
> >> eghttp://www.hmrc
> > .gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm
>
> >> That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect
> >> there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil
> >> return involved.
>
> >> --
> >> Robin
>
> > If you tell HMRC that the company has stopped employing anyone and
> > HMRC doesn't send a P35 then you shouldn't have to submit one. I have
> > an ex-client who died and he was the sole employee of the company
> > which has been wound up. Despite telling HMRC on phone and in writing
> > several times a few years later HMRC are still sending P35s.
>
> Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.
>
You should be. I said "It doesn't make any difference if there was no
tax to pay. "

> The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest, I
> just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in return.

Inform HMRC that the company is dormant. You will only get bothered
about once every five years then.
>
> I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that no-
> one draws a salary.
>
> I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the
> fine.
>
> My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me close on
> £1000 ?
>
As I said early, it doesn't matter whether there is any tax to pay -
you can still get fined. Similarly with corporation tax. This is
another reason why it is best to ak HMRC to stop insisting on a tax
return.

You've told them you don't have any employees so you shouldn't have to
complete a P35 therefore no penalty is valid.

Jon Griffey  wrote in 
news:A3awgpG63dGIFApO@griffey.demon.co.uk:

> In article , SteveN 
>  writes
>>PeterSaxton  wrote in
>>news:629a2ec5-08ee-4386-8abb-31b3b054bd1e@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On 28 Apr, 23:23, "neverwas"  wrote:
>>>> "PeterSaxton"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
>>>> >> <snip good advice>
>>>>
>>>> >> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> an employee, and a company's director is an
>>>> >> office-holder.
>>>> >> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
>>>> >> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
>>>> >> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Robin
>>>>
>>>> > If there are no payments or benefits then there is no
>>>> > PAYE.
>>>>
>>>> Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account
>>>> for if there are no payments.
>>>>
>>>> But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35
>>>> from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or
>>>> "if you have made payments".  So there used to be an
>>>> expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make
>>>> them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And
>>>> there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See
>>>> eghttp://www.hmrc
>>> .gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm
>>>>
>>>> That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect
>>>> there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil
>>>> return involved.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robin
>>>
>>> If you tell HMRC that the company has stopped employing anyone and
>>> HMRC doesn't send a P35 then you shouldn't have to submit one. I have
>>> an ex-client who died and he was the sole employee of the company
>>> which has been wound up. Despite telling HMRC on phone and in writing
>>> several times a few years later HMRC are still sending P35s.
>>>
>>
>>Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.
>>
>>The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest, I
>>just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in return.
>>
>>I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that no-
>>one draws a salary.
>>
>>I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the
>>fine.
>>
>>My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me close on
>>£1000 ?
>>
>>Tia,
>>
>>Steve..
> 
> 
> Try appealing formally on the grounds that no payroll was operated 
> during the year in question and as such no P35 was due.  You could also 
> refer to the fact that HMRC were told previously, and enclose copies of 
> the correspondence.
> 
> FWIW I have succeeded with this approach a number of times.
> 
> Give it a try, and if successful you can buy me a nice cold beer.
> 
> Good luck!

Thanks, appeal sent off per your guidance..

Happily stand you a beer if it come off :)

"Martin"  wrote in
news:YmlSj.47128$B83.5084@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net: 

> 
> "SteveN"  wrote in message 
> news:Xns9A9199DB3D226stevehomecouk@80.5.182.99...
> 
> < snip >
> 
>>
>> Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.
>>
>> The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest,
>> I just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in
>> return. 
>>
>> I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that
>> no- one draws a salary.
>>
>> I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the
>> fine.
>>
>> My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me
>> close on £1000 ?
>>
>> Tia,
>>
>> Steve..
> 

> 
> If you did have to submit a P35, but did so late (or not at all) the 
> penalties are not reduced just because there is no (or little) tax
> unpaid (or paid late).  This is in contrast to SATR, where the penalty
> is min of unpaid tax (or tax paid late) and £100.

And there endeth the lesson :((

> 
> So I would write and tell them you have had no employees since the
> last time you told them ... and that they should withdraw the penalty
> notice. 

Cheers, job done

> 
> Incidentally, AIUI the penalty is £100 a month - so your initial
> comment about "£800 and rising" is probably now "£1100 and rising"...
> :-)) 
> 
> HTH
> 

Don't I know it..

PeterSaxton  wrote in
news:88360322-1373-4043-80fd-b02e3c4e3092@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com: 

> On 1 May, 15:05, SteveN  wrote:
>> PeterSaxton  wrote
>> innews:629a2ec5-08ee-4386-8abb 
> -31b3b054bd1e@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 28 Apr, 23:23, "neverwas"  wrote:
>> >> "PeterSaxton"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1f8406cf-7c17-4d6e-aba2-14a7aa8a66b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.c
>> >>om 
>> >> ...
>>
>> >> > On 28 Apr, 08:53, "neverwas"  wrote:
>> >> >> <snip good advice>
>>
>> >> >> Bear in mind also that for PAYE purposes an office-holder
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> an employee, and a company's director is an
>> >> >> office-holder.
>> >> >> So if your company has even one director then HMRC can
>> >> >> argue, I think correctly, it has an employee for PAYE
>> >> >> purposes.
>>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Robin
>>
>> >> > If there are no payments or benefits then there is no
>> >> > PAYE.
>>
>> >> Yes in the sense that there is no PAYE to deduct and account
>> >> for if there are no payments.
>>
>> >> But regulation 73 (unless it's been amended) requires a P35
>> >> from an employer.  It doesn't say "if there is any PAYE" or
>> >> "if you have made payments".  So there used to be an
>> >> expectation of "nil returns" and many employers used to make
>> >> them in practice (typically for dormant companies).  And
>> >> there are HMRC instructions for how to process them. See
>> >> eghttp://www.hmrc
>> > .gov.uk/manuals/pommanual/paye43031.htm
>>
>> >> That said, the OP said it is a long story and I suspect
>> >> there is more than just a simple failure to make one nil
>> >> return involved.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Robin
>>
>> > If you tell HMRC that the company has stopped employing anyone and
>> > HMRC doesn't send a P35 then you shouldn't have to submit one. I
>> > have an ex-client who died and he was the sole employee of the
>> > company which has been wound up. Despite telling HMRC on phone and
>> > in writing several times a few years later HMRC are still sending
>> > P35s. 
>>
>> Thanks for your input folks, but I'm still non the wiser.
>>
> You should be. I said "It doesn't make any difference if there was no
> tax to pay. "

Sorry, missed that bit :(

> 
>> The Co has not traded for a few years, I should have laid it to rest,
>> I just submit my annual accounts and get a "nothing to pay" in
>> return. 
> 
> Inform HMRC that the company is dormant. You will only get bothered
> about once every five years then.



>>
>> I do get sent P35 even though I have previously informed the IR that
>> no- one draws a salary.
>>
>> I missed the deadline for filling in a P35 for years 06-07, hence the
>> fine.
>>
>> My question is if there's no tax to pay can the IR still fine me
>> close on £1000 ?
>>
> As I said early, it doesn't matter whether there is any tax to pay -
> you can still get fined. Similarly with corporation tax. This is
> another reason why it is best to ak HMRC to stop insisting on a tax
> return.
> 
> You've told them you don't have any employees so you shouldn't have to
> complete a P35 therefore no penalty is valid.

Hope so but not holding my breath..