(This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are 
welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come 
to expect ;-)

So I want to put Nitrous on My Mondeo. I've read Burgermans site 
(www.nitrous.info) a few times and I think I've absorbed some of it.

What I'm after is: what I've got now (reliable, smooth, cheap to run, not 
too thirsty 2.0 Mk.1 Mondeo) *but* with occasional extra oomph for those 
times when I really miss the 200bhp I had in my Carlton and Supra. Maybe 
another 50bhp.

I've looked at remapping, turbo conversions, wild cams etc. and they all 
work out £££'s more than I want to spend, and/or have non-positive 
effects on day-to-day driveability and thirst.

A 'small' 50bhp shot of Nitrous would seem to fit the bill, ~£150 to fit, 
not too bad to insure (£60 extra), and when it's not in use it just isn't 
there. *Should* be OK for the engine, too - nominally going from 136-
>186bhp on an 80000 mile engine.

So, questions...

- On the site it mentions knocking the timing back 3-4 degrees and 
fitting plugs a step or two colder. How vital is this? Wouldn't it affect 
the normal running?

- Burgerman, you modify CO2 solenoids to handle the higher pressures. Do 
you find that the new inserts wear much? Would I have to remember to 
strip it down every few cylinderfuls to check?

- Where's the best sort of place to get the hoses and fittings - braided 
and nylon. Pneumatics suppliers? Hydraulics? Modding shops? (no).

- I don't like the sound of what can happen if your nitrous solenoid 
leaks and you start it up with a very lean mix.. but I don't much fancy 
having to unscrew a valve every time I set out either, I just want it 
there when I want it. Is there an automatic valve that would be more 
reliable than the solenoid(s)(a motorised gate valve maybe?) which could 
be opened with the ignition?

- It doesn't look like I'd need a way to purge the lines with your setup, 
is that right?

<Thinks>. Right, I think that's all for now, but I'm sure I'll need more 
help as I go along. I'm just getting the bits together for now, 
especially trying to find a 5lb CO2 cylinder. Anybody round Gloucester 
way with a CO2 fire extinguisher they don't want, that's still in test?


Cheers

"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:mw1ok.41145$E41.5376@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> (This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are
> welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come
> to expect ;-)
>

Good luck dude :-)  Can't help with any of it, but I wish you well!

Although, make sure you don't blow the welds on the intake, or cause the 
passenger floor to drop out.

-- 
Dan B
Clio R27

"DanB"  wrote in message 
news:6gcbhmFf6o0pU1@mid.individual.net...
> "PCPaul"  wrote in message 
> news:mw1ok.41145$E41.5376@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> (This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are
>> welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come
>> to expect ;-)
>>
>
> Good luck dude :-)  Can't help with any of it, but I wish you well!
>
> Although, make sure you don't blow the welds on the intake, or cause the 
> passenger floor to drop out.
>


Or race it on the longest, flatest, strightest road in the world.

-- 
ThePunisher

"ThePunisher"  wrote in message 
news:O5nok.182239$Lw1.44919@newsfe29.ams2...
> "DanB"  wrote in message 
> news:6gcbhmFf6o0pU1@mid.individual.net...
>> "PCPaul"  wrote in message 
>> news:mw1ok.41145$E41.5376@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>> (This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are
>>> welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come
>>> to expect ;-)
>>>
>>
>> Good luck dude :-)  Can't help with any of it, but I wish you well!
>>
>> Although, make sure you don't blow the welds on the intake, or cause the 
>> passenger floor to drop out.
>>
>
>
> Or race it on the longest, flatest, strightest road in the world.

You will also need 27 gears and to never be in the right one.

"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:mw1ok.41145$E41.5376@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> (This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are
> welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come
> to expect ;-)
>
> So I want to put Nitrous on My Mondeo. I've read Burgermans site
> (www.nitrous.info) a few times and I think I've absorbed some of it.
>
> What I'm after is: what I've got now (reliable, smooth, cheap to run, not
> too thirsty 2.0 Mk.1 Mondeo) *but* with occasional extra oomph for those
> times when I really miss the 200bhp I had in my Carlton and Supra. Maybe
> another 50bhp.
>
> I've looked at remapping, turbo conversions, wild cams etc. and they all
> work out £££'s more than I want to spend, and/or have non-positive
> effects on day-to-day driveability and thirst.
>
> A 'small' 50bhp shot of Nitrous would seem to fit the bill, ~£150 to fit,
> not too bad to insure (£60 extra), and when it's not in use it just isn't
> there. *Should* be OK for the engine, too - nominally going from 136-
>>186bhp on an 80000 mile engine.
>
> So, questions...
>
> - On the site it mentions knocking the timing back 3-4 degrees and
> fitting plugs a step or two colder. How vital is this? Wouldn't it affect
> the normal running?
>
> - Burgerman, you modify CO2 solenoids to handle the higher pressures. Do
> you find that the new inserts wear much? Would I have to remember to
> strip it down every few cylinderfuls to check?
>
> - Where's the best sort of place to get the hoses and fittings - braided
> and nylon. Pneumatics suppliers? Hydraulics? Modding shops? (no).
>
> - I don't like the sound of what can happen if your nitrous solenoid
> leaks and you start it up with a very lean mix.. but I don't much fancy
> having to unscrew a valve every time I set out either, I just want it
> there when I want it. Is there an automatic valve that would be more
> reliable than the solenoid(s)(a motorised gate valve maybe?) which could
> be opened with the ignition?
>
> - It doesn't look like I'd need a way to purge the lines with your setup,
> is that right?
>
> <Thinks>. Right, I think that's all for now, but I'm sure I'll need more
> help as I go along. I'm just getting the bits together for now,
> especially trying to find a 5lb CO2 cylinder. Anybody round Gloucester
> way with a CO2 fire extinguisher they don't want, that's still in test?
>
>
> Cheers


Would it not be easier just to sell it and get an ST24 or ST200? They seem 
to go cheap enough nowadays :-)

"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:mw1ok.41145$E41.5376@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> (This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are
> welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come
> to expect ;-)
>
> So I want to put Nitrous on My Mondeo. I've read Burgermans site
> (www.nitrous.info) a few times and I think I've absorbed some of it.
>
> What I'm after is: what I've got now (reliable, smooth, cheap to run, not
> too thirsty 2.0 Mk.1 Mondeo) *but* with occasional extra oomph for those
> times when I really miss the 200bhp I had in my Carlton and Supra. Maybe
> another 50bhp.


50 is very safe.


> I've looked at remapping, turbo conversions, wild cams etc. and they all
> work out £££'s more than I want to spend, and/or have non-positive
> effects on day-to-day driveability and thirst.


Yep...


> A 'small' 50bhp shot of Nitrous would seem to fit the bill, ~£150 to fit,
> not too bad to insure (£60 extra), and when it's not in use it just isn't
> there. *Should* be OK for the engine, too - nominally going from 136-
>>186bhp on an 80000 mile engine.


Wont hurt the motor if done correctly.


> So, questions...
>
> - On the site it mentions knocking the timing back 3-4 degrees and
> fitting plugs a step or two colder. How vital is this? Wouldn't it affect
> the normal running?


The timing will reduce power slightly. But ideally you need to fit another 
pickup or a "delay" box that operates only on the button...
But with 50 extra you will probably get away without the retard as long as 
you use good fuel and you do the plug "thing".
Cooler plugs cannot ever damage an engine. Hotter ones can/do. With nitrous 
the danger is detonation so colder plugs ar a precaution. They wont effect 
your normal driving unless all you do is drive it into the garage while 
cold. And back, or you 105 year old grandma drives it! Then you may get a 
sooty plug and have tgo clean it...


> - Burgerman, you modify CO2 solenoids to handle the higher pressures. Do
> you find that the new inserts wear much? Would I have to remember to
> strip it down every few cylinderfuls to check?

If it wotks for a few hours of playing it will be good for years. Again 
though this depends on your abilities when you mod the solenoid!


> - Where's the best sort of place to get the hoses and fittings - braided
> and nylon. Pneumatics suppliers? Hydraulics? Modding shops? (no).


Every industri=al estate has a pneumatics place, and a hydraulics place... 
Have a look around.

> - I don't like the sound of what can happen if your nitrous solenoid
> leaks and you start it up with a very lean mix..

Boom!
No its not good.
Part of the fun. It wont leak if you do it right!
DIY and modding cars isnt for wimps!


but I don't much fancy
> having to unscrew a valve every time I set out either, I just want it
> there when I want it.


If you buy a commertial system the same applies. Any solenoid CAN leak but 
in practice they dont.

If you really worry then fit ignition kill switch so as you crank it foir a 
few secs it all gets pumped through the engine and out the exhaust. I never 
bothered.
Is there an automatic valve that would be more
> reliable than the solenoid(s)(a motorised gate valve maybe?) which could
> be opened with the ignition?

Fit 3 in line if you are that worried!


>
> - It doesn't look like I'd need a way to purge the lines with your setup,
> is that right?

As long as you keep the supply line away from heat, and small diameter with 
low thermal mass then no. 4mm nylon for eg. If you use braided then yes and 
it causes other problems as well.


>
> <Thinks>. Right, I think that's all for now, but I'm sure I'll need more
> help as I go along. I'm just getting the bits together for now,
> especially trying to find a 5lb CO2 cylinder. Anybody round Gloucester
> way with a CO2 fire extinguisher they don't want, that's still in test?
>
>
> Cheers
>

"Me" <me@here.c0m> wrote in message 
news:Cd6dncvOcYrjZD_VnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "PCPaul"  wrote in message 
> news:mw1ok.41145$E41.5376@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> (This is mainly aimed at Burgerman, but any other useful comments are
>> welcome, derision and cackling from the sidelines is something I've come
>> to expect ;-)
>>
>> So I want to put Nitrous on My Mondeo. I've read Burgermans site
>> (www.nitrous.info) a few times and I think I've absorbed some of it.
>>
>> What I'm after is: what I've got now (reliable, smooth, cheap to run, not
>> too thirsty 2.0 Mk.1 Mondeo) *but* with occasional extra oomph for those
>> times when I really miss the 200bhp I had in my Carlton and Supra. Maybe
>> another 50bhp.
>>
>> I've looked at remapping, turbo conversions, wild cams etc. and they all
>> work out £££'s more than I want to spend, and/or have non-positive
>> effects on day-to-day driveability and thirst.
>>
>> A 'small' 50bhp shot of Nitrous would seem to fit the bill, ~£150 to fit,
>> not too bad to insure (£60 extra), and when it's not in use it just isn't
>> there. *Should* be OK for the engine, too - nominally going from 136-
>>>186bhp on an 80000 mile engine.
>>
>> So, questions...
>>
>> - On the site it mentions knocking the timing back 3-4 degrees and
>> fitting plugs a step or two colder. How vital is this? Wouldn't it affect
>> the normal running?
>>
>> - Burgerman, you modify CO2 solenoids to handle the higher pressures. Do
>> you find that the new inserts wear much? Would I have to remember to
>> strip it down every few cylinderfuls to check?
>>
>> - Where's the best sort of place to get the hoses and fittings - braided
>> and nylon. Pneumatics suppliers? Hydraulics? Modding shops? (no).
>>
>> - I don't like the sound of what can happen if your nitrous solenoid
>> leaks and you start it up with a very lean mix.. but I don't much fancy
>> having to unscrew a valve every time I set out either, I just want it
>> there when I want it. Is there an automatic valve that would be more
>> reliable than the solenoid(s)(a motorised gate valve maybe?) which could
>> be opened with the ignition?
>>
>> - It doesn't look like I'd need a way to purge the lines with your setup,
>> is that right?
>>
>> <Thinks>. Right, I think that's all for now, but I'm sure I'll need more
>> help as I go along. I'm just getting the bits together for now,
>> especially trying to find a 5lb CO2 cylinder. Anybody round Gloucester
>> way with a CO2 fire extinguisher they don't want, that's still in test?
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>
>
> Would it not be easier just to sell it and get an ST24 or ST200? They seem 
> to go cheap enough nowadays :-)
>
>

And then fit nitrous.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:09:36 +0100, Burgerman wrote:

> "Me" <me@here.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Cd6dncvOcYrjZD_VnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@giganews.com...

>>
>> Would it not be easier just to sell it and get an ST24 or ST200? They
>> seem to go cheap enough nowadays :-)
>>

Sorry? Am I in the wrong group? ;-)

I like Q-cars. Give me a car that looks like a pile of dung but that goes 
like greased weaselshit and I'm happy. Detailing? What's that?

Anyway, an ST24 or ST200 would still be £1500+ for one with sensible 
miles, and be quite a bit more thirsty for day-to-day running. Instead of 
sub-£200 with this car (assuming I don't stuff it up...)


> And then fit nitrous.

...and *You* are just the sort of man my mother warned me about.

Well done!

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:08:50 +0100, Burgerman wrote:

> "PCPaul"  wrote in message

>> So I want to put Nitrous on My Mondeo. I've read Burgermans site
>> (www.nitrous.info) a few times and I think I've absorbed some of it.
>>
>> Maybe another 50bhp.
> 
> 
> 50 is very safe.

That's the hope - I can't afford to keep lunching engines.. risking one 
is plausible, though.

>> - On the site it mentions knocking the timing back 3-4 degrees and
>> fitting plugs a step or two colder. How vital is this? Wouldn't it
>> affect the normal running?
> 
> The timing will reduce power slightly. But ideally you need to fit
> another pickup or a "delay" box that operates only on the button...

OK, I think I can knock one of those up. Presumably that would need to 
intercept the signal from the crank sensor and delay it when the go 
button is pressed - i.e. in parallel with the solenoids. What does the 
crank sensor (or whatever) put out? Is it just a hall effect switch? I 
can put a scope on it anyway, but I'm guessing you know off the top of 
your head...

> But
> with 50 extra you will probably get away without the retard as long as
> you use good fuel and you do the plug "thing". Cooler plugs cannot ever
> damage an engine. Hotter ones can/do. With nitrous the danger is
> detonation so colder plugs ar a precaution. They wont effect your normal
> driving unless all you do is drive it into the garage while cold. And
> back, or you 105 year old grandma drives it! Then you may get a sooty
> plug and have tgo clean it...

I can handle that. I'll be sure to schedule frequent Italian tuneups.. as 
if I didn't already ;-)
 
> 
>> - Burgerman, you modify CO2 solenoids to handle the higher pressures.
>> Do you find that the new inserts wear much? Would I have to remember to
>> strip it down every few cylinderfuls to check?
> 
> If it wotks for a few hours of playing it will be good for years. Again
> though this depends on your abilities when you mod the solenoid!

Hmm. We'll have to wait and see. I can solder anything large or small and 
I've got a decent drill press, so what can go wrong?

> 
>> - Where's the best sort of place to get the hoses and fittings -
>> braided and nylon. Pneumatics suppliers? Hydraulics? Modding shops?
>  
> Every industrial estate has a pneumatics place, and a hydraulics
> place... Have a look around.

Good point. There's a commercial aircon/pneumatics place down the road 
from my work, come to think of it. Dunno if they do supply only though. 

>> - I don't like the sound of what can happen if your nitrous solenoid
>> leaks and you start it up with a very lean mix..
> 
> Boom!
> No its not good.
> Part of the fun. It wont leak if you do it right! DIY and modding cars
> isnt for wimps!

I guess I'm just used to building safety into things.. must loosen up!

> Is there an automatic valve that would be more
>> reliable than the solenoid(s)(a motorised gate valve maybe?) which
>> could be opened with the ignition?
> 
> Fit 3 in line if you are that worried!

See above.

>> - It doesn't look like I'd need a way to purge the lines with your
>> setup, is that right?
> 
> As long as you keep the supply line away from heat, and small diameter
> with low thermal mass then no. 4mm nylon for eg. If you use braided then
> yes and it causes other problems as well.

I was thinking the cylinder might have to go in the boot (I often have a 
car full) so the line would have to run most of the length of the car, 
maybe inside, under the sill trim. I thought you said braided would be 
good for the long supply line, nylon for the rest? Or should I just use 
4mm OD, 2.5mm ID nylon right through?


I'll go and try and find some bits then.. cheers for the advice.

Oh, and when I've got something to show I'll get a photo diary going so 
you can all laugh at my car.

"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:ZWFok.42064$E41.34023@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:09:36 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
>
>> "Me" <me@here.c0m> wrote in message
>> news:Cd6dncvOcYrjZD_VnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
>>>
>>> Would it not be easier just to sell it and get an ST24 or ST200? They
>>> seem to go cheap enough nowadays :-)
>>>
>
> Sorry? Am I in the wrong group? ;-)
>
> I like Q-cars. Give me a car that looks like a pile of dung but that goes
> like greased weaselshit and I'm happy. Detailing? What's that?
>
> Anyway, an ST24 or ST200 would still be £1500+ for one with sensible
> miles, and be quite a bit more thirsty for day-to-day running. Instead of
> sub-£200 with this car (assuming I don't stuff it up...)
>
>
>> And then fit nitrous.
>
> ...and *You* are just the sort of man my mother warned me about.
>
> Well done!
>


I had a 1.6GL Mk 5 Cortina with a Very high compression 3.0 litre V6 from a 
Capri fitted when I was about 22. The real money went on bikes. It was 
battered and home built. It had beercans up to the level of the seats, 
sanwhich rappers and other junk mixed in with the tools all over the floor. 
It had a LOUD sterio considering there were no such things in the 80s. It 
pushed the windscreen out.  That consisted of a pair of old 2x12 bass guitar 
units filling the rear seat with pizzo horns fitted and a couple of old amps 
hanging under the dash. It had a railway line welded across both ends where 
other people had bumbers.. Nobody parked near it and I learned to drive 
everywhere flat out and mostly sidways. Got banned 5 times. Your mother was 
right.

From: "PCPaul" 
Subject: Re: Nitrous haze..
Date: 13 August 2008 20:07

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:08:50 +0100, Burgerman wrote:

> "PCPaul"  wrote in message

>> So I want to put Nitrous on My Mondeo. I've read Burgermans site
>> (www.nitrous.info) a few times and I think I've absorbed some of it.
>>
>> Maybe another 50bhp.
>
>
> 50 is very safe.

That's the hope - I can't afford to keep lunching engines.. risking one
is plausible, though.

>> - On the site it mentions knocking the timing back 3-4 degrees and
>> fitting plugs a step or two colder. How vital is this? Wouldn't it
>> affect the normal running?
>
> The timing will reduce power slightly. But ideally you need to fit
> another pickup or a "delay" box that operates only on the button...

OK, I think I can knock one of those up. Presumably that would need to
intercept the signal from the crank sensor and delay it when the go
button is pressed - i.e. in parallel with the solenoids. What does the
crank sensor (or whatever) put out? Is it just a hall effect switch? I
can put a scope on it anyway, but I'm guessing you know off the top of
your head...


Yep its a hall dual hall effect position sensor or at least it was on
earlier fords, check anyway!

If you cant be bothered to make a delay box call trev at Highpower because
he makes one (at a price)



> But
> with 50 extra you will probably get away without the retard as long as
> you use good fuel and you do the plug "thing". Cooler plugs cannot ever
> damage an engine. Hotter ones can/do. With nitrous the danger is
> detonation so colder plugs ar a precaution. They wont effect your normal
> driving unless all you do is drive it into the garage while cold. And
> back, or you 105 year old grandma drives it! Then you may get a sooty
> plug and have tgo clean it...

I can handle that. I'll be sure to schedule frequent Italian tuneups.. as
if I didn't already ;-)

>
>> - Burgerman, you modify CO2 solenoids to handle the higher pressures.
>> Do you find that the new inserts wear much? Would I have to remember to
>> strip it down every few cylinderfuls to check?
>
> If it wotks for a few hours of playing it will be good for years. Again
> though this depends on your abilities when you mod the solenoid!

Hmm. We'll have to wait and see. I can solder anything large or small and
I've got a decent drill press, so what can go wrong?


Its tiny and needs to be accurate with good surface finish. mUCH CARE!




>
>> - Where's the best sort of place to get the hoses and fittings -
>> braided and nylon. Pneumatics suppliers? Hydraulics? Modding shops?
>
> Every industrial estate has a pneumatics place, and a hydraulics
> place... Have a look around.

Good point. There's a commercial aircon/pneumatics place down the road
from my work, come to think of it. Dunno if they do supply only though.

>> - I don't like the sound of what can happen if your nitrous solenoid
>> leaks and you start it up with a very lean mix..
>
> Boom!
> No its not good.
> Part of the fun. It wont leak if you do it right! DIY and modding cars
> isnt for wimps!

I guess I'm just used to building safety into things.. must loosen up!

> Is there an automatic valve that would be more
>> reliable than the solenoid(s)(a motorised gate valve maybe?) which
>> could be opened with the ignition?
>
> Fit 3 in line if you are that worried!

See above.

>> - It doesn't look like I'd need a way to purge the lines with your
>> setup, is that right?
>
> As long as you keep the supply line away from heat, and small diameter
> with low thermal mass then no. 4mm nylon for eg. If you use braided then
> yes and it causes other problems as well.

I was thinking the cylinder might have to go in the boot (I often have a
car full) so the line would have to run most of the length of the car,
maybe inside, under the sill trim. I thought you said braided would be
good for the long supply line, nylon for the rest? Or should I just use
4mm OD, 2.5mm ID nylon right through?


yOU COULD BUT ITS A BIT BORDERLINE FOR THAT PURPOSE. oN hot days it may
burst on tight radius or where warm near exhaust etc.
I would because it works better. Scrutineers sometimes have other ideas
though.
Braided has various cross section changes and a large internal volume which
causes inconsistent flow and nitrous densities at different times and
temperatures. In this case you can get away with no purge but on occasions
it will not be as instant as it should. And olso on occasion it will run
richer due to the gas boiling as it travels down a large bore warm high
thermal mass tube...



I'll go and try and find some bits then.. cheers for the advice.

Oh, and when I've got something to show I'll get a photo diary going so
you can all laugh at my car.

OK why is my newsreader not adding the little > like it should???

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:59:38 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
> 
> OK why is my newsreader not adding the little > like it should???

Dunno. It worked fine on my last post, same newsreader and everything.

"Works for me" is the phrase, I believe.

Have you got OEQuotefix to go with that Windows Mail? I hear it does 
still work with it, since it's basically OE under the hood...

"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:npHok.42099$E41.1096@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:59:38 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
>>
>> OK why is my newsreader not adding the little > like it should???
>
> Dunno. It worked fine on my last post, same newsreader and everything.
>
> "Works for me" is the phrase, I believe.
>
> Have you got OEQuotefix to go with that Windows Mail? I hear it does
> still work with it, since it's basically OE under the hood...
>
>

No but I will have very soon!

And its working again...
Something to do with line length maybe...