Hi all

Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I guess I 
now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon, it was still 
sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage about a mile from home to 
get some petrol. When I pulled back out onto the dual carriageway, I thought 
it suddenly sounded worse in that I could now hear it when I was 
accelerating. Over the next half mile, it got worse. I limped it into the 
village, and by the time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud enough 
to turn heads ...  :-(

So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in my Haynes book, and 
although it says that you can drop the sump with the engine in, it then goes 
on to say that the end shells are of an "unusual design" in that they don't 
have tabs, and need to be fitted precisely. And that's as far as it goes on 
the subject. Doesn't detail doing the job at all, so do I infer from that, 
that it's not a job that's intended to be done ?

I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set of 
shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a feasible job 
?

Arfa

"Arfa Daily"  wrote in message 
news:6HIrk.306861$7f3.101283@newsfe23.ams2...
> Hi all
>
> Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I guess I 
> now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon, it was still 
> sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage about a mile from home 
> to get some petrol. When I pulled back out onto the dual carriageway, I 
> thought it suddenly sounded worse in that I could now hear it when I was 
> accelerating. Over the next half mile, it got worse. I limped it into the 
> village, and by the time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud 
> enough to turn heads ...  :-(
>
> So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in my Haynes book, and 
> although it says that you can drop the sump with the engine in, it then 
> goes on to say that the end shells are of an "unusual design" in that they 
> don't have tabs, and need to be fitted precisely. And that's as far as it 
> goes on the subject. Doesn't detail doing the job at all, so do I infer 
> from that, that it's not a job that's intended to be done ?
>
> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set 
> of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a 
> feasible job


Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are cast one 
piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then drilled and threads 
cut, then the caps are literally sheared off the block with a massive 
guilotine before being bolted back on after popping in the crank with the 
aforementioned bolts.

If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.

Tim..

> Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are cast one
> piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then drilled and threads
> cut, then the caps are literally sheared off the block with a massive
> guilotine before being bolted back on after popping in the crank with the
> aforementioned bolts.
>
> If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.
>
> Tim..-

 The above is plain wrong, all of it. The Zetec SE engine has an
aluminium bearing beam and normal shells, although they dont have
tabs, the surface finish of the crank bore in the block and the nip
that occurs when the bearing beam bolts are tightened stop them
spinning. The shells are not graded, they are all the same size. The
bearing beam is held by 10 bolts, one either side of each bearing and
is located across the engine by an interference fit between the beam
and the block and longitudinaly the position is set by a fixture in
the press that fits the beam. The final bore is of course machined
after assembly. So you can put a new set of shells in it, as long as
the crank and block are not damaged.

Some iron block engines are made a bit like Tim described, sort of.
The final bore is machined after the caps have been fractured and
bolted back to the block (you have to machine out any deformation
caused by the fracturing process), and these engines still use
conventional shells.

"Tim.."  wrote in message 
news:Vu-dneAbw4pX6TLVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "Arfa Daily"  wrote in message 
> news:6HIrk.306861$7f3.101283@newsfe23.ams2...
>> Hi all
>>
>> Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I guess 
>> I now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon, it was still 
>> sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage about a mile from home 
>> to get some petrol. When I pulled back out onto the dual carriageway, I 
>> thought it suddenly sounded worse in that I could now hear it when I was 
>> accelerating. Over the next half mile, it got worse. I limped it into the 
>> village, and by the time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud 
>> enough to turn heads ...  :-(
>>
>> So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in my Haynes book, 
>> and although it says that you can drop the sump with the engine in, it 
>> then goes on to say that the end shells are of an "unusual design" in 
>> that they don't have tabs, and need to be fitted precisely. And that's as 
>> far as it goes on the subject. Doesn't detail doing the job at all, so do 
>> I infer from that, that it's not a job that's intended to be done ?
>>
>> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set 
>> of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a 
>> feasible job
>
>
> Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are cast 
> one piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then drilled and 
> threads cut, then the caps are literally sheared off the block with a 
> massive guilotine before being bolted back on after popping in the crank 
> with the aforementioned bolts.
>
> If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.
>
> Tim..
>

Ah well. I suppose that makes my poor little motor another victim of our 
throw away society ...

Just out of interest, if there are no shells as such, and one big end had 
been rattling away for a while, (why just one?) without apparently getting 
any worse, I wonder what exactly happened to it yesterday afternoon to cause 
the catastrophic failure within about a mile? It had sounded absolutely no 
different at all, up to the point where I stopped to get petrol.

I had assumed that the shell had actually broken up suddenly, but if there's 
not one ... ?? I would also have expected to lose all oil pressure, but the 
light stayed out and the rest of the engine sounded ok, as far as you could 
tell. It was also running just fine. No loss of power, and still quite 
'smooth', if you set aside the god-awful clatter coming out of it. Is there 
any possibility that it's actually not an end gone ? I can't think of 
anything else that's going to be making so much noise, but then it's been 30 
years since I was pulling down and rebuilding engines for fun, and they've 
changed a lot in that time.

Arfa

On 23 Aug, 17:10, "Arfa Daily"  wrote:
> "Tim.."  wrote in message
>
> news:Vu-dneAbw4pX6TLVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Arfa Daily"  wrote in message
> >news:6HIrk.306861$7f3.101283@newsfe23.ams2...
> >> Hi all
>
> >> Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I guess
> >> I now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon, it was still
> >> sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage about a mile from home
> >> to get some petrol. When I pulled back out onto the dual carriageway, I
> >> thought it suddenly sounded worse in that I could now hear it when I was
> >> accelerating. Over the next half mile, it got worse. I limped it into the
> >> village, and by the time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud
> >> enough to turn heads ...  :-(
>
> >> So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in my Haynes book,
> >> and although it says that you can drop the sump with the engine in, it
> >> then goes on to say that the end shells are of an "unusual design" in
> >> that they don't have tabs, and need to be fitted precisely. And that's as
> >> far as it goes on the subject. Doesn't detail doing the job at all, so do
> >> I infer from that, that it's not a job that's intended to be done ?
>
> >> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set
> >> of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a
> >> feasible job
>
> > Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are cast
> > one piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then drilled and
> > threads cut, then the caps are literally sheared off the block with a
> > massive guilotine before being bolted back on after popping in the crank
> > with the aforementioned bolts.
>
> > If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.
>
> > Tim..
>
> Ah well. I suppose that makes my poor little motor another victim of our
> throw away society ...
>
> Just out of interest, if there are no shells as such, and one big end had
> been rattling away for a while, (why just one?) without apparently getting
> any worse, I wonder what exactly happened to it yesterday afternoon to cause
> the catastrophic failure within about a mile? It had sounded absolutely no
> different at all, up to the point where I stopped to get petrol.
>
> I had assumed that the shell had actually broken up suddenly, but if there's
> not one ... ?? I would also have expected to lose all oil pressure, but the
> light stayed out and the rest of the engine sounded ok, as far as you could
> tell. It was also running just fine. No loss of power, and still quite
> 'smooth', if you set aside the god-awful clatter coming out of it. Is there
> any possibility that it's actually not an end gone ? I can't think of
> anything else that's going to be making so much noise, but then it's been 30
> years since I was pulling down and rebuilding engines for fun, and they've
> changed a lot in that time.
>
> Arfa- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Which bit of "the engine has normal bearing shells and Tim has no idea
about engine design and manufacture" do you not understand?

If you were stripping engines 30 years ago there is no reason why you
cannot investigate and probably repair your engine.

You mentioned big end bearings in your original post, Tim then went on
to talk rubbish about main bearings. Dont listen.
Your engine has fracture split conrods and a normal bearing beam that
holds main bearings. All have conventional shells that can be
replaced, albeit with no tabs.

"Tim.."  wrote in message 
news:Vu-dneAbw4pX6TLVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "Arfa Daily"  wrote in message 
> news:6HIrk.306861$7f3.101283@newsfe23.ams2...
>> Hi all
>>
>> Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I guess 
>> I now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon, it was still 
>> sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage about a mile from home 
>> to get some petrol. When I pulled back out onto the dual carriageway, I 
>> thought it suddenly sounded worse in that I could now hear it when I was 
>> accelerating. Over the next half mile, it got worse. I limped it into the 
>> village, and by the time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud 
>> enough to turn heads ...  :-(
>>
>> So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in my Haynes book, 
>> and although it says that you can drop the sump with the engine in, it 
>> then goes on to say that the end shells are of an "unusual design" in 
>> that they don't have tabs, and need to be fitted precisely. And that's as 
>> far as it goes on the subject. Doesn't detail doing the job at all, so do 
>> I infer from that, that it's not a job that's intended to be done ?
>>
>> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set 
>> of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a 
>> feasible job
>
>
> Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are cast 
> one piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then drilled and 
> threads cut, then the caps are literally sheared off the block with a 
> massive guilotine before being bolted back on after popping in the crank 
> with the aforementioned bolts.
>
> If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.
>
> Tim..

Complete bollocks. The Zetec S/SE crank arrangement is quite normal in all 
respects other than the bearing shells don't have location tangs.

To the OP, if the knocking is that bad the crank will almost certainly need 
regrinding too. No point deciding what's wrong until it's stripped down and 
checked.
-- 
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines

>>> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a  
>>> set
>>> of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a
>>> feasible job
>>
>>


Worth a look before you pay for new shells/ new car. Taking the sump off's  
not that difficult.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 09:50:47 -0700, chongqing.marshall90 wrote:
> 
> You mentioned big end bearings in your original post, Tim then went on
> to talk rubbish about main bearings. Dont listen. Your engine has
> fracture split conrods and a normal bearing beam that holds main
> bearings. All have conventional shells that can be replaced, albeit with
> no tabs.

I'm not sure if it applies to the S/SE Zetecs but on my Zetec-E (a 
silvertop 2.0) the big end bolts are widely known as the major weak point 
of the engine, and replacement high-tensile versions are commonly sold.

Might be worth doing if you're taking it apart anyway?

"Dave Baker"  wrote in message 
news:g8po8o$m0q$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> "Tim.."  wrote in message 
> news:Vu-dneAbw4pX6TLVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> "Arfa Daily"  wrote in message 
>> news:6HIrk.306861$7f3.101283@newsfe23.ams2...
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I guess 
>>> I now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon, it was still 
>>> sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage about a mile from home 
>>> to get some petrol. When I pulled back out onto the dual carriageway, I 
>>> thought it suddenly sounded worse in that I could now hear it when I was 
>>> accelerating. Over the next half mile, it got worse. I limped it into 
>>> the village, and by the time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud 
>>> enough to turn heads ...  :-(
>>>
>>> So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in my Haynes book, 
>>> and although it says that you can drop the sump with the engine in, it 
>>> then goes on to say that the end shells are of an "unusual design" in 
>>> that they don't have tabs, and need to be fitted precisely. And that's 
>>> as far as it goes on the subject. Doesn't detail doing the job at all, 
>>> so do I infer from that, that it's not a job that's intended to be done 
>>> ?
>>>
>>> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set 
>>> of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a 
>>> feasible job
>>
>>
>> Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are cast 
>> one piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then drilled and 
>> threads cut, then the caps are literally sheared off the block with a 
>> massive guilotine before being bolted back on after popping in the crank 
>> with the aforementioned bolts.
>>
>> If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.
>>
>> Tim..
>
> Complete bollocks. The Zetec S/SE crank arrangement is quite normal in all 
> respects other than the bearing shells don't have location tangs.
>
> To the OP, if the knocking is that bad the crank will almost certainly 
> need regrinding too. No point deciding what's wrong until it's stripped 
> down and checked.
> -- 
> Dave Baker
> Puma Race Engines

Thanks for that Dave. I have to say that the Haynes manual didn't suggest 
that there were no shells - only that the big ends were 'unusual' in that 
the shells had no tabs, as you also say, and that as a result, must be 
"accurately positioned during refitting". However, oddly for a Haynes 
manual, it didn't go on to detail actually doing the job, which was why I 
queried whether it was a practical job to do. It does, however, state that 
the mains should not be dismantled as it is not possible to accurately fit 
the shells and caps with 'conventional tooling'.

As far as the noise goes, prior to yesterday afternoon, it had been making a 
knocky rattly sort of noise for a little while, but it was only audible at 
certain RPMs when there was little load on the engine. Dead quiet at idle, 
and nothing I could hear, when accelerating, or when engine under heavy load 
up hills etc. This all changed yesterday in the space of literally one mile. 
I appreciate that there is probably wear on the crank, but for the value of 
the car, I thought it was probably going to be worth just sticking a set of 
shells and perhaps an oil pump in it for the few quid that was going to 
cost. I guess it's got to come down to take a look and come up with a real 
diagnosis, as you say, but do you think that a lot of 'real' damage would 
have been done to the crank in one mile of limping home, if it was just that 
the shell had finally broken up or whatever ? Your input is appreciated.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:
> "Dave Baker"  wrote in message
> news:g8po8o$m0q$1@news.datemas.de...
>>
>> "Tim.."  wrote in message
>> news:Vu-dneAbw4pX6TLVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com...
>>>
>>> "Arfa Daily"  wrote in message
>>> news:6HIrk.306861$7f3.101283@newsfe23.ams2...
>>>> Hi all
>>>>
>>>> Further to my recent post about my knocking Fiesta Zetec engine. I
>>>> guess I now know for sure that it was a big end. This afternoon,
>>>> it was still sounding just the same. I stopped off in a garage
>>>> about a mile from home to get some petrol. When I pulled back out
>>>> onto the dual carriageway, I thought it suddenly sounded worse in
>>>> that I could now hear it when I was accelerating. Over the next
>>>> half mile, it got worse. I limped it into the village, and by the
>>>> time I turned into my road, it was knocking loud enough to turn
>>>> heads ...  :-( So, is that it for my poor little engine ? I looked in 
>>>> my Haynes
>>>> book, and although it says that you can drop the sump with the
>>>> engine in, it then goes on to say that the end shells are of an
>>>> "unusual design" in that they don't have tabs, and need to be
>>>> fitted precisely. And that's as far as it goes on the subject.
>>>> Doesn't detail doing the job at all, so do I infer from that, that
>>>> it's not a job that's intended to be done ?
>>>>
>>>> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping
>>>> a set of shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if
>>>> this is a feasible job
>>>
>>>
>>> Not possible to change shells on the Zetec S / SE engines- they are
>>> cast one piece within the caps, which are then line bored, then
>>> drilled and threads cut, then the caps are literally sheared off
>>> the block with a massive guilotine before being bolted back on
>>> after popping in the crank with the aforementioned bolts.
>>>
>>> If the bottom end is shafted, then its time for a new motor.
>>>
>>> Tim..
>>
>> Complete bollocks. The Zetec S/SE crank arrangement is quite normal
>> in all respects other than the bearing shells don't have location
>> tangs. To the OP, if the knocking is that bad the crank will almost
>> certainly need regrinding too. No point deciding what's wrong until
>> it's stripped down and checked.
>> --
>> Dave Baker
>> Puma Race Engines
>
> Thanks for that Dave. I have to say that the Haynes manual didn't
> suggest that there were no shells - only that the big ends were
> 'unusual' in that the shells had no tabs, as you also say, and that
> as a result, must be "accurately positioned during refitting".
> However, oddly for a Haynes manual, it didn't go on to detail
> actually doing the job, which was why I queried whether it was a
> practical job to do. It does, however, state that the mains should
> not be dismantled as it is not possible to accurately fit the shells
> and caps with 'conventional tooling'.
> As far as the noise goes, prior to yesterday afternoon, it had been
> making a knocky rattly sort of noise for a little while, but it was
> only audible at certain RPMs when there was little load on the
> engine. Dead quiet at idle, and nothing I could hear, when
> accelerating, or when engine under heavy load up hills etc. This all
> changed yesterday in the space of literally one mile. I appreciate
> that there is probably wear on the crank, but for the value of the
> car, I thought it was probably going to be worth just sticking a set
> of shells and perhaps an oil pump in it for the few quid that was
> going to cost. I guess it's got to come down to take a look and come
> up with a real diagnosis, as you say, but do you think that a lot of
> 'real' damage would have been done to the crank in one mile of
> limping home, if it was just that the shell had finally broken up or
> whatever ? Your input is appreciated.
> Arfa

 it is not worth rebuilding it, just get another lump from a breaker.  or 
buy a complete MoT failure is often the cheapest option.

Arfa Daily wrote:

> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set of 
> shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a feasible job 
> ?

I can highly recommend the following place in Catford:
http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/directory/1078/62171.php

They charged me £275 for a Zetec SE with 40K on it and £125 to fit it.
They buy crashed cars at auction and recycle the old engines.

Took 2 days to remove old engine and fit new one and the car is running
like new again now!  I've done 3000 miles since the change so I think I
can safely say it's OK.

Minor problem is that you have to get the car there and yours doesn't
sound very drivable.

Tony

"Tony Brett"  wrote in message 
news:6hj4ukFm8e0eU1@mid.individual.net...
> Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>> I was originally thinking that it would probably be worth dropping a set 
>> of
>> shells and an oil pump in. Anybody care to comment if this is a feasible 
>> job
>> ?
>
> I can highly recommend the following place in Catford:
> http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/directory/1078/62171.php
>
> They charged me £275 for a Zetec SE with 40K on it and £125 to fit it.
> They buy crashed cars at auction and recycle the old engines.
>
> Took 2 days to remove old engine and fit new one and the car is running
> like new again now!  I've done 3000 miles since the change so I think I
> can safely say it's OK.
>
> Minor problem is that you have to get the car there and yours doesn't
> sound very drivable.
>
> Tony

You're right - it's not ! Still waiting for my mate to come round and drop 
the bottom off, in the folorn hope that it's something repairable ... If 
it's not, then I'm beginning to think that it's time to siphon the petrol 
back out, and send it on its final journey. Shame really, as otherwise it's 
not a bad little motor, but there's a limit to how much it's worth pumping 
money into an R reg motor. This week the engine, next week the gearbox and 
all that ...

Ok at least for the next couple of days, as my son has gone away on a 
course, and has left his brand new little 207 here for me to use   :-)

Arfa