Hi there, I have a 1961 VW Beetle and the wiring is a mess.  What is
required by law for the MOT in terms of electrics?

- Do I need any fog lights front or rear?
- Do I need a hazard lights?
- Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?
- Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
horn, lights etc?)

The car will shortly have the original style rear lights which are
just a single red light which acts as the brake light, driving light
and indicator.  I assume that this is also ok for the MOT.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Dave Angel  gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

> Hi there, I have a 1961 VW Beetle and the wiring is a mess.  What is
> required by law for the MOT in terms of electrics?
> 
> - Do I need any fog lights front or rear?

No - Rear 1980, front never a requirement. Rears, if fitted, must work. 
Fronts don't need to work even if fitted.

> - Do I need a hazard lights?

No, c. '74. But - speaking personally - I'd want to add 'em. If fitted, 
must work.

> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?

No, never a requirement.

> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the 
> horn, lights etc?)

Nothing specifically tested in the MOT, but I'd want side/taillights to 
be able to be left on without ignition.

> The car will shortly have the original style rear lights which are just
> a single red light which acts as the brake light, driving light and
> indicator.  I assume that this is also ok for the MOT.

I'll let you figure that one out for yourself...

Tail lights
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_110.htm
Indicators
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_150.htm
Stop lamps
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_130.htm

"Adrian"  wrote in message 
news:g2og4v$4ic$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Dave Angel  gurgled happily, sounding much 
> like
> they were saying:
>
>> Hi there, I have a 1961 VW Beetle and the wiring is a mess.  What 
>> is
>> required by law for the MOT in terms of electrics?

There are two sets of legal requirements, the C&U regs (for the year 
of manufacture/registration) and the (current) MOT regs, items not 
required under the relevant C&U regs are not required for the MOT - 
but - if later additions, such as Hazard Lights, have been fitted then 
they will be tested to the relevant or current MOT test standard.

>>
>> - Do I need any fog lights front or rear?
>
> No - Rear 1980, front never a requirement. Rears, if fitted, must 
> work.
> Fronts don't need to work even if fitted.
>
>> - Do I need a hazard lights?
>
> No, c. '74. But - speaking personally - I'd want to add 'em. If 
> fitted,
> must work.
>
>> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?
>
> No, never a requirement.

I think you will find that it is a requirement for the C&U regs, it's 
not how ever part of the MOT check.

>
>> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
>> horn, lights etc?)
>
> Nothing specifically tested in the MOT, but I'd want side/taillights 
> to
> be able to be left on without ignition.

Again, stop talking about the MOT, what is important here is the C&U 
regs, considering that 'parking lights' were a requirement at the very 
minimum 'side lights' need to be independent of ignition switch.

>
>> The car will shortly have the original style rear lights which are 
>> just
>> a single red light which acts as the brake light, driving light and
>> indicator.  I assume that this is also ok for the MOT.

Yes, *IF* that is the original UK fitment.

>
> I'll let you figure that one out for yourself...
>
> Tail lights
> http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_110.htm
> Indicators
> http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_150.htm
> Stop lamps
> http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_130.htm

The C&U regs are what is important, no changes in the C&U regs (as far 
as PLG vehicles are concerned) have been made retrospective, whilst 
the MOT reflects the requirements of the C&U regs in force for the 
year of vehicle.

":Jerry:" <INVALID@INVALID.INVALID> gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

>>> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?

>> No, never a requirement.

> I think you will find that it is a requirement for the C&U regs

It isn't. Or, if it is, Citroen were infringing C&U as late as 1990 when 
they were flogging new 2cvs without a main beam warning light.

>>> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
>>> horn, lights etc?)

>> Nothing specifically tested in the MOT, but I'd want side/taillights to
>> be able to be left on without ignition.

> Again, stop talking about the MOT, what is important here is the C&U
> regs, considering that 'parking lights' were a requirement at the very
> minimum 'side lights' need to be independent of ignition switch.

Do they? _Need_ to be? Care to point us to a reference as to that?

> The C&U regs are what is important, no changes in the C&U regs (as far
> as PLG vehicles are concerned) have been made retrospective, whilst the
> MOT reflects the requirements of the C&U regs in force for the year of
> vehicle.

That's fine. D'you want to actually be helpful and point us all at the 
C&U regs that would be applicable to a 1961-registered vehicle?

Here in the real world, the MOT requirements are as good as you're going 
to get - both in terms of actual compliance requirement and in terms of 
what you may get hassle over.

>>>> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
>>>> horn, lights etc?)

>>> Nothing specifically tested in the MOT, but I'd want side/taillights to
>>> be able to be left on without ignition.

>> Again, stop talking about the MOT, what is important here is the C&U
>> regs, considering that 'parking lights' were a requirement at the very
>> minimum 'side lights' need to be independent of ignition switch.

>Do they? _Need_ to be? Care to point us to a reference as to that?

Rightly or wrongly, I know someone who had an MOT failure because the 
sidelights were wired through the ignition switch.

>> The C&U regs are what is important, no changes in the C&U regs (as far
>> as PLG vehicles are concerned) have been made retrospective, whilst the
>> MOT reflects the requirements of the C&U regs in force for the year of
>> vehicle.
>
> That's fine. D'you want to actually be helpful and point us all at the
> C&U regs that would be applicable to a 1961-registered vehicle?
>
> Here in the real world, the MOT requirements are as good as you're going
> to get - both in terms of actual compliance requirement and in terms of
> what you may get hassle over.

I can't give a reference but my understanding is that some retrospective 
changes have been made to C & U. All cars need windscreen washers (unless 
the windscreen opens or can be seen round/over) and rear reflectors.

"Malcolm" <malcolm$$1234$$@btinternet.com> gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

>>>>> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
>>>>> horn, lights etc?)

>>>> Nothing specifically tested in the MOT, but I'd want side/taillights
>>>> to be able to be left on without ignition.

>>> Again, stop talking about the MOT, what is important here is the C&U
>>> regs, considering that 'parking lights' were a requirement at the very
>>> minimum 'side lights' need to be independent of ignition switch.

>>Do they? _Need_ to be? Care to point us to a reference as to that?

> Rightly or wrongly, I know someone who had an MOT failure because the
> sidelights were wired through the ignition switch.

Did it have dim-dip fitted?

The only mention of ignition switch in the MOT tester's manual, as far as 
sidelights are concerned, is...
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_110.htm
"On vehicles fitted with dim-dip headlamp systems, the front position 
lamps must be checked for operation with the ignition switched off."

> I can't give a reference but my understanding is that some retrospective
> changes have been made to C & U. All cars need windscreen washers
> (unless the windscreen opens or can be seen round/over) and rear
> reflectors.

...both of which are tested in the MOT...

The message 
from "Malcolm" <malcolm$$1234$$@btinternet.com> contains these words:

> I can't give a reference but my understanding is that some retrospective 
> changes have been made to C & U. All cars need windscreen washers (unless 
> the windscreen opens or can be seen round/over) and rear reflectors. 

ISTR that the windscreen washer requirement came in circa 1970. At the
time I was running an old ex commercial 2A Land Rover with just one
wiper (which was apparently still legal) but it lacked a proper washer.
My first line of defence, had I ever been stopped, was that I had an
openable windscreen. My second that the ex washing up bottle I carried
was an excellent windscreen washer at least for the drivers side. I
never had to put it to the test so I don't know if I would have got away
with it.

-- 
Roger Chapman

Roger  gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

>> I can't give a reference but my understanding is that some
>> retrospective changes have been made to C & U. All cars need windscreen
>> washers (unless the windscreen opens or can be seen round/over) and
>> rear reflectors.

> ISTR that the windscreen washer requirement came in circa 1970. At the
> time I was running an old ex commercial 2A Land Rover with just one
> wiper (which was apparently still legal) but it lacked a proper washer.
> My first line of defence, had I ever been stopped, was that I had an
> openable windscreen. My second that the ex washing up bottle I carried
> was an excellent windscreen washer at least for the drivers side. I
> never had to put it to the test so I don't know if I would have got away
> with it.

Openable windscreen's good enough.

On 12 Jun, 10:26, ":Jerry:" <INVA...@INVALID.INVALID> wrote:
> "Adrian"  wrote in message
>

> >> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?
>
> > No, never a requirement.
>
> I think you will find that it is a requirement for the C&U regs, it's
> not how ever part of the MOT check.
.
Looks at 2CV on the drive ...

... at the 1985 2CV on the drive ...

... ... at the dashboard of the 1985 2CV on the drive.

Ian

On 12 Jun, 21:42, Roger  wrote:

> ISTR that the windscreen washer requirement came in circa 1970. At the
> time I was running an old ex commercial 2A Land Rover with just one
> wiper (which was apparently still legal) but it lacked a proper washer.
> My first line of defence, had I ever been stopped, was that I had an
> openable windscreen. My second that the ex washing up bottle I carried
> was an excellent windscreen washer at least for the drivers side. I
> never had to put it to the test so I don't know if I would have got away
> with it.

Pal of mine had an old Landrover which failed its MOT because the
windscreen wiper wasn't working. "Hang on mo, " he said, removing it
entirely. "Retest please." The tester almost had apoplexy, but had to
pass him.

Ian

Roger wrote:
<snip>
> ISTR that the windscreen washer requirement came in circa 1970. At the
> time I was running an old ex commercial 2A Land Rover with just one
> wiper (which was apparently still legal) but it lacked a proper washer.

That is about the right date.  I was driving a Mayflower at the time, 
and had to retro-fit windscreen washers to it.  You could buy a hand 
operated push-to-pump kit, but it had a wicket return spring and needed 
something a bit more substantial than a right-angled switch bracket to 
fix it to.

I remember fitting the pump to an old spare windscreen wiper motor which 
I mounted somewhere under the bonnet, so that when it was switched on it 
squirted water rather than moved the wipers.  Very posh - a 1952 
Mayflower with electric windscreen washers!

Jim

>
> That's fine. D'you want to actually be helpful and point us all at the
> C&U regs that would be applicable to a 1961-registered vehicle?
>

What you need are the Lighting Regulations
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/uksi_19891796_en_1
However, vehicles that are type aproved in another EU country are also
accepted under UK law.

John

John  gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

>> That's fine. D'you want to actually be helpful and point us all at the
>> C&U regs that would be applicable to a 1961-registered vehicle?

> What you need are the Lighting Regulations
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/uksi_19891796_en_1
> However, vehicles that are type aproved in another EU country are also 
> accepted under UK law.

Nope, not that simple.

First off, the 1989 RVLR doesn't tell you what's applicable to 1961 
vehicles. There's a clue in the "1989" bit. It only covers new vehicles 
from that date forward.

Secondly, it's not as simple as "OK in the EU? OK in the UK", as anybody 
who's ever imported and UK registered a car will know. Many EU countries 
didn't require foglights, side repeaters and other stuff - seatbelts, 
even - at the same times as the UK did, so retro-fitting is often 
required. Not to mention, of course, that headlight dip and fog lights 
may need to be changed to cope with the fact we drive on the left.

Basically, everything that was fitted as original equipment should be 
present and working. If any other electrics have been added it is best to 
make sure that they work! (Some testers try to cover themselves by requiring 
everything to work)

"Dave Angel"  wrote in message 
news:da6c6fb1-bc19-41a7-b2a4-a6da1b67340b@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Hi there, I have a 1961 VW Beetle and the wiring is a mess.  What is
> required by law for the MOT in terms of electrics?
>
> - Do I need any fog lights front or rear?
> - Do I need a hazard lights?
> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?
> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
> horn, lights etc?)
>
> The car will shortly have the original style rear lights which are
> just a single red light which acts as the brake light, driving light
> and indicator.  I assume that this is also ok for the MOT.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.

> "Dave Angel"  wrote in message 
> news:da6c6fb1-bc19-41a7-b2a4-a6da1b67340b@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi there, I have a 1961 VW Beetle and the wiring is a mess.  What is
>> required by law for the MOT in terms of electrics?
>>
>> - Do I need any fog lights front or rear?
>> - Do I need a hazard lights?
>> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?
>> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
>> horn, lights etc?)
>>
>> The car will shortly have the original style rear lights which are
>> just a single red light which acts as the brake light, driving light
>> and indicator.  I assume that this is also ok for the MOT.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any help. 

Peter Chadbund wrote:
 > Basically, everything that was fitted as original equipment should be
 > present and working. If any other electrics have been added it is 
best > to make sure that they work! (Some testers try to cover 
themselves by > requiring everything to work)

To answer the other half of your question, I think sidelights have to 
work with the ignition off, as do hazard lights if fitted (and there is 
no requirement to have them fitted).  There is no particular requirement 
for whether anything else works without the ignition on, but it can if 
wired like that (in the 1950s and 1960s the horn was often wired to work 
with ignition off by some manufacturers, and with ignition on by others).

Reversing lights are not part of the MOT test and nor is the interior 
light, so if you have them fitted, it will not matter if they work or 
not.  Assume that everything else if fitted, must work.  But if it was 
not original equipment, it doesn't have to be fitted now (except 
windscreen washers).

Jim

Jim Warren wrote:
>> "Dave Angel"  wrote in message
>> news:da6c6fb1-bc19-41a7-b2a4-a6da1b67340b@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hi there, I have a 1961 VW Beetle and the wiring is a mess.  What is
>>> required by law for the MOT in terms of electrics?
>>>
>>> - Do I need any fog lights front or rear?
>>> - Do I need a hazard lights?
>>> - Do I need a high beam indicator bulb?
>>> - Does anything have to come on whilst the ignition is off (ie, the
>>> horn, lights etc?)
>>>
>>> The car will shortly have the original style rear lights which are
>>> just a single red light which acts as the brake light, driving light
>>> and indicator.  I assume that this is also ok for the MOT.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any help. 
> 
> Peter Chadbund wrote:
>> Basically, everything that was fitted as original equipment should be
>> present and working. If any other electrics have been added it is best
>> to make sure that they work! (Some testers try to cover themselves by
>> requiring everything to work)
> 
> To answer the other half of your question, I think sidelights have to
> work with the ignition off, as do hazard lights if fitted (and there is
> no requirement to have them fitted).  There is no particular requirement
> for whether anything else works without the ignition on, but it can if
> wired like that (in the 1950s and 1960s the horn was often wired to work
> with ignition off by some manufacturers, and with ignition on by others).
> 
> Reversing lights are not part of the MOT test and nor is the interior
> light, so if you have them fitted, it will not matter if they work or
> not.  Assume that everything else if fitted, must work.  But if it was
> not original equipment, it doesn't have to be fitted now (except
> windscreen washers).

Front fog lights (if fitted) are not a testable item. I've got them on
my MG ZB and asked the examiner, after observing that they were never
switched on.

Dan Smithers  gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

>> Reversing lights are not part of the MOT test and nor is the interior
>> light, so if you have them fitted, it will not matter if they work or
>> not.  Assume that everything else if fitted, must work.  But if it was
>> not original equipment, it doesn't have to be fitted now (except
>> windscreen washers).

> Front fog lights (if fitted) are not a testable item.

Seconded. They never worked on my ol' CX.

It's easy to see what is and isn't testable, and what can and can't fail 
- www.motuk.co.uk, click on "tester's manual". If it ain't explicitly 
listed as a "reason for rejectin", it CAN'T be failed on.