'Morning all,
Anyone know if it's really necessary to use the special tool mentioned 
in the (Haynes) manual for resetting the rear brakes on a Rover P6? I 
need to change the pads, a job I've not done before on this one.

"Willy Eckerslyke"  wrote in message 
news:5ooafeFnbob1U1@mid.individual.net...
> 'Morning all,
> Anyone know if it's really necessary to use the special tool mentioned in 
> the (Haynes) manual for resetting the rear brakes on a Rover P6? I need to 
> change the pads, a job I've not done before on this one.

If you mean the Girling tool for winding the automatic adjuster back into 
the piston, it's not necessary. IIRC it's easier to remove the caliper and 
wind it in by hand.
I have the tool, and found it slow and frustrating to use. Keeps slipping 
off etc.
Mike.

Mike G wrote:
> 
> "Willy Eckerslyke"  wrote in message 
> news:5ooafeFnbob1U1@mid.individual.net...
>> 'Morning all,
>> Anyone know if it's really necessary to use the special tool mentioned 
>> in the (Haynes) manual for resetting the rear brakes on a Rover P6? I 
>> need to change the pads, a job I've not done before on this one.
> 
> If you mean the Girling tool for winding the automatic adjuster back 
> into the piston, it's not necessary. IIRC it's easier to remove the 
> caliper and wind it in by hand.

Just what I wanted to hear. Thanks Mike.

> I have the tool, and found it slow and frustrating to use. Keeps 
> slipping off etc.

Not a statement you'd want taken out of context!

In article ,
   Willy Eckerslyke  wrote:
> 'Morning all,
> Anyone know if it's really necessary to use the special tool mentioned 
> in the (Haynes) manual for resetting the rear brakes on a Rover P6? I 
> need to change the pads, a job I've not done before on this one.

No - you can do it with your fingers. They'll bleed for some time
afterwards... Thin leather gloves etc can help.

Slacken the rear final drive mounting nuts down to the ends of the thread
- that will give adequate clearance to get at them. Clean the 'piston'
thoroughly before attempting to wind back in - remember it's a mechanical
device at this point not hydraulic so can be lubricated sparingly with
ordinary oil. If they are really stiff remove the calipers, dismantle and
clean up/lubricate the mechanism. In good condition it is one of the best
handbrakes fitted to any car ever.

-- 
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>> Anyone know if it's really necessary to use the special tool mentioned 
>> in the (Haynes) manual for resetting the rear brakes on a Rover P6? I 
>> need to change the pads, a job I've not done before on this one.
> 
> No - you can do it with your fingers. They'll bleed for some time
> afterwards... 

I'm used to that.

> Slacken the rear final drive mounting nuts down to the ends of the thread
> - that will give adequate clearance to get at them.

That's handy, I need to replace one of the mounting bushes anyway, so 
can combine both jobs. Thanks for the tip.

> Clean the 'piston'
> thoroughly before attempting to wind back in - remember it's a mechanical
> device at this point not hydraulic so can be lubricated sparingly with
> ordinary oil. If they are really stiff remove the calipers, dismantle and
> clean up/lubricate the mechanism. In good condition it is one of the best
> handbrakes fitted to any car ever.

Indeed. As is probably all too common, the pads have worn right down so 
I'm expecting the pistons to put up a fight. As I'm replacing the front 
callipers and will be bleeding the system, removing the rears to clean 
up on the bench won't be any great hardship.

I thought I may as well switch to silicone brake fluid too while I'm at 
it. You haven't heard anything about P6s disliking it have you?
It's worked well in my Triumph for quite a few years.

In article ,
   Willy Eckerslyke  wrote:
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> >> Anyone know if it's really necessary to use the special tool
> >> mentioned in the (Haynes) manual for resetting the rear brakes on a
> >> Rover P6? I need to change the pads, a job I've not done before on
> >> this one.
> > 
> > No - you can do it with your fingers. They'll bleed for some time
> > afterwards... 

> I'm used to that.

;-)

> > Slacken the rear final drive mounting nuts down to the ends of the
> > thread - that will give adequate clearance to get at them.

> That's handy, I need to replace one of the mounting bushes anyway, so 
> can combine both jobs. Thanks for the tip.

Can you now get them? It was one reason I got rid of mine in the mid '80s
- the various Metalistic mountings were like hen's teeth. Think I paid 50
quid for one. 

> > Clean the 'piston' thoroughly before attempting to wind back in -
> > remember it's a mechanical device at this point not hydraulic so can
> > be lubricated sparingly with ordinary oil. If they are really stiff
> > remove the calipers, dismantle and clean up/lubricate the mechanism.
> > In good condition it is one of the best handbrakes fitted to any car
> > ever.

> Indeed. As is probably all too common, the pads have worn right down so 
> I'm expecting the pistons to put up a fight. As I'm replacing the front 
> callipers and will be bleeding the system, removing the rears to clean 
> up on the bench won't be any great hardship.

In which case winding them back will be easy. Although the caliper pivots
can fight a bit when trying to remove them. 
 I hope you have a WS manual - the handbrake mechanism inside the caliper
is a bit complicated to understand. Or was to me.

> I thought I may as well switch to silicone brake fluid too while I'm at 
> it. You haven't heard anything about P6s disliking it have you?
> It's worked well in my Triumph for quite a few years.

Hmm. I've often heard bad things about it. If you change ordinary fluid
regularly - every two years or so - you'll not have rusting problems
anyway.

-- 
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
   Mike G  wrote:
> If you mean the Girling tool for winding the automatic adjuster back
> into the piston, it's not necessary. IIRC it's easier to remove the
> caliper and wind it in by hand. I have the tool, and found it slow and
> frustrating to use. Keeps slipping off etc.

Yes. Easier to use if the whole car was up on a ramp or you have a decent
pit. Tricky lying underneath. If it had a proper ratchet it would be
easier - pulling the lever out to move it round a notch pulls off the
tool. As it were, missus.

-- 
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>> That's handy, I need to replace one of the mounting bushes anyway, so 
>> can combine both jobs. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> Can you now get them? It was one reason I got rid of mine in the mid '80s
> - the various Metalistic mountings were like hen's teeth. Think I paid 50
> quid for one. 

They're all available from Wadham's, but aren't cheap. That particular 
bush was 20 quid + VAT and isn't genuine Metalastic. That, I believe is 
the problem, so folk are switching to polyurethane bushes to get around 
quality issues. They do turn up occasionally on eBay, where the same 
people always seem to end up bidding against each other.

>  I hope you have a WS manual - the handbrake mechanism inside the caliper
> is a bit complicated to understand. Or was to me.

Hmm, I've only got a Haynes. Better make sure I photograph it all as it 
comes apart.

>> I thought I may as well switch to silicone brake fluid too while I'm at 
>> it. You haven't heard anything about P6s disliking it have you?
>> It's worked well in my Triumph for quite a few years.
> 
> Hmm. I've often heard bad things about it.

So have I. But I've also used it without any problems so aren't too 
bothered by general mutterings. However if someone's specifically had 
trouble with a P6's servo and silicone fluid, for example, I'd certainly 
take notice.
One point is that I changed all the Triumph's hoses and seals before 
switching fluids, and I've heard that rubber that's been in contact with 
DOT4 for a while doesn't take well to silicone. I'll only be replacing 
the caliper and master cylinder seals on this one, which could be a risk.

> If you change ordinary fluid
> regularly - every two years or so - you'll not have rusting problems
> anyway.

Perhaps you don't remember where the bleed nipple is on the rear brakes. 
Believe me, it's not somewhere I want to go on a regular basis!

Willy Eckerslyke wrote:
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> 
>>> That's handy, I need to replace one of the mounting bushes anyway, so 
>>> can combine both jobs. Thanks for the tip.
>>
>> Can you now get them? It was one reason I got rid of mine in the mid '80s
>> - the various Metalistic mountings were like hen's teeth. Think I paid 50
>> quid for one. 
> 
> They're all available from Wadham's, but aren't cheap. That particular 
> bush was 20 quid + VAT and isn't genuine Metalastic. That, I believe is 
> the problem, so folk are switching to polyurethane bushes to get around 
> quality issues. They do turn up occasionally on eBay, where the same 
> people always seem to end up bidding against each other.
> 
>>  I hope you have a WS manual - the handbrake mechanism inside the caliper
>> is a bit complicated to understand. Or was to me.
> 
> Hmm, I've only got a Haynes. Better make sure I photograph it all as it 
> comes apart.
> 
>>> I thought I may as well switch to silicone brake fluid too while I'm 
>>> at it. You haven't heard anything about P6s disliking it have you?
>>> It's worked well in my Triumph for quite a few years.
>>
>> Hmm. I've often heard bad things about it.
> 
> So have I. But I've also used it without any problems so aren't too 
> bothered by general mutterings. However if someone's specifically had 
> trouble with a P6's servo and silicone fluid, for example, I'd certainly 
> take notice.
> One point is that I changed all the Triumph's hoses and seals before 
> switching fluids, and I've heard that rubber that's been in contact with 
> DOT4 for a while doesn't take well to silicone. I'll only be replacing 
> the caliper and master cylinder seals on this one, which could be a risk.
> 
>> If you change ordinary fluid
>> regularly - every two years or so - you'll not have rusting problems
>> anyway.
> 
> Perhaps you don't remember where the bleed nipple is on the rear brakes. 
> Believe me, it's not somewhere I want to go on a regular basis!

My PI was bought with DOT5 in and I have kept it like that.  But I 
wouldn't have bothered to make the change myself.  And if you ever have 
a garage do anything with the brakes, it is essential that you gave a 
big *DOT5 Only* notice on your fluid reservoir.  Because if DOT4 and 
DOT5 ever get mixed in the same system it is a flush everything, replace 
everything nightmare.

I have also heard that changing from DOT4 to DOT5 (or vice versa) 
without changing *all* the seals and rubbers (Master cylinder too!) is a 
recipe for premature failure.  Unless you are going to be doing lots of 
crash stops from high speed and need the higher spec fluid, it is 
probably more trouble than it is worth to change.

Jim

Jim Warren wrote:

> My PI was bought with DOT5 in and I have kept it like that.  But I 
> wouldn't have bothered to make the change myself.  And if you ever have 
> a garage do anything with the brakes, it is essential that you gave a 
> big *DOT5 Only* notice on your fluid reservoir.  Because if DOT4 and 
> DOT5 ever get mixed in the same system it is a flush everything, replace 
> everything nightmare.

It shouldn't be though, should it? I understood that one of the specs of 
the DOT rating was that they had to be capable of being used together 
safely. Obviously I'm not advocating mixing them as that removes all the 
benefits of DOT5.

> I have also heard that changing from DOT4 to DOT5 (or vice versa) 
> without changing *all* the seals and rubbers (Master cylinder too!) is a 
> recipe for premature failure.

Yes, I'd heard too. Perhaps I'd best give a miss this time.

>  Unless you are going to be doing lots of 
> crash stops from high speed and need the higher spec fluid, it is 
> probably more trouble than it is worth to change.

Erm, sorry to disagree again, but I'd have said those circumstances were 
exactly when you _don't_ want DOT5's extra sponginess.

Willy Eckerslyke wrote:

> It shouldn't be though, should it? I understood that one of the specs of 
> the DOT rating was that they had to be capable of being used together 
> safely. Obviously I'm not advocating mixing them as that removes all the 
> benefits of DOT5.

It says DON'T DO IT in big letters on my DOT5 top up bottle.  I would 
guess that they say that for a reason.  Perhaps the mixable DOTs end at 
4?  5 is, after all, a different chemical altogether.
> 
> 
>>  Unless you are going to be doing lots of crash stops from high speed 
>> and need the higher spec fluid, it is probably more trouble than it is 
>> worth to change.
> 
> Erm, sorry to disagree again, but I'd have said those circumstances were 
> exactly when you _don't_ want DOT5's extra sponginess.

Not sure.  You get the benefit of no water content, so no steam bubbles 
when everything glows red.  And you don't actually want to lock the 
wheels (ABS and all that) at high speed so a little bit of sponginess is 
helpful.  Having said that, the fraction of a second delay between 
stamping on the pedal in an emergency and feeling the full braking is a 
touch unnerving.  Every time.  I have had DOT5 in the PI for 5 years 
now, and I still haven't got used to it.  Perhaps I don't do enough 
emergency stops :-)

Jim

"Willy Eckerslyke"  wrote in message 
news:5oot3pFnse7dU1@mid.individual.net...

>>  I hope you have a WS manual - the handbrake mechanism inside the caliper
>> is a bit complicated to understand. Or was to me.
>
> Hmm, I've only got a Haynes. Better make sure I photograph it all as it 
> comes apart.

I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6.
Was intending to put it on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair 
offer and it's yours. No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 5Kg 
inc packaging.
Email me if interested.
Mike.

In article ,
   Mike G  wrote:
> I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6. Was intending to put it
> on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair offer and it's yours.
> No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 5Kg inc packaging.

*5* Kg?

-- 
*When the going gets tough, use duct tape

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message 
news:4f3a0be764dave@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article ,
>   Mike G  wrote:
>> I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6. Was intending to put it
>> on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair offer and it's yours.
>> No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 5Kg inc packaging.
>
> *5* Kg?

Whoops!
Make that 5 Lbs.
Thanks.
Any idea of a fair price. Softcover is a little grubby and discoloured but 
inside the pages are perfect.
Mike.

The message 
from "Mike G"  contains these words:

> >> I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6. Was intending to put it
> >> on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair offer and it's yours.
> >> No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 5Kg inc packaging.
> >
> > *5* Kg?

> Whoops!
> Make that 5 Lbs.

Still a great weight. I wonder if the Haynes manual is closer to 5 oz. :-)

My genuine Range Rover manual, a single volume from the early 80s,
weighs in at a mere 2.5 lbs but the series 2 Land Rover set I used to
have ran, IIRC, to 5 volumes and could easily have exceeded 5 lbs.

-- 
Roger Chapman

"Roger"  wrote in message 
news:313030303131343447279B0664@nospam.zetnet.co.uk...
> The message 
> from "Mike G"  contains these words:
>
>> >> I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6. Was intending to put 
>> >> it
>> >> on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair offer and it's yours.
>> >> No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 5Kg inc packaging.
>> >
>> > *5* Kg?
>
>> Whoops!
>> Make that 5 Lbs.
>
> Still a great weight.

Probably because of the paper quality. Although the pages are not 
particularly thick, they do seem to be very dense, with a fairly smooth 
finish.
It's also about 40mm thick.
Mike.

Mike G wrote:

> I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6.
> Was intending to put it on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair 
> offer and it's yours. No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 
> 5Kg inc packaging.
> Email me if interested.

I am, so have done.

Jim Warren wrote:
> Willy Eckerslyke wrote:
> 
>> It shouldn't be though, should it? I understood that one of the specs 
>> of the DOT rating was that they had to be capable of being used 
>> together safely. Obviously I'm not advocating mixing them as that 
>> removes all the benefits of DOT5.
> 
> It says DON'T DO IT in big letters on my DOT5 top up bottle.  I would 
> guess that they say that for a reason.  Perhaps the mixable DOTs end at 
> 4?  5 is, after all, a different chemical altogether.

The packaging on Automec DOT5 fluid says their's is safe to mix, but I 
do recall them including warning labels to fit to the reservoir telling 
you not to. That's probably just a reminder, to stop garages topping it 
up with normal brake fluid.
I can't see that it'd matter if the two fluids remained seperate as the 
hydraulic effect would still work, innit.

Willy Eckerslyke wrote:
> Jim Warren wrote:
>> Willy Eckerslyke wrote:
>>
>>> It shouldn't be though, should it? I understood that one of the specs 
>>> of the DOT rating was that they had to be capable of being used 
>>> together safely. Obviously I'm not advocating mixing them as that 
>>> removes all the benefits of DOT5.
>>
>> It says DON'T DO IT in big letters on my DOT5 top up bottle.  I would 
>> guess that they say that for a reason.  Perhaps the mixable DOTs end 
>> at 4?  5 is, after all, a different chemical altogether.
> 
> The packaging on Automec DOT5 fluid says their's is safe to mix, but I 
> do recall them including warning labels to fit to the reservoir telling 
> you not to. That's probably just a reminder, to stop garages topping it 
> up with normal brake fluid.
But the garage normal brake fluid is DOT4, so it clearly isn't a good 
idea to mix them.

> I can't see that it'd matter if the two fluids remained seperate as the 
> hydraulic effect would still work, innit.
Theoretically yes.  But I wonder how long the master cylinder seals will 
last?

jim

Willy Eckerslyke wrote:

> 
> The packaging on Automec DOT5 fluid says their's is safe to mix, but I 
> do recall them including warning labels to fit to the reservoir telling 
> you not to. That's probably just a reminder, to stop garages topping it 
> up with normal brake fluid.
> I can't see that it'd matter if the two fluids remained seperate as the 
> hydraulic effect would still work, innit.

I googled and found this:
DOT 5 Brake Fluid
By Mike Burdick
A while back when this topic came up, I posted excerpts from a Skinned 
Knuckles article on silicone brake fluid.
They made the best attempt I've seen so far to actually address this 
issue with hard data instead of anecdotes. The
data they used came from military tests in jungle conditions and tests 
from the original producer of DOT5 fluid
(DuPont? I can't remember...). Even so, they were not able to come up 
with many conclusions about DOT5 fluid. In
a nutshell, the conclusions were:
1. DOT5 does not absorb water and may be useful where water absorption 
is a problem.
2. DOT5 does NOT mix with DOT3 or DOT4. They also maintain that all 
reported problems with DOT5 are
probably due to some degree of mixing with other fluid types. They said 
the proper way to convert to DOT5
is to totally rebuild the hydraulic system.
3. Reports of DOT5 causing premature failure of rubber brake parts were 
more common with early DOT5
formulations. This is thought to be due to improper addition of swelling 
agents and has been fixed in recent
formulations.
4. DOT5 is compatible with all rubber formulations and it does NOT eat 
paint!
They also made some general recommendations based on this data and 
personal experiences. These, along with
recommendations of list members included:
1. If it works for you, use it. You won't hurt anything if you do the 
conversion correctly. (See, #2 above)
2. Careful bleeding is required to get all of the air out of the system. 
Small bubbles can form in the fluid that
will form large bubbles over time. It may be necessary to do a series of 
bleeds.
3. DOT5 is probably not the thing to use in your race car although it is 
rated to stand up to the heat generated
during racing conditions. The reason for this recommendation is the 
difficult bleeding mentioned above.
4. DOT5 is a good choice for the weekend driver/show car. It doesn't 
absorb water and it doesn't eat paint.
One caveat is that because it doesn't absorb water, water that gets in 
the system will tend to collect at low
points. In this scenario, it would actually be promoting corrosion! 
Annual flushing might be a good idea.

Jim

Jim Warren wrote:

> I googled and found this:
> DOT 5 Brake Fluid
> By Mike Burdick
> A while back when this topic came up, I posted excerpts from a Skinned 
> Knuckles article on silicone brake fluid.
> They made the best attempt I've seen so far to actually address this 
> issue with hard data instead of anecdotes.

Excellent, thanks Jim. That line above sums up precisely what I was 
after too.

My conclusion is that it's probably not worth me making the switch to 
DOT5 in the Rover unless I can be bothered to replace the seals in the 
servo (I've already done most of the others). I think I'll give it a 
miss this time.
I also suspect that the Rover will be harder to bleed than my Triumph, 
which would complicate things further.
Thanks all, again.

Willy Eckerslyke wrote:
> Jim Warren wrote:
> 
>> I googled and found this:
>> DOT 5 Brake Fluid
>> By Mike Burdick
>> A while back when this topic came up, I posted excerpts from a Skinned 
>> Knuckles article on silicone brake fluid.
>> They made the best attempt I've seen so far to actually address this 
>> issue with hard data instead of anecdotes.
> 
> Excellent, thanks Jim. That line above sums up precisely what I was 
> after too.
> 
> My conclusion is that it's probably not worth me making the switch to 
> DOT5 in the Rover unless I can be bothered to replace the seals in the 
> servo (I've already done most of the others). I think I'll give it a 
> miss this time.
> I also suspect that the Rover will be harder to bleed than my Triumph, 
> which would complicate things further.
> Thanks all, again.
The other thing I found when googling, but didn't bother to post, is the 
fact that there is a DOT5.1.  That one is not silicone, but an uprated 
version of DOT4.  So that one *is* compatible with normal garage fluid.

Why on earth didn't they name it DOT4.5  or even DOT6.  Someone, 
somewhere is going to get confused!

Jim

"Willy Eckerslyke"  wrote in message 
news:5or008Fnokb3U1@mid.individual.net...
> Mike G wrote:
>
>> I have a genuine Rover w/shop manual for the P6.
>> Was intending to put it on eBay, but if you're interested make me a fair 
>> offer and it's yours. No idea of postage costs, but it would go about 5Kg 
>> inc packaging.
>> Email me if interested.
>
> I am, so have done.

Received your email.
Replied twice yesterday. Did you not receive them?
Mike.