As I wander around t'internets I've noted a tendency amongst online
pagans to have come from another religion. Since I tend to see other
Western white pagans around the other religions tend to be flavours of
church or Christianity. Now, dissecting the many and varied reactions
to the mother religion of a person is a study on its own, as is
wondering whether this conversion to Paganism is entirely a Western
white phenomenon but that's not what I'm mulling over just now. 

It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
approaching it as a first religion? Would it be more difficult to
learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
child, for instance?


-- 
Bring on the wonder, we got it all wrong
We pushed you down deep in our souls for too long

"Halla"  wrote in message 
news:552la455ple7ro27t5qk81jj4bpfib2dvr@4ax.com...
> It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
> religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
> approaching it as a first religion? Would it be more difficult to
> learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
> learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
> ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
> child, for instance?

That'll be me then.

Never had any time for religion as a child (far too interested in science) 
or as a teenager (far too interested in revolution).

Came to Paganism via a complicated mix of Celtic studies, Welsh 
liberationist politics, and a search for my roots.

There came a point where the intellectual parts of study seemed to merge 
with spiritual messages I started to get from the Land, and I realised that 
there wasn't any solid boundary between one and 'tother.

In a way, having no previous contact made things easier (no one else's 
baggage for me to feel uncomfortable about, in whole or in part) and partly 
more difficult (having to make things up from scratch).

Don't know what sort of sense that makes!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:14:51 +0100, "Ffred Clegg"
 blethered:

>
>"Halla"  wrote in message 
>news:552la455ple7ro27t5qk81jj4bpfib2dvr@4ax.com...
>> It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
>> religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
>> approaching it as a first religion? Would it be more difficult to
>> learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
>> learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
>> ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
>> child, for instance?
>
>That'll be me then.
>
>Never had any time for religion as a child (far too interested in science) 
>or as a teenager (far too interested in revolution).

Did any of your family or close people try and teach you about some
religion or other though, as if you should be personally involved with
it?

>
>Came to Paganism via a complicated mix of Celtic studies, Welsh 
>liberationist politics, and a search for my roots.
>
>There came a point where the intellectual parts of study seemed to merge 
>with spiritual messages I started to get from the Land, and I realised that 
>there wasn't any solid boundary between one and 'tother.

For some reason that made me smile. Who was it who started this
seperation anyway? It seems to have been going on for a while. 

>
>In a way, having no previous contact made things easier (no one else's 
>baggage for me to feel uncomfortable about, in whole or in part) and partly 
>more difficult (having to make things up from scratch).

If you don't mind my asking, what do you do for your 'religious
practice' (for want of a better phrase - I'm also happy to audition
alternative descriptions!)? 

>
>Don't know what sort of sense that makes!

Plenty. :-)


-- 
Bring on the wonder, we got it all wrong
We pushed you down deep in our souls for too long

"Halla"  wrote in message 
news:vvmma41vabv7cus2n571amgg649hjt9pn5@4ax.com...
> Did any of your family or close people try and teach you about some
> religion or other though, as if you should be personally involved with
> it?

Got sent to Sunday  School a couple of times, after I'd got into a 
scientific frame of mind, so all the religious bit struck me as a load of 
rubbish.

Didn't help that I was also extremely short sighted and no one had noticed 
so I was sort of wandering around in a fog not really knowing what was going 
on anyway!

Making mud pies and catching frogs was much more fun.

I suppose I was fortunate in the family, none of them were particularly in 
your face about religion.

> If you don't mind my asking, what do you do for your 'religious
> practice' (for want of a better phrase - I'm also happy to audition
> alternative descriptions!)?

I'm sort of hedge, Celtic-influenced, Welsh language, cunning folkish.

Tend to work in spirals rather than circles.

Feel comfortable in liminal places.

Very informal, most of my ritual goes into making beer!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:06:39 +0100, "Ffred Clegg"
 wrote:

>Very informal, most of my ritual goes into making beer!

Ah!  A *sensible* religion.

-- 

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Halla wrote:
> As I wander around t'internets I've noted a tendency amongst online
> pagans to have come from another religion. Since I tend to see other
> Western white pagans around the other religions tend to be flavours of
> church or Christianity. Now, dissecting the many and varied reactions
> to the mother religion of a person is a study on its own, as is
> wondering whether this conversion to Paganism is entirely a Western
> white phenomenon but that's not what I'm mulling over just now. 

Its an observation I've also made, and a conclusion I've also wondered.

Someone one said that neo-Wiccan Paganism was just Christianity with a 
Politically Correct filter. Not true, but I can sort of see the point 
they were alluding to. The very things modern day disaffected Christians 
 
are searching for are up front and obvious in neo-Pagan Wicca, asi f it 
was *designed* to pick up disaffected modern Chrstians looking for a 
satisfying spiritual existance. There's an equal place for women, 
there's relative rather than absolute morality, and there's the idea one 
can be self empowered in the miracle department rather than begging a 
God that seems rather two-faced at best. And then there's the stodgy 
traditions of the church and its patriachal nature rather than the 
community based, merit based idea of the Coven.

I could argue, like Phillip Johnson in 
_Jesus_and_the_Gods_of_the_New_Age_ that all the things disaffected 
Christians turn to Paganism to satisfy can be present in Christianity if 
one tries, but thats no thte practical answer: churches and 'traditions' 
don't change easily within Christendom, and heck, its honestly easier to 
turn to Paganism whilst dealing with the baggage left by tradtional 
Christianity than trying to work through it all whilst still going to 
the same congregation and being 'different'.

This perhaps is why I am churchless - I found alot of answers within 
neo-Wiccan Paganism that I could not find (easily) within Christendom (I 
later found they *were* there, but hidden. In Paganism, they are out 
there and easy to find), but I didn't want to necessarily throw out the 
stuff I did find satisfying about Christianity to become 100% Pagan either.

And Christo-Paganism is not an easy path to take either, neither 'side' 
accepts the other part, and can get quite agressive about it.

Quakerism is the closest I've gotten so far, but the closest meeting is 
an hour's drive away, and on every 3rd Saturday of the month. By the 
time I realise its the 3rd Saturday of the month, I'm already doing 
something else.

> It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
> religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
> approaching it as a first religion? 

Its going to be hard to find someone whose first exposure to any form of 
religion comes as a rational adult.

Every person, whether raised in a religious family or not, is steeped in 
the dominant religion or religions of their culture. Our culture(s) for 
example are still dominated by Christianity, as is our literature and 
our language, our jokes, our music, etc etc. It is inescapable.

> Would it be more difficult to
> learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
> learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
> ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
> child, for instance?

Again, we all partcipate in rituals, whether religious or not.

But perhaps those coming from another religion in which they we 
'regulars' will have an understanding of spiritual matters and at least 
some language to express their thoughts. I think it would be very hard 
for a total agnostic who had absolutely no interest and hterefore no 
opinion on religion - any religion - to suddenly come to a religion as 
unstructured as Paganism and be able to express their thoughts verbally. 
At least with the highly orgnaised, structured, 'traditional' relgions, 
there is plenty of places for instruction and imitation to learn. In 
Paganism, one is sort of expected to be able to figure it all out by 
yourself.  Those of us who at least have some sort of religious language 
before coming Paganism at least have some sort of scaffolding to hold it 
together, even if we're 'restructuring' the top parts :-)

Yowie

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:06:39 +0100, "Ffred Clegg"
 blethered:

>"Halla"  wrote in message 
>news:vvmma41vabv7cus2n571amgg649hjt9pn5@4ax.com...
>> Did any of your family or close people try and teach you about some
>> religion or other though, as if you should be personally involved with
>> it?
>
>Got sent to Sunday  School a couple of times, after I'd got into a 
>scientific frame of mind, so all the religious bit struck me as a load of 
>rubbish.
>

My grandpa took me to Sunday School, all I really remember about it is
meeting two new friends who then moved in across the road from my
other grandparents, and who turned out to be Catholic. I've always
wondered what exactly my grandparents made of that. <g>

>Didn't help that I was also extremely short sighted and no one had noticed 
>so I was sort of wandering around in a fog not really knowing what was going 
>on anyway!

<:-) Losing the use of a sense can have its advantages then. On a
slight tangent, I've been coming across old references to seers. There
seems to have been a notion at one time that to be dumb was to be able
to see into the future. I've heard of the idea of senses being sharper
if one is lacking, but that's in a different league!

>
>Making mud pies and catching frogs was much more fun.

Yep. 

>
>I suppose I was fortunate in the family, none of them were particularly in 
>your face about religion.

Same here. I still don't really know what my folks' views are, and I'm
not going to ask really. 

>
>> If you don't mind my asking, what do you do for your 'religious
>> practice' (for want of a better phrase - I'm also happy to audition
>> alternative descriptions!)?
>
>I'm sort of hedge, Celtic-influenced, Welsh language, cunning folkish.

I see. I really don't want to say 'a common or garden variety pagan'
in case you take it the wrong way but do you see what I mean? A wise
person, untitled.

>
>Tend to work in spirals rather than circles.

Quite. <g>

>
>Feel comfortable in liminal places.
>
>Very informal, most of my ritual goes into making beer!

:-) 

Sounds like my kind of ritual (even if I don't like beer).


-- 
Bring on the wonder, we got it all wrong
We pushed you down deep in our souls for too long

Halla wrote:

> As I wander around t'internets I've noted a tendency amongst online
> pagans to have come from another religion.
...
> but that's not what I'm mulling over just now.
>
> It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
> religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
> approaching it as a first religion? Would it be more difficult to
> learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
> learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
> ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
> child, for instance?

Dunno - s'pose it depends on what you mean by "first religion"? I
mean, ok, so I was christened, and I *chose* to go to Sunday School a
few times (because some mates went, and it got me out the house, and
it could've been interesting), and we had assemblies at school where
we sang hymns and bowed our heads and put our hands together and said
prayers, but does that /really/ count as 'having a religion', 'cause
to me it don't? Yes, it introduced me to solemnity, and yes, it
introduced me to Jesus and his dad (oh yeah, as did R.E. lessons), but
I don't think you (generic) could really call it having a religion.
Heck, if we're going by the first choice stuff that we actually chose
for ourselves, I'm coming to Ppaganism from Satanism. Or does that
still count as Christianity these days? ;)

--
trin

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:45:30 -0700 (PDT), trin
 blethered:

>Halla wrote:
>
>> As I wander around t'internets I've noted a tendency amongst online
>> pagans to have come from another religion.
>...
>> but that's not what I'm mulling over just now.
>>
>> It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
>> religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
>> approaching it as a first religion? Would it be more difficult to
>> learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
>> learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
>> ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
>> child, for instance?
>
>Dunno - s'pose it depends on what you mean by "first religion"? I
>mean, ok, so I was christened, and I *chose* to go to Sunday School a
>few times (because some mates went, and it got me out the house, and
>it could've been interesting), and we had assemblies at school where
>we sang hymns and bowed our heads and put our hands together and said
>prayers, but does that /really/ count as 'having a religion', 'cause
>to me it don't? Yes, it introduced me to solemnity, and yes, it
>introduced me to Jesus and his dad (oh yeah, as did R.E. lessons), but
>I don't think you (generic) could really call it having a religion.

Well, it's one of the things I'm trying to find out to be honest - is
it common for folk to have religion be a big thing as a child, for
instance. It wasn't in my family, yes there was Sunday School and I
was christened but I don't feel that I was really raised as a
Christian or anything. As far as I'm concerned though all the things
you mention above don't count as having a religion - of course that's
merely personal opinion. It's pretty much my own experience of
religion as a child and I don't consider that *I* had a religion. 

>Heck, if we're going by the first choice stuff that we actually chose
>for ourselves, I'm coming to Ppaganism from Satanism. Or does that
>still count as Christianity these days? ;)

That may be outside of the scope of our discussion. ;-)

(And Winamp is playing 'Never Went To Church' at me. <g>)


-- 
Bring on the wonder, we got it all wrong
We pushed you down deep in our souls for too long

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:56:33 +1000, Yowie
 blethered:

>Halla wrote:
>> As I wander around t'internets I've noted a tendency amongst online
>> pagans to have come from another religion. Since I tend to see other
>> Western white pagans around the other religions tend to be flavours of
>> church or Christianity. Now, dissecting the many and varied reactions
>> to the mother religion of a person is a study on its own, as is
>> wondering whether this conversion to Paganism is entirely a Western
>> white phenomenon but that's not what I'm mulling over just now. 
>
>Its an observation I've also made, and a conclusion I've also wondered.
>

I honestly don't really know anyone from any group other than white
British. 

>Someone one said that neo-Wiccan Paganism was just Christianity with a 
>Politically Correct filter. 

Heh. 

>Not true, but I can sort of see the point 
>they were alluding to. The very things modern day disaffected Christians 

Ooh strange formatting. :-)

> 
>are searching for are up front and obvious in neo-Pagan Wicca, asi f it 
>was *designed* to pick up disaffected modern Chrstians looking for a 
>satisfying spiritual existance. 

Well... <eg>

>There's an equal place for women, 
>there's relative rather than absolute morality, and there's the idea one 
>can be self empowered in the miracle department rather than begging a 
>God that seems rather two-faced at best. And then there's the stodgy 
>traditions of the church and its patriachal nature rather than the 
>community based, merit based idea of the Coven.

Then again is it that people react to the impressions of both
institutions rather than the realities? I know what you describe is
the reputation of various churches but we know that what is said and
what happens is not always the same. :-)

>
>I could argue, like Phillip Johnson in 
>_Jesus_and_the_Gods_of_the_New_Age_ that all the things disaffected 
>Christians turn to Paganism to satisfy can be present in Christianity if 
>one tries, but thats no thte practical answer: churches and 'traditions' 
>don't change easily within Christendom, and heck, its honestly easier to 
>turn to Paganism whilst dealing with the baggage left by tradtional 
>Christianity than trying to work through it all whilst still going to 
>the same congregation and being 'different'.

Hmm, that sort of assumes that the congregation is not also the day to
day community though, I imagine that leaving a congregation could lead
to questions from other members (possibly innocent enough, but nosy
nonetheless :-) about the whys and wherefores and if the congregation
is also the social group/neighbours/etc. then that could be a lot of
questions. :-)

>
>This perhaps is why I am churchless - I found alot of answers within 
>neo-Wiccan Paganism that I could not find (easily) within Christendom (I 
>later found they *were* there, but hidden. In Paganism, they are out 
>there and easy to find), but I didn't want to necessarily throw out the 
>stuff I did find satisfying about Christianity to become 100% Pagan either.

Ah, having your cake and eating it, yes, I am familiar with this. ;-)

>
>And Christo-Paganism is not an easy path to take either, neither 'side' 
>accepts the other part, and can get quite agressive about it.

Bafflement can do that. I wonder if Jesus would have been a Wiccan if
he were around today. <g> For myself I can't quite see how
Christo-Paganism works and... no, it's not for me. <:-)

>
>Quakerism is the closest I've gotten so far, but the closest meeting is 
>an hour's drive away, and on every 3rd Saturday of the month. By the 
>time I realise its the 3rd Saturday of the month, I'm already doing 
>something else.

Which I imagine the Quakers are quite accepting of. 

>
>> It may seem obvious to most that people have converted from one
>> religion to another, but there has to be more than one person who is
>> approaching it as a first religion? 
>
>Its going to be hard to find someone whose first exposure to any form of 
>religion comes as a rational adult.

Does exposure count though? I've had exposure to lots of religions but
I don't know much about any of them. I certainly haven't been a member
of all the religions I've been exposed to. 

>
>Every person, whether raised in a religious family or not, is steeped in 
>the dominant religion or religions of their culture. Our culture(s) for 
>example are still dominated by Christianity, as is our literature and 
>our language, our jokes, our music, etc etc. It is inescapable.

So is noticing this a sign of not being soaked through by the dominant
culture or of being so indoctrinated that everything is recognised?
:-) 

>
>> Would it be more difficult to
>> learn to be pagan if one comes from a background of no religious
>> learning or teaching at all - is it easier and more obvious to do
>> ritual if one has already been involved in different rituals as a
>> child, for instance?
>
>Again, we all partcipate in rituals, whether religious or not.

I suppose, although I'm wondering which ones now. :-)

>
>But perhaps those coming from another religion in which they we 
>'regulars' will have an understanding of spiritual matters and at least 
>some language to express their thoughts. 

Perhaps a knowledge of that headspace that prayer/spellwork/etc.
needs?

>I think it would be very hard 
>for a total agnostic who had absolutely no interest and hterefore no 
>opinion on religion - any religion - to suddenly come to a religion as 
>unstructured as Paganism and be able to express their thoughts verbally. 

I'm not sure if I agree with that. 

>At least with the highly orgnaised, structured, 'traditional' relgions, 
>there is plenty of places for instruction and imitation to learn. In 
>Paganism, one is sort of expected to be able to figure it all out by 
>yourself.  Those of us who at least have some sort of religious language 
>before coming Paganism at least have some sort of scaffolding to hold it 
>together, even if we're 'restructuring' the top parts :-)

Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head there - that's what I was
struggling towards. A bit like, I don't know, having piano lessons as
a child - one is then able to play a song for a pub singalong as an
adult or something, that sort of thing. There's a grounding in a skill
set rather than a mindset. Hmm. Don't know why but I've never
considered religion as a skill before now. :-)


-- 
Bring on the wonder, we got it all wrong
We pushed you down deep in our souls for too long