<redelurk>

Could one of my very knowledgeable fellow pagans explain to me the symbology 
of four black swans?

Many thanks....

A xx

"AC"  wrote in message
news:KC%Rj.17973$244.13959@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> <redelurk>
>
> Could one of my very knowledgeable fellow pagans explain to me the
symbology
> of four black swans?
>
> Many thanks....
>

I couldn't find anything specific, beyond a couple of references to swan
lake and the odd link about speculation on symbols of death or guardianship,
but google seems to infer (but not inform) that there is something
significant in russian and australian folklore, you may want to direct your
research in that direction maybe?  Sorry that isn't more helpful.
--
Rhiannon_s
I am me, this is now, we are here!

"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
news:ZPidnX2GG-KBCYXVnZ2dnUVZ8qSnnZ2d@plusnet...

> I couldn't find anything specific, beyond a couple of references to swan
> lake and the odd link about speculation on symbols of death or 
> guardianship,
> but google seems to infer (but not inform) that there is something
> significant in russian and australian folklore, you may want to direct 
> your
> research in that direction maybe?  Sorry that isn't more helpful.

Thanks Rhiannon. I was doind a similar thing via Google and I have 
established a link with black swans and the character known as 'satan' and a 
link between black swans and the 'vampyre' community, but there's something 
else I'm not finding and I'm sure that it must be significant.

Could the four refer to quarters, I ask myself? If so, how to context the 
pieces...

AC xx

"AC"  wrote in message
news:ht0Sj.99504$4f4.3661@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
>
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
> news:ZPidnX2GG-KBCYXVnZ2dnUVZ8qSnnZ2d@plusnet...
>
> > I couldn't find anything specific, beyond a couple of references to swan
> > lake and the odd link about speculation on symbols of death or
> > guardianship,
> > but google seems to infer (but not inform) that there is something
> > significant in russian and australian folklore, you may want to direct
> > your
> > research in that direction maybe?  Sorry that isn't more helpful.
>
> Thanks Rhiannon. I was doind a similar thing via Google and I have
> established a link with black swans and the character known as 'satan' and
a
> link between black swans and the 'vampyre' community, but there's
something
> else I'm not finding and I'm sure that it must be significant.
>
> Could the four refer to quarters, I ask myself? If so, how to context the
> pieces...

Hmm, I dunno.  I mean as far as "satan" and "vampyrse" go, all I know is Ray
WIse from Reaper and James Marsters so I'm not really gonna be able to help.
Although Ray Wise is very seductively sexy in a certain point of view, so
watch Reaper ok.  Erm, beyond that, does the number four have to be
significant, if it does then is it significant in an occult way, if so you
may want to check out japanese folklore as four=death in that.

Of course if you are standing vigil, or as part of an escort then four is
usually the number to go with.  eg, four angels to guard your bed in the
nursery tale/prayer.  I dunno if this is helping.  I'm just rambling really.

What is the context of the swans, that might help?
--
Rhiannon_s
I am me, this is now, we are here!

"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...

> What is the context of the swans, that might help?

Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on my 
context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is any truth, 
meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions made elsewhere. 
It's all part of a big project I'm working on and this is a tiny aspect, but 
I just want to be as accurate as I can be. I will, I promise, tell you off 
group, but I don't want to influence anybody's answers as I know my context 
will. Sorry to sound enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though 
and it's all lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).

I've found a reference on that trust bastion of fact Wikipedia (ha ha!!). 
Problem is, the footnote lacks anything traceable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_emblems_and_popular_culture

"The taking of Black Swans to Europe in the 18th and early 19th centuries 
brought the birds into contact with another aspect of European mythology: 
the attribution of sinister relationships between the devil and 
black-coloured animals such as a black cat. Black Swans were considered to 
be a witch's familiar, and often chased away or killed by superstitious 
folk. This may explain why Black Swans have never established a sizeable 
presence as feral animals in Europe or North America.[10]"
- 10: ^ Scott, op. cit.: 200

Yes, because that reference helps guide to the source material... not.

So, I'm struggling to find anything academic or even significantly anecdotal 
apart from those same Google strange websites. It's just that, as you've 
seen, there appears to be something...

AC xx

"AC"  wrote in message
news:IXgSj.89213$jH5.1961@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
> news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...
>
> > What is the context of the swans, that might help?
>
> Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on my
> context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is any truth,
> meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions made elsewhere.
> It's all part of a big project I'm working on and this is a tiny aspect,
but
> I just want to be as accurate as I can be. I will, I promise, tell you off
> group, but I don't want to influence anybody's answers as I know my
context
> will. Sorry to sound enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though
> and it's all lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).

Uh, ok, but without context its hard to tell symbolism from incidental
imagery or scenery.  There runs a real danger of being locked (a lock being
a focus on a particular aspect and exagerating its significance to the
detriment of other contextual information).

As long as it isn't the Princess Di thing, then four black swans signify
that some people will see anything significant about the stupid vapid
manipulative actress.  I didn't like her, does it show?

--
Rhiannon_s
I am me, this is now, we are here!

"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
news:ZPidnX2GG-KBCYXVnZ2dnUVZ8qSnnZ2d@plusnet...
>
> "AC"  wrote in message
> news:KC%Rj.17973$244.13959@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>> <redelurk>
>>
>> Could one of my very knowledgeable fellow pagans explain to me the
> symbology
>> of four black swans?
>>
>> Many thanks....
>>
>
> I couldn't find anything specific, beyond a couple of references to swan
> lake and the odd link about speculation on symbols of death or 
> guardianship,
> but google seems to infer (but not inform) that there is something
> significant in russian and australian folklore, you may want to direct 
> your
> research in that direction maybe?  Sorry that isn't more helpful.

  The Celtic Legend of "The Children of Lir"?
The Swan of Tuanela from the Saga of Lemenkena ( sp) ?
 Cant think of anything else.
 Jackdaw

"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
news:Id6dnbzuLshVWoTVnZ2dnUVZ8vKdnZ2d@plusnet...

> Uh, ok, but without context its hard to tell symbolism from incidental
> imagery or scenery.  There runs a real danger of being locked (a lock 
> being
> a focus on a particular aspect and exagerating its significance to the
> detriment of other contextual information).

Sure. That I accept. But it's a bit like asking someone what "2+2" is and 
getting four as a reply. It's just a dead end and doesn't require further 
thinking. Okay, my analogy is crap, but I know where I'm at. Sadly, only I 
do, but hey ho... :o)

> As long as it isn't the Princess Di thing, then four black swans signify
> that some people will see anything significant about the stupid vapid
> manipulative actress.  I didn't like her, does it show?

You mean four black swans did it? And I thought it was Captain Plum in the 
library with a candlestick.

A xx

"dicon"  wrote in message 
news:vakSj.47116$B83.45747@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

>  The Celtic Legend of "The Children of Lir"?

<Googles> Finds:

"The children knew that to break the spell that they would have to hear the 
bell of a new God toll in their own land.
Mochua told them all about his new God and all about Saint Patrick who had 
brought his faith to their country.
The children became excited as they knew that this was the new God their 
stepmother had told them of."

That's certainly worthy of discussion here in terms of early indoctrination 
through folklore!

> The Swan of Tuanela from the Saga of Lemenkena ( sp) ?

Finds http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/omw/omw55.htm

"I will tell thee truly. Lemminkainen went to shoot the sacred bird, the 
Swan on Tuonela's River."

Okay, so another reference to a swan being a sacred bird. I say 'another'. 
The most intelligent webpage with swan symbolisms so far found is mostly 
related to Christianity:

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/legend01/swan.htm

...from which:

"In some countries, the swan is the image of deceit and hypocrisy because 
under its white feathers hides black flesh. Early Roman Christians noticed 
that the wealthy used swan's grease to hide wrinkles and associated the swan 
with those vain hypocrites who are like "whitewashed tombs which indeed 
appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead man's bones and all 
uncleanness" (Mt 23:27).
Some people saw in the swan an emblem of lust. A swan with a fish in its 
mouth represents the Devil snatching up and consuming the unwary Christian.
The swan is also an image of solitude, nobility, song, and grace. The red 
swan is a symbol of the sun and the black swan represents traitors, the 
occult, and the Devil."
...which leads me know to puzzle whether a black swan is a reversed symbol 
for those who 'do' the 'satan' thing, just as with upside down crucifixes 
(is that a word?)...

Thanks for the brain scratching! :o)

AC

"AC"  wrote in message
news:jnkSj.89231$jH5.10661@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
> news:Id6dnbzuLshVWoTVnZ2dnUVZ8vKdnZ2d@plusnet...
>
> > Uh, ok, but without context its hard to tell symbolism from incidental
> > imagery or scenery.  There runs a real danger of being locked (a lock
> > being
> > a focus on a particular aspect and exagerating its significance to the
> > detriment of other contextual information).
>
> Sure. That I accept. But it's a bit like asking someone what "2+2" is and
> getting four as a reply. It's just a dead end and doesn't require further
> thinking. Okay, my analogy is crap, but I know where I'm at. Sadly, only I
> do, but hey ho... :o)
>
> > As long as it isn't the Princess Di thing, then four black swans signify
> > that some people will see anything significant about the stupid vapid
> > manipulative actress.  I didn't like her, does it show?
>
> You mean four black swans did it?

It's at least as sane as some of Al-Fayed's other theories.
--
Rhiannon_s
I am me, this is now, we are here!

"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
news:ktadnemsI-jWQYTVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@plusnet...

>> You mean four black swans did it?
>
> It's at least as sane as some of Al-Fayed's other theories.

What? Like the one about Prince Philip being a Nazi? Only, ummm, that one 
has a basis in truth - given his upbringing and part of his youth being 
spent in Transylvania (which was probably Fayed's Dracula reference). Then 
there's Philip's sisters and their marriages to... ummm... senior Nazis.

One of his schools also became a place of education for Hitler Youth while 
he was there. So while it would be wrong for Fayed to say Philip was a Nazi, 
there is a historical basis for the assertion.

And there was the photo of him attending a Nazi funeral. Don't ask me to 
recall that from the top of my head, but it came out a couple of years ago 
and is in a book of some sort on the Royals and their supposed Nazi links.

Oooh. Weren't the Nazi's famous for occult symbols? Didn't they get some 
bizarre ideas from Blavatsky?

AC xx

"AC"  wrote in message
news:KC%Rj.17973$244.13959@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> <redelurk>
>
> Could one of my very knowledgeable fellow pagans explain to me the
symbology
> of four black swans?
>
> Many thanks....
>
> A xx

There was a bit of bell ringing (could just be tinnitus mind) about Norse
stuff and swans. Googled and came up with Swan Maidens being linked to
Valkyries - now this will certainly be white swans not black ones though.
Black swans are antipodean (we have, or had, at least one in the lakes at
Stewarts Park - Captain Cook's birthplace).
This page http://www.druidry.org/obod/lore/animal/swan.html has a little bit
on folklore and does mention that black swans are seen as the wives of the
Aboriginal Australian's All-Father.

I also found some pretty good refs on Wiki here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_emblems_and_popular_culture . Not
had chance to peruse properly bit it seems well referenced.

Any use?

Jo

>
>

"AC"  wrote in message
news:2dlSj.318$EH2.305@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
> news:ktadnemsI-jWQYTVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@plusnet...
>
> >> You mean four black swans did it?
> >
> > It's at least as sane as some of Al-Fayed's other theories.
>
> What? Like the one about Prince Philip [sinppetry]

...

...

???

...

...

Riiiiiiiiiiight, um, okaaaaaaaay.  I'll, be over here, um yes
doing....something, something over here.  Gotta go, bye.

"Jo B"  wrote in message 
news:8mlSj.5611$b4.2982@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

> This page http://www.druidry.org/obod/lore/animal/swan.html has a little 
> bit
> on folklore and does mention that black swans are seen as the wives of the
> Aboriginal Australian's All-Father.

Oh wow... that's a really good page with lots of stuff - thank you for 
finding and posting that.

Do forgive me if I don't make any comment on anything on it just yet a 
while - lots of reading and thinking and cross-referencing in that one. 
Thank you! <hug>

AC

"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
news:q66dnV-RiP_NfoTVnZ2dnUVZ8vSdnZ2d@plusnet...

> Riiiiiiiiiiight, um, okaaaaaaaay.  I'll, be over here, um yes
> doing....something, something over here.  Gotta go, bye.

(laughs) Don't blame me. Blame Oxford University Press - they published it!
http://www.play.com/Books/Books/4-/915911/-/Product.html?searchstring=royal+nazi&searchsource=0

AC xx

"AC"  wrote in message
news:izlSj.89237$jH5.29869@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Jo B"  wrote in message
> news:8mlSj.5611$b4.2982@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
> > This page http://www.druidry.org/obod/lore/animal/swan.html has a little
> > bit
> > on folklore and does mention that black swans are seen as the wives of
the
> > Aboriginal Australian's All-Father.
>
> Oh wow... that's a really good page with lots of stuff - thank you for
> finding and posting that.

Happy to oblige :-D

>
> Do forgive me if I don't make any comment on anything on it just yet a
> while - lots of reading and thinking and cross-referencing in that one.
> Thank you! <hug>

No probs - its keeping me away from doing what I'm actually supposed to be
doing. Anything to avoid proper work <BG>
Now... I'm sure I was looking at fire juggling as well ..... Definitely
wasn't doing any college work :-P

Jo

AC  wrote:


> So, I'm struggling to find anything academic or even significantly anecdotal
> apart from those same Google strange websites. It's just that, as you've
> seen, there appears to be something...

Don't forget that Google offers a Google scholars search. May not
provide anything significant for this, and anyway this mostly gives
references to journal articles but not the article itself. 


-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

"Daniel Cohen"  wrote in message 
news:1ig9oqf.5xvx3e139mykgN%danspam@f2s.com...

> Don't forget that Google offers a Google scholars search. May not
> provide anything significant for this, and anyway this mostly gives
> references to journal articles but not the article itself.

Oh, absolutely. I find it good for giving a good source text *sometimes*, 
then when you find that source material, their footnotes and references are 
generally the ideal. Multiplies the amount of reading n-fold, but often so 
much more worthwhile and satisfying than ever accepting facts without 
question.

AC

In article <IXgSj.89213$jH5.1961@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
 "AC"  wrote:

> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
> news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...
> 
> > What is the context of the swans, that might help?
> 
> Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on my 
> context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is any truth, 
> meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions made elsewhere. 
> It's all part of a big project I'm working on and this is a tiny aspect, but 
> I just want to be as accurate as I can be. I will, I promise, tell you off 
> group, but I don't want to influence anybody's answers as I know my context 
> will. Sorry to sound enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though 
> and it's all lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).

Wasn't there an old fairy tale about seven (or maybe nine) brothers 
transformed into swans, one of whom was black, and their seven (or maybe 
nine) sisters who had to go find them - except when the sexes of the 
transormees and seekers were reversed?

Granted, that's not four, but maybe it's a place to start looking.  
IIRC, the tale may have been Celtic, possibly Welsh, in origin.  Maybe 
it was collected in the Mabdi-whatsit.

<snip>

Blessed be,
Baird

Only just recalled one blakc swan reference.

Swan Lake!

Compare Odette and Odile.

I should have got that instantly as my friend Jan Henning has just
written a story based on Swan Lake, the Trocks, and King Ludwig.


-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

"AC"  wrote in message 
news:jnkSj.89231$jH5.10661@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
> news:Id6dnbzuLshVWoTVnZ2dnUVZ8vKdnZ2d@plusnet...
>
>> Uh, ok, but without context its hard to tell symbolism from incidental
>> imagery or scenery.  There runs a real danger of being locked (a lock 
>> being
>> a focus on a particular aspect and exagerating its significance to the
>> detriment of other contextual information).
>
> Sure. That I accept. But it's a bit like asking someone what "2+2" is and 
> getting four as a reply. It's just a dead end and doesn't require further 
> thinking. Okay, my analogy is crap, but I know where I'm at. Sadly, only I 
> do, but hey ho... :o)
>
>> As long as it isn't the Princess Di thing, then four black swans signify
>> that some people will see anything significant about the stupid vapid
>> manipulative actress.  I didn't like her, does it show?
>
> You mean four black swans did it? And I thought it was Captain Plum in the 
> library with a candlestick.

No, it was Colonel Mustard in the Library with vitamin pills.
( borrowed from a cartoon ina noose paper )

Jackdaw

AC wrote:
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
> news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...
>
>> What is the context of the swans, that might help?
>
> Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on my
> context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is any
> truth, meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions made
> elsewhere. It's all part of a big project I'm working on and this is
> a tiny aspect, but I just want to be as accurate as I can be. I will,
> I promise, tell you off group, but I don't want to influence
> anybody's answers as I know my context will. Sorry to sound
> enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though and it's all
> lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).
> I've found a reference on that trust bastion of fact Wikipedia (ha
> ha!!). Problem is, the footnote lacks anything traceable...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_emblems_and_popular_culture
>
> "The taking of Black Swans to Europe in the 18th and early 19th
> centuries brought the birds into contact with another aspect of
> European mythology: the attribution of sinister relationships between
> the devil and black-coloured animals such as a black cat. Black Swans
> were considered to be a witch's familiar, and often chased away or
> killed by superstitious folk. This may explain why Black Swans have
> never established a sizeable presence as feral animals in Europe or
> North America.[10]" - 10: ^ Scott, op. cit.: 200
>
> Yes, because that reference helps guide to the source material... not.
>
> So, I'm struggling to find anything academic or even significantly
> anecdotal apart from those same Google strange websites. It's just
> that, as you've seen, there appears to be something...

*White* swans are a symbol of fidelity, marital faithfulness and everlasting 
love. It would make sense, then, for black swans to be a *corruption* of 
that.

Yowie

Baird Stafford wrote:
> In article <IXgSj.89213$jH5.1961@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> "AC"  wrote:
>
>> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
>> news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...
>>
>>> What is the context of the swans, that might help?
>>
>> Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on
>> my context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is
>> any truth, meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions
>> made elsewhere. It's all part of a big project I'm working on and
>> this is a tiny aspect, but I just want to be as accurate as I can
>> be. I will, I promise, tell you off group, but I don't want to
>> influence anybody's answers as I know my context will. Sorry to
>> sound enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though and it's
>> all lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).
>
> Wasn't there an old fairy tale about seven (or maybe nine) brothers
> transformed into swans, one of whom was black, and their seven (or
> maybe nine) sisters who had to go find them - except when the sexes
> of the transormees and seekers were reversed?

Hans Christian Andersen's _The Wild Swans_?

http://hca.gilead.org.il/wild_swa.html

Yowie

On Thu, 01 May 2008 14:23:11 GMT, "AC"
 blethered:

>
>"rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
>news:Id6dnbzuLshVWoTVnZ2dnUVZ8vKdnZ2d@plusnet...
>
>> Uh, ok, but without context its hard to tell symbolism from incidental
>> imagery or scenery.  There runs a real danger of being locked (a lock 
>> being
>> a focus on a particular aspect and exagerating its significance to the
>> detriment of other contextual information).
>
>Sure. That I accept. But it's a bit like asking someone what "2+2" is and 
>getting four as a reply. It's just a dead end and doesn't require further 
>thinking. Okay, my analogy is crap, but I know where I'm at. Sadly, only I 
>do, but hey ho... :o)
>

It looks to me like you're fishing vaguely for someone to say
something along the lines of 'Oh, four black swans, those are a symbol
of [blah] as mentioned in [doodle] and associated with [thingmy]'. It
also looks to me as if black swans are not obviously strongly
associated with anything in particular apart from Cygnus atratus[1].

>> As long as it isn't the Princess Di thing, then four black swans signify
>> that some people will see anything significant about the stupid vapid
>> manipulative actress.  I didn't like her, does it show?
>
>You mean four black swans did it? And I thought it was Captain Plum in the 
>library with a candlestick.
>
>

The swans pretended to be underpass pillars, see. Then they, well,
they pounced. The swine. Er, swan.

[1] Although while I was googling for its posh name, this is the first
link that appeared:
http://protohuman.blogspot.com/2006/11/black-swan.html so apparently
it has other meaning for someone. :-)


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson

"AC"  wrote in message 
news:2dlSj.318$EH2.305@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
> news:ktadnemsI-jWQYTVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@plusnet...
>
>>> You mean four black swans did it?
>>
>> It's at least as sane as some of Al-Fayed's other theories.
>
> What? Like the one about Prince Philip being a Nazi? Only, ummm, that one 
> has a basis in truth - given his upbringing and part of his youth being 
> spent in Transylvania (which was probably Fayed's Dracula reference). Then 
> there's Philip's sisters and their marriages to... ummm... senior Nazis.
>
> One of his schools also became a place of education for Hitler Youth while 
> he was there. So while it would be wrong for Fayed to say Philip was a 
> Nazi, there is a historical basis for the assertion.
>
> And there was the photo of him attending a Nazi funeral. Don't ask me to 
> recall that from the top of my head, but it came out a couple of years ago 
> and is in a book of some sort on the Royals and their supposed Nazi links.
>
> Oooh. Weren't the Nazi's famous for occult symbols? Didn't they get some 
> bizarre ideas from Blavatsky?

The Royals had no problem with Hitler, mainly because he was preferable to 
Stalin. The esoterics, now, are more complicated. Philip was Orthodox, and 
had to convert to Anglican before he could marry an English queen - but she 
was Queen in her own right, and he had to relinquish his patronym. That's 
why the Royals are Windsors and not Mountbattens. But the males are still 
circumcised by mohel ... when you get to the top of the pyramid, paraphasing 
Heinlein, everyone sleeps with everyone else.

Or, of course, gets in a flat panic because it's all a big Jewish Masonic 
conspiracy. Which it probably is - apart from the Normans, and the Muslims, 
etc.

Jani, who thinks the Illuminati membership is getting a tad crowded.

PS - no evidence, so far, for black swans in European myth. I'm still 
looking, though.

"Halla"  wrote in message 
news:tq7k14lm3e5q9rkmais8a1omouqq6vu3c6@4ax.com...

> It looks to me like you're fishing vaguely for someone to say
> something along the lines of 'Oh, four black swans, those are a symbol
> of [blah] as mentioned in [doodle] and associated with [thingmy]'. It
> also looks to me as if black swans are not obviously strongly
> associated with anything in particular apart from Cygnus atratus[1].

Well, I'll ignore the tone. People are kindly posting link after link which 
contain some really interesting things, and the evidence is - particularly 
from the druidry link posted - that there is indeed significant symbolism so 
I do wonder why you would say that. I won't try to guess.

AC

"Daniel Cohen"  wrote in message 
news:1ig9zda.bt0l4juas6mcN%danspam@f2s.com...
> Only just recalled one blakc swan reference.
>
> Swan Lake!
>
> Compare Odette and Odile.
>
> I should have got that instantly as my friend Jan Henning has just
> written a story based on Swan Lake, the Trocks, and King Ludwig.

Swan Lake is interesting because I keep finding that - as obviously I would. 
There's a few questions that come from it. The biggest one is perhaps the 
dumbest in some people's eyes, but I'll show faith in my fellow pagans 
believing that there's nothing wrong in having a curious mind and ask it 
anyway...

Across the board, across all faiths and for all time, it appears to me that 
mythology has played a big part in faith. I could pick any as an example, 
but I think the least controversial example to give would be Greek 
Mythology. If we take the Greek myths as an example, their wonderful stories 
are (all?) rite of passage symbols. Some people take them in different ways, 
but the rite of passage stuff is pretty much evident.

My dumb question is when does any story become one embraced as having 
relevance to any given faith? I'm not expressing that well. Ummmm.... the 
Greek myths are not all about Gods and Goddesses. There are plenty about 
'heroes'. There are plenty showing interaction between human heroes and the 
deities.

My clumsy question that I can't quite phrase is when does a story become 
spiritual?

If we take Swan Lake, it isn't - to my mind - a spiritual story or embraced 
by people from a spiritual background. I might be wrong. But assuming that 
Swan Lake isn't spiritually significant to people of any faith background, 
what is the difference between Swan Lake and the Greek Myths, Swan Lake and 
stories about the Green Man, Swan Lake and a bible story?

This is probably a really dumb question, but it's the one that is at the 
forefront of my mind when I look through all of the material which people 
have kindly helped me by posting. I've never been big 'into' mythology or 
stories about the Gods and Goddesses, so I hope people excuse the naivety 
and embrace the curiosity being evidence of a desire to expand the mind and 
ways of thinking...

AC

On Thu, 01 May 2008 16:23:03 -0400, Baird Stafford
 blethered:

>In article <IXgSj.89213$jH5.1961@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> "AC"  wrote:
>
>> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
>> news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...
>> 
>> > What is the context of the swans, that might help?
>> 
>> Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on my 
>> context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is any truth, 
>> meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions made elsewhere. 
>> It's all part of a big project I'm working on and this is a tiny aspect, but 
>> I just want to be as accurate as I can be. I will, I promise, tell you off 
>> group, but I don't want to influence anybody's answers as I know my context 
>> will. Sorry to sound enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though 
>> and it's all lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).
>
>Wasn't there an old fairy tale about seven (or maybe nine) brothers 
>transformed into swans, one of whom was black, and their seven (or maybe 
>nine) sisters who had to go find them - except when the sexes of the 
>transormees and seekers were reversed?
>
I recall a tale about brother princes (seven, possibly) who were
transformed into swans by a wicked stepmother (of course) and their
sister had to live in a cave without speaking and weave them all
nettle shirts to cure them except another (unrelated) prince saw her
and decided to snatch her away from her dreary cave just as she was on
the last shirt, so one brother, the youngest, (of course) ended up
with a wing instead of an arm because she couldn't finish his shirt.
There was other stuff too, but is it that sort of story?

>Granted, that's not four, but maybe it's a place to start looking.  
>IIRC, the tale may have been Celtic, possibly Welsh, in origin.  Maybe 
>it was collected in the Mabdi-whatsit.

I've a sneaking suspicion I'm remembering the above tale from one of
those 'gold storybook' type of things, so it's not much use as a
source. Beautifully illustrated though. <g>


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson

On Fri, 2 May 2008 07:52:29 +1000, "Yowie"
 blethered:

>Baird Stafford wrote:
>> In article <IXgSj.89213$jH5.1961@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>> "AC"  wrote:
>>
>>> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message
>>> news:6YKdnW-ql_3KBIXVRVnyiQA@plusnet...
>>>
>>>> What is the context of the swans, that might help?
>>>
>>> Ummmm... if you will extend me the liberty, can I just hold back on
>>> my context for a second? I just want to establish whether there is
>>> any truth, meaning, or superstition attached to validate assertions
>>> made elsewhere. It's all part of a big project I'm working on and
>>> this is a tiny aspect, but I just want to be as accurate as I can
>>> be. I will, I promise, tell you off group, but I don't want to
>>> influence anybody's answers as I know my context will. Sorry to
>>> sound enigmatic. It will make sense when I tell you though and it's
>>> all lacking in sinisterness (if that is a word?).
>>
>> Wasn't there an old fairy tale about seven (or maybe nine) brothers
>> transformed into swans, one of whom was black, and their seven (or
>> maybe nine) sisters who had to go find them - except when the sexes
>> of the transormees and seekers were reversed?
>
>Hans Christian Andersen's _The Wild Swans_?
>
>http://hca.gilead.org.il/wild_swa.html

Eleven! That's the one I was half-remembering. And a leaf, and walnut
juice and frogs. Yep. :-)


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson

On Fri, 2 May 2008 02:36:07 +0100, "Jani" 
blethered:

>
>"AC"  wrote in message 
>news:2dlSj.318$EH2.305@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>>
>> "rhiannon s"  wrote in message 
>> news:ktadnemsI-jWQYTVnZ2dnUVZ8v6dnZ2d@plusnet...
>>
>>>> You mean four black swans did it?
>>>
>>> It's at least as sane as some of Al-Fayed's other theories.
>>
>> What? Like the one about Prince Philip being a Nazi? Only, ummm, that one 
>> has a basis in truth - given his upbringing and part of his youth being 
>> spent in Transylvania (which was probably Fayed's Dracula reference). Then 
>> there's Philip's sisters and their marriages to... ummm... senior Nazis.
>>
>> One of his schools also became a place of education for Hitler Youth while 
>> he was there. So while it would be wrong for Fayed to say Philip was a 
>> Nazi, there is a historical basis for the assertion.
>>
>> And there was the photo of him attending a Nazi funeral. Don't ask me to 
>> recall that from the top of my head, but it came out a couple of years ago 
>> and is in a book of some sort on the Royals and their supposed Nazi links.
>>
>> Oooh. Weren't the Nazi's famous for occult symbols? Didn't they get some 
>> bizarre ideas from Blavatsky?
>
>The Royals had no problem with Hitler, mainly because he was preferable to 
>Stalin. The esoterics, now, are more complicated. Philip was Orthodox, and 
>had to convert to Anglican before he could marry an English queen - but she 
>was Queen in her own right, and he had to relinquish his patronym. That's 
>why the Royals are Windsors and not Mountbattens. But the males are still 
>circumcised by mohel ... 

Well I never. 

>when you get to the top of the pyramid, paraphasing 
>Heinlein, everyone sleeps with everyone else.
>
>Or, of course, gets in a flat panic because it's all a big Jewish Masonic 
>conspiracy. Which it probably is - apart from the Normans, and the Muslims, 
>etc.

<g>

>
>Jani, who thinks the Illuminati membership is getting a tad crowded.
>

<g> More a case of asking 'OK, now who here *doesn't* have links to
some semi-mythical quasi-religious secret organisation?'? 

>PS - no evidence, so far, for black swans in European myth. I'm still 
>looking, though.

Where are black swans from, originally? The birds, I mean. We get mute
and thingy swans in Europe, I know that, but I don't think the black
ones are from here are they?


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson

On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:07:07 GMT, "AC"
 blethered:

>
>"Halla"  wrote in message 
>news:tq7k14lm3e5q9rkmais8a1omouqq6vu3c6@4ax.com...
>
>> It looks to me like you're fishing vaguely for someone to say
>> something along the lines of 'Oh, four black swans, those are a symbol
>> of [blah] as mentioned in [doodle] and associated with [thingmy]'. It
>> also looks to me as if black swans are not obviously strongly
>> associated with anything in particular apart from Cygnus atratus[1].
>
>Well, I'll ignore the tone. People are kindly posting link after link which 
>contain some really interesting things, and the evidence is - particularly 
>from the druidry link posted - that there is indeed significant symbolism so 
>I do wonder why you would say that. I won't try to guess.

Suit yourself. I don't know if I'd like you to anyway, since you have
guessed incorrectly about some tone or other that I didn't put in my
previous reply. You seriously mean that doing this sort of word
association with no context is *not* fishing? 


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson

"Halla"  wrote in message 
news:ietl149rbljv5ejotlb1tkcquor1439srn@4ax.com...

> Suit yourself. I don't know if I'd like you to anyway, since you have
> guessed incorrectly about some tone or other that I didn't put in my
> previous reply. You seriously mean that doing this sort of word
> association with no context is *not* fishing?

Apply whatever word you wish. My view is that people have different 
aproaches to life, particularly in regard to the way people learn. Asking a 
question is a good way of learning, provided one then goes and researches 
the answer. If a man can be condemned for wanting to learn and expand their 
knowledge, then so be it. Personally, I don't see why anybody would want or 
need to interrupt and apply words with negative connotations to somebdy's 
desire to learn about something. But then, as I say, everybody is different.

I would hope that, before replying, you would note my refraining from 
directing any words with negative connotations or implications in your 
direction.

I would also hope that you would acknowledge that plenty of people are 
replying with kindness and offering up a lot of suggestions for me to 
explore - some of which people are doing their own researching on my behalf 
in order to be generous enough to assist.

I cannot see a problem with any of this, so I do not know why you chose to 
post your original message with negative connotations. Maybe you could 
explain why you chose to respond as you did, as I am sure I do not 
understand.

AC

[snip]
>
> Where are black swans from, originally? The birds, I mean. We get mute
> and thingy swans in Europe, I know that, but I don't think the black
> ones are from here are they?

See down thread  - Australasia originally. Australia has one type and New
Zealand used to have another until they got hunted to extinction. We have em
at the Captain Cook birthplace park (Stewarts Park) just up the road from
us.

Scuse me while I get the kitten off whatever she shouldn't be playing with.

Jo

"AC"  wrote in message 
news:izlSj.89237$jH5.29869@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Jo B"  wrote in message 
> news:8mlSj.5611$b4.2982@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
>> This page http://www.druidry.org/obod/lore/animal/swan.html has a little 
>> bit
>> on folklore and does mention that black swans are seen as the wives of 
>> the
>> Aboriginal Australian's All-Father.
>
> Oh wow... that's a really good page with lots of stuff - thank you for 
> finding and posting that.

Oops - I saw that one but didn't bother posting it, because I thought you 
wanted four black swans specifically, not swans-in-myth generally :(

By the way, the mysterious Scott reference on wiki is probably Peter Scott's 
World Atlas of Birds.

Jani

On Fri, 02 May 2008 12:05:55 GMT, "AC"
 blethered:

>
>"Halla"  wrote in message 
>news:ietl149rbljv5ejotlb1tkcquor1439srn@4ax.com...
>
>> Suit yourself. I don't know if I'd like you to anyway, since you have
>> guessed incorrectly about some tone or other that I didn't put in my
>> previous reply. You seriously mean that doing this sort of word
>> association with no context is *not* fishing?
>
>Apply whatever word you wish. 

My thanks.

>My view is that people have different 
>aproaches to life, particularly in regard to the way people learn. Asking a 
>question is a good way of learning, provided one then goes and researches 
>the answer. If a man can be condemned for wanting to learn and expand their 
>knowledge, then so be it. Personally, I don't see why anybody would want or 
>need to interrupt and apply words with negative connotations to somebdy's 
>desire to learn about something. But then, as I say, everybody is different.
>
>I would hope that, before replying, you would note my refraining from 
>directing any words with negative connotations or implications in your 
>direction.

Well, no I don't see that. 

>
>I would also hope that you would acknowledge that plenty of people are 
>replying with kindness and offering up a lot of suggestions for me to 
>explore - some of which people are doing their own researching on my behalf 
>in order to be generous enough to assist.

Now I'm puzzled - why do I need to acknowledge that?

>
>I cannot see a problem with any of this, so I do not know why you chose to 
>post your original message with negative connotations. Maybe you could 
>explain why you chose to respond as you did, as I am sure I do not 
>understand.

I did *not* post anything with negative connotations[1]. If you read
some into my post I cannot very well do anything to stop you, now can
I?

[1] Although I will admit that this is about intention, perhaps some
introduced themselves through poor word choice on my part.


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson

"Halla"  wrote in message 
news:hicn1452qok87uq2j54nv40cp29qaseq2r@4ax.com...

> I did *not* post anything with negative connotations[1]. If you read
> some into my post I cannot very well do anything to stop you, now can
> I?
>
> [1] Although I will admit that this is about intention, perhaps some
> introduced themselves through poor word choice on my part.

FWIW, I didn't see anything particularly negative about "fishing"; seems 
like a perfectly good description of that kind of de-contextualised 
question.

Although, I'm now not entirely sure what information the OP was looking 
for - all the sites posted, while very interesting, don't seem to have any 
information on the symbology of four black swans, which was the original 
query. Maybe it's just me, but if someone asks me to research X, I go and 
look for X, not Y and Z ;)

Jani

"Jani"  wrote in message 
news:fvh74u$2qpt$1@energise.enta.net...

> FWIW, I didn't see anything particularly negative about "fishing"; seems 
> like a perfectly good description of that kind of de-contextualised 
> question.

Wars start when people decide to start refereeing exchanges of views.

> Although, I'm now not entirely sure what information the OP was looking 
> for - all the sites posted, while very interesting, don't seem to have any 
> information on the symbology of four black swans, which was the original 
> query. Maybe it's just me, but if someone asks me to research X, I go and 
> look for X, not Y and Z ;)

Therein, therefore, I have my perfectly good answer which is that, in the 
opinion and totality of knowledge of the small number of people posting to 
uk.religion.pagan who are prepared to post a response, there is absolutely 
no known significance - occult or otherwise - to four black swans. If there 
is any significance, it is so obscure as to not be known to the people 
responding.

However, whilst there is no occult significance to four black swans per se, 
there is a small amount of symbology attached to black swans, obscure though 
it may be. That said, there is a lot of symbology attached to white swans, 
so there is a question of reversed meanings.

Now I think that uk.religion.pagan posters who have posted answers have been 
fantastic at helping answer my original question as I could not write that 
before posting the question. To those who have helped, I'm utterly grateful.

The context of the question was not neccesary for me to reach that 
conclusion. That said, the conclusion is not definitive as it is only a 
conclusion based on the totality of knowledge of those willing to post a 
response in a small reaching newsgroup.

So, I can now say in my writing that the following statement - the context 
that bothers one person and a referee - is probably pants:

"Black swans are profound occult symbols used in rituals"

To which I can now write: "there is no known evidence supporting such an 
assertion" and in that, my goal is achieved. Again, I'm grateful to those 
who gave help freely without judging my wish to learn or labelling my 
deliberate choice to hold back the context.

I can continue to look up those paths of query opened up by others which may 
still provide material which has been misunderstood by the author of the 
sentence I am looking to critique.

I hope that's all okay by everyone?

Sheesh!

No wonder so many of the old regulars only lurk in this newsgroup. It seems 
to have maintained aspects of the attititude shift that drove out most of 
the old community. That said, there appears to be a lot of nice new faces, 
and I will feel confident asking questions of such people again in the 
future. I also have an indicator of who to say "internet attitude" about. 
Just because people have a keyboard and define as pagan doesn't make them 
hospitable to those desiring to expand their knowledge. Which is a shame.

Anyway, 'an it harm none'...

AC

"AC"  wrote in message 
news:WL3Tj.106895$Ff4.88687@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Jani"  wrote in message 
> news:fvh74u$2qpt$1@energise.enta.net...
>
>> FWIW, I didn't see anything particularly negative about "fishing"; seems 
>> like a perfectly good description of that kind of de-contextualised 
>> question.
>
> Wars start when people decide to start refereeing exchanges of views.

Hello, *public* newsgroup?

How else would you describe the terms in which your original question was 
couched? Incidentally, I don't have any particular problem with that kind of 
'fishing', and probably Halla doesn't, either. I saw your subsequent post, 
which implied that you didn't want to give clues in case it prejudiced the 
responses. I don't have any problem with that, either.

>
>> Although, I'm now not entirely sure what information the OP was looking 
>> for - all the sites posted, while very interesting, don't seem to have 
>> any information on the symbology of four black swans, which was the 
>> original query. Maybe it's just me, but if someone asks me to research X, 
>> I go and look for X, not Y and Z ;)
>
> Therein, therefore, I have my perfectly good answer which is that, in the 
> opinion and totality of knowledge of the small number of people posting to 
> uk.religion.pagan who are prepared to post a response, there is absolutely 
> no known significance - occult or otherwise - to four black swans. If 
> there is any significance, it is so obscure as to not be known to the 
> people responding.

Yes, that was the conclusion I drew from my own research. Although I'd 
include a caveat along the lines that there *may* be symbology which is 
known to the posters, but not in a context which can be posted to public 
Usenet. I'm sure you've considered that possibility, though :)


>
> However, whilst there is no occult significance to four black swans per 
> se, there is a small amount of symbology attached to black swans, obscure 
> though it may be. That said, there is a lot of symbology attached to white 
> swans, so there is a question of reversed meanings.

Indeed, and that's an interesting tack in itself.

>
> Now I think that uk.religion.pagan posters who have posted answers have 
> been fantastic at helping answer my original question as I could not write 
> that before posting the question. To those who have helped, I'm utterly 
> grateful.
>
> The context of the question was not neccesary for me to reach that 
> conclusion. That said, the conclusion is not definitive as it is only a 
> conclusion based on the totality of knowledge of those willing to post a 
> response in a small reaching newsgroup.
>
> So, I can now say in my writing that the following statement - the context 
> that bothers one person and a referee - is probably pants:
>
> "Black swans are profound occult symbols used in rituals"
>
> To which I can now write: "there is no known evidence supporting such an 
> assertion" and in that, my goal is achieved. Again, I'm grateful to those 
> who gave help freely without judging my wish to learn or labelling my 
> deliberate choice to hold back the context.

It was, to be honest, fairly obvious that this was a dot pagan snark sorta 
thing ;)

>
> I can continue to look up those paths of query opened up by others which 
> may still provide material which has been misunderstood by the author of 
> the sentence I am looking to critique.

Well, if someone's holding forth about "occult ritual symbols", they're 
probably talking about "teh occult" rather than paganism.
>
> I hope that's all okay by everyone?
>
> Sheesh!
>
> No wonder so many of the old regulars only lurk in this newsgroup. It 
> seems to have maintained aspects of the attititude shift that drove out 
> most of the old community. That said, there appears to be a lot of nice 
> new faces, and I will feel confident asking questions of such people again 
> in the future. I also have an indicator of who to say "internet attitude" 
> about. Just because people have a keyboard and define as pagan doesn't 
> make them hospitable to those desiring to expand their knowledge. Which is 
> a shame.

*blink* Halla said you were 'fishing', which you were. I wondered why you 
were so appreciative about Net/Web sources which *didn't answer your 
question at all*. Why are you so flouncey about that?
>
> Anyway, 'an it harm none'...

Oh, you're Wiccan? Presumably you know better than to assume that a reversed 
symbol is nothing more than a reversal, then :)

Jani

On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:28:15 GMT, "AC"
 blethered:

>
>"Daniel Cohen"  wrote in message 
>news:1ig9zda.bt0l4juas6mcN%danspam@f2s.com...
>> Only just recalled one blakc swan reference.
>>
>> Swan Lake!
>>
>> Compare Odette and Odile.
>>
>> I should have got that instantly as my friend Jan Henning has just
>> written a story based on Swan Lake, the Trocks, and King Ludwig.
>
>Swan Lake is interesting because I keep finding that - as obviously I would. 
>There's a few questions that come from it. The biggest one is perhaps the 
>dumbest in some people's eyes, but I'll show faith in my fellow pagans 
>believing that there's nothing wrong in having a curious mind and ask it 
>anyway...
>
>Across the board, across all faiths and for all time, it appears to me that 
>mythology has played a big part in faith. 

Well OK, what do you mean by 'faith' to start with? And 'mythology',
come to that? 

Myths explain how the world is as it is, don't they? (Or, didn't they
- do we still make new myths today, other than the urban kind?) It
would make sense then that a myth would be intimately bound to a god
and its following, the myth would refer to the god, the people hearing
it would therefore perhaps develop a faith in that god and turn the
myth into something more formal and unchangeable as they write rules
for their faith to make it into a religion.

>I could pick any as an example, 
>but I think the least controversial example to give would be Greek 
>Mythology. If we take the Greek myths as an example, their wonderful stories 
>are (all?) rite of passage symbols. 

I'll take your word for it, I've never known much about Greek myth.
:-) 

>Some people take them in different ways, 
>but the rite of passage stuff is pretty much evident.

I do remember hearing from here in the past that some are evidence of
an expanding and conquering empire, it can be read that the original
Greek gods rolled over the land gathering up others katamari-style. 

>
>My dumb question is when does any story become one embraced as having 
>relevance to any given faith? I'm not expressing that well. Ummmm.... the 
>Greek myths are not all about Gods and Goddesses. There are plenty about 
>'heroes'. There are plenty showing interaction between human heroes and the 
>deities.

Hmm, interesting - I'd have thought that the stories and the faiths
grew up together, style of thing. 

>
>My clumsy question that I can't quite phrase is when does a story become 
>spiritual?

Do they? :-) Hate to ask, but... what do you mean by 'spriritual'? <g>

>
>If we take Swan Lake, it isn't - to my mind - a spiritual story or embraced 
>by people from a spiritual background. I might be wrong. But assuming that 
>Swan Lake isn't spiritually significant to people of any faith background, 
>what is the difference between Swan Lake and the Greek Myths, Swan Lake and 
>stories about the Green Man, Swan Lake and a bible story?

I don't know the story of Swan Lake that well - it doesn't have any
godlike figures in it though, does it? Is that the difference?

>
>This is probably a really dumb question, but it's the one that is at the 
>forefront of my mind when I look through all of the material which people 
>have kindly helped me by posting. I've never been big 'into' mythology or 
>stories about the Gods and Goddesses, so I hope people excuse the naivety 
>and embrace the curiosity being evidence of a desire to expand the mind and 
>ways of thinking...

In my experience that desire doesn't matter so much as the practice -
hang around here long enough and one will find one's mind expanded
whether one is willing or not. <g> In other words, folks here tend to
be equipped with Crowbars of Enlightenment.


-- 
Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune.
 -Elizabeth Watson