"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"  wrote in 
message news:x1ELj.38918$h65.2019@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Willy"  wrote in message 
> news:vKvLj.2476$GE1.2305@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"  wrote in 
>> message news:entLj.2151$B83.1674@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>>>
>>> "- .. -- Tim .-."  wrote in message 
>>> news:u_CdnZZGJeN0TGDanZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Willy"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:Y9fLj.2469$%41.2003@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"  wrote in 
>>>>> message news:m49Lj.47738$kN5.30229@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>>>>>> Willy typed:
>>>>>>>yet scripture does nothing to condemn slavery as it was a full 
>>>>>>>accepted lifestyle at that point in history.  Yet today, we all KNOW 
>>>>>>>better,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Man never knows 'BETTER' then God, He knows best, and He does not, 
>>>>>> and neither did Christ, or any of the Inspired Apostles condemn or 
>>>>>> even forbid Christians to be slave owners.
>>>>>> If  God hated slavery, He would have made it very plain, it was a sin 
>>>>>> and immoral, but He didn't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the contrary, Christian slaves were commanded to work even harder 
>>>>>> for their brother masters, as if they were working for Christ 
>>>>>> himself. And masters were never commanded to release their slaves, 
>>>>>> just to treat them properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is certainly condemned as sin and immoral, are all acts of 
>>>>>> adultery, including remarriages after divorce, and Hetro and 
>>>>>> Homo'Sodomite fornication, and those who commit such acts are to be 
>>>>>> excommunicated from the churches forthwith.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff...
>>>>>>
>>>>> I can't believe you're so blinded by your own foolish dogma to say 
>>>>> that God approves of slavery.
>>>>>
>>>>> I won't waste my time correcting the foolishness of your statements.
>>>>> Willy
>>>
>>> You cannot correct what is true, it's high time you started doing the 
>>> Daily Readings, you would have read all about the Apostolic approval of 
>>> slavery by now. I left out the passages relating to it, to see just how 
>>> much you know your Bible, and 1st Century Christian teaching, it seems 
>>> it is not very much, thus the foolishness of your reply.
>>>
>>>> We should go and capture Jeff and keep him as a slave,
>>>
>>> You could never afford my price, Tim....{;o;}
>>>
>>>>since he believes that is acceptable.
>>>
>>> 1st Century Christian teaching well accepts it, no sin in owning slaves 
>>> nor any unrighteousness.
>>> Not so hetro and homo fornication that is a real sinful and wicked 
>>> no-no.
>>>
>>> Jeff...
>>
>>
>> First century folk
>
> I am talking about faithful Christians, not 'folk' .
>
>>accepted slavery, but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>
> No-one can know better then Inspired Paul and the Apostles who where 
> personally ordained by Christ to teach us Gentiles.
> Their teaching is what we are to follow, for theirs has the full approval 
> of both God and Christ.
>
> "The one who listens to you, listens to me. The one who rejects you, 
> rejects me. And rejecting me is the same as rejecting God, who sent me." 
> Luke 10:16 (MSG)
>
> "15 But the Lord said, "Go and do what I say. For Paul is my chosen 
> instrument to take my message to the nations and before kings, as well as 
> to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer 
> for me."  Acts 9:15-16 (TLB)
>
>
> Paul, and Peter obviously with Christ's consent approved of slavery for 
> all brethren of the Lord as the following passages show.
>
> So, what does the Scripture have to say on this subject ?
> Cols. 4:1 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly,
> knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." (RSV)
>
> Eph. 6:8 "Knowing that whatever good any one does, he will
> receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
> 9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he 
> who
> is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no 
> partiality
> with him.
>
> Cols. 3:22 "Slaves, obey in everything those who are your
> earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness 
> of
> heart, fearing the Lord.
> 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men,
> 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your
> reward; you are serving the Lord Christ."
>
> Titus 2:9 "Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to
> give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory,
> 10 nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in
> everything they may adorn the doctrine of God."
>
> 1 Peter 2:18 "Servants, be submissive to your masters with
> all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing.
> 19 For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering
> unjustly.
> 20 For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you
> take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it
> patiently, you have God's approval."
>
> 1 Timothy 6:1 "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery
> regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and 
> the
> teaching may not be defamed.
>
> 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground
> that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those
> who benefit by their service are believers and beloved.  Teach and urge
> these duties.
>
> 3 If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of
> our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness,
> 4 he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving
> for controversy and for disputes about words." (RSV)
>
> See how Paul warns about anyone objecting to all of this.
> "If any one teaches otherwise....he is puffed up with conceit, he knows
> nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about
> words."
>
> Now why would Paul pen such unkind 'insults' about certain people who 
> refuse
> to accept the duties of Christian slaves and masters if God does not 
> approve
> of slavery?
>
>
>> First century folk believed women were little more than livestock, but 
>> today WE KNOW BETTER.
>
> First century folk may have believed it, but not 1st Century Christians.
> They knew much better even then. They were never to be treated like 
> livestock.
>
>> First century folk often believed that illness was the result of sin, but 
>> today WE KNOW BETTER.
>
> No! sometimes God's sends illnesses to punish us and to curb our excesses.
> Read your Bible for once.....
>
>> First century folk believe anything outside of cultural norms and 
>> cultural sex was sin, but today WE KNOW BETTER.
>
> Really, look at the result, over 40% of babies born in Britain today are 
> BASTARDS!
> Sexual transmitted diseases are at all time levels.
>
> Adultery, fornication, the abomination of Homosexuality, paedophilia are 
> all at all time records.
> If that is knowing better, then some people need their brains testing.
>
>> Unfortunately, you have not yet been clued into the knowledge and higher 
>> critiques / studies of the scripture.
>
> There is no higher critiques then what the NT teachers, well for fiathful 
> Christians anyway.
> Do you call yourself a Christian, Will?
>
> Jeff...
>
>

I certainly am a Christian, and am very active in the Christian community.

With that said however, I find it deeply troublesome that you must wrap 
yourself in the historical teachings of 2000 years ago, and that WITHOUT 
CONSIDERING the bias, or socially accepted customs, or simply the fact that 
scripture WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, with the best of intention, yet often filled 
with bad judgment and error.

We know better than to take another human being and force them into slavery. 
We KNOW that women are as intelligent (if not more so) than men, and are 
often great leaders, and perhaps Presidents!!!  (can you say Hillary)lol

And we know that Paul, in all his obvious misgivings and contradictions, was 
at the same time filled with good intent.

But to take a literary document (the Bible) and try to build an absolute set 
of standards beyond the 10 commandments cannot stand the test of time and 
the ever evolving world in which we live.

I've observed your rants regarding gay folk.  Homosexuality was not a known 
"condition" during bible times.  The word "homosexual" simply did not exist, 
nor did that condition exist under any other name.  Almost all the scripture 
you quote had nothing whatsoever to do with what we think of as being gay in 
our culture.  It was totally and completely different at that time, and 
there are many historical documents that suggest that in fact it was a 
completely accepted human situation, normal to the extent that it simply 
didn't involve discussion, nor a comment from the church (apostolic group), 
nor even a "name".  What do you think the "prostitutes at the temple" were 
all about?  Do you believe it was women hanging around for paid sex???  If 
you do, then I suggest you check your history.

The scriptures referral to sexual sin almost universally speaks of  a more 
aggressive and hostile action, most likely by heterosexual males who chose 
to violate men by forcing them to have sex.  In their society, for a male to 
force another male to do anything was strictly forbidden, and the ultimate 
slap in the face, and even more so to violate him in a forced sexual act.

If faithful Christians are supposed to accept and embrace slavery, then I 
would quickly divorce myself from that identity, but thankfully, most of us 
have grown, and through the historical experience of our elders, we have 
come to realize that slavery by any name is a violation of another human 
being.  And that, in my opinion, would be a sin.

Willy