Hi Again,

As I progress my journey in Christianity, so I find I have more questions.

If salvation is dependant upon our repentence from sin and faith in 
Christ, then what happens to those people who have never heard the word, 
or were given the chance to hear the word?

If God is a just God and either allows other paths through other 
religions according to the persons teachings, or is judged accordingly 
according to their deeds, thoughts and words, then why is it more 
preferable to be Christian over other religions?

I am trying to read and understand Romans at the moment, and it seems 
even if one is Christian, with faith in Christ, it is no excuse to still 
live a life of sin. So it does seem deeds are more important still.

So Im really confused, and Im probably biting off way too much more than 
I can chew, but if I don't ask these questions I'll go stir crazy.

My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites suggests 
that...

Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence, the 
world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But continuing 
to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. Faith is the 
key.

But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word 
so will judge those according to their actions.

HELP

Cya
Simon

"Simon Dean"  wrote in message
> My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites suggests 
> that...
>
> Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence, the 
> world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But continuing to 
> sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. Faith is the key.
>
> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word 
> so will judge those according to their actions.

Hi! Simon.
If they die without knowing of Christ then they were not destined to be 
"Called by God" and will be heard of no-more.
 "19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see 
light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts 
that perish." Psalms 49:19-20 (KJV)
__
Veff...

Simon Dean wrote:
> Hi Again,
>
> As I progress my journey in Christianity, so I find I have more
> questions.
> If salvation is dependant upon our repentence from sin and faith in
> Christ, then what happens to those people who have never heard the
> word, or were given the chance to hear the word?
>
> If God is a just God and either allows other paths through other
> religions according to the persons teachings, or is judged accordingly
> according to their deeds, thoughts and words, then why is it more
> preferable to be Christian over other religions?
>
> I am trying to read and understand Romans at the moment, and it seems
> even if one is Christian, with faith in Christ, it is no excuse to
> still live a life of sin. So it does seem deeds are more important
> still.
> So Im really confused, and Im probably biting off way too much more
> than I can chew, but if I don't ask these questions I'll go stir
> crazy.
> My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites
> suggests that...
>
> Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence,
> the world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But
> continuing to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. 
> Faith is
> the key.
>
> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the
> word so will judge those according to their actions.
>
> HELP
>
> Cya
> Simon

As a Trinitarian Christian (that is, one who believes God is Father, Son and 
Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, co-equal and co-eternal with 
one-another), I believe that, as Christ is divine, then Jesus' statement 
that He is "The way, the truth and the life", and that "No one comes to the 
Father but by me", is actually a statement that He alone (God) is the One 
who chooses who is Saved.  Thus, it is not for us to know whom He might save 
among those of other, or no faith, or of children and babies that die very 
young, or of people who never get to hear the Message.  (It is worth reading 
the Book of Hebrews, to memory I think it is Chapter 11 that is particularly 
relevant).  However, there are promises for those who accept Christ and 
'remain in Him'.

Tim.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
 wrote:

>Hi Again,
>
>As I progress my journey in Christianity, so I find I have more questions.
>
>If salvation is dependant upon our repentence from sin and faith in 
>Christ, then what happens to those people who have never heard the word, 
>or were given the chance to hear the word?
>
>If God is a just God and either allows other paths through other 
>religions according to the persons teachings, or is judged accordingly 
>according to their deeds, thoughts and words, then why is it more 
>preferable to be Christian over other religions?
>
>I am trying to read and understand Romans at the moment, and it seems 
>even if one is Christian, with faith in Christ, it is no excuse to still 
>live a life of sin. So it does seem deeds are more important still.
>
>So Im really confused, and Im probably biting off way too much more than 
>I can chew, but if I don't ask these questions I'll go stir crazy.
>
>My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites suggests 
>that...
>
>Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence, the 
>world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But continuing 
>to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. Faith is the 
>key.
>
>But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word 
>so will judge those according to their actions.

You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
mercy.
-- 

Richard Emblem
"God loves each of us as if there were only one of us" St Augustine.

- .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
> Simon Dean wrote:
>> Hi Again,
>>
>> As I progress my journey in Christianity, so I find I have more
>> questions.
>> If salvation is dependant upon our repentence from sin and faith in
>> Christ, then what happens to those people who have never heard the
>> word, or were given the chance to hear the word?
>>
>> If God is a just God and either allows other paths through other
>> religions according to the persons teachings, or is judged accordingly
>> according to their deeds, thoughts and words, then why is it more
>> preferable to be Christian over other religions?
>>
>> I am trying to read and understand Romans at the moment, and it seems
>> even if one is Christian, with faith in Christ, it is no excuse to
>> still live a life of sin. So it does seem deeds are more important
>> still.
>> So Im really confused, and Im probably biting off way too much more
>> than I can chew, but if I don't ask these questions I'll go stir
>> crazy.
>> My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites
>> suggests that...
>>
>> Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence,
>> the world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But
>> continuing to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. 
>> Faith is
>> the key.
>>
>> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the
>> word so will judge those according to their actions.
>>
>> HELP
>>
>> Cya
>> Simon
> 
> As a Trinitarian Christian (that is, one who believes God is Father, Son and 
> Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, co-equal and co-eternal with 
> one-another), I believe that, as Christ is divine, then Jesus' statement 
> that He is "The way, the truth and the life", and that "No one comes to the 
> Father but by me", is actually a statement that He alone (God) is the One 
> who chooses who is Saved.  Thus, it is not for us to know whom He might save 
> among those of other, or no faith, or of children and babies that die very 
> young, or of people who never get to hear the Message.  (It is worth reading 
> the Book of Hebrews, to memory I think it is Chapter 11 that is particularly 
> relevant).  However, there are promises for those who accept Christ and 
> 'remain in Him'.
> 
> Tim. 
> 

That would be my next question.

It seems faith without deeds is irrelevent (I think according to James 
and/or Romans) the same as deeds without faith seem irrelevent to 
Christianity.

So there must be some redemption plan for people who never get to hear 
the message.

But there must either be some benefit through hearing about Christ (Holy 
Spirit?), or some kind of consequence of rejecting Christ and choosing 
another path.

"- .. -- Tim .-."  wrote in message 
news:lZmdncAPsIY1yFXXnZ2dnUVZ8s-dnZ2d@bt.com...
> Simon Dean wrote:
>> Hi Again,
>>
>> As I progress my journey in Christianity, so I find I have more
>> questions.
>> If salvation is dependant upon our repentence from sin and faith in
>> Christ, then what happens to those people who have never heard the
>> word, or were given the chance to hear the word?
>>
>> If God is a just God and either allows other paths through other
>> religions according to the persons teachings, or is judged accordingly
>> according to their deeds, thoughts and words, then why is it more
>> preferable to be Christian over other religions?
>>
>> I am trying to read and understand Romans at the moment, and it seems
>> even if one is Christian, with faith in Christ, it is no excuse to
>> still live a life of sin. So it does seem deeds are more important
>> still.
>> So Im really confused, and Im probably biting off way too much more
>> than I can chew, but if I don't ask these questions I'll go stir
>> crazy.
>> My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites
>> suggests that...
>>
>> Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence,
>> the world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But
>> continuing to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. 
>> Faith is
>> the key.
>>
>> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the
>> word so will judge those according to their actions.
>>
>> HELP
>>
>> Cya
>> Simon
>
> As a Trinitarian Christian (that is, one who believes God is Father, Son 
> and Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, co-equal and co-eternal with 
> one-another), I believe that, as Christ is divine, then Jesus' statement 
> that He is "The way, the truth and the life", and that "No one comes to 
> the Father but by me", is actually a statement that He alone (God) is the 
> One who chooses who is Saved.  Thus, it is not for us to know whom He 
> might save among those of other, or no faith, or of children and babies 
> that die very young, or of people who never get to hear the Message.  (It 
> is worth reading the Book of Hebrews, to memory I think it is Chapter 11 
> that is particularly relevant).  However, there are promises for those who 
> accept Christ and 'remain in Him'.
>
> Tim.

Of course one has to ignore lots of other things that Jesus said for that 
interpretation to stand.

Phil

"Richard Emblem"  wrote in message 
news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>  wrote:
>
snip
>>
>>But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word
>>so will judge those according to their actions.
>
> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
> mercy.

If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what the bible 
teaches.

Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very words 
of Jesus himself.

Phil

"Simon Dean"  wrote in message 
news:7ir4oaF337n90U1@mid.individual.net...
>- .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
>> Simon Dean wrote:

snip

> That would be my next question.
>
> It seems faith without deeds is irrelevent (I think according to James 
> and/or Romans) the same as deeds without faith seem irrelevent to 
> Christianity.

There is no such thing as faith in Jesus that does not produce fruit.

> So there must be some redemption plan for people who never get to hear the 
> message.

Why must there be? Why should God be required to do something for them?

Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then in 
doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some from the 
destruction that they bring upon themselves.

> But there must either be some benefit through hearing about Christ (Holy 
> Spirit?), or some kind of consequence of rejecting Christ and choosing 
> another path.

Eternal life is what we are given. Those without it will be destroyed.

Phil

On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
Saunders had written:

> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.

Fortunately God's nicer than that.

-- 
I am Robert Billing, Christian, author, inventor, traveller, cook and
animal lover. "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book
as a woman is with child."
Quality e-books for portable readers: http://www.alex-library.com

On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:54:26 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
 wrote:

>"Simon Dean"  wrote in message 
>news:7ir4oaF337n90U1@mid.individual.net...
>>- .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
>>> Simon Dean wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> That would be my next question.
>>
>> It seems faith without deeds is irrelevent (I think according to James 
>> and/or Romans) the same as deeds without faith seem irrelevent to 
>> Christianity.
>
>There is no such thing as faith in Jesus that does not produce fruit.
>
>> So there must be some redemption plan for people who never get to hear the 
>> message.
>
>Why must there be? Why should God be required to do something for them?

Your one eyed, bigoted, tunnel visioned view of the enormity of God,
what God is and isn't astounds even me. Me-thinks that you have been
reading the Bible too much instead of asking God.
>
>Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then in 
>doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some from the 
>destruction that they bring upon themselves.

And there you go again - ascribing your atrocious human values and
bigotry to God.
>
>> But there must either be some benefit through hearing about Christ (Holy 
>> Spirit?), or some kind of consequence of rejecting Christ and choosing 
>> another path.
>
>Eternal life is what we are given. Those without it will be destroyed.

Aint you in for a shock.


Keith Mason

http://www.gospel.co.uk

Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin
-- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary,
destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege,
established institutions, and comfortable habit. But thought looks
into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and
free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. 

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)


>
>Phil
>
>
>
>

On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:51:38 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
 wrote:

>"Richard Emblem"  wrote in message 
>news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>>  wrote:
>>
>snip
>>>
>>>But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word
>>>so will judge those according to their actions.
>>
>> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
>> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
>> mercy.
>
>If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what the bible 
>teaches.

>
>Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very words 
>of Jesus himself.

And what ever you do - don't use such words as "condemned" in such a
loose and bigoted sense like Phil does without first looking it up and
understanding the various possible meanings of it an the various
contexts.  

Keith Mason

http://www.gospel.co.uk


Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin
-- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary,
destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege,
established institutions, and comfortable habit. But thought looks
into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and
free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. 

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

"Robert Billing"  wrote in message 
news:cW_xm.7$xv1.5@newsfe05.ams2...
On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
Saunders had written:

I wrote

> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.

Mr Billing replied

"Fortunately God's nicer than that."

I understand that you think you know better than the scriptures but could 
you explain how you came by such wisdom?

Phil

>>
>> As a Trinitarian Christian (that is, one who believes God is Father,
>> Son and Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, co-equal and
>> co-eternal with one-another), I believe that, as Christ is divine,
>> then Jesus' statement that He is "The way, the truth and the life",
>> and that "No one comes to the Father but by me", is actually a
>> statement that He alone (God) is the One who chooses who is Saved. Thus, 
>> it is not for us to know whom He might save among those of
>> other, or no faith, or of children and babies that die very young,
>> or of people who never get to hear the Message.  (It is worth
>> reading the Book of Hebrews, to memory I think it is Chapter 11 that
>> is particularly relevant).  However, there are promises for those
>> who accept Christ and 'remain in Him'. Tim.
>>
>
> That would be my next question.
>
> It seems faith without deeds is irrelevent (I think according to James
> and/or Romans) the same as deeds without faith seem irrelevent to
> Christianity.

Yes, we are not saved BY our own works, i.e., 'good deeds', religious 
observances, etc.  We are saved because of God's Grace, through faith in 
Christ.  But Hebrews does give examples of people in the past for whom their 
works had been credited to them as righteousness.  Again, that is because of 
Grace, since no-one can be anywhere near good enough, of their own efforts, 
to actually *earn* salvation.  The way I see it is that God sees what is in 
a person's heart, and chooses to save them or not.  One would expect a 
genuine and saving faith in Christ to result in good works, so absence of 
works probably indicates a superficial, less-than-genuine faith.

>
> So there must be some redemption plan for people who never get to hear
> the message.

I believe God sees what is in the heart, He saves whom He chooses, and since 
none actually *deserve* salvation, any He saves, He saves because of His 
perfect love.

>
> But there must either be some benefit through hearing about Christ
> (Holy Spirit?), or some kind of consequence of rejecting Christ and
> choosing another path.

I believe those who deliberately reject God, have made a choice to be 
separated from God.  With regards to other faiths, Christianity does make 
some claims which are (as far as I know) unique, and also claims an 
historical basis.  Personally, I think many other faiths have *some* of the 
'Truth', but are incomplete (rather than 'wrong'), whereas Christianity 
dares to claim that God experienced (through Christ) living, suffering and 
dying as one of us, because of His great love for us.  Thus IMO only 
Christianity presents both the perfect holiness and justice of God and God's 
perfect love and compassion, these held in perfect balance.  Many other 
faiths seem to depict God as some great power 'up there' that we have to 
desperately try to appease in the slim hope that He might just choose not to 
destroy us (yet).  Christianity presents a view of God as not only holy and 
perfect, but also perfectly loving.  A God whom, far from being remote, 
comes to dwell in us and we in Him.  Love is the key.

Tim.

Keith Mason wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:51:38 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>> "Richard Emblem"  wrote in message
>> news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>> snip
>>>>
>>>> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without
>>>> the word so will judge those according to their actions.
>>>
>>> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
>>> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
>>> mercy.
>>
>> If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what
>> the bible teaches.
>
>>
>> Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very
>> words of Jesus himself.
>
> And what ever you do - don't use such words as "condemned" in such a
> loose and bigoted sense like Phil does without first looking it up and
> understanding the various possible meanings of it an the various
> contexts.
>
> Keith Mason

Yes, I no longer respond to Phil in most cases.

Tim.

>
> http://www.gospel.co.uk
>
>
> Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin
> -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary,
> destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege,
> established institutions, and comfortable habit. But thought looks
> into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and
> free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.
>
> Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:34:34 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
 wrote:

>
>"Robert Billing"  wrote in message 
>news:cW_xm.7$xv1.5@newsfe05.ams2...
>On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
>Saunders had written:
>
>I wrote
>
>> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
>> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
>> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.

I would rephrase the last bit to read.

In his mercy he offers everyone the free gift that is salvation.
Those that reject it receive the destruction that they bring upon
themselves.

To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?



>Mr Billing replied
>
>"Fortunately God's nicer than that."

I agree with Bob, we do not know the ways of God but if you believe in
a God that loves us so much he sent his own son to die in our place
then do you not think it possible that his plan of salvation is bigger
than we imagine?


-------

John

Phil Saunders wrote:
> "Richard Emblem"  wrote in message
> news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>>  wrote:
>>
> snip
>>>
>>> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the
>>> word so will judge those according to their actions.
>>
>> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
>> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
>> mercy.
>
> If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what the
> bible teaches.

"everyone who does right has been born of him." Jn. 2:29
>
> Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very
> words of Jesus himself.

"whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven" -Jesus 
Mt.12:32
>
> Phil

"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:34:34 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Robert Billing"  wrote in message
>>news:cW_xm.7$xv1.5@newsfe05.ams2...
>>On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
>>Saunders had written:
>>
>>I wrote
>>
>>> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
>>> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
>>> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.
>
> I would rephrase the last bit to read.
>
> In his mercy he offers everyone the free gift that is salvation.
> Those that reject it receive the destruction that they bring upon
> themselves.
>
> To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?
>
>>Mr Billing replied
>>
>>"Fortunately God's nicer than that."
>
> I agree with Bob, we do not know the ways of God but if you believe in
> a God that loves us so much he sent his own son to die in our place
> then do you not think it possible that his plan of salvation is bigger
> than we imagine?

His 'plan' is as big as He has told us..... "36 He that believeth on the Son 
hath eternal life; but he that [1]obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, 
but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 (ASV)
__
Veff...
[1]And that obedience includes being baptised by water [to enable one to 
"Put on Christ" AFTER coming to a belief in him.

"- .. -- Tim .-."  wrote in message 

> Yes, I no longer respond to Phil in most cases.
>Tim.

Seconded.
__
Veff...

"zayton"  wrote in message 
news:ui6ym.29577$As.18361@newsfe13.iad...
> Phil Saunders wrote:
>> "Richard Emblem"  wrote in message
>> news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>> snip
>>>>
>>>> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the
>>>> word so will judge those according to their actions.
>>>
>>> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
>>> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
>>> mercy.
>>
>> If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what the
>> bible teaches.
>
> "everyone who does right has been born of him." Jn. 2:29
>>
>> Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very
>> words of Jesus himself.
>
> "whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven" -Jesus 
> Mt.12:32

Not unless they are baptised after coming to a belief in Christ......
"Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of 
Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Acts 2:37-38 (ANIV)
Something the 'dyed in the wool' unbelieving baby brigade, disastrously 
forget.
__
Veff...
Ah! the refreshing wisdom of Scripture teaching.
"16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy 
sins, calling on the name of the Lord."  Acts 22:16 (KJV)

"Keith Mason"  wrote in message 
news:ld1hc55uvptqhf4d4otkuqdbbji1pjjs0e@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:54:26 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>>"Simon Dean"  wrote in message
>>news:7ir4oaF337n90U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>- .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
>>>> Simon Dean wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>
>>> That would be my next question.
>>>
>>> It seems faith without deeds is irrelevent (I think according to James
>>> and/or Romans) the same as deeds without faith seem irrelevent to
>>> Christianity.
>>
>>There is no such thing as faith in Jesus that does not produce fruit.
>>
>>> So there must be some redemption plan for people who never get to hear 
>>> the
>>> message.
>>
>>Why must there be? Why should God be required to do something for them?
>
> Your one eyed, bigoted, tunnel visioned view of the enormity of God,
> what God is and isn't astounds even me. Me-thinks that you have been
> reading the Bible too much instead of asking God.

I notice insult but no argument.

>>Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then in
>>doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some from the
>>destruction that they bring upon themselves.
>
> And there you go again - ascribing your atrocious human values and
> bigotry to God.

Once again, insult but no argument.

>>> But there must either be some benefit through hearing about Christ (Holy
>>> Spirit?), or some kind of consequence of rejecting Christ and choosing
>>> another path.
>>
>>Eternal life is what we are given. Those without it will be destroyed.
>
> Aint you in for a shock.

I don't know, why should what you think be right?

Phil

"Keith Mason"  wrote in message 
news:ud1hc557cbjbrf4aqq6qfdk146fhr83vbi@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:51:38 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>>"Richard Emblem"  wrote in message
>>news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>snip
>>>>
>>>>But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word
>>>>so will judge those according to their actions.
>>>
>>> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
>>> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
>>> mercy.
>>
>>If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what the 
>>bible
>>teaches.
>>
>>Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very words
>>of Jesus himself.
>
> And what ever you do - don't use such words as "condemned" in such a
> loose and bigoted sense like Phil does without first looking it up and
> understanding the various possible meanings of it an the various
> contexts.

Ah I see that you never let the truth get in the way of an insult.

Phil

"- .. -- Tim .-."  wrote in message 
news:-smdndabT-w4B1XXnZ2dnUVZ8qidnZ2d@bt.com...
> Keith Mason wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:51:38 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> "Richard Emblem"  wrote in message
>>> news:c3mgc5po7gpe215c8him9sq336endjd0ge@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:08:05 +0100, Simon Dean
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without
>>>>> the word so will judge those according to their actions.
>>>>
>>>> You are of course correct in your final paragraph.
>>>> Don't  believe and trust in a false God who condemns without love or
>>>> mercy.
>>>
>>> If someone dies unbelieving then they are condemned. That is what
>>> the bible teaches.
>>
>>>
>>> Don't believe those who deem themselves worthy to over rule the very
>>> words of Jesus himself.
>>
>> And what ever you do - don't use such words as "condemned" in such a
>> loose and bigoted sense like Phil does without first looking it up and
>> understanding the various possible meanings of it an the various
>> contexts.
>>
>> Keith Mason
>
> Yes, I no longer respond to Phil in most cases.

ooh I'm crushed.

Phil

"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:34:34 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Robert Billing"  wrote in message
>>news:cW_xm.7$xv1.5@newsfe05.ams2...
>>On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
>>Saunders had written:
>>
>>I wrote
>>
>>> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
>>> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
>>> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.
>
> I would rephrase the last bit to read.
>
> In his mercy he offers everyone the free gift that is salvation.
> Those that reject it receive the destruction that they bring upon
> themselves.
>
> To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?

They don't need to reject it to be condemned, they are condemned already.

God does not offer to all the free gift of salvation. He gives it to some.

Phil

"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> 
wrote in message news:7isc3kF30qtomU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "- .. -- Tim .-."  wrote in message
>> Yes, I no longer respond to Phil in most cases.
>>Tim.
>
> Seconded.

Oh I've really lost out haven't I, boo hoo

Phil

On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Ripon43
had written:

> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:34:34 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Robert Billing"  wrote in message
>>news:cW_xm.7$xv1.5@newsfe05.ams2...
>>On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
>>Saunders had written:
>>
>>I wrote
>>
>>> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
>>> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
>>> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.
> 
> I would rephrase the last bit to read.
> 
> In his mercy he offers everyone the free gift that is salvation. Those
> that reject it receive the destruction that they bring upon themselves.
> 
> To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?
> 
> 
> 
>>Mr Billing replied
>>
>>"Fortunately God's nicer than that."
> 
> I agree with Bob, we do not know the ways of God but if you believe in a
> God that loves us so much he sent his own son to die in our place then
> do you not think it possible that his plan of salvation is bigger than
> we imagine?

Not only bigger, but a great deal stranger. I'll ask again the question 
that set me off down this line of thought: Can God go back in time and 
"make it so that it didn't happen", or is the past beyond the reach of 
ominpotence?

-- 
I am Robert Billing, Christian, author, inventor, traveller, cook and
animal lover. "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book
as a woman is with child."
Quality e-books for portable readers: http://www.alex-library.com

- .. --  Tim    .-. wrote:

> I believe those who deliberately reject God, have made a choice to be 
> separated from God.

What do you mean by "reject God"? For instance, suppose a Christian
has a Hindu friend, learns about Hinduism in order to understand
the friend better, and comes reluctantly to the conclusion that
actually Hinduism is truer than Christianity, and converts. Do you
call that "rejecting God"?

If so, it seems to me obviously false to say that someone who comes
to think that Christianity is badly wrong and therefore rejects
*Christianity* has "rejected God". They may have rejected *belief
in God*, or at least *belief in some of the things Christianity says
about God*, but that is not the same.

But perhaps you think that those of us who reject Christianity
are dishonest or deluded about what we think and why?

-- 
Gareth McCaughan
sig under construc

On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:13:25 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
 wrote:

>"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
>news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...

>> To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?
>
>They don't need to reject it to be condemned, they are condemned already.
>
>God does not offer to all the free gift of salvation. He gives it to some.

I take it you hold the calvinist view, something I have big problems
with.

John 3:16 says  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and
only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
eternal life"

there are a myriad of other verses as well.  I am also aware of some
verses that support the calvinist view so I am not dismissing it out
of hand.

How do you support your theory that God only offers salvation to some
and not all.

(I am not interested in a bible slanging match or that saying I am
right and you are wrong/vice versa)  A genuine debate would be nice


------

John

"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
news:3fbjc51b12bqnf8f3dg5tahnskf9nb55pi@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:13:25 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>>"Ripon43"  wrote in message
>>news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...
>
>>> To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?
>>
>>They don't need to reject it to be condemned, they are condemned already.
>>
>>God does not offer to all the free gift of salvation. He gives it to some.
>
> I take it you hold the calvinist view, something I have big problems
> with.

Well I'd say I take the view of both Jesus and Paul :-)

> John 3:16 says  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and
> only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
> eternal life"

Indeed where does that say that God ever intended or wanted to save every 
person that ever lived?

It certainly was God's intent that those that believe should be saved.

> there are a myriad of other verses as well.  I am also aware of some
> verses that support the calvinist view so I am not dismissing it out
> of hand.

That verse is a classical support for Calvinism lol what othhr verse had you 
in mind?

> How do you support your theory that God only offers salvation to some
> and not all.
>
> (I am not interested in a bible slanging match or that saying I am
> right and you are wrong/vice versa)  A genuine debate would be nice

God calls all men to salvation. None come.

God calls some to Jesus and gives them a gift, faith, with which to believe 
on Him.

Jesus said that no one could come unless the Father draws them and that if 
they come then He will in no way cast them out.

If the Father drew them all and Jesus cast none of them out then every 
single person would be saved wouldn't they?

Therefore God draws less then every single person if you accept that one 
person was ever or will ever be unsaved.

I don't know how many will be saved and how many unsaved but I do think that 
there will be two groups.

Phil

On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:03:17 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
>news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:34:34 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Robert Billing"  wrote in message
>>>news:cW_xm.7$xv1.5@newsfe05.ams2...
>>>On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Phil
>>>Saunders had written:
>>>
>>>I wrote
>>>
>>>> Not one person deserves salvation and if God saves not one person then
>>>> in doing that he would be perfectly just. In His mercy He saves some
>>>> from the destruction that they bring upon themselves.
>>
>> I would rephrase the last bit to read.
>>
>> In his mercy he offers everyone the free gift that is salvation.
>> Those that reject it receive the destruction that they bring upon
>> themselves.
>>
>> To those not offered salvation through Jesus, how can they reject it?
>>
>>>Mr Billing replied
>>>
>>>"Fortunately God's nicer than that."
>>
>> I agree with Bob, we do not know the ways of God but if you believe in
>> a God that loves us so much he sent his own son to die in our place
>> then do you not think it possible that his plan of salvation is bigger
>> than we imagine?
>
>His 'plan' is as big as He has told us..... "36 He that believeth on the Son 
>hath eternal life; but he that [1]obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, 
>but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 (ASV)

I love it how you use different versions of the bible to fit your
beliefs :-)

The greek says believeth not which fits far better.  It is also
translated correctly in the KJV, your preferred version.

I actually agree with the verse.  But just as Jesus preached to those
in prison after they died who are we to say that for those who have
genuinely not heard the gospel in this life will not get to hear  it
after they die.

Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me".  He
didn't say how.

---

John

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:50:09 GMT, Robert Billing
 wrote:


Me
>> I agree with Bob, we do not know the ways of God but if you believe in a
>> God that loves us so much he sent his own son to die in our place then
>> do you not think it possible that his plan of salvation is bigger than
>> we imagine?
>
>Not only bigger, but a great deal stranger. I'll ask again the question 
>that set me off down this line of thought: Can God go back in time and 
>"make it so that it didn't happen", or is the past beyond the reach of 
>ominpotence?

Thats your science fiction mind in overtime Bob :-)

I was once told by a teacher at school that our life doesn;t really
exist, and we are all cabbages in a field imagining it all.  I giggle
at this often because it could well be true.

It is an interesting thought, and certainly not beyond the reach of
God's omnipotence, but personally I think it negates the gospel
message.  If it all really wasn't necessary, then what was the point
of Jesus death?

---

John

Simon Dean wrote:
> Hi Again,
> 
> As I progress my journey in Christianity, so I find I have more questions.
> 
> If salvation is dependant upon our repentence from sin and faith in 
> Christ, then what happens to those people who have never heard the word, 
> or were given the chance to hear the word?
> 
> If God is a just God and either allows other paths through other 
> religions according to the persons teachings, or is judged accordingly 
> according to their deeds, thoughts and words, then why is it more 
> preferable to be Christian over other religions?
> 
> I am trying to read and understand Romans at the moment, and it seems 
> even if one is Christian, with faith in Christ, it is no excuse to still 
> live a life of sin. So it does seem deeds are more important still.
> 
> So Im really confused, and Im probably biting off way too much more than 
> I can chew, but if I don't ask these questions I'll go stir crazy.
> 
> My gut feeling about it all after reading a couple of websites suggests 
> that...
> 
> Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence, the 
> world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But continuing 
> to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. Faith is the 
> key.
> 
> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word 
> so will judge those according to their actions.
> 
> HELP
> 


Simon, keep on asking the questions. It's important that you should do 
so. But I wonder if you are not biting off more than you can chew right 
now. Maybe have a notebook and right down questions as they occur (OK, 
then, two notebooks!!) but don't worry about the answers just now. But 
you'll probably find that what seem like a dozen different questions at 
the moment will resolve into two or three questions in slightly 
different form; that is, the same kinds of issue will keep coming up but 
in different contexts.

Enjoy the excitement that is coming from the experience of new faith and 
an awakening to such big issues. They are important. But Christians have 
been wrestling with these issues over and again right from the 
beginning; and we still don't have fixed answers to these big questions. 
So your world is not going to collapse if you don't get answers straight 
away. It is important, though, that you keep asking and searching.

Me (I'm that terrible liberal, remember!) I would distrust anyone who 
claims to have ready made answers. Those answers will be shaped by 
either some external doctrinal authority (alleged) or the individual's 
own needs and problems. They will almost certainly not fit you.

What we do is work out a holding position - an approximate answer which 
will hold the question for the time being - but which will be varied 
many times as our experience of faith and life develops. And the 
ultimate holding position, for me, is embodied in the words of Paul 
quoted in my sig. While I hold that as truth, the rest can spin round me 
like crazy and I will still stand firm in faith in the God who is all Love.


-- 

Revd. Eric Potts

"Faith, hope and love abide, these three;
and the greatest of these is love."

Gareth McCaughan wrote:
> - .. --  Tim    .-. wrote:
>
>> I believe those who deliberately reject God, have made a choice to be
>> separated from God.
>
> What do you mean by "reject God"? For instance, suppose a Christian
> has a Hindu friend, learns about Hinduism in order to understand
> the friend better, and comes reluctantly to the conclusion that
> actually Hinduism is truer than Christianity, and converts. Do you
> call that "rejecting God"?
>
> If so, it seems to me obviously false to say that someone who comes
> to think that Christianity is badly wrong and therefore rejects
> *Christianity* has "rejected God". They may have rejected *belief
> in God*, or at least *belief in some of the things Christianity says
> about God*, but that is not the same.
>
> But perhaps you think that those of us who reject Christianity
> are dishonest or deluded about what we think and why?

I meant those who actively and positively turn against God.  That implies 
that they at least believe God exists!  As for those who don't believe in 
God (as organised religion describes God, at least), then it is my own view 
that we simply do not know what God will choose to do or not do, regarding 
them.

Tim.

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:10:50 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
 wrote:

>"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
>news:3fbjc51b12bqnf8f3dg5tahnskf9nb55pi@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:13:25 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>"Ripon43"  wrote in message
>>>news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...
>>

>> I take it you hold the calvinist view, something I have big problems
>> with.
>
>Well I'd say I take the view of both Jesus and Paul :-)

Sorry Jeff <grin>  I don't think any of us would hold our views if we
didn't believe it to be biblical/from God.

>> John 3:16 says  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and
>> only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
>> eternal life"

>That verse is a classical support for Calvinism lol what othhr verse had you 
>in mind?

>Indeed where does that say that God ever intended or wanted to save every 
>person that ever lived?

We obviously read it in a different way, but I take your point if you
read it from a calvinistic viewpoint, but what of verse 18?  

>
>> How do you support your theory that God only offers salvation to some
>> and not all.

>God calls all men to salvation. None come.

I don't understand this, please can you explain.

>God calls some to Jesus and gives them a gift, faith, with which to believe 
>on Him.

Are you talking about iirresistible grace?  Do you not think that
someone can hear the message and reject it. (not because it wasn't
meant for them to be saved)

>Jesus said that no one could come unless the Father draws them and that if 
>they come then He will in no way cast them out.

Once saved, always saved?  I don't hold to that view but would not
deny its possibility.  "If we disown God, He will disown us"  

I have wandered from God twice, I was under no illusion that if I had
died at either time, I would not have been in God's kingdom.

>If the Father drew them all and Jesus cast none of them out then every 
>single person would be saved wouldn't they?

It is my belief that everyone that hears the gospel message has the
option (free will) to either accept it or reject it (John 3:36 kind of
supports that)  It is only by rejecting it that we are "condemned"

If you reject the sanctifying work of the Spirit in drawing you to
Christ, then, imo, you have committed the sin of blasphemy against
him.
Matthew 12:31-32

>Therefore God draws less then every single person if you accept that one 
>person was ever or will ever be unsaved.

Just read John 6 and 10 which I think is where you are taking this
from.  Again, looking at it with a calvinistic viewpoint I understand
what you are saying.

>I don't know how many will be saved and how many unsaved but I do think that 
>there will be two groups.

In that I agree 

>....what othhr verse had you 
>in mind?

Some of the verses that imo oppose your viewpoint are as follows.

John 12:32
1 John 2:2
1 John 4:9-10
1 John  5:10

and I guess my strongest 2 Peter 3:9

I would be interested in your view on these.

My other problem (and I don.t know your stance on this) in my view  it
is the devil that keeps someone from knowing Jesus.2 Corinthians 4:4
to quote one verse.

If pre selection is true, and that once saved etc  why are we
constantly warned to be on our guard against him?

---

John

Phil Saunders wrote:

> They don't need to reject it to be condemned, they are condemned
> already.
> 
> God does not offer to all the free gift of salvation. He gives it to
> some.
> 
> Phil

But why should those "some" be chosen based upon geographical location,
family ties, or mental handicap? Are you saying that those people
"deserve condemnation"?

You're a Mormon and I claim my £5.

"Ripon43"  wrote in message 
news:tigjc593m1dar26o4scd4j1iikkr90rm7b@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:10:50 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>  wrote:
>
>>"Ripon43"  wrote in message
>>news:3fbjc51b12bqnf8f3dg5tahnskf9nb55pi@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:13:25 GMT, "Phil Saunders"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Ripon43"  wrote in message
>>>>news:f9bhc59l2feers917l9le1crkqsr5on4hl@4ax.com...

snip

>>> John 3:16 says  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and
>>> only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
>>> eternal life"
>
>>That verse is a classical support for Calvinism lol what othhr verse had 
>>you
>>in mind?
>
>>Indeed where does that say that God ever intended or wanted to save every
>>person that ever lived?
>
> We obviously read it in a different way, but I take your point if you
> read it from a calvinistic viewpoint, but what of verse 18?

It is utterly true. All those that believe will be saved from the 
condemnation under which all men stand.

>>> How do you support your theory that God only offers salvation to some
>>> and not all.
>
>>God calls all men to salvation. None come.
>
> I don't understand this, please can you explain.

Certainly. God calls all men to righteousness but they do not seek 
righteousness but instead they go their own way.

>>God calls some to Jesus and gives them a gift, faith, with which to 
>>believe
>>on Him.
>
> Are you talking about iirresistible grace?  Do you not think that
> someone can hear the message and reject it. (not because it wasn't
> meant for them to be saved)

Well you can call it that but I call it irresistable love :-)

>>Jesus said that no one could come unless the Father draws them and that if
>>they come then He will in no way cast them out.
>
> Once saved, always saved?  I don't hold to that view but would not
> deny its possibility.  "If we disown God, He will disown us"

If it were possible to decieve the Elect then they might disown God, but it 
isn't possible and they won't do it.

> I have wandered from God twice, I was under no illusion that if I had
> died at either time, I would not have been in God's kingdom.

Then you have no understanding of grace. Lost Sheep? Where sin abounds does 
grace abound the more so.

>>If the Father drew them all and Jesus cast none of them out then every
>>single person would be saved wouldn't they?
>
> It is my belief that everyone that hears the gospel message has the
> option (free will) to either accept it or reject it (John 3:36 kind of
> supports that)  It is only by rejecting it that we are "condemned"

So we aren't saved by grace through faith then but by making a right 
decision and then performing works of righteousness afterwards?

OK I know many see it that way. I see it the other way.

> If you reject the sanctifying work of the Spirit in drawing you to
> Christ, then, imo, you have committed the sin of blasphemy against
> him.
> Matthew 12:31-32

Really? So how does that verse say that? It isn't talking about anything 
even remotely like that, not in context or in tone.

>>Therefore God draws less then every single person if you accept that one
>>person was ever or will ever be unsaved.
>
> Just read John 6 and 10 which I think is where you are taking this
> from.  Again, looking at it with a calvinistic viewpoint I understand
> what you are saying.
>
>>I don't know how many will be saved and how many unsaved but I do think 
>>that
>>there will be two groups.
>
> In that I agree

Then whode cides who is saved or not? A free gift or an enslaved will?

>>....what othhr verse had you
>>in mind?
>
> Some of the verses that imo oppose your viewpoint are as follows.

> John 12:32
> 1 John 2:2
> 1 John 4:9-10
> 1 John  5:10
>
> and I guess my strongest 2 Peter 3:9
>
> I would be interested in your view on these.

John 12:32 All kinds of men, not every single man. If you take the all men 
to mean literally every single man then what of women? If it is all men then 
what of all those that lived before Jesus?

1 John 2:2 Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all men because it is 
sufficient for all sin. Does that make all men forgiven and saved?

1 John 4:9-10 That is indeed how God showed His love to "us" but the us is 
not every person on the planet but the people being discussed in the letter.

1 John 5:10 I can't even see how that verse is about this issue

2 peter 3:9 It says that the letter is addressed to Christians and that God 
is patient with us. He will not end it all until all the elect are gathered 
in.

> My other problem (and I don.t know your stance on this) in my view  it
> is the devil that keeps someone from knowing Jesus.2 Corinthians 4:4
> to quote one verse.

They are blinded, if they are blinded, by the devil. So? What difference 
does that make to whether God will save them or not?

> If pre selection is true, and that once saved etc  why are we
> constantly warned to be on our guard against him?

My children are always my children and yet I warn them off doing things that 
will be abd for them. Sometimes the warning is all that is needed to prevent 
them doing the bad thing. Sometimes they need forgiveness and grace.

Phil

"Simon Dean"  wrote in message 
news:7iu4njF3319umU1@mid.individual.net...
> Phil Saunders wrote:
>
>> They don't need to reject it to be condemned, they are condemned
>> already.
>>
>> God does not offer to all the free gift of salvation. He gives it to
>> some.
>>
>> Phil
>
> But why should those "some" be chosen based upon geographical location,
> family ties, or mental handicap? Are you saying that those people
> "deserve condemnation"?
>
> You're a Mormon and I claim my £5.

Have you some reason to think that the Elect are chosen for any of those 
reasons.

The Elect will come from all corners of the earth, from broken families and 
will be mostly from those that society marginalises.

Phil

On the back of a receipt from Mike Tucker's self-drive cow rental Ripon43
had written:

> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:50:09 GMT, Robert Billing
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Me
>>> I agree with Bob, we do not know the ways of God but if you believe in
>>> a God that loves us so much he sent his own son to die in our place
>>> then do you not think it possible that his plan of salvation is bigger
>>> than we imagine?
>>
>>Not only bigger, but a great deal stranger. I'll ask again the question
>>that set me off down this line of thought: Can God go back in time and
>>"make it so that it didn't happen", or is the past beyond the reach of
>>ominpotence?
> 
> Thats your science fiction mind in overtime Bob :-)

Yup. :=*)

> I was once told by a teacher at school that our life doesn;t really
> exist, and we are all cabbages in a field imagining it all.  I giggle at
> this often because it could well be true.

Exactly. That's why I'm currently writing a novel where most of the action 
takes place in VR.

> It is an interesting thought, and certainly not beyond the reach of
> God's omnipotence, but personally I think it negates the gospel message>  If it all really wasn't necessary, then what was the point of Jesus
> death?

It's an interesting question. What if the point is to "make it so it 
didn't happen" (there are hints at this in Revelation IIRC) but without 
unmaking us?

The way I see it, the universe is like a computer that's badly in need of 
an overhaul, but you put it off until you've finished the novel you are 
writing on it. In the same way the universe is in need of reformatting to 
do away with evil, but if God just did it we'd never have existed.

If you have a chance to get hold of the January 2008 Nature Physics have a 
look at "Futures" (the back page) for my take on time travel.

-- 
I am Robert Billing, Christian, author, inventor, traveller, cook and
animal lover. "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book
as a woman is with child."
Quality e-books for portable readers: http://www.alex-library.com

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:58:34 GMT, Robert Billing
 wrote:


Me
>> I was once told by a teacher at school that our life doesn;t really
>> exist, and we are all cabbages in a field imagining it all.  I giggle at
>> this often because it could well be true.
>
>Exactly. That's why I'm currently writing a novel where most of the action 
>takes place in VR.

Sounds interesting.

>> It is an interesting thought, and certainly not beyond the reach of
>> God's omnipotence, but personally I think it negates the gospel message 
>>  If it all really wasn't necessary, then what was the point of Jesus
>> death?
>
>It's an interesting question. What if the point is to "make it so it 
>didn't happen" (there are hints at this in Revelation IIRC) but without 
>unmaking us?

>The way I see it, the universe is like a computer that's badly in need of 
>an overhaul, but you put it off until you've finished the novel you are 
>writing on it. In the same way the universe is in need of reformatting to 
>do away with evil, but if God just did it we'd never have existed.

I see where you are coming from, and its one explanation as to why
evil is still with us, something I oftern wonder about.

>If you have a chance to get hold of the January 2008 Nature Physics have a 
>look at "Futures" (the back page) for my take on time travel.

Its unlikely but yes I will if I see it.

----

John

"Gareth McCaughan"  wrote in message 
news:87r5tijmgn.fsf@g.mccaughan.org.uk...
>- .. --  Tim    .-. wrote:
>
>> I believe those who deliberately reject God, have made a choice to be
>> separated from God.
>
> What do you mean by "reject God"? For instance, suppose a Christian
> has a Hindu friend, learns about Hinduism in order to understand
> the friend better, and comes reluctantly to the conclusion that
> actually Hinduism is truer than Christianity, and converts. Do you
> call that "rejecting God"?
>
> If so, it seems to me obviously false to say that someone who comes
> to think that Christianity is badly wrong and therefore rejects
> *Christianity* has "rejected God".

What sayeth the Scripture.
"35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the 
Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:35-36 
(ASV)

>They may have rejected *belief
> in God*, or at least *belief in some of the things Christianity says
> about God*, but that is not the same.

It is by Jesus' opinion....."16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that 
rejecteth you rejecteth me; and he that rejecteth me rejecteth him that sent 
me."
Luke 10:16 (ASV)
__
Veff...

"Ripon43"  wrote in message

>I love it how you use different versions of the bible to fit your
>beliefs :-)

ROFL.....S' right, John, all the Hebrew & Greek Scholars,  Translators 
worked together especially with me in mind....eager to translate them 
according and exactly to my own tastes and fancies.....{;O;}
Hooraaa!

"Ripon43"  wrote in message
news:esrjc59h38dho8it59f8rt5moroqq9nkkn@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:58:34 GMT, Robert Billing
>  wrote:
>>The way I see it, the universe is like a computer that's badly in need of
>>an overhaul, but you put it off until you've finished the novel you are
>>writing on it. In the same way the universe is in need of reformatting to
>>do away with evil, but if God just did it we'd never have existed.
>
John stated
> I see where you are coming from, and its one explanation as to why
> evil is still with us, something I oftern wonder about.

Without evil in the world God's chosen training saints would not be able to
have their real-time  and necessary trials and tribulations  and learn by
them.
Just as Christ experienced.
Evil in the world is necessary for their learning and training to be
obedient and faithful even when apparent nasty things sometimes happen to
them.
__
Veff...

"Simon Dean"  wrote in message 
news:7iu4njF3319umU1@mid.individual.net...

> But why should those "some" be chosen based upon geographical location,
> family ties, or mental handicap? Are you saying that those people
> "deserve condemnation"?

Every person on earth deserves condemnation, and that is what they will get 
unless they turn to Christ and are baptised by water immersion into his 
saving name.
__
Veff...

You see this is the problem I have, where one issue leads to another.

What happens to all those people who never get a chance to hear the 
gospel, the message of Christ? What happens to those who have been kept 
captive by abusive parents, those in hard to reach places of the world, 
those who are mentally handicapped or otherwise kept in the dark by an 
unforgiving society?

If salvation is only through Christ with or without deeds, then it 
almost supports a Mormon type argument about those people being "cursed" 
for some kind of pre-existing transgression before they were born. If it 
isn't, then what possible reason is there for denying some people Christ?

If on the other hand we're all judged at the end, then, this surely 
validates other religions, suggests there's multiple paths to God, it 
almost destroys the purpose of Christ dying on the cross.

The only thing that kind of makes sense is if we think that there are 
multiple paths to God, but only Christianity gives us the possibility 
for rebirth, to repent and have our sins forgiven. Plus the gift of the 
holy spirit.

And as for faith vs deeds, I get the feeling both are required, and it's 
deeds come through faith.

One link I found was "The reason to bother with Christianity is because 
it not only offers a diagnosis of the root cause of our problems - our 
rebellion against God - but it also offers a solution to this ultimate 
problem. Jesus said, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the 
sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners' (Mark 2:17). 
Jesus didn't come to tell people who wanted to be good how to be good; 
he came to tell those who knew they were bad how to come back into 
relationship with God."

I think it touches on this in Romans where it talks about the Jew and 
others. It's possible to lead a sinless life without Jesus. But 
essentially, we are all sinners and need the forgiveness of God through 
Jesus. He heals the sick, not the healthy.

But Romans talks about judgement at the end, but if we are all to be 
judged, so then why the need for Christ? I find Romans 3:1 "What 
advantage, then, is there in being a Jew...? Much in every way! First of 
all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God".  Romans 3:21: 
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, 
to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God 
comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.".

Kind of suggests to me that you can live under the law through faith in 
God (but without Christ). Or you can live through faith in Christ apart 
from the law. Both will be judged.

loiner2003 wrote:
> 
> ... They [the questions] are important. But Christians have
> been wrestling with these issues over and again right from the
> beginning; and we still don't have fixed answers to these big questions.

That in itself tells one something.

-- 
Which of the seven heavens / Was responsible her smile /
Wouldn't be sure but attested / That, whoever it was, a god /
Worth kneeling-to for a while / Had tabernacled and rested.

Simon Dean wrote:
> You see this is the problem I have, where one issue leads to another.
> 
> What happens to all those people who never get a chance to hear the 
> gospel, the message of Christ? What happens to those who have been kept 
> captive by abusive parents, those in hard to reach places of the world, 
> those who are mentally handicapped or otherwise kept in the dark by an 
> unforgiving society?
> 
> If salvation is only through Christ with or without deeds, then it 
> almost supports a Mormon type argument about those people being "cursed" 
> for some kind of pre-existing transgression before they were born. If it 
> isn't, then what possible reason is there for denying some people Christ?
> 
> If on the other hand we're all judged at the end, then, this surely 
> validates other religions, suggests there's multiple paths to God, it 
> almost destroys the purpose of Christ dying on the cross.

Why does there have to be just one route? Are we not limiting the grace 
of God if we think that there is just one route - which, of course, is 
always the one we think we are on, isn't it?

The New Testament was written against a specific background, for people 
largely from that background. So naturally it tackles the problem from 
the viewpoint of those who share that background. It shows no particular 
awareness of other cultures and other times. Joseph Smith was right in 
one thing - that is in quoting Jesus' saying that he has other sheep who 
are not of this fold. His mistake was in thinking he could restrict that 
other fold to those who followed him.

I cannot give you totally conclusive scripture, but equally I cannot for 
one moment believe that the God who is revealed in Jesus would condemn 
those you mention above just because they hadn't responded to an appeal, 
which they had never heard anyway, to accept Jesus as their personal 
saviour.

I think that today too many people make too big a thing of the faith 
versus works divide. God loves, forgives and heals us just as we are 
now, freely, without even considering whether or not we *deserve* it. 
But the good that we do is always to God's glory. If we are conscious of 
God's grace, then that good is our loving response to grace. We do not 
do good in order to earn love but because we are loved already. We love 
because he first loved us, yes.

And so, in my understanding, anyone who does good is honouring God, even 
if the person is an atheist or a follower of some other faith. And 
anyone who does evil is dishonouring God, even though that person may be 
  a devout Christian believer. God accepts both, in the infinite 
magnificence of grace.

The Jews had this as well as the Christians. "What does the Lord 
require, but to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God."


So what's the point of being Christian? You might as well ask what's the 
point of being a mathematician, since 2 and 2 will still mkae four even 
if you don't know it. If one has a deeper understanding of grace, then 
life can be richer and we can respond more fully. Not to our merit, of 
course. I am no better a person than the non-believer who lives a life 
of goodness. But perhaps, just perhaps, I may have access to the 
motherlode and can do what I do in conscious imitation of Christ. That 
seems reason enough for me.


Yes, we will all be judged. And that can be a very frightening concept. 
Until, that is, you remember who it is who will be doing the judging. If 
I had to judge myself objectively, I dare say I might consign myself to 
eternal death. But, thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through 
our Lord Jesus Christ.

-- 

Revd. Eric Potts

"Faith, hope and love abide, these three;
and the greatest of these is love."

Frederick Williams wrote:
> loiner2003 wrote:
>> ... They [the questions] are important. But Christians have
>> been wrestling with these issues over and again right from the
>> beginning; and we still don't have fixed answers to these big questions.
> 
> That in itself tells one something.
> 

Something about humility, I hope. ;-)

But also about the nature of reality. Life is change. The only time we 
don't change is when we are dead!

-- 

Revd. Eric Potts

"Faith, hope and love abide, these three;
and the greatest of these is love."

- .. --  Tim    .-. wrote:

>>> I believe those who deliberately reject God, have made a choice to be
>>> separated from God.
..
> I meant those who actively and positively turn against God.  That implies 
> that they at least believe God exists!

That's very rare, then, no?

-- 
Gareth McCaughan
sig under construc

Gareth McCaughan wrote:
> - .. --  Tim    .-. wrote:
>
>>>> I believe those who deliberately reject God, have made a choice to
>>>> be separated from God.
> ..
>> I meant those who actively and positively turn against God.  That
>> implies that they at least believe God exists!
>
> That's very rare, then, no?

Oh yes!  Very rare indeed, at least I think so, anyway.

Tim.

In message 
          Simon Dean  wrote:

> So there must be some redemption plan for people who never get to hear
> the message.

Yes. He's called the Holy Spirit - Who is at work in all men 
everywhere and at all times. Those who listen and respond will be 
saved, even if they never progress so far as to become Christians. 
Those who refuse to listen will be damned - not because they didn't 
become Christians, but because they rejected the light they had.

> But there must either be some benefit through hearing about Christ (Holy
> Spirit?), or some kind of consequence of rejecting Christ and choosing
> another path.

The benefit of hearing about Jesus is that you discover a new 
revelation of God's amazing love. If you deliberately reject 
Christ[1], however, then there is no other path.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

Note 1: Only God can judge whether a person has actually, in the full 
legal sense of the term, rejected Christ. For example, a person who 
rejects the Christ preached by Jeff could not be said to have rejected 
Christ, as Jeff's version is so distorted as to be unrecognisable.

-- 
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
|     Australia's premier archaeological magazine      |
|             http://www.diggingsonline.com            |
========================================================

In message 
          Simon Dean  wrote:

> Once you devote yourself to God and Christ in belief and repentence, the
> world is opened to you and you are drawn away from sin. But continuing
> to sin draws you away from Christ you think less of Christ. Faith is the
> key.

It's like falling in love with a girl: suddenly you no longer want to 
hang out with your mates like you used to and instead you long to 
spend every waking hour with her, doing the things that please her - 
and you act like that, not because you want to impress her but simply 
because you love her and, best of all, she loves you.

> But God is just and recognises that many people will be without the word
> so will judge those according to their actions.

In fact, there is a verse in Psalms which says precisely that: Psalm 
87:4-6 (though I don't believe that even such people are judged by 
their actions. Rather, their actions show whether they are in a 
relationship with God.)

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

-- 
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
|     Australia's premier archaeological magazine      |
|             http://www.diggingsonline.com            |
========================================================