On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
 wrote:

>On 30 Jun, 18:51, Mark Goodge 
>wrote:

>> Everyone is forgiven. Not everyone realises it.
>
>Everyone? For everything? If that's the case, why do we need churches?

To let people know that they are forgiven, in case they don't realise
it

"Nick Milton"  wrote in message 
news:4869f38a.90226641@news.zen.co.uk...
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
>  wrote:
>
>>On 30 Jun, 18:51, Mark Goodge 
>>wrote:
>>> Everyone is forgiven. Not everyone realises it.

No! they aren't.
Only those who have put on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion] 
into his saving name, *once* they believe in him, have any [1]forgivness for 
their sins.

"12 But *when* they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the 
kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men 
and women." Acts 8:12 (KJV)

>>Everyone? For everything? If that's the case, why do we need churches?

In the times of the Apostles breaking bread from house to house was more 
then adequate, or indeed in the case of the believing single Ethiopian, who 
would have be worshipping and breaking bread by himself, as he came from a 
different country were the Gospel had not yet been preached.

> To let people know that they are forgiven, in case they don't realise
> it

LOL!
Today, they give heretical comfort and solace to 'wilful' sinning homo and 
hetro fornicators, along with  divorced and remarried people living in the 
sin of adultery.
"9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10 And 
in the house the disciples asked him again of this matter. 11 And he saith 
unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth 
adultery against her: 12 and if she herself shall put away her husband, and 
marry another, she committeth adultery." Mark 10:9-12 (ASV)

Jeff...
[1] " And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy 
sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Acts 22:16 (KJV)

"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist UK.RC" <"broadband [remove] 
1234"@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
news:OPFak.80108$ft1.66999@newsfe14.ams2...
> "Nick Milton"  wrote in message 
> news:4869f38a.90226641@news.zen.co.uk...
>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On 30 Jun, 18:51, Mark Goodge 
>>>wrote:
>>>> Everyone is forgiven. Not everyone realises it.
>
> No! they aren't.
> Only those who have put on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion] 
> into his saving name, *once* they believe in him, have any [1]forgivness 
> for their sins.

That is obviously untrue since Jesus directly forgave people who were not 
told to be baptised. Your suggestion that a person who believes isn't 
forgiven until they are baptised is unsupported from scripture.

> "12 But *when* they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the 
> kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men 
> and women." Acts 8:12 (KJV)

Indeed so after they believed, at which point they were forgiven, they were 
baptised.

If you believe that only believers should be baptised then you are now 
claiming that a person can believe but be unforgiven.

Have you not read the gospels?

Phil

"Phil Saunders"  wrote in message 
news:L0Gak.120520$P83.15798@newsfe20.ams2...
> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist UK.RC" <"broadband [remove] 
> 1234"@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
> news:OPFak.80108$ft1.66999@newsfe14.ams2...
>> "Nick Milton"  wrote in message 
>> news:4869f38a.90226641@news.zen.co.uk...
>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 30 Jun, 18:51, Mark Goodge 
>>>>wrote:
>>>>> Everyone is forgiven. Not everyone realises it.
>>
>> No! they aren't.
>> Only those who have put on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion] 
>> into his saving name, *once* they believe in him, have any [1]forgivness 
>> for their sins.
>
> That is obviously untrue since Jesus directly forgave people who were not 
> told to be baptised.

I should have stated as I regularly do..... 'Today', only those who have put 
on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion]  into his saving name, 
*once* they believe in him, have any forgiveness
for their sins.

>Your suggestion that a person who believes isn't forgiven until they are 
>baptised is unsupported from scripture.

I find it hard to believe you stated that, Phil.
You must have missed the NT daily readings for 2/5/08 and 26/4/08.
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter 
and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"  38 Peter replied, 
"Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for 
the forgiveness of your sins. " Acts 2:37-38 (ANIV)


"4 And so John came, baptising in the desert region and preaching a baptism 
of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside 
and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they 
were baptised by him in the Jordan River." Mark 1:4-5 (ANIV)

> If you believe that only believers should be baptised then you are now 
> claiming that a person can believe but be unforgiven.

Yes! Today,  until a person is baptised *AFTER* they believe, they have no 
forgiveness for their sins.

Jeff...
"16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptised and wash your sins 
away, calling on his name.'
Acts 22:15-16 (ANIV)

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:04:17 +0100, 1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist UK.RC put finger to keyboard and typed:

>"Phil Saunders"  wrote in message 
>news:L0Gak.120520$P83.15798@newsfe20.ams2...
>> "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist UK.RC" <"broadband [remove] 
>> 1234"@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
>> news:OPFak.80108$ft1.66999@newsfe14.ams2...
>>> "Nick Milton"  wrote in message 
>>> news:4869f38a.90226641@news.zen.co.uk...
>>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:47:27 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 30 Jun, 18:51, Mark Goodge 
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>> Everyone is forgiven. Not everyone realises it.
>>>
>>> No! they aren't.
>>> Only those who have put on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion] 
>>> into his saving name, *once* they believe in him, have any [1]forgivness 
>>> for their sins.
>>
>> That is obviously untrue since Jesus directly forgave people who were not 
>> told to be baptised.
>
>I should have stated as I regularly do..... 'Today', only those who have put 
>on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion]  into his saving name, 
>*once* they believe in him, have any forgiveness
>for their sins.

So God has changed his mind since the days of the NT, then? What else
do we read about in the gospels that no longer applies to us?

Mark

"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message 
news:argn64135edart2gotqp08ifngu19hgsmv@news.markshouse.net...
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:04:17 +0100, 1st Century Apostolic
> Traditionalist UK.RC put finger to keyboard and typed:
>>I should have stated as I regularly do..... 'Today', only those who have 
>>put
>>on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion]  into his saving name,
>>*once* they believe in him, have any forgiveness
>>for their sins.
>
> So God has changed his mind since the days of the NT, then? What else
> do we read about in the gospels that no longer applies to us?

Nothing to do with any change of mind, just simple intelligent logic, while 
Jesus was on earth he did forgive certain people their sins, which is 
stated, but he is no longer down here on the earth to personally do so.

Thus the Apostles in Acts make it very clear that [now Jesus is away in 
heaven] a person must be baptised AFTER belief, to be forgiven  their sins.

"37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter
and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"  38 Peter replied,
"Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for
the forgiveness of your sins. " Acts 2:37-38 (ANIV)

"In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the 
resurrection of Christ; not because our bodies are washed clean by the water 
but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to 
cleanse our hearts from sin." 1 Peter 3:21 (TLB)
Thus those who have refused baptism AFTER they do believe, aren't.

Jeff...
"16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptised and wash your sins
away, calling on his name.'
Acts 22:15-16 (ANIV)

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:50:11 +0100, 1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist UK.RC put finger to keyboard and typed:

>"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message 
>news:argn64135edart2gotqp08ifngu19hgsmv@news.markshouse.net...
>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:04:17 +0100, 1st Century Apostolic
>> Traditionalist UK.RC put finger to keyboard and typed:
>>>I should have stated as I regularly do..... 'Today', only those who have 
>>>put
>>>on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion]  into his saving name,
>>>*once* they believe in him, have any forgiveness
>>>for their sins.
>>
>> So God has changed his mind since the days of the NT, then? What else
>> do we read about in the gospels that no longer applies to us?
>
>Nothing to do with any change of mind, just simple intelligent logic, while 
>Jesus was on earth he did forgive certain people their sins, which is 
>stated, but he is no longer down here on the earth to personally do so.

So are you saying that Christ no longer has the power to forgive sin?

>Thus the Apostles in Acts make it very clear that [now Jesus is away in 
>heaven] a person must be baptised AFTER belief, to be forgiven  their sins.

They must have changed their minds as well, then, because in Acts 13
Paul preaches in Pisidian Antioch and tells his listeners that they
have forgiveness through Jesus, but never suggests that it's
conditional on baptism. That's quite an oversight, really - what if
people had taken him at his word and only believed, rather than
believing and being baptised? Paul's omission of a few vital words
could have cost them their salvation. And again, in Acts 21, Paul
recounts his own encounter with the risen Christ who, equally
amazingly, forgot to tell Paul that he needed to ensure everyone he
preached to was baptised before they could be forgiven. Later, Paul
puts pen to paper (or, at least, his secretary does) and tells the
Ephesians that "in him we have redemption through his blood, the
forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace",
again without mentioning that this forgiveness only applies if you're
baptised. And it wasn't just a one-off slip of the pen - he writes
exactly the same thing to the Colossians! Heck, it's not just Paul -
James, John and the author of Hebrews also manage to mention
forgiveness without linking it to baptism. I mean, anyone reading
these passages might get the idea that baptism isn't actually
necessary for forgiveness. It's a good thing we've got Jeff to put us
right on this, rather than having to rely on all those long-dead
apostles, eh?

Mark

"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message
news:m8kn641kgvvrik1uje1uf5gvr5mufqd5cm@news.markshouse.net...
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:50:11 +0100, 1st Century Apostolic
> Traditionalist UK.RC put finger to keyboard and typed:
>
>>"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message
>>news:argn64135edart2gotqp08ifngu19hgsmv@news.markshouse.net...
>>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:04:17 +0100, 1st Century Apostolic
>>> Traditionalist UK.RC put finger to keyboard and typed:
>>>>I should have stated as I regularly do..... 'Today', only those who have
>>>>put
>>>>on Christ by being baptised [by water immersion]  into his saving name,
>>>>*once* they believe in him, have any forgiveness
>>>>for their sins.
>>>
>>> So God has changed his mind since the days of the NT, then? What else
>>> do we read about in the gospels that no longer applies to us?
>>
>>Nothing to do with any change of mind, just simple intelligent logic,
>>while
>>Jesus was on earth he did forgive certain people their sins, which is
>>stated, but he is no longer down here on the earth to personally do so.
>
> So are you saying that Christ no longer has the power to forgive sin?
>
>>Thus the Apostles in Acts make it very clear that [now Jesus is away in
>>heaven] a person must be baptised AFTER belief, to be forgiven  their
>>sins.
>
> They must have changed their minds as well, then, because in Acts 13
> Paul preaches in Pisidian Antioch and tells his listeners that they
> have forgiveness through Jesus, but never suggests that it's
> conditional on baptism.

Please think sensibly, Mark, only naughty rebellious children have to be
told every five minutes or on every page of a book just what is commanded or
required of them.
The teachings on the importance of baptism after belief for the forgiveness
of sins is inescapable for the spiritual discerning reader. But if you and
millions of others like you do not wish to accept it, or demand page after
page of baptismal instruction that may will be your funeral.

Meanwhile read yourself rich on the instructions regarding baptism form the
Scriptures...

Remember Christ himself  seriously warned Nicodemus, a man "Must be born of
Water" to enter the Kingdom of God.   " But Jesus answered, "I tell you the
truth, unless one is--- BORN FROM WATER ---and the Spirit, he cannot enter
God's kingdom."  John 3:5 (NCV)

Answers to Questions asked regarding *BAPTISM IN WATER.*

Question. What is the next step after believing the Gospel?

Answer. To be baptized in water. Mark 16:15, 16. Matthew 3:15-17
"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it
becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus,
when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the WATER: and, lo, the
heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a
dove, and lighting upon him:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is
my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.  Matt 3:15-17 (KJV)

Question. But was I not baptized in water when I was sprinkled as a child?

Answer. No,  that cannot be, as true Baptism is by Immersion. The Greek word
for "Baptize" means "to dip, plunge, immerse, submerge." Sprinkling does not
fulfils any of these things.

Question. Is it therefore necessary for me to be baptized again?

Answer. Seeing that sprinkling is not a scriptural baptism, you have never
been baptized. Even if you had been immersed as a baby, or as an unsaved
adult, that would not suffice, as "repentance" and "believing" must precede
the "baptizing." Mark 16 :16 ; Acts 2 : 38; 8 : 36, 37.

Question.Were babies never baptized in the New Testament?

Answer. There is not a single Scripture to say they were. Only believers
were baptized. Matt. 28 : 19 (R.V.) Acts 8:12, 37.

Question. What other Scriptures prove that Baptism is by Immersion?

Answer.In order to baptize the Eunuch, Philip led him "into the Water" and
he came up "out of the Water" (Acts 8:38), which would only be necessary
where immersion was practised.

Also, John the Baptist baptized in a part of the River where there was "MUCH
WATER" (John 3 : 23). "Much water" is not required to sprinkle people!
Baptism is, moreover, likened to "burial." (Rom. 6 4). Such a figure can
only bear one interpretation, viz.' that of immersion. (See also "planting"
in Rom. 6 : 5).

Question. But surely Baptism is quite an optional matter?

Answer. The commands of Christ can never be regarded as optional. They are
obligatory upon His children. And baptism is a COMMAND OF CHRIST. Matt.
28:19, 20. It is vain to say we love Christ if we are unwilling to keep His
commandments, for obedience is a proof of our love. (See John 14 :15, 21,
23).
Moreover, Christ Himself set us an example in this matter (Matt. 3 : 13-15),
Indeed, "To fulfill all righteousness" or "all that is right" and we are to
"follow His steps." (1 Peter 2 : 21).

Question. Did the Apostles enforce Baptism upon new converts?

Answer. Yes, we read that Peter "Commanded" converts to be baptized. Acts
10: 48; 2 : 38.

Question. What is the purpose of Baptism?

Answer. It is an open confession of one's faith in Christ-and "'The answer
of a good conscience toward God." 1 Pet. 3:21.
It is the symbolical washing away of sins (Acts 22:16), although without
true faith it can be a vain ceremony (as in the case of Simon-Acts 8:13,
21-23), seeing it is the blood of Christ which really washes away sins, Rev.
1: 5.

Question. Does Baptism take the place of The New Birth?

Answer. No outward ceremony can supersede the New Birth.- See Gal. 6, 15.
The New Birth does not even synchronize with the act of Immersion, it must
always precede it. The "water" in John 3 : 5 is symbolical of the "Word."
Eph. 5: 25, 26. We are born again of the Word of God. l Pet.1:23; Jam.1:18 ;
l Cor. 4:15.

Question. What Teaching is connected with Baptism?

Answer. In the first place, Baptism is a figure of death. Rom.6: 3, 5, 6, 8.
Now Christ, as our Representative, endured the actual baptism of death for
us. Luke 12: 50.
We acknowledge in Baptism that we deserve to die, being sinners; thus we die
with Christ symbolically. Rom. 6: 3.
Having died, we are "Buried with Christ in baptism". indicating  that the
old life which was put to death with Christ is never to be seen again.

Question. Does Baptism teach anything else?

Answer. Yes, having been identified with Christ in His death, we are also
identified with Him in His resurrection. Rom.6:4,5,8. CoI.2:12.
Therefore, we are .raised out of death into a new life with Christ. Gal. 2 :
20.
Being new creatures we are to live Christ-like lives. Gal. 3: 27.
Henceforth we are to walk in "newness of life." Rom. 6: 4.

Question. But what if I do not feel all this after being baptized?

Answer. We are to live by faith, not by feelings. Faith reckons it is so.
See Rom. 6 :11.
Being "risen with Christ" (Col. 3 1), we are to "seek those things which are
above." We are to "set our affection on things above, not on things on the
earth."

Question. Ought I to be baptized in the name of some particular Church?

Answer, We are not baptized into the name of any Church, or any great
Preacher. Baptism is "into the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit." Matt. 28:19. R.V. We are not to be disciples of men, however great
they may be, but followers of Christ.

Question. Who should baptize a believer?

Answer. According to the New Testament, baptism was performed by any
minister of the Church/Ecclesia (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 1: 14-17; Acts 8 : 12,
36), or by any fellow-believer. (Acts 9 :17, 18).

And one final question, After having been baptized, what should follow next?

Answer. A life totally dedicated to  Jesus, striving to obey all of his
commandments, including  all Apostolic doctrines and teachings either till
you die or He
comes again.

Then  a Catholic, Methodist, Moravian, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Reformed
Church,Church of England, United Church of Canada,Presbyterian, UCof C
(Congregational)  could certainly call themselves  a True Christian....But
any refusing to be properly baptised by being immersed in water, then  such
are still in an "Unwashed" state and  still in their sins....Christ sadly
being of no value to them.

Take a good look at another Bible reference to baptism by immersion:
Acts 22:16, "Arise and be baptized, and WASH AWAY thy sins..." Here is
evidence baptism washes away sins (God cleanses at the act of baptism).
Acts 10:48, "And he commanded them to be baptized..."

 A command is something where the choice is not yours (except to disobey the
command). Here is a clear case showing baptism is absolutely essential to
salvation.
Acts 2:38, "repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins..."

Consider this. Peter had just preached a sermon about Jesus to Jews who had
days before rejected him and consented to his death. Upon hearing Peter's
sermon they now believed he was the Son of God. At this point of their
belief they asked Peter and the other apostles, "what shall we do?"

Now they were obviously believers at the point immediately before they asked
the question. If they were not then believers, they would not have even
asked the question.

But after they believed, they asked what else to do. Peter gave them TWO
MORE THINGS to DO. Repent and be baptized. Why?
 "For the remission of sins." Can one be saved without remission of sins?

NO! We get remission of sins after we believe and upon repentance and
baptism (immersion in water).

The great commission? Read John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he
gave his onlybegotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish
but have everlasting life."

 This is commonly used by the "faith only" people to
prove faith is all one needs. Look, however at verse 5 in the same chapter.

Just before Jesus spoke of belief, he also said, "except a man be born of
WATER and of the Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God."
See comment earlier.

Now here is something Jesus said was required before one can enter the
kingdom of God.

What? Being born of water and of the Spirit. Jesus obviously was referring
to water baptism, and he obviously had not forgotten this when he spoke as
in 3:16. The faith in the Great Commission is an ACTIVE and OBEDIENT faith
in
which one will obey the form of doctrine Christ gave us including baptism.

Read Romans 6:17-18. Christians here had obeyed from the heart the "form of
doctrine" which was delivered. Just prior to that (verses 3-4) Paul
referred to being buried with Christ in baptism. A few moments later he
referred to this as a "form of doctrine" to be obeyed.

Yes, baptism is just as much a part of our salvation as is belief,
repentance, confession, grace, obedience.

I hope, Mark,  you may have required a greater knowledge of what is required
once a person believes in Christ.
I know what my response was, I couldn't wait to be baptised into Christ's
saving name.
And so it will be for everyone who truly from the heart wishes to obey the
first commanded after they believe.

 Jeff...
THOUGH in most things perfection is unattainable, it is best to aim at it.
Those who aim at it and persevere will come much nearer to it than those
whose laziness and despondency make them give it up as unattainable.

"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message
 >It's a good thing we've got Jeff to put us
>right on this,

Yes! Mark, it is a very good thing for all those who have a deep love for 
obedience to what Christ and the Apostles taught in the 1st Century and 
desire to hearken to their Inspired, God approved teachings.

>rather than having to rely on all those long-dead
>apostles, eh?

The point is, which somehow you fail to grasp, is that if you really 
hearkened to them, you would be with me arguing for the things that they 
earnestly taught and told the faithful of Christ to practise in their lives. 
And baptism is one of those commanded things.

"37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said 
unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we 
do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you 
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

No-one who loves righteousness would ever argue or infer that this passage 
has little or no effect because it is only stated once in the Acts and has 
it has not been repeated in each chapter,  it therefore has no real 
efficacy.
Such appalling reasoning is not of Christ's Spirit.

Jeff...
"23 For rebellion is as bad as the sin of
witchcraft, and stubbornness is as bad as worshiping idols." 1 Sam 15:22-23
(TLB)