"Monkey Mind"  ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:fts947$anq$1@news.albasani.net...
> "Nemo"  writes:
>
>> I was thinking that people in the world have grown exponentially over the
>> last hundred years.
>> This means that if we are currently six billion people and many of us are
>> young souls, so how can it possible that many of these souls may remember
>> many earlier lives?
>
> What actually happens is that advances in food production and hygiene
> enable more human beings to survive and procreate. There's actually
> need to fall back on hypothetical souls to explain human
> overpopulation when it can be traced back to simple, well-understood
> mechanisms of cause and effect:
>
>  more food, longer life expectation = more children.

Equal: more souls, less food for uman beings.
But, my question was more deep than this.
However, try to explain to myself, I could eventually think that animals may 
have a souls, even plants.

>> What is more likely that we will not re-incarnation, but rather that we 
>> all
>> draw from a single global consciousness our collective past memories.

> So you're positing a single collective soul with many incarnations
> instead of many souls. Big deal.

Why not.
Maybe it could be.

>> And, what about if this "collective" global consciousness also, would 
>> contain
>> all the knowledge and future experience? perhaps this could explain the 
>> fact
>> that occasionally born a person in the world that is able to push forward
>> humanity knowledge.

> And where did that collective soul learn the knowledge it imparts to
> us through exceptional rebirths?

Really don't know, maybe he is kind of cistern that contains all the 
knowledge.
Perhaps is what we image as a God cosciousness.

> Theories like yours, and reactions to them like mine were already
> handed around at the time of the Buddha. When questioned about which
> of them was right, he'd just proceed to teach the four noble truths,
> the middle way: the way of dealing skillfully with our actual
> experience, instead of speculations about world-views. The middle way
> has three applications: moral behavior (everyday life), concentration,
> and insight (both meditation).

> Cheers,
> Florian

Well, you right ...
I know that they are only merely speculations, philosophy and things like 
that,
however I can't stop my mind to think those things.


Greetings
Raymond

monkeymind wrote:

> "Nemo"  writes:

> > However, try to explain to myself, I could eventually think that
> > animals may have a souls, even plants.

> Sure, you could think that.  But for what purpose?

Eckhart Tolle suggests that the essence of all form is formlessness, the
unconditioned, and that contemplation of form --particularly the forms
of nature, animals and plants-- can be a vehicle to direct intuition of
that essence. If Nemo allows the thought that animals and plants may
have souls to kindle an interest in what underlies and gives rise to
form, that might be quite a useful purpose, mightn't it?


> > Well, you right ...  I know that they are only merely speculations,
> > philosophy and things like that, however I can't stop my mind to
> > think those things.

> Why stop your thoughts?  Do you try to stop your breathing?  Your
> circulation?
> You might want to try observing your thoughts...

It seems to me you're delivering a mixed message. Earlier you suggested
the speculative thoughts Nemo expressed were a waste of effort, implying
that he shouldn't indulge in them. Now you suggest he observe his
thoughts, but he can't very well do that without thinking them.

> . . .  have you observed how thoughts come and go, unbidden?

What do you mean by unbidden? Every thought has a genesis and a
function. However random and involuntary thoughts may seem to be, they
are always *doing* something; they are bidden by some unconscious end or
goal. For example, if Nemo finds his thoughts continually circling round
the ideas of souls and reincarnation, he might ask himself what it is
about those ideas which attract him. What is he offering to himself by
thinking them? Such a line of inquiry could lead to significant and
useful insights into the mind and self. That, at least, is what I
understand by the observation of thought.

brian mitchell  writes:

> Eckhart Tolle suggests that the essence of all form is formlessness,
> the unconditioned, and that contemplation of form --particularly the
> forms of nature, animals and plants-- can be a vehicle to direct
> intuition of that essence.

Sure, the path to the unconditioned is itself a conditioned thing.

For me, it is helpful to remember that the idea of the "unconditioned"
is still a conditioned thing, and doesn't exist in the way I imagine
it to be.  This way I don't get too excited about my opinions about
the unconditioned, yet still get to have a goal for my path.

> If Nemo allows the thought that animals and plants may have souls to
> kindle an interest in what underlies and gives rise to form, that
> might be quite a useful purpose, mightn't it?

His original post (which I snipped) was about population increase, and
where all those "young souls" might be coming from.  Sure, this kind
of speculation can lead to an interest in finding out about the nature
of human experience, but it's more likely to lead to questions such as
"which one of the bazillions of soul-theories out there is correct?",
which is not helpful at all.

> It seems to me you're delivering a mixed message. Earlier you
> suggested the speculative thoughts Nemo expressed were a waste of
> effort, implying that he shouldn't indulge in them. Now you suggest
> he observe his thoughts, but he can't very well do that without
> thinking them.

Observing thoughts: looking at them, recognizing them.

That's very different from following them, entering them, getting lost
in them, identifying with them, making them one's own, one's being.

Take the breath as a (limited) analogy: observing the breath, I don't
stop it, I don't force it, I don't "try to breathe": I try to find out
what it's like to breathe, what a breathing body is like.

> What do you mean by unbidden? Every thought has a genesis and a
> function. However random and involuntary thoughts may seem to be,
> they are always *doing* something; they are bidden by some
> unconscious end or goal.

Bad choice of words.  I meant voluntary choice.  I can't really make
myself think only certain things, and so on.  I'm not in control of my
thoughts in the way I would like to believe myself to be.

> For example, if Nemo finds his thoughts continually circling round
> the ideas of souls and reincarnation, he might ask himself what it
> is about those ideas which attract him. What is he offering to
> himself by thinking them? Such a line of inquiry could lead to
> significant and useful insights into the mind and self. That, at
> least, is what I understand by the observation of thought.

That's a more active approach than the meditation I was talking about,
but just as useful, something like a usenet discussion, actually.
Sometimes it helps to follow through with the implications, such as
the "particle souls" I sketched, or the question how a universal soul
would gain its knowledge.  As long as the focus stays on "oh, so this
is what it's like to think like that" and doesn't stray to "Yes! Yes!
This is IT!!!11!"  :)

Cheers,
Florian

-- 
Every man passes out of life as if he had just been born.
                                           -- Epicurus (Vatican Sayings 60)