In MsgID<kodhm.59538$wz2.27061@newsfe08.ams2> on Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:17:56
+0100, in uk.net.news.config, 'Colin Nelson' wrote:

>I have little or no interest in the software/program side 

You may find that computers don't really do very much without it :-)

Dave J.

Dave J. wrote:
> In MsgID<kodhm.59538$wz2.27061@newsfe08.ams2> on Fri, 14 Aug 2009
> 14:17:56 퍝, in uk.net.news.config, 'Colin Nelson' wrote:
> 
>> I have little or no interest in the software/program side
> 
> You may find that computers don't really do very much without it :-)
> 
> Dave J.
Our Fiat Punto wouldn't do much without the engine either and I have little or no interest in the engine.
Coat -->
<-- Door


-- 
Colin N.

Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... But the wind is mostly in your face

In MsgID<2bDhm.120258$Th1.98948@newsfe02.ams2> on Sat, 15 Aug 2009
19:38:48 +0100, in uk.net.news.config, 'Colin Nelson' wrote:

>
>Dave J. wrote:
>> In MsgID<kodhm.59538$wz2.27061@newsfe08.ams2> on Fri, 14 Aug 2009
>> 14:17:56 +0100, in uk.net.news.config, 'Colin Nelson' wrote:
>> 
>>> I have little or no interest in the software/program side
>> 
>> You may find that computers don't really do very much without it :-)
>> 
>> Dave J.
>Our Fiat Punto wouldn't do much without the engine either and I have 
>little or no interest in the engine.

But, in order to drive it to its best, you have to at least use an
unconscious model of how the engine works. The more automated the process
becomes (think gearboxes) the less difference having a good understanding
can make and the more every driver is 'levelled down' toward an average
that's just about good enough.

The better drivers (WRT engine control) are probably those with the more
accurate model of how the engine actually works. It's just a question of
how good you *want* to be. You can get by with no understanding at all,
but ability to get the best from the system is directly proportional to
knowledge of what's happening under the bonnet.

Dave J.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 13:51:29 +0100, Dave J. 
wrote:

>The better drivers (WRT engine control) are probably those with the more
>accurate model of how the engine actually works. It's just a question of
>how good you *want* to be. You can get by with no understanding at all,
>but ability to get the best from the system is directly proportional to
>knowledge of what's happening under the bonnet.

I am constantly amazed at the goods vehicle drivers who
double-declutch when changing up - this will have the precise opposite
of the desired effect.

Guy
-- 
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/urc | http://www.nohelmetlaw.org.uk/
"Nullius in Verba" - take no man's word for it.
 - attr. Horace, chosen by John Evelyn for the Royal Society

Dave J. wrote:
> In MsgID<2bDhm.120258$Th1.98948@newsfe02.ams2> on Sat, 15 Aug 2009
> 19:38:48 퍝, in uk.net.news.config, 'Colin Nelson' wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Dave J. wrote:
>>> In MsgID<kodhm.59538$wz2.27061@newsfe08.ams2> on Fri, 14 Aug 2009
>>> 14:17:56 퍝, in uk.net.news.config, 'Colin Nelson' wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I have little or no interest in the software/program side
>>> 
>>> You may find that computers don't really do very much without it :-)
>>> 
>>> Dave J.
>> Our Fiat Punto wouldn't do much without the engine either and I have
>> little or no interest in the engine.
> 
> But, in order to drive it to its best, you have to at least use an
> unconscious model of how the engine works. The more automated the
> process becomes (think gearboxes) the less difference having a good
> understanding can make and the more every driver is 'levelled down'
> toward an average that's just about good enough.
> 
> The better drivers (WRT engine control) are probably those with the
> more accurate model of how the engine actually works. It's just a
> question of how good you *want* to be. You can get by with no
> understanding at all, but ability to get the best from the system is
> directly proportional to knowledge of what's happening under the
> bonnet. 
> 
> Dave J.

I understand very well how engines and gearboxes work having spent many 'happy' hours in my youth stripping/repairing/'improving' various cars/motorbikes etc ( I don't think there were such things as even Amstrad computer type things about then), but whereas I used to enjoy 'driving' I now find that I look on a car as something that will get me (and my wife and son) from A to B with a minimum of fuss and bother - in reasonable comfort (this is a Punto!!!) at a reasonably economic cost. In other words 'it does the job' in a similar way that this old PC does (Windoze ME, OE, IE6 etc. etc.) .


-- 
Colin N.

Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... But the wind is mostly in your face

Wm... wrote:
> Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:38:48 <2bDhm.120258$Th1.98948@newsfe02.ams2>
> uk.net.news.config Colin Nelson 
> 
>> Our Fiat Punto wouldn't do much without the engine either and I have
>> little or no interest in the engine.
>> Coat -->
>> <-- Door
> 
> They're quite easy to take apart and put back together actually.
> 
> A punto engine, that is.

Indeed they are ... though getting some of the elektrikery/computer stuff
to behave after reassembly can be 'interesting' at times <smiles>

>
>  This thread is a lot more complicated.

Oh! I don't know ...

> 
> --
> Wm...
> Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days


-- 
Colin N.

Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... But the wind is mostly in your face

Molly Mockford wrote:
> At 10:38:22 on Sun, 16 Aug 2009, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
>  wrote in
> :
> 
>> I am constantly amazed at the goods vehicle drivers who
>> double-declutch when changing up - this will have the precise
>> opposite of the desired effect.
> 
> I don't see why?  The desired effect of double de-clutching is to
> match the engine speed to the gear about to be selected.  Double
> de-clutching when changing up could be defined as: into neutral -
> increase revs - into gear;  which is certainly a rather more
> difficult technique to master than changing down, which is simply:
> into neutral - revs drop - into gear 

I think that you have that the wrong way round. To change from a lower gear to
a higher one the engine speed needs to drop. To change from a higher gear to a lower one the engine speed needs to increase.

>(although the option is always
> there for: into neutral - brake - into gear).  However, in a large
> vehicle without synchromesh, it remains an essential skill,
> especially in situations where the driver wishes to skip a gear,
> surely? --
> Molly
> I don't speak for the Committee.  If I ever do, it will be made
> specifically clear.
> My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not be so for ever.

-- 
Colin N.

Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... But the wind is mostly in your face

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009, Molly Mockford <> wrote:
>  At 10:38:22 on Sun, 16 Aug 2009, "Just zis Guy, you know?" 
>  wrote in 
> :
> 
> >I am constantly amazed at the goods vehicle drivers who 
> >double-declutch when changing up - this will have the precise 
> >opposite of the desired effect.
> 
>  I don't see why?  The desired effect of double de-clutching is to 
>  match the engine speed to the gear about to be selected.

Yes, this is true.

>  Double de-clutching when changing up could be defined as: into 
>  neutral

OK so far,

> - increase revs -

and if changing up, in order to match the engine speed to the the gear 
about to be selected, do you want to increase engine revs, or decrease 
revs?

regards,   Ian SMith
-- 
  |\ /|      no .sig
  |o o|
  |/ \|

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 13:51:29 +0100, Dave J. 
> wrote:
> 
>> The better drivers (WRT engine control) are probably those with the more
>> accurate model of how the engine actually works. It's just a question of
>> how good you *want* to be. You can get by with no understanding at all,
>> but ability to get the best from the system is directly proportional to
>> knowledge of what's happening under the bonnet.
> 
> I am constantly amazed at the goods vehicle drivers who
> double-declutch when changing up - this will have the precise opposite
> of the desired effect.

The reason for double-declutching is the same whether changing up or 
down - to match the engine speed to the gearbox input speed.  The 
difference between up and down changes is that for an up-change you 
allow the engine to slow in between declutches, for a down-change you 
need to press the accelerator to speed the engine up.

-- 
Matt B

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:58:01 +0100, Molly Mockford
 wrote:

>I don't see why?  The desired effect of double de-clutching is to match 
>the engine speed to the gear about to be selected.  Double de-clutching 
>when changing up could be defined as: into neutral - increase revs - 
>into gear;  which is certainly a rather more difficult technique to 
>master than changing down, which is simply: into neutral - revs drop - 
>into gear (although the option is always there for: into neutral - brake 
>- into gear).  However, in a large vehicle without synchromesh, it 
>remains an essential skill, especially in situations where the driver 
>wishes to skip a gear, surely?

The point of dropping the clutch and spinning up is to match the gear
shaft speed to the higher engine revs as you change up.  If you are
changing down, rotational inertia does all you need.  If you have a
crash gearbox you may need to drop the clutch briefly without extra
revs but for a helical constant mesh gearbox even with completely
defective syncromesh it is not necessary and generally
counterproductive to double when changing up.  This I learned the hard
way, by driving a vehicle with failed syncromesh.  I then learned how
to repair the syncromesh...

Guy
-- 
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/urc | http://www.nohelmetlaw.org.uk/
"Nullius in Verba" - take no man's word for it.
 - attr. Horace, chosen by John Evelyn for the Royal Society