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date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:26:52 +0000,
group: uk.net.news.announce
back
2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
2ND REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:
Amend the UK Committee documents by replacing the Permanent Members
with a new class of "Infrastructure Members".
Changes from previous RFD:
The proposed wording changes have been reordered slightly so as to improve
the consistency of the resulting document.
The only significant and relevant issue raised during discussion of the
first RFD was the name for the new class of members. Therefore it is now
intended to offer two alternative terms at voting time if a consensus does
not emerge during discussion. However, it is hoped that such a consensus
will emerge.
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.MANAGEMENT ***
This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.
RATIONALE
The concept of "permanent member" carries much less relevance to UK Usenet
than it did when it was set up. The Committee feels that it would be better
expanded to cover any organisation involved, directly or indirectly, in the
provision of Usenet service. Therefore we are proposing replacing them by a
new class of Appointed Members or Infrastructure Members.
There are two types of people who might be appointed as Appointed or
Infrastructure Members. Firstly, there are people with direct knowledge of
the issues of providing Usenet service as opposed to simply being an
end-user. They wouldn't need to speak on behalf of, or represent, their
organisation within the committee, but they'd need to be willing and able
to use their influence within their organisation on behalf of the committee
where appropriate as well as being able to share their knowledge with the
committee. If they changed employer they could retain their membership,
though if their new position was not involved with Usenet then they would
have to resign.
The second type of person is an invited representative of an organisation,
an ISP, or a trade or similar association. Once nominated by that body they
would be members of themselves, and wouldn't be expected to speak formally
for the body, though of course they would be expected to use their
influence. The nominating body could withdraw their support, in which case
the member would have to resign unless they are eligible to remain in their
own right (after all, it's quite likely that the body would pick someone
involved in Usenet provision). The body would have no right to pick a
successor; the Committee could ask them to choose a replacement, or could
find a replacement on a different basis.
There is no "correct" division of places between these two types. The
Committee would be expected to judge on a case-by-case basis.
One of the reasons that the old "news admin" class of member was abolished
was that we could not get enough people willing to stand for election. This
is likely to remain the case; the people we are looking for will not
necessarily have had much involvement in Usenet politics. Therefore, as
with the present Permanent Members, we propose that the Committee
select candidates and make the initial approach, but use the existing
co-option process to provide the electorate with a veto.
In this rapidly changing industry, it is better for the Committee to
actively re-evaluate membership at regular intervals rather than waiting
for a member to resign - or simply drop out of contact. Equally, experience
with the existing Permanent membership shows us that nothing particularly
formal is necessary. Therefore we are proposing an annual review by the
Committee.
This proposal has been discussed by the Committee, none of whom objected to
the concept.
PROPOSAL
Make the following changes to the document titled "The UK Usenet Committee".
In the following proposal, the term "<new class>" will be replaced by
either "Appointed" or "Infrastructure" depending on the results of
discussion or any subsequent vote.
Under "Control", amend item 5 by changing "elected or permanent" to
"Elected or <new class>".
Under "Membership", delete item 1 ("Permanent Members"), renumber item 2
("Open Members") as item 1, and insert a new item 2 after it:
2. <new class> Members
The Committee shall include, as <new class> Members, up to 4
people who are involved in the provision of Usenet infrastructure
in the UK. Each <new class> Member shall be a person who plays a
technical or managerial role in propagating Usenet through the UK,
or in providing it to end users, or represents a company or
organisation, or an association which includes such companies or
organisations, that provides such services.
<new class> Members are appointed by the Committee as individuals
and not as nominees. As such, they do not lose eligibility simply
because they have changed employer. However, they shall resign if for
any reason they are no longer eligible for membership in this class
(unless the break in eligibility is clearly temporary). Where they were
appointed as a representative of a company or organisation, that
company or organisation can withdraw their support (making the person
no longer eligible on the basis of that representation) but are not
automatically entitled to nominate a replacement.
The term of service of an <new class> Member shall be indefinite.
Each year during January the elected members of the Committee shall
consider the current <new class> Members and may confirm their
appointment for another year. If the appointment of an <new class>
Member is not confirmed, their term shall end on the 31st January of
that year. Former <new class> Members, provided they are otherwise
eligible - are eligible for co-option at any future time.
In the first paragraph of "Co-opting Committee Members", replace
"retirement" by "retirement or resignation" and add after "annual election"
the words ", or any other cause".
In the fourth paragraph of "Co-opting Committee Members", replace
"the Open class" by "all classes".
Add a new paragraph at the end of "Co-opting Committee Members":
When the Committee decide not to confirm the appointment of an
<new class> Member, and if they have selected a replacement, the
Committee SHOULD issue an "Intention to Co-Opt" as soon as possible.
In this case, the resulting co-option takes effect on the 1st February
if that is later than the end of the 7 day notice period, and the
notice of intention SHALL state this.
Add a new section "Transition Arrangements" at the end of the document:
The initial <new class> Members shall be the Permanent Members as
of the date that this amendment takes effect. Until the end of
January 2008 they shall be deemed to be eligible to be <new class>
Members irrespective of their actual situation.
END PROPOSAL
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until November 9th) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
and is available from http://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html (the UK
Usenet website). Please refer to this document if you have any questions
about the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.management
uk.net.news.config
Proponent:
Clive D.W. Feather
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date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:26:52 +0000
author: Clive D.W. Feather
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:26:52
<rfd2-com-perm-memb-20071029182652$2773@gradwell.net>
uk.net.news.management Clive D. W. Feather
> 2ND REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
>Changes from previous RFD:
>
>The proposed wording changes have been reordered slightly so as to improve
>the consistency of the resulting document.
>
>The only significant and relevant issue raised during discussion of the
>first RFD was the name for the new class of members. Therefore it is now
>intended to offer two alternative terms at voting time if a consensus does
>not emerge during discussion. However, it is hoped that such a consensus
>will emerge.
"Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed with).
Further suggestions?
--
Wm ... Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:01:53 +0000
author: Wm...
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> 2ND REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
>
> This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following
> changes in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:
>
> Amend the UK Committee documents by replacing the Permanent Members
> with a new class of "Infrastructure Members".
It wasn't a particularly rivetting discussion first time around - discussing
it again seems remarkably pointless. Just how many times do you need to
re-arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic?
--
John Briggs
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:43:11 GMT
author: John Briggs
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
John Briggs wrote:
> Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>> 2ND REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
>>
>> This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following
>> changes in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:
>>
>> Amend the UK Committee documents by replacing the Permanent Members
>> with a new class of "Infrastructure Members".
>
> It wasn't a particularly rivetting discussion first time around -
> discussing it again seems remarkably pointless. Just how many times
> do you need to re-arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic?
There were objections that the discussion wasn't completed. So now you get
the chance.
And a good view of the iceberg.
--
kat
>^..^<
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:15:28 -0000
author: kat
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
In "Wm..." writes:
>"Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed with).
>Further suggestions?
"Appointed" is certainly an improvement on "Infrastructure", so much so
that I would be happy if we could reach consensus on that, and avoid a
2-choice vote.
As to "Open" vs "Elected", the proposal as it stands is to retain "Open".
AFAIAC the difference between them is at the noise level, so I would
suggest we leave it be - unless somebody feels strongly enough to want to
push "Elected" further.
As to the overall proposal, I am happy with it. It was a gaping hole in
the old system that the mechanism for choosing the Permanent members was
not given, although what the Committee has always done when the question
has arisen has been pretty much what the proposed rule says.
--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:35:28 GMT
author: Charles Lindsey
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
"Charles Lindsey" wrote in message
news:JqqB74.7F3@clerew.man.ac.uk...
> In "Wm..."
> writes:
>
>>"Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed with).
>
>>Further suggestions?
>
> "Appointed" is certainly an improvement on "Infrastructure", so much so
> that I would be happy if we could reach consensus on that, and avoid a
> 2-choice vote.
>
> As to "Open" vs "Elected", the proposal as it stands is to retain "Open".
> AFAIAC the difference between them is at the noise level, so I would
> suggest we leave it be - unless somebody feels strongly enough to want to
> push "Elected" further.
Seeing as we don't appear to be having any elections at the moment I don't
think that "Elected member" would be appropriate.
Peter Smyth
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:53:37 -0000
author: Peter Smyth
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:01:53 +0000, "Wm..."
wrote:
>"Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed with).
Although I like 'Infrastructure', my vote would be for 'Appointed'
purely on the grounds of understandability ;-)
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:53:19 +0000
author: .mother
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:35:28
uk.net.news.management Charles Lindsey
>As to "Open" vs "Elected", the proposal as it stands is to retain "Open".
>AFAIAC the difference between them is at the noise level, so I would
>suggest we leave it be - unless somebody feels strongly enough to want to
>push "Elected" further.
Ooops. I just meant "Appointed" instead of "Infrastructure" rather than
suggesting changing "Open" to "Elected".
--
Wm ... Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:43:04 +0000
author: Wm...
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:35:28 GMT, "Charles Lindsey"
wrote:
>"Appointed" is certainly an improvement on "Infrastructure", so much so
>that I would be happy if we could reach consensus on that, and avoid a
>2-choice vote.
Agree.
>As to "Open" vs "Elected", the proposal as it stands is to retain "Open".
>AFAIAC the difference between them is at the noise level, so I would
>suggest we leave it be - unless somebody feels strongly enough to want to
>push "Elected" further.
"Elected" is a far more intuitive pairing with "appointed",
making the difference crystal clear. "Open" could mean
anything to a newcomer.
--
John Bean
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:02:14 +0000
author: John Bean
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On 30 Oct 2007 John Bean wrote in
news:s33fi3pvroa9lbhls1i0vigm26pe8gsglv@4ax.com:
> "Elected" is a far more intuitive pairing with "appointed",
> making the difference crystal clear. "Open" could mean
> anything to a newcomer.
Not all open members are elected, some are coopted.
--
Graham Drabble
"Usenet is mostly just a geek entertainment system that far too many
people try to pretend as some type of "real" value to society."
Curt Welch - news.software.nntp
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:15:58 +0100
author: Graham Drabble
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:15:58 +0100, Graham Drabble
wrote:
>On 30 Oct 2007 John Bean wrote in
>news:s33fi3pvroa9lbhls1i0vigm26pe8gsglv@4ax.com:
>
>> "Elected" is a far more intuitive pairing with "appointed",
>> making the difference crystal clear. "Open" could mean
>> anything to a newcomer.
>
>Not all open members are elected, some are coopted.
Ok, I'll shut up and go up front to watch the iceberg
looming larger :-(
--
John Bean
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:40:26 +0000
author: John Bean
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:15:58 +0100, Graham Drabble
wrote:
>> "Elected" is a far more intuitive pairing with "appointed",
>> making the difference crystal clear. "Open" could mean
>> anything to a newcomer.
>
>Not all open members are elected, some are coopted.
No. There 'may' be, but there 'are not' any. It's totally irrelevant
in the current discussion as even were we to have any co-opted
members, they would have to stand for election at the next, election,
and would therefore become, if elected, 'elected'.
Possibly best not to dick around with these particular semantics,
convenient diversion tho' they may be, for risk of pissing off those
with a genuine interest in seeing this change progressed :-)
Anyone's free to RFD the change from co-opted to 'iceberg spotter' or
'here because we were desperate to get someone who could fly the Black
helicopter'.
--
His knife see rustic Labour dight, An cut you up wi ready slight,
Trenching your gushing entrails bright, Like onie ditch;
And then, O what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!
"Address to a Haggis" Rabbie Burns 1759 - 1796
date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:43:29 +0000
author: .mother
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On 2007-10-30, mother wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:01:53 +0000, "Wm..."
> wrote:
>
>>"Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed with).
>
> Although I like 'Infrastructure', my vote would be for 'Appointed'
> purely on the grounds of understandability ;-)
I prefer 'Infrastructure', but then I'm a geek. I wouldn't object to
'Appointed' if that were the only option, though (and since if it came to a
vote it would use Condorcet I'd put 'Appointed' as my second option so it
would still be a vote for the change).
Chris C
date: 1 Nov 2007 15:17:58 GMT
author: Chris Croughton
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Chris Croughton wrote:
> On 2007-10-30, mother wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:01:53 +0000, "Wm..."
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed
>>> with).
>>
>> Although I like 'Infrastructure', my vote would be for 'Appointed'
>> purely on the grounds of understandability ;-)
>
> I prefer 'Infrastructure', but then I'm a geek. I wouldn't object to
> 'Appointed' if that were the only option, though (and since if it
> came to a vote it would use Condorcet I'd put 'Appointed' as my
> second option so it would still be a vote for the change).
I am happy enough with both, with maybe a slight preference for "Appointed",
and would certainly vote for both/either over no change.
--
kat
>^..^<
date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:45:42 -0000
author: kat
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:17:58
uk.net.news.management Chris Croughton
>On 2007-10-30, mother wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:01:53 +0000, "Wm..."
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Elected" and "Appointed" members (not my idea but one I agreed with).
>>
>> Although I like 'Infrastructure', my vote would be for 'Appointed'
>> purely on the grounds of understandability ;-)
>
>I prefer 'Infrastructure', but then I'm a geek. I wouldn't object to
>'Appointed' if that were the only option, though (and since if it came to a
>vote it would use Condorcet I'd put 'Appointed' as my second option so it
>would still be a vote for the change).
I think most people commenting in this thread are for the change.
My argument against "Infrastructure" is that it needs explanation to a
lay person whereas "Appointed" does not.
"Appointed" says how those people got there; "Infrastructure" says who
they might be.
I put the above forward as a small criticism of those on the Komite that
want to make words more complicated than they need to be.
--
Wm ... Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days
date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:05:46 +0000
author: Wm...
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:05:46 +0000, "Wm..."
wrote:
>My argument against "Infrastructure" is that it needs explanation to a
>lay person whereas "Appointed" does not.
Yes.
>I put the above forward as a small criticism of those on the Komite that
>want to make words more complicated than they need to be.
As if... ;-)
--
John Bean
date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:51:49 +0000
author: John Bean
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
In article <P_vVi.1885$FQ2.1112@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, John Briggs
writes
>> 2ND REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
>It wasn't a particularly rivetting discussion first time around - discussing
>it again seems remarkably pointless.
Dats de rulz.
>Just how many times do you need to
>re-arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic?
As many times as necessary to get them all lined up?
See anything interesting?
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:
date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:08:29 +0000
author: Clive D. W. Feather
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:08:29 +0000, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:
>Dats de rulz.
Ah, so tis now; Clive D.J. Feather
inda house, init! Respec to da bredren... :-)
date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 21:22:10 +0000
author: .mother
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:22:10
uk.net.news.management . mother <nospam@nominet.name.invalid>
>On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:08:29 +0000, "Clive D. W. Feather"
> wrote:
>
>>Dats de rulz.
>
>Ah, so tis now; Clive D.J. Feather
>
>inda house, init! Respec to da bredren... :-)
MC mother: big it up for DJ Feather, let's hear it!
---
I'm in da house
I know da rulez
I'm gonna change 'em
you da foolz
it woz there all the time
da infrastructure
you just di'n't know the name m'fucka
<fx: some scratching>
yo' hear that scratch?
we ain't rash
we gotta mind to sort this trash
we aks agin
coz yo' can't win
we gonna change this fukka
coz we know iz rite
an' we ain't going down wit' out a fight
<chorus: repeat>
so hear it for the queen?
<fx: mike pointed at audience>
<fx: response> NO NO
Dat was da last thread
dis one clean
...
---
That was fun to write. I reckon a Village People version would be
amusing too but I can't work out which character kat would adopt.
--
Wm ... Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days
date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:16:07 +0000
author: Wm...
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:16:07 +0000, "Wm..."
wrote:
>That was fun to write.
And to read.
You do have your moments ;-)
date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:14:02 +0000
author: .mother
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:14:02
uk.net.news.management . mother <nospam@nominet.name.invalid>
>On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:16:07 +0000, "Wm..."
> wrote:
>
>>That was fun to write.
>
>And to read.
>
>You do have your moments ;-)
"taking care of a hierarchy for fun and profit" will be available soon
on Amazon. Or a good book shop. If you wait a week it will be available
on e-bay.
--
Wm ... Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days
date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 00:26:26 +0000
author: Wm...
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Wm... wrote:
> Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:14:02
> uk.net.news.management . mother <nospam@nominet.name.invalid>
>
>> On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:16:07 +0000, "Wm..."
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That was fun to write.
>>
>> And to read.
>>
>> You do have your moments ;-)
>
> "taking care of a hierarchy for fun and profit" will be available soon
> on Amazon. Or a good book shop. If you wait a week it will be
> available on e-bay.
Cut out the midle man - go straight to e-bay. :-)
--
kat
>^..^<
date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:18:00 -0000
author: kat
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
In article , Wm...
writes
>>On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:08:29 +0000, "Clive D. W. Feather"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Dats de rulz.
>>
>>Ah, so tis now; Clive D.J. Feather
>>
>>inda house, init! Respec to da bredren... :-)
>
>MC mother: big it up for DJ Feather, let's hear it!
>
>---
>I'm in da house
>I know da rulez
>I'm gonna change 'em
>you da foolz
>it woz there all the time
>da infrastructure
>you just di'n't know the name m'fucka
><fx: some scratching>
>yo' hear that scratch?
>we ain't rash
>we gotta mind to sort this trash
>we aks agin
>coz yo' can't win
>we gonna change this fukka
>coz we know iz rite
>an' we ain't going down wit' out a fight
><chorus: repeat>
>so hear it for the queen?
><fx: mike pointed at audience>
><fx: response> NO NO
>Dat was da last thread
>dis one clean
>...
You owe me a new laptop keyboard.
I'm impressed.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:
date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:28:46 +0000
author: Clive D. W. Feather
|
Re: 2nd RFD: Replace Committee Permanent Members with Infrastructure Members
Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:28:46 <lTMhy4heTuMHFwD$@romana.davros.org>
uk.net.news.management Clive D. W. Feather
>You owe me a new laptop keyboard.
Fair exchange if I buy someone else a USD100 laptop when that system
works?
>I'm impressed.
Hopefully you don't mean it says poiuytrewq across your forehead when
you look in the mirror.
---
The fun bit is no-one has suggested it wasn't an appropriate summary of
the discussion :)
I think you can go on with your (to others) evil plans for domination
with appropriate words.
--
Wm ... Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days
date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:17:28 +0000
author: Wm...
|
|
|